Church Rapture on 25 June 2021

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

I agree that Stephen's sermon was very reminiscent of Jesus'.
To that I would add on that the stoning of Stephen was set off by him quoting Jesus' words to the high priest.

Mark14:62

Acts 7:56

Agree.

Anyway, I agree that after the stoning of Stephen the Jews in Jerusalem were no longer the focus of the ministry. But rather than immediately go to the gentiles weren't the Jews of the diaspora the next focus?
Acts 11:19 tells us

The first Christians were Jews of the diaspora as you say. When I say immediately this might not have been the same year Stephen was stoned. It might have been a few years later. Remember God does not conceive time like we do. However the apostles started to scatter as the Jewish leadership were not happy and had started complaining about the few Gentiles that had joined their fold.

Does the eunuch of Acts 8:27-8:38 (who was reading Isaiah, so even though he was ethnically Ethiopian was he already a jewish convert) being taught by Philip indicate that the focus is now gentiles? Or was it the centurion's vision in Acts 10 that would indicate a gentile focus?

The focus was anyone who accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour whether they were Jews or Gentiles but sadly most Jews' hearts were hardened and had rejected Christ as Messiah. It was easier to preach to the Jews of the diaspora and Gentiles. Having been born in foreign countries, the Jews of the diaspora had no deep roots in Judean Jewish traditions. They were not as attached to the temple ceremonies and to those aspects of the Mosaic law that were applicable only to the land of Israel. Also, having lived most of their lives in close contact with Gentiles, they would naturally be more willing to understand the inclusive character of the Christian faith. In fact, it was many Jews of the diaspora that God used to fulfil the command of bearing witness to the entire world who were mostly Gentiles.

As far as I can see there is no clear dividing line, is what I'm saying. I agree that the focus stops being Jerusalem, but it appears to be a slow gradual shift to gentiles, not a sudden change.

You're right it was a gradual change but for God that would be immediate.

It is a reasonable assumption that the ministry to the Jews went on for 3.5 years between the ressurection and Stephen's martyrdom,

Its not an assumption.

and I can see how you calculated the dates using Daniel, but we are not explicitly told that was the length of the ministry.
I will keep this in mind though. I had not thought of that before.

Remember Daniel 9 tells us how longs the ministry lasts because Jesus brought an end to sacrifices in the middle of the week which is 7 years. Only Jesus' death could have ended sacrifices (study the book of Hebrews) and that is why the curtain in the temple got torn in two when Jesus died. So we are told how long Jesus' earthly ministry was in the Word of God.

The problem is, while believers may have stopped sacrificing, there is no indication that Jews who did not believe stopped sacrificing until they were forced to at the time of the temple's destruction.

You're right the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as Messiah did not stop the temple ceremonies and rites. To this day there are some Jews along with zionist/dispensationalist Christians who want to rebuild the temple and re-start those ceremonies and rites.

When the Bible says the temple sacrifices and ceremonies stopped when Jesus died, it means they ceased to mean anything. As you know those sacrifices and ceremonies were about Jesus' life, ministry and pointed to His death. So the Jews who continued those ceremonies and rites were wasting their time. I doubt a third temple will ever be rebuilt but even if it were to be built, it will be pointless too. It will be as useless as the temple was after Christ died before it was destroyed by the Romans.

The reason God allowed the temple to be destroyed is because it was not needed any more. God’s people needed the earthly sanctuary to help them understand the heavenly sanctuary and the plan of salvation. When the lamb was put on the altar it was to signify Jesus’ great sacrifice for our sins as the only way to find pardon and enter into eternal life.

The earthly sanctuary also represented Christ’s mediatory role. As the people went to the priest and watched him perform the duty of mediation in the holy and most holy place, they were to understand that we cannot approach God without Christ interceding on our behalf. So Jesus not only fulfils the role of the lamb that was sacrificed, but also the priest who steps between God and us and shows that our sins have been covered by His blood. We have been made worthy of salvation because we are covered in His righteousness, not our own.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:5-6). 



"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises" (Hebrews 8:6).



No, it was popularized and spread by Darby and Scofield in the modern era, but variations of the rapture doctrine have existed since the early church days a couple generations removed from the apostles. Since before Nicaea and a paganized form of Christianity becoming state religion.

