Church Taken Out Pre-wrath

colson

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@colson

Thanks for typing everything out. I followed pretty well but you would just need to tell the two times in the 7 year timeline where you believe the church is taken (whether the church, great multitude or 144,000).
You said,

So here are my questions. You said
Where do these dates coincide during the 7 year timeline? Who exactly is taken out and at what specific time?
I understand how you break down the seals and trumpets but without an easier timeline to follow I just can't tell you what I think.

For the record I believe the timing of the church being taken out is key. Tribulation is going to happen. But when God takes out his church is paramount.
Thanks.
One can only go by Revelation where the 2 'taking out's happen: at the 6th Seal and after the 2nd Woe/ 6th Trumpet. And both are 'pre-wrath', right? Wrath announced at the 6th Seal, then the 7 bowls of wrath/ aka the 7th Trumpet. Right?

so it is fair to say the 1st 'taking out' is 'pre-trib' by some 'pre-trib' standards (but people are never 'whisked away', unless God is sucking them up in a tornado or nuclear blast).

There is no '7 year timeline'. Why? Because the false christs are using the book of Revelation as part of its 'lying signs and wonders'. And God has already compensated for this/ the book of Revelation was always written in a way to incorporate Satan lying. Like a hall of mirrors that need to end at some point.

There is/ are 7 year covenant(s). But no '7 year tribulation'. Here is the basic framework: 1290 days + 1335 days as per Daniel 12
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

If you think it is all said and done at the 1335th day, I think you will be disappointed. Again, prophecy is vague so that if a false christ wants to use it, then it is incorporated. Basically, at that point on the 1335th day starts the real demonic entity. Because it is 1290 days + 1335 days, not 1335 days. That's part of the 'great deception'.

Here's the trick: 1290 + 1335 days = 42 lunar months + 5 lunar months + 42 lunar months

the beast from the sea starts, then 5 months later, the decoy false prophet will start
after 42 months, the beast from the sea is destroyed
5 months later, the real false prophet starts for 42 months
Day 1, sacrifices start (possibly already having a statue on the Western wall that is not enforced to be worshipped until 1290 days later)
During this timeframe, the decoy temple is trampled by Gentiles/ either Muslims or the UN
Day 1290, the abomination statue is enforced to be worshiped
45 days of evil sacrifices, then the 'regular burnt offering' is stopped (1st it was 'good', then for a bit it was devoted to an idol specifically)
1335th day, people are 'blessed' - the sacrifices have stopped altogether
Start the next 1290 days where the 'sacrifices have stopped until the abomination is set up" (notice the wording in Dan 12:11 - it doesn't say exactly, 'this then that', it more says, 'these 2 events, 1290 days'.)

Just like Christianity is a 'living temple', Satan will have his own 'living temple' with no overt animal sacrifices. the Gentiles will trample this 'temple' for 1260 days' (either Muslims or the UN or ?)​

If you start the sacrifices on Yom Kippur, then it works out that the 1290 + 1335 days end on 15 Kislev, the traditional date for the abomination set up, then there are '10 days of tribulation' that end with there being sacrifices to the idol on 25 Kislev (Christmas 2024).
 

colson

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Yes I believe in the seventh trumpet. I also want to say I read both all of your posts before this one and am still considering some of the things you said.


I differ from you here. I don't believe we are taken out. If you want my teaching on the subject you can find it here (I also have VC's permission to source my work on here as long as it's part of a legit discussion and not me creating threads spamming my work :)):

http://www.sallybook.com/interpretations/vol3/WhosEnd.htm


Interesting, but my problem here is I differ with your interpretation of revelation.

This doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain it again?


Very confusing to say the least. Interesting but confusing and I must confess with my extensive reading of Daniel and the book of Revelation I'm not seeing it. IMO when the book of Revelation is finally explained it is going to be a pretty easy explanation (almost like the timeline I provided). I believe God wrote it in a way that it will be near impossible to interpret yet when it is, it will make a lot of sense in a straightforward way. Just like when Jesus came, the pharisees missed him because they made the prophecies too complicated. They were very straightforward. I believe the book of revelation will be similar. Once correctly interpreted it will be easy to see.

