Clever unbelief

[Red Sky at Morning]

It has been something I have been thinking about for a while now, but I have struggled for a metaphor to explain it,

Imagine this section of the forum were a literary appreciation category. The idea behind its inception was the reading and understanding of various books.

All goes well till an argument develops over which letters of the alphabet are to be considered genuine. Suddenly all meaningful critique and analysis stall. Can we no longer trust words with “k” in them? Is the letter “x” laden with hidden risk?

It sounds absurd but in a way this kind of problem plagues Biblical discussions. Bible critics can sound very “clever” in their unbelief, but it’s actually spiritual illiteracy. While some attempts at discussion are no doubt worth a try, if someone persists in questioning the alphabet itself, progress will be slow at best.

This is why the Bible advises against trying to share the deeper things of God with those who reject Him. Who would try to interest an angry 5-year old in the works of Coleridge or Keats? All you would get back would be a torn book and an insult.

I don’t want to disparage the unbeliever too much though - we live in a culture that progressively hates the Christian message and there is no shortage of clever unbelievers available, from Ricky Gervais to Sheldon in “The Big Bang Theory” to tell people what they want to hear. In a culture that has had even a Biblical alphabet taken away, how does a person begin to learn to read?

Perhaps by painstakingly taking back each letter that has had doubt cast on it? It might take a long time! Alternatively (and here the metaphor is stretched to breaking) by getting to know the author of language itself and in knowing Him, begin to read at last.

 

[Dalit]

It has been something I have been thinking about for a while now, but I have struggled for a metaphor to explain it,

Imagine this section of the forum were a literary appreciation category. The idea behind its inception was the reading and understanding of various books.

All goes well till an argument develops over which letters of the alphabet are to be considered genuine. Suddenly all meaningful critique and analysis stall. Can we no longer trust words with “k” in them? Is the letter “x” laden with hidden risk?

It sounds absurd but in a way this kind of problem plagues Biblical discussions. Bible critics can sound very “clever” in their unbelief, but it’s actually spiritual illiteracy. While some attempts at discussion are no doubt worth a try, if someone persists in questioning the alphabet itself, progress will be slow at best.

This is why the Bible advises against trying to share the deeper things of God with those who reject Him. Who would try to interest an angry 5-year old in the works of Coleridge or Keats? All you would get back would be a torn book and an insult.

I don’t want to disparage the unbeliever too much though - we live in a culture that progressively hates the Christian message and there is no shortage of clever unbelievers available, from Ricky Gervais to Sheldon in “The Big Bang Theory” to tell people what they want to hear. In a culture that has had even a Biblical alphabet taken away, how does a person begin to learn to read?

Perhaps by painstakingly taking back each letter that has had doubt cast on it? It might take a long time! Alternatively (and here the metaphor is stretched to breaking) by getting to know the author of language itself and in knowing Him, begin to read at last.

This is rather thought provoking and I like it.

Was searching for a book club, even though my time doesn't really permit for a good investment in one presently, and found this:

Atheist & Christian Book Club

Respectfully Discussing Important Books from Both Perspectives

atheistchristianbookclub.com

This particular book club would probably have much of the same Sheldons and Rickys and perhaps nothing much original would get said by either side. Would it be casting pearls before swine?

By "x" do you mean how some supposedly de-converted Christians call themselves "X-tians" or how some Christians, myself included for a time, cringe at "Xmas" as being inappropriate or sacrilegious? I'm just brainstorming here and could be totally off-base. I found out what was meant by X-mas and no longer personally have a problem with it, but still cringe at "X-tians" and pray for those who consider themselves such. I hate that Derek Webb and Kevin Max consider themselves such. I hope Jesus intervenes and they accept His call to be true believers, which they may never have been before.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

By "x" do you mean how some supposedly de-converted Christians call themselves "X-tians" or how some Christians, myself included for a time, cringe at "Xmas" as being inappropriate or sacrilegious? I'm just brainstorming here and could be totally off-base. I found out what was meant by X-mas and no longer personally have a problem with it, but still cringe at "X-tians" and pray for those who consider themselves such. I hate that Derek Webb and Kevin Max consider themselves such. I hope Jesus intervenes and they accept His call to be true believers, which they may never have been before.

By mentioning particular letters, I didn’t want any connotations at all… the idea simply struck me that there are very much two kinds of people.