Parts of the doctrine had started hundreds of years before with the counter reformation but Darby and scofield are the ones who started the dispensationalist doctrine that we have today.

By this statement I am not saying it is a correct doctrine, i am just saying that it is older than that.

I understand.

But he did sit jn the temple and declare himself to be God. I disagree that Dan11 does not apply to Epiphanes.

He did sit in the temple, but Epiphanes did not destroy the temple for it to count as an abomination of desolation. Daniel 11 really does not apply to Epiphanes at all. It applies to a much much stronger power than him that was/is far worse than Epiphanes. That power still exists to this day.

So rather than a physical temple being destroyed what would be made desolate?

The church in the New covenant is the temple. Ephesians 2:19–22 says, "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." After the Jews rejected Jesus, He built a new kind of “temple,” and He made it, not with stones, bricks and mortar, but with people—a “living” temple. He promised to live in these people in the same way that His glory filled the temple in ancient times.

And Just as God gave the early Christians a sign of when to flee Jerusalem, so He has given us a sign. He has made it possible for every Christian to know when this world's probationary hour is nearing its close. In Revelation John records a list of signs that will tell us just how close we are to the end.

I take it you don't believe in the "church ages" doctrine, and that we are now in the lukewarm Laodicean era, in which there is no true church left and Jesus stands outside knocking to be let in?

I believe in the entire Word of God so of course I believe in the church eras as written of the book of Revelation. Those seven churches existed literally in the early Christian Church and the letters were written to them originally but the messages apply to us Christians today as do all other letters, or books in the Bible. The churches also represent different eras of the church since apostolic times. We are in Laodicean era which is a luke warm, spiritually poor, blind and naked era. Christ counsels us in this era to be zealous and repent. God's people will not have the condition of the Laodicean church because they will have obeyed His counsels.

However that is not what I meant by God's church. In the Bible God's true people are His church, the temple, “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision” as Paul calls it. In each era since creation God has always had a true and faithful people who obey and submit to Him. They are preaching the true gospel around the world without ceasing until probation ends. So there is a true church. And when Jesus returns He will find His Church (the living saved) waiting for Him.

I do want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to patiently answer all my questions. You've given me much to think about in regards to my Bible studies.

Thanks too for being patient with me. I tend to be too forthright and some people don't like that here. I hope we both continue to pray and study our Bibles and get to know our Lord on a deeper lever and get closer to Him until we are with Him in His Kingdom for all eternity.

 

[Maldarker]

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Maldarker

I don’t know whether you have experienced this, but if you have ever needed glasses and been for an eye test, you go through a series of images where one eye is covered and you are shown letters. Each time the optician asks if the image is clearer or more blurred.

I think the various “isms” are a bit like that - they bring some things in to clear focus and others less defined. I think the test to see whether a particular form of theology is valuable is to soak yourself in the Word from beginning to end and see what “glasses” bring it into the clearest focus.

My job is not to pull glasses off others - providing they can understand John 3:16 and 17 and have acted on the implications, we are family and the “Spirit of Truth” will draw us (in time) to all truth.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

When I say immediately this might not have been the same year Stephen was stoned. It might have been a few years later. Remember God does not conceive time like we do.

You're right it was a gradual change but for God that would be immediate.
...
Its not an assumption.

But if it is not immediately when the Jews of Jerusalem rejected the messiah again by stoning Stephen now we're talking about the possibility of an indeterminate period of time. Not a clear 3.5 years.

By "assumption" all I am saying is that we cannot comprehend how time is perceived by God. As he did not clearly tell us through scripture that the period from the resurrection to the rejection was 3.5 years, at best it is a very reasonable working theory.

Only Jesus' death could have ended sacrifices (study the book of Hebrews) and that is why the curtain in the temple got torn in two when Jesus died. So we are told how long Jesus' earthly ministry was in the Word of God.

I agree.

When the Bible says the temple sacrifices and ceremonies stopped when Jesus died, it means they ceased to mean anything

Is this distinct from the times God says he will not accept the sacrifices of the unrighteous in the Old Testament? Because "rightousness" is now only possible through accepting Jesus' sacrifice? Whereas before Jesus there was a "temporary" way of being righteous, which the people failed at regardless.