Thanks for the comments.
I'll give a more detailed answer later, but for now just some simple points:

why doesn't Revelation say, 'antichrist' and false prophet? It says: beast and false prophet. http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/19-20.htm
That's because 'beast' means 'king' and/ or 'kingdom' as per Dan 7.

the 'king' meaning of 'beast' will be killed/ removed after 42 months. the 'beast' kingdom will live on, with a new false prophet. this new false prophet would be imitating, from your POV, Jesus coming on the 1335th day, but really we've got another 1290 days ahead.

Let's say the 6th Seal is this Sept 2017. Let's say that people think that this is the 'end of the world', then we would 'read Revelation' as starting at the 'Trumpets': start the decoy 5 months of the 5th Trumpet which would begin and possibly end on Ash Wednesday 2018/ Feb 14, 2018, thus the Pope would be a decoy false prophet, saying everyone, we should worship ... let's say Trump (Catholic cross, decoy mark of the beast)
 

llleopard

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I know[/QUOTE
I read it. :) I don't follow everything you say here, but it is so nice to have someone else say upfront that there is no 'whisked away rapture' in the Bible. I grew up Brethren ( ie church founded on many of Darby's ideas) and was taught the rapture as gospel....but the more I have read the Bible and encountered God, the more I find the whole idea doesn't make sense when compared to everything else I have learned about God. I would LIKE to believe it.....but I just can't any more. :)
 

UnderAlienControl

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I think if you are going to include the Rapture, which was made up by John Darby in 1831 and the Western Wall which is nothing more than the remaining wall of a Roman fort then you're arguments are not sound. Based on these beliefs, you may have a valid argument, but you do not have a sound argument. Is your argument enough to convince a reasonable agnostic? I think not. I consider myself a Christian not in that I go to church every Sunday, but I try my best to not screw people over and rather try to help them out as Christ said to do. Point being, I'm already inclined to believe, much more than the "reasonable agnostic", and still I don't buy the argument because of flawed premises.

In fact, in the wicked world that we are living in right now with all it's devious machinations, I'm just as inclined to believe a plot or conspiracy by which under guise of "the Rapture" Christians (as well as hostile witnesses to the "disappearing") could be "disappeared" by the millions into Walmart/Fema centers never to be seen again. And, with control of the mass media, rendered as "Raptured". Especially after some type of "event", maybe EMP related where communication is made more difficult and tightly controlled.. Not saying, just saying. The skeptical hypothesis, if you will. But, If you don't think this is possible then keep in mind that after the Bolsheviks took over they wiped out 10's of millions of people in the gulags. Shakespeare once said, "First, we kill all the lawyers." I think TPTB would like to change that phrase to "First, we kill all the historians..."

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"I love strong opponents! It's such fun to break their backs! said the Leningrad interrogator Shitov. And if your opponent (e.g. your prisoner) is so strong that he refuses to give in, all your methods have failed and you are in a rage? Then, don't control your fury! It's tremendously satisfying, that outburst! Let your anger have its way; don't set any bounds to it. Don't hold yourself back! That's when interrogators spit in the open mouth of the accused! And shove his face into a full toilet! That's the state of mind in which they drag Christian believers around by their hair. Or urinate in a kneeling prisoner's face! After such a storm of fury you feel yourself a real honest-to-God man!" —Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The Gulag Archipelago

Order No. 171, dated 11th June 1921 and signed by Vladimir Ovseenko shows clearly the sorts of methods used to “pacify” Tambov Province. It stipulated:


    • Shoot on sight any citizens who refuse to give their names.
    • District and Regional Political Commissions are hereby authorized to pronounce sentence on any village where arms are being hidden, and to arrest hostages and shoot them if the whereabouts of the arms are not revealed.
    • Wherever arms are found, execute immediately the eldest son in the family.
    • Any family that has harboured a bandit is to be arrested and deported from the province, their possessions are to be seized, and the eldest son is to be executed immediately.
    • Any families sheltering other families who have harboured bandits are to be punished in the same manner, and their eldest son is to be shot.
    • In the event that bandit families have fled, their possessions are to be redistributed among peasants who are loyal to the Soviet (Bolshevik) regime, and their houses are to be burned or demolished.
    • These orders are to be carried out rigorously and without mercy
In village after village the women and elderly were savagely beaten, the women raped then along with the children removed to concentration camps. A prelude to the Gulag. Conditions in these camps was intolerable: typhus and cholera were endemic, and the half-naked prisoners lacked even basic requirements. A conservative estimate states that at least 50,000 were interned with the mortality rate in the camps at least 20 percent a month. Ovseenko also signed an order, dated 12th June 1921, concerning the resistance fighters stipulating that:

“The forests where the bandits are hiding are to be cleared by the use of poison gas. This must be carefully calculated, so that the layer of gas penetrates the forests and kills everyone hiding there.”

On the 19th October Lenin wrote to Felix Dzerzhinsky saying “It is vital that this movement (Tambov) be crushed as swiftly as possible in the most exemplary fashion: we must be more energetic than this.” Thus hunger became the most powerful weapon imaginable as areas of high grain seizure suffered most horrifically due to their resistance. A horrific cycle of crucifixions, scalpings and other “bestial tortures” ensued. Shootings by the Jewish Cheka were common place, even children caught eating confiscated grain were shot as ‘traitors’ to the Boshevik state, and there were those Cheka who cut open their victim’s stomach,pulled out a length of small intestine, nailed it to a telegraph pole, and with a whip forced the victim to run circles around the pole until the whole intestine became unravelled.

To emphasise
Trotsky's utter disdain for the ethnic European people, in 1921 messengers who represented the starving farmers asked him for help he said “You are starving? This is not famine yet! When your women start eating their children then you may come and say we are starving”.

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' --
George Santayana -- Philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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The Trinity is a doctrine the Bible clearly supports though it is harder to find the whole concept clearly expressed in one passage. In the same way, the Rapture is wrapped up in the "mystery" of the Church which is not fully expressed till after the Gospels, and began at Pentecost. As a consequence an understanding of the Rapture is primarily gathered from the epistles.

This might make sense to some...
 

UnderAlienControl

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby


Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]


someone like you brought it up.
Both great works of propaganda. Don't even get me started on Cyrus Scofield and his propagandized "footnoted" Bible. And, while we are on the subject what would "someone like me" be like in you're mind, T? Pray tell....
(<>..<>)
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Various people in Church history can take credit for 'popularising' certain doctrines over the years...

That alone is not reason for dismissal - Luther popularised salvation by grace alone by faith alone... he also made some mistakes later in life but that in no way diminishes his ideas...
 

UnderAlienControl

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Martin Luther -- "On The Jews & Their Lies" (1543 ad-65,000 words) <------- You mean this "mistake"? And Cyrus Scofield was an ex-cop, alchoholic wife beater who I guess we should all listen to, right? A convenient fool put out front to further interests that are always hidden in the rear. The Scofield Bible is nothing more than a huge work of Zionism which is taught in mainly Southern theology which is why the South teems with "Christian zionists" (a completely oxymoronic term -emphasis on "moronic") including but in no way limited to John Hagee-the biggest false prophet and deceiver bellowing pro-Israel 'Christian" rhetoric today. How about do some research and then get at me...?
 
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Vixy

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I Agree with you here Scott, I have had dreams that I will experience the tribulation and so has my husband. I haven't truly gone into these prophecies in the Bible like all the others have, but I definitely want to learn!
You DO know that the bible says that "Your young ones, elderlies, men and women will have visions in these days (end times)"?
 

Thunderian

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And, while we are on the subject what would "someone like me" be like in you're mind, T? Pray tell....
Someone like you is more interested in telling those who believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture that they're wrong, than in studying and knowing the word of God. Did you know, for instance, that the Rapture doctrine is found in the Bible, and didn't rely on men to invent it?

If Darby invented the Rapture, what was Paul talking about in 1 Thessalonians 4, if not the catching away of the body of Christ?

If the Rapture doctrine wasn't around until 1831, how could a Christian scholar have written the following on the subject within a couple hundred years of Christ's time on earth?