For someone who rejects the Bible itself, (as in my fictional alphabet skeptic example) it does no good to tell them what a particular passage says, because somewhere in the back of their mind, Bart Ehrman or Christopher Hitchens will be screaming “false” at them, and the seed fallen on the stony ground will be taken away by the birds of the air.

With stony ground, it first needs ploughing. Those lumps of rock might take some getting out, but, as in the case of many atheist-turned-Christians, the end result can be phenomenal.

If someone doesn’t want to believe because they cherish sin, there is nothing that can be done for them. If someone is a doubter who in their heart cries “help my unbelief”, those stones can be ploughed up and the Word can bear much fruit.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

the idea simply struck me that there are very much two kinds of people.
...
If someone doesn’t want to believe because they cherish sin, there is nothing that can be done for them. If someone is a doubter who in their heart cries “help my unbelief”, those stones can be ploughed up and the Word can bear much fruit.

This really spoke to me.

Today my husband and i were discussing how some of the "difficult" parts of the Bible can be reconciled, but in order to it is necessary to have an attitude of wanting to believe. While there is a logical explanation, someone who doesn't want to believe will easily brush it off.

The miracle is that i used to be the other kind of person (and yes, it was because at the time i cherished sin). With God the impossible is truly possible.

 

[Dalit]

This really spoke to me.

Today my husband and i were discussing how some of the "difficult" parts of the Bible can be reconciled, but in order to it is necessary to have an attitude of wanting to believe. While there is a logical explanation, someone who doesn't want to believe will easily brush it off.

The miracle is that i used to be the other kind of person (and yes, it was because at the time i cherished sin). With God the impossible is truly possible.

That part really struck me, too. And I also need to mortify sin. Am glad God hasn't given up on me.

 

[Lyfe]

People usually make judgments toward the validity of the biblical account with a false premise. It's almost as if it has to appeal to their logic. This is where so many go wrong, because God delights in and chooses the weak and low and foolish things. This is part of the creators personality. People are looking for a mathematical and scientific formula to find proof of God when God chose the foolishness of preaching the gospel to reveal himself. He chose an old and feeble Moses with poor speech to humiliate the false gods of Egypt. He chose the boy David with a slingshot to take down the champion Goliath. If this is the sort of personality that God has then why should we be looking for CERN to show us the creator. We will always be fools to the world.

 

[Lyfe]

It's why Jesus said that we will not enter into the kingdom of God unless we become as children. Trying to find God through logic won't work, because it's not the means in which God has chose to be found.

Job 23:8-9
English Standard Version
8 “Behold, I go forward, but he is not there,
and backward, but I do not perceive him;
9 on the left hand when he is working, I do not behold him;
he turns to the right hand, but I do not see him.

 

[Wigi]

By mentioning particular letters, I didn’t want any connotations at all… the idea simply struck me that there are very much two kinds of people.

For someone who rejects the Bible itself, (as in my fictional alphabet skeptic example) it does no good to tell them what a particular passage says, because somewhere in the back of their mind, Bart Ehrman or Christopher Hitchens will be screaming “false” at them, and the seed fallen on the stony ground will be taken away by the birds of the air.

With stony ground, it first needs ploughing. Those lumps of rock might take some getting out, but, as in the case of many atheist-turned-Christians, the end result can be phenomenal.

If someone doesn’t want to believe because they cherish sin, there is nothing that can be done for them. If someone is a doubter who in their heart cries “help my unbelief”, those stones can be ploughed up and the Word can bear much fruit.

An important thing to know from the perspective of clever unbeliever is to have in mind that for them whenever you believe, you're assumed and expected to run after confirmation bias without much evidence. Me as an unbeliever for example, I constantly was looking for an intellectually satisfying response I would put under huge scrutiny, paying close attention to semantics, making sure I would detect any biases I would gladly call out. What I thought was irritating it's often time the lack of self awareness whenever people would argument their faith, sometimes they would fail to come with an explanation void of logical fallacies which is something most people in unbelief don't have the patience to deal with, especially for the exigeant mind of an outspoken atheist for example.
I think a decisive factor many underestimate when they talk to people in unbelief, it's also that you are quite literally not experiencing the same reality. When one lack the frame of reference and the ground work basically the alphabet as you say to make one information audible, it's quite difficult to get a point across.
I take for example the role of the heart in faith, in the past I would argue "what do you mean by I can feel things with my heart? It pumps blood and that's all there is to know".
When the Bible says we're talking to spiritually dead and rebelling hearts that's not fancy terms, when you're deep into unbelief you're quite literally unable to feel and sense anything spiritually as if it cannot even possibly exist. Whether you want to call that blindness or spiritual illiteracy the result is pretty much that any words, any quotes, any arguments are hitting a thick brick wall plain and simple. Even in unbelief we often are filled with contradictions though, sometimes through difficulties I would talk to myself but I really was talking to God in fact although I didn't believe there was someone listening.

