Church Taken Out Pre-wrath

[UnderAlienControl]

That was a nice treatise RA. John Hagee preaches that planes will fall out of the sky and cars will crash everywhere because the operators of said conveyances will just abruptly disappear. As for Revelations, I've studied it as well. But ya know, there are plenty of theologians out there who argue that it wasn't even written about our times? Rather, it was written about Nero and the suffering he would cause. They are on TV all the time being interviewed for shows about prophecy and I've heard more than one take this stance.

Religion, to me at least, is starting to look a lot like Facebook. A platform that looks like it's there to connect and pull people together, but in the end is just used as a mechanism to tear more people apart. And I'm saying that without a drop of cynicism. It's just what man does. He divides more than he unites. Even when he is united, he is divided from some group. Tribes and such. It's just in his nature.

There are schisms in religions and about religions, that it seems to be lost what it was all about in the first place. To sum up, I guess the point is that nobody on Earth ever agreed on religion (since there's a million variations of it), and the ones that did agree on a point formed into...tribes. Who meet at the church. On SUNday. Or SATURNday. And now, we've got Babylon rising, too..
https://bible.org/seriespage/24-judgment-religious-babylon-rev-171-18

 

[rainerann]

That was a nice treatise RA. John Hagee preaches that planes will fall out of the sky and cars will crash everywhere because the operators of said conveyances will just abruptly disappear. As for Revelations, I've studied it as well. But ya know, there are plenty of theologians out there who argue that it wasn't even written about our times? Rather, it was written about Nero and the suffering he would cause. They are on TV all the time being interviewed for shows about prophecy and I've heard more than one take this stance. Religion, to me at least is starting to look a lot like Facebook. A platform that looks like it's there to connect and pull people together, but in the end is just used as a mechanism to tear more people apart. And I'm saying that without a drop of cynicism. It's just what man does. He divides more than he unites. Even when he is united, he is divided from some group. Tribes and such. It's just in his nature. There are schisms in religions and about religion,s that it seems to be lost what it was all about in the first place. To sum up, I guess the point is that nobody on Earth ever agreed on religion (since there's a million variations ofthem), and the ones that did agree on a point formed into...tribes. Who meet at the church. On SUNday.

Not surprising that Hagee is also a major false teacher preaching that Christians should worship the Jews.

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith... In fact, trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." John Hagee.

I've heard arguments on preterism before too. Although, I think preterism is an earlier equivalent of rapture theory. Instead of dramatizing the end, it downplays it by saying it already happened in the hopes Christianity would disappear and people would lose interest.

 

[Thunderian]

@rainerann @UnderAlienControl

Please read the book that you can find for free at this website. http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Gray/Preface.htm

It spells out the pre-Tribulation view, and goes through the argument and the proof scripture in great detail. You won't find the names John Hagee or John Darby anywhere in it. You may think you understand the pre-trib doctrine, but you seem to be confusing the actual Rapture doctrine with the pseudo-doctrinal beliefs of Hagee and his followers. I would love to debate and discuss the Rapture with you, but I don't want to keep explaining and re-explaining my scriptural view.

 

[UnderAlienControl]

@rainerann @UnderAlienControl
Please read the book that you can find for free at this website. http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Gray/Preface.htm
It spells out the pre-Tribulation view, and goes through the argument and the proof scripture in great detail. You won't find the names John Hagee or John Darby anywhere in it. You may think you understand the pre-trib doctrine, but you seem to be confusing the actual Rapture doctrine with the pseudo-doctrinal beliefs of Hagee and his followers. I would love to debate and discuss the Rapture with you, but I don't want to keep explaining and re-explaining my scriptural view.

No offense taken. I'll look into it...

 

[rainerann]

@rainerann @UnderAlienControl

Please read the book that you can find for free at this website. http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Gray/Preface.htm

It spells out the pre-Tribulation view, and goes through the argument and the proof scripture in great detail. You won't find the names John Hagee or John Darby anywhere in it. You may think you understand the pre-trib doctrine, but you seem to be confusing the actual Rapture doctrine with the pseudo-doctrinal beliefs of Hagee and his followers. I would love to debate and discuss the Rapture with you, but I don't want to keep explaining and re-explaining my scriptural view.

The problem with saying this is that the verses you use and arguments you present are exactly the same when it comes to pretrib rapture because this is where the theory is derived from no matter who it was you heard it from. I am guessing you didn't come up with it yourself. It is derived from these sources and it follows this same script every time. There is never anything new to gain from anyone who subscribes to the pretribulation rapture theory. The responses are often predictable. The rebuttals are predictable. The whole discussion supporting and opposing rapture theory is predictable.

I made a response already on the subject. If this is your response to what I've already included, then I am done with this discussion. I do not follow the pretribulation rapture scripting that can be found on every christian forum on the internet. I do not provide the scripted counter arguments to keep this going. There is nothing new to these discussions.

 

[llleopard]

OK, well, if you ever want to have a serious discussion about the Rapture doctrine, let me know.

I have been following all this about prophecy, rapture etc....and I don't think it is actually possible to have a proper discussion about it because you are all so incredibly stuck on it. I can't see any point even going there, because you will not look at other views with an open mind, as evidenced by the animosity toward anyone with a different viewpoint.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's a little bit like supporting different football teams in the same town!

I don't think anyone would change from a firmly held position based on forum discussions...

 

[llleopard]

It's a little bit like supporting different football teams in the same town!

I don't think anyone would change from a firmly held position based on forum discussions...