So Jesus not only fulfils the role of the lamb that was sacrificed, but also the priest who steps between God and us and shows that our sins have been covered by His blood. We have been made worthy of salvation because we are covered in His righteousness, not our own.

Yes!

Parts of the doctrine had started hundreds of years before with the counter reformation but Darby and scofield are the ones who started the dispensationalist doctrine that we have today.

Long before the counter reformation. I am talking in the 200s.
I will post pictures I took of a book I have called The Rapture by Ken Johnson.
As he mentions, these men did not have correct theology, but we find elements of the pre trib rapture doctrine.
I apologize for the low quality of the images. Its the best I can do for now...

Also, i would point out that there is not ONE pre trib rapture theory. In one of your previous posts you mentioned that the rapture doctrine says all that will be left behind is our clothes. I have heard a version which states that our corrupt blood will also be left behind, as corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

Again, I am not saying which, if any, of these doctrines is correct, just that there is a diversity of thought.

God's people will not have the condition of the Laodicean church because they will have obeyed His counsels.

Yes, i agree, i have thought that myself.

However that is not what I meant by God's church. In the Bible God's true people are His church, the temple, “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision” as Paul calls it. In each era since creation God has always had a true and faithful people who obey and submit to Him. They are preaching the true gospel around the world without ceasing until probation ends. So there is a true church. And when Jesus returns He will find His Church (the living saved) waiting for Him.

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that there is currently a correct denomination that teaches correct doctrine.

I hope we both continue to pray and study our Bibles and get to know our Lord on a deeper lever and get closer to Him until we are with Him in His Kingdom for all eternity.

I agree.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

But if it is not immediately when the Jews of Jerusalem rejected the messiah again by stoning Stephen now we're talking about the possibility of an indeterminate period of time. Not a clear 3.5 years.

I think I misunderstood you. I was talking about the gradual preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles after Stephen was martyred. The stoning of Stephen was the end of the 70 weeks cut or allotted to the Jews. It was that year that it all ended for the Jews as a chosen nation.

By "assumption" all I am saying is that we cannot comprehend how time is perceived by God. As he did not clearly tell us through scripture that the period from the resurrection to the rejection was 3.5 years, at best it is a very reasonable working theory.

There is no assumption after the calculation of the years. Now people may disagree about the year when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple went out which is when the 70 week period began but it ended in and around the time that Stephen was stoned. After that the gospel started be preached more fervently outside of Jerusalem to other nations.

After Jesus died, three and half years later the 70 weeks/490 years that were cut off for the Jews ended. Do you remember why that time was determined/alotted for the Jews in Daniel 9:24? To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and prophecy, to anoint the most holy. These specifications were to be accomplished during the the 490 years. Well the Jews hadn't done any of those things at the end of the 70 weeks and had rejected God for the last time. They were no longer the recipient and channel of God’s truth. this is the truth of the Bible, I know because it harmonises with the rest of the Bible. Its an extensive and unfortunately we can't discuss all of it here and why I know its the truth.

Is this distinct from the times God says he will not accept the sacrifices of the unrighteous in the Old Testament? Because "rightousness" is now only possible through accepting Jesus' sacrifice? Whereas before Jesus there was a "temporary" way of being righteous, which the people failed at regardless.

It is distinct yes. When God refused sacrifices in the Old Testament it was because of disobedience, and rejection of Him. After sin entered this world, God put in place a plan of salvation. That plan was that Jesus would come to this world and die in our stead for our sins if we accepted His gift of salvation. But Jesus was not going to be crucified immediately after sin entered this world in the garden of Eden. So God's people had to sacrifice animals to understand that without the shedding of blood, their sins could never be forgiven. Hebrews 9:22 says, "According to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” However Jesus' sacrifice covered all the repentant sinners from Adam and Eve to the close of probation at the end time because without a Saviour, no one has any hope for salvation. Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Long

before the counter reformation. I am talking in the 200s.

I didn't know it was that long ago but its not surprising since the devil has been working from the beginning to counter the truth of God so most of mankind will go to hell with him