The Shepherd of Hermas, writing in the early 2nd Century, makes an interesting observation about “the great tribulation that is coming.” He says, “If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
People like you ignore that, because someone once told you that John Darby invented the Rapture, and you decided that it's easier to believe that than study for yourself and see what the Bible has to say.

People like you want a magic bullet verse that spells it out -- "Why, the word rapture isn't even IN the Bible!" you say -- instead of a doctrine built on the entire word of God. ... precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little, and there a little ...
 

UnderAlienControl

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The Shepherd of Hermas, writing in the early 2nd Century, makes an interesting observation about “the great tribulation that is coming.” He says, “If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
1) So you take that and extrapolate it into Christians just magically disappearing worldwide when it all goes down? Quite a leap right there, when it does not say how exactly they would escape. 2) The Bible says "one will be taken and one left behind". But it never says who will do "the taking" and even according to your rapture doctrine the one left behind is in some way "unworthy" i.e. quite possibly "the bad people" or the "ones on the fence about it" who participate in the Tribulation in the first place. And this sums up the problem with Religion. Man's interpretation of it. And as an aside, are you so sure that it's God's word or The Gods words as right up to the scribing of The Bible there was still a raging debate on whether there was one God or many by the very people who scribed the Bible. I believe that Jesus simplified all of this by telling us to not screw each other over and to help your brother, not hinder him. The Golden Rule is a condensation to dispel these same arguments over religion. Boiled down to the essence of being good or evil. It's that simple.

@UnderAlienControl ...
Where do you think Christians should stand regarding Israel? Has God finished with them?
Religion without any history is like a 3 legged chair. It's always gonna wobble -- UAC
 
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Thunderian

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1) So you take that and extrapolate it into Christians just magically disappearing worldwide when it all goes down? Quite a leap right there, when it does not say how exactly they would escape. 2) The Bible says "one will be taken and one left behind". But it never says who will do "the taking" and even according to your rapture doctrine the one left behind is in some way "unworthy" i.e. quite possibly "the bad people" or the "ones on the fence about it" who participate in the Tribulation in the first place. And this sums up the problem with Religion. Man's interpretation of it. And as an aside, are you so sure that it's God's word or The Gods words as right up to the scribing of The Bible there was still a raging debate on whether there was one God or many by the very people who scribed the Bible. I believe that Jesus simplified all of this by telling us to not screw each other over and to help your brother, not hinder him. The Golden Rule is a condensation to dispel these same arguments over religion. Boiled down to the essence of being good or evil. It's that simple.



Religion without history is like a 3 legged chair. It's always gonna wobble -- UAC
OK, well, if you ever want to have a serious discussion about the Rapture doctrine, let me know. :)
 

rainerann

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So I think there is some confusion about modern rapture teaching, where it comes from, and the difference between what the prophecy has to say about escaping all the things to come, and the rapture.

It is interesting that the verse from Luke is never used in support of the rapture theory. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36).

This would suggest that the rapture argument was developed recently and that it could be different than the argument from the early church because there are two different concepts being spoken of in scripture: escape, and the modern interpretation of the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 is often used to support the concept of a pretribulation rapture within the modern discussion of the subject. However, this passage is actually referring to the time before the millenial reign of Christ. This can be seen because it refers to the dead in Christ being raised simultaneously as Revelation 20 indicates that the ones who die because they did not worship the beast or take his mark will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4 is suggesting that there will be some who remain who also do not take the mark or worship the beast who will be part of this rapture. They will ever be with the Lord after this point and Revelation 20 confirms that the second death has no power over them.

1 Corinthians 15:52 also suggest that at the time of the "rapture" the dead in Christ are also raised at this same time. Again, this happens when the dead in Christ who didn't take the mark or worship the beast are raised from the dead and the second death will have no power over them.

So the two verses that are most often used to support a pretribulation rapture, are actually referring to the time when the millenial kingdom will begin unless someone can explain what role the dead have in the process of removing the church from the time of tribulation?

However, there are other verses that refer to an escape. There is the verse from Luke I already mentioned and there is another infamous verse in the book of Revelation that goes, "Come out of her, my people,' so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;"(Revelation 18:4).