Which is a shame, because here would be as good a place as any to learn and grow. As I say, I was brought up Plymouth Brethren, and rapture theology was part of this, so I have been through the process of being introduced to new ideas, considering them with an open mind, and eventually reconstructing my faith. If people were more open to listening to different viewpoints instead of trying to smash their own through others, they might learn and grow.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Which is a shame, because here would be as good a place as any to learn and grow. As I say, I was brought up Plymouth Brethren, and rapture theology was part of this, so I have been through the process of being introduced to new ideas, considering them with an open mind, and eventually reconstructing my faith. If people were more open to listening to different viewpoints instead of trying to smash their own through others, they might learn and grow.

I would join in but I have had conversations before that have been a waste of typing! Of all events in history, the Rapture or absence thereof will be one over which we have the least control!!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Perhaps a less confrontational way of framing the discussion is to avoid attack others with either ad-hominem attacks on others who hold that view, or negative characterisations of that view.

Instead, how about if those who hold a well thought out perspective set out their own scriptural reasons for taking that view and leave it for others to freely review those interpretations?

 

[floss]

Deuteronomy 4
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;


2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (1)except there come a falling away first, and (2)that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Matthew 24 (Post-Tribby)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


HIS elect are the saves (those that are IN CHRIST)

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Colossians
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Rather than attempt to explain a full scriptural reason why I gravitate to a Pre-Trib view, I'm going to share a link...

http://www.pre-trib.org

It contains substantial debate coverage between Pre-Trib and pre-wrath off the home page...

The basis of belief of the writers of this site follows - clearly, those starting with different assumptions may come to different conclusions:

"We believe that the sixty-six, canonical books of the Old and New Testaments, alone and in their entirety, comprise the God-inspired Scriptures which, therefore, are inerrant in their autographs.

We believe the Bible should be interpreted normally, as with any other piece of sane literature, by a consistently literal hermeneutic which recognizes the clear usage of speech figures.

We believe that Christ will literally rapture His church prior to the 70th week of Daniel, followed by His glorious, premillennial arrival on the earth at least seven years later to set up His 1,000 year kingdom rule from Jerusalem over the earth.

We believe that God's plan for history demands a consistent distinction between national Israel and the church which includes an ongoing plan for national, ethnic Israel that culminates in Christ's millennial kingdom."
​

 

[floss]

I check the site briefly and It doesn't make sense that Jesus can come at any-moment when the Bible stated that won't happen until these condition are met:
(1)except there come a falling away first, and (2)that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[grateful servant]

I check the site briefly and It doesn't make sense that Jesus can come at any-moment when the Bible stated that won't happen until these condition are met:
(1)except there come a falling away first, and (2)that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

man of sin son of perdition is the anti christ. Jesus returns when the dajjal comes out.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

man of sin son of perdition is the anti christ. Jesus returns when the dajjal comes out.

Not in the King James Version ;-)

 

[Thunderian]

I have been following all this about prophecy, rapture etc....and I don't think it is actually possible to have a proper discussion about it because you are all so incredibly stuck on it. I can't see any point even going there, because you will not look at other views with an open mind, as evidenced by the animosity toward anyone with a different viewpoint.

I don't care what rapture view a person holds. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I love the subject and have had great discussions with people of opposing viewpoints.

I don't really care for Hagee's name being introduced so often as an attack on the pre-trib view. It's not relevant to what the scripture says, and the repeated accusation that the Rapture was invented by Darby is an ignorant untruth. If that's what stands as argument against the pre-trib view -- an American Zionist huckster, and a lie -- I am happy with my beliefs and will continue to be until someone shows me from scripture where it is that I have it wrong. But we don't see much Bible introduced against the pre-trib view, and we don't see any in support of any other view.

 

[Thunderian]

I check the site briefly and It doesn't make sense that Jesus can come at any-moment when the Bible stated that won't happen until these condition are met:
(1)except there come a falling away first, and (2)that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I want to post that verse in context and then ask a couple questions.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Do you believe that the coming of Jesus in verse one is taking place at the same time as our gathering to him?

What is the day of Christ?

 

[Thunderian]

If my tone or style has offended, and it probably has, I am truly sorry. I need to remind myself to post with care. I sometimes forget that there are real people on the other end. I will try and be nicer.

 

[rainerann]

I want to post that verse in context and then ask a couple questions.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Do you believe that the coming of Jesus in verse one is taking place at the same time as our gathering to him?

What is the day of Christ?

That one is completely easy and answered within the same chapter.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.

Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

So, the day of Christ is when the rider called faithful and true with eyes like a fiery flame and many crowns comes and defeats the beast (Revelation 19). This is followed by gathering those who did not take the mark or worship the beast in Revelation 20.

So this isn't taking place at the same time, but it is clearly saying that the gathering that takes places has to take place after the man of lawlessness is revealed and after he sits in God's sanctuary and after he publicizes that he is God. This passage is saying that all of the above concerning the man of lawlessness will happen before they will be gathered. It is saying that this is the sign that you are looking for in order to have an idea of when the day the gathering will take place.

Finally, the gathering will clearly happen after the Lord comes and destroys the beast, not before. It is clearly saying that the ones who are gathered will witness the revealing of the man of lawlessness making pretribulation rapture impossible because that is the function of the rapture- to remove believers from witnessing this event.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think a lot of confusion occurs over the idiom "The Day of the Lord".

I guess the question is - what is it? when does it begin? Is it a single day? If not, what?