What I like in CS Lewis it's his ability to do the extra mile of conveying biblical principles in a elloquent manner unveiling the depht of the scripture in a way that's intellectually audible without the 'preachy' tone compelling me to give up my (former) worldview. Often times when I was still questioning faith, I was surprising myself thinking "wait a minute that makes much sense actually", it felt like I was at this odd place where I found myself afraid he could be right but couldn't accept what the answer entailed.
But at the end of the day, I think that's a hard exercise that not everyone has the skill/dedication/patience to do. I would argue it's not a wise thing to try for yourself because rebelling hearts needs to come to realise that they're robbing themselves from great and accessible things God grants to whoever ask with a simple and honest heart.

That's why personally I don't believe in debates per se because it doesn't reward the truth but the best sophists, those able to persuade through "gotcha" moments in exhausting arguments. All you can do is share information and plant seeds, it works.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That's why personally I don't believe in debates per se because it doesn't reward the truth but the best sophists, those able to persuade through "gotcha" moments in exhausting arguments. All you can do is share information and plant seeds, it works.

I couldn’t agree more!

p.s. talking seeds, the parable of the sower didn’t include a section where he stopped and removed every stone from the path, weeded the thistles or put bags of compost on the shallow ground!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

OK - here’s a strange one…

As I was thinking about the nature of interactions here and mentally contrasting them with the Parable of the Sower, the ending of an old film came to mind…

A bit of a spoiler, but Captain Ahab can’t let it go with Moby Dick, and it ends badly for him.

I don’t think God gives up on anyone and nobody is beyond God’s Grace if they would only turn around. The problem I have observed with various people is that they have been running away and rejecting the gospel for so long that the responses of rejection and the attacks in return are second nature. In repeatedly trying with such people, I think we (and I don’t leave myself out of this) are sometimes guilty of ignoring Jesus’s advice to His disciples and acting like Captain Ahab instead…

Luke 9

Sending Out the Twelve​

​

1Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. 2He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece. 4“Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.” 6So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.​

There is no advice to keep on trying with those who reject the gospel. Each of us have free will and the opportunity to exercise it. Not sharing the good news of Jesus would be a shame to a genuine Christian. Not receiving it will be the eternal regret of those who brush it off.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

People usually make judgments toward the validity of the biblical account with a false premise. It's almost as if it has to appeal to their logic.
...
Trying to find God through logic won't work

I have to respectfully disagree.

We all have different ways of processing information, and specially in this modern era when evolution is shoved down our throats since childhood, it can be hard to get out of the thinking/logic mindset. But just as how the evolution worldview can be disproved with logic, so can the existence of God be proved with logic. If logical-type people are not willing to put in the work and research that's another story.

I am very grateful for the existence of pastors who take this approach, as their methods speak to people who are more logically minded.

(More power to people who don't require logic, but I'm glad God has not forsaken those of us who do).

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I have to respectfully disagree.

We all have different ways of processing information, and specially in this modern era when evolution is shoved down our throats since childhood, it can be hard to get out of the thinking/logic mindset. But just as how the evolution worldview can be disproved with logic, so can the existence of God be proved with logic. If logical-type people are not willing to put in the work and research that's another story.

I am very grateful for the existence of pastors who take this approach, as their methods speak to people who are more logically minded.

(More power to people who don't require logic, but I'm glad God has not forsaken those of us who do).

Luke 9

“21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

I have heard this used as a metaphor for the fact that many people who reject God cover themselves with intellectual armour to prevent the Gospel reaching them. The armour varies from person to person but it comes down to the same thing. Lies cannot withstand truth. Sometimes you have to help others off with their psychological and intellectual armour (their emotional and logical reasons not to believe) before they can come to faith.

From my reading of C.S. Lewis, this is how it happened with him.

 

[Lyfe]

I have to respectfully disagree.

We all have different ways of processing information, and specially in this modern era when evolution is shoved down our throats since childhood, it can be hard to get out of the thinking/logic mindset. But just as how the evolution worldview can be disproved with logic, so can the existence of God be proved with logic. If logical-type people are not willing to put in the work and research that's another story.

I am very grateful for the existence of pastors who take this approach, as their methods speak to people who are more logically minded.

(More power to people who don't require logic, but I'm glad God has not forsaken those of us who do).

I agree that there is allot of fascinating science that points to an intelligent designer. It definitely has some value, but I think we stray from God's intended way to reach a person when we rely on it or convince ourselves it has the ability to give a person the light they require to see their need for Christ. God's way has always been the preaching of Christ crucified and that was enough. Paul didn't preach according to human wisdom or intelligence, but it was the power of God bringing people into the kingdom of heaven.

We all came to Christ not necessarily, because we were intellectually convinced at some point and time, but rather because the holy spirit convicted us that we needed him.

You can give a person all the information corroborating the biblical account, but it doesn't have the power to convert someone who is controlled by the powers of sin and Satan.

God uses his word(living and active). I think we have invested too much in apologetics and as a result have strayed from God's intended way. We try and do things our way.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I agree that there is allot of fascinating science that points to an intelligent designer. It definitely has some value, but I think we stray from God's intended way to reach a person when we rely on it or convince ourselves it has the ability to give a person the light they require to see their need for Christ. God's way has always been the preaching of Christ crucified and that was enough. Paul didn't preach according to human wisdom or intelligence, but it was the power of God bringing people into the kingdom of heaven.

We all came to Christ not necessarily, because we were intellectually convinced at some point and time, but rather because the holy spirit convicted us that we needed him.

You can give a person all the information corroborating the biblical account, but it doesn't have the power to convert someone who is controlled by the powers of sin and Satan.

God uses his word(living and active). I think we have invested too much in apologetics and as a result have strayed from God's intended way. We try and do things our way.

I can see your point. All the logic in the world will not convince someone who is determined to disbelieve no matter what.

I guess the way i see it, for logic-based people, God works on the person's heart and logic allows their brain to follow. But sometimes that little bit on logic could be the nudge they needed to cry out to God, to realize they needed Him. I just don't believe God limits His methods. For example, the Bible says faith comes by hearing, yet those who are deaf can still have faith. Or those who were prompted by the holy spirit to begin reading the Bible before even hearing the gospel preached.

Regardless, I've just been very grateful that God had me be born during a time when all these resources (and literacy) are free and available.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I agree that there is allot of fascinating science that points to an intelligent designer. It definitely has some value, but I think we stray from God's intended way to reach a person when we rely on it or convince ourselves it has the ability to give a person the light they require to see their need for Christ. God's way has always been the preaching of Christ crucified and that was enough. Paul didn't preach according to human wisdom or intelligence, but it was the power of God bringing people into the kingdom of heaven.

We all came to Christ not necessarily, because we were intellectually convinced at some point and time, but rather because the holy spirit convicted us that we needed him.

You can give a person all the information corroborating the biblical account, but it doesn't have the power to convert someone who is controlled by the powers of sin and Satan.

God uses his word(living and active). I think we have invested too much in apologetics and as a result have strayed from God's intended way. We try and do things our way.

The way I picture it, you could never get a car to take you into space, but you could drive to the launch pad.

It’s not so much that intellect can lead you to faith, but that intellectual strongholds can keep you from it.

I have personally found the study of prophecy (both fulfilled and pending), biblical archeology and especially origins science compelling reasons for faith. I would find it intellectually hard not to believe now.

 

[Lyfe]

The way I picture it, you could never get a car to take you into space, but you could drive to the launch pad.

It’s not so much that intellect can lead you to faith, but that intellectual strongholds can keep you from it.

I have personally found the study of prophecy (both fulfilled and pending), biblical archeology and especially origins science compelling reasons for faith. I would find it intellectually hard not to believe now.

I suppose it's all as the spirit leads. I think of how Paul said he became all things in order that he would be more relatable.

To the weak I became [as the] weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means [in any and every way] save some [by leading them to faith in Jesus Christ]. 1 Corinthians 9:22 Amplified Bible

 

[JoChris]

There is a very clear passage from the apostle Paul that addresses "clever unbelief" well [Non-Jews are Gentiles]:
Full passage: 1 Corinthians 1:17-31



Only those who are born again can be known as "the called". To the modern mind a lot of the bible does not make sense for many different reasons. When a person comes faith in Jesus [via believing the Gospel] they are born again.

Even now when I read the bible I see things that make sense suddenly that seemed confusing and contradictory earlier. The closer a Christian gets to God, the understanding of God's Word should get clearer.