It is here that the modern discussion of rapture theory becomes really confusing, difficult to follow, and ultimately false as a result of this verse in Revelation. Who is He referring to? Logically, I would assume that most people who support rapture theory think he is talking to the Jews at this point because the modern perspective of rapture theory does more than suggest a rapture. It often supports two different judgments. One for the church and another for Israel.

This is because we are being led to believe that accepting Christ doesn't apply to the Jews. They have favor without accepting Christ. Therefore, God will separate us because of this, and this is a narrative that is given to us by the ones trying to establish Israel. It is to their benefit that believers in Christ are led to believe that they have no part in establishing Israel because they aren't decendents of Abraham. This is the same as being sheep led to a slaughter. This is an apostate position.

I also highly doubt the early church supported this argument separating Jews and Gentiles that is frequently included in the discussion of pretribulation rapture.

The main problem with this thinking is that Revelation 18 is discussing events that precede Revelation 20 where it says that people coming out of her and refusing the mark were killed because of their testimony of Christ. This is often explained that they converted after everyone was raptured. Again, rapture theory becomes one of the most confusing theological discussions you will ever encounter.

It is also interesting to notice the book of Revelation never mentions the word Jew or Gentile one time. Yet, somehow, in the imagination of people who initially followed Darby, this is not relevant. So they found a way to make sense of this by saying that the Jew and Gentile are separated undoing every rebuke that was ever made about this in the New Testament.

We should consider why John, who was a Jew, never once distinguished himself as a Jew one time, in the Revelation or in any of his letters. Not once. John who was a disciple of Jesus and born a Jew never mentioned a difference between Jew or Gentile one time.

I believe that the reason pretribulation theory gained support in the beginning that has made it into the monstor it is today, is because of the excessive way it describes the tribulation as something that no one could survive.

This is done by neglecting the way the prophecy distinguishes between seals, bowls, and trumpets.

The seals begin with the rider on the white horse, which is the mystery of lawlessness or the spirit of antichrist that was already present in the world when the early church was established according to John.

Then, there is the rider on the red horse. This rider is able to make war and what better way to make war than with propaganda. Media is the only distinction between the old world and the new world and this is how this seal is fulfilled.

The 3rd seal is the black horse and the scales. This is our present economic system. Without capital, there is poverty. If you remove capital from one part of the population, this does not necessitate removing capital from everyone. So some will have oil and wine and other will struggle to buy bread. That is the reality of our economy right now and is described in this seal.

I could go through the rest of the seals, but the point without these seals, the Revelation is not dramatic as it would otherwise be. There is a limited time given to the beast and it is very reasonable to assume that some will be able to escape this time.

When this time end, begins judgments that will take place for an indefinite amount of time. It is also reasonable to assume that while these judgments are taking place, it will become even easier to escape the beast. I have no way of knowing what it would look like, I just know that if judgments are coming against the wicked in the world that were persecuting the believers, then they aren't as able to persecute the believers anymore and it is easier to escape till the end.

The ones who are able to do this will be rewarded for this.

It is also interesting to notice how this would fulfill the verse from Isaiah about the government of Christ.

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:7).

How would His government and peace increase if there is a rapture before the tribulation? What I truly believe this verse is ultimately saying is that the end is not as dramatic as the Darby supported modern interpretation of the rapture theory from which most people who believe in pretribulation rapture derive their interpretation. His government is increasing and there will be a way to escape, just not by way of a rapture. We are only being led to believe it is not increasing by deception and the presence of apostacy that scripture says will exist before the end.

So there is a difference between an escape and the theory of pretribulation rapture which is a new invention that requires creating a very complicated narrative for the book of Revelation. It isn't just about how the verses from 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians sound when you read them by themselves. When they are paired with the Revelation, you have to jump through more than one hoop to make the common interpretation work.

The verses work with the book of Revelation when they are not forced where they don't belong.

added**Also, pretribulation rapture theory is a great strategy to get the church to support Israel. It isn't about whether anyone who believes in it would be disappointed if it doesn't happen, especially if the time of judgment is not as dramatic as we are being led to believe. It is all about establishing a way to support Israel. That is all that matters to a Zionist.
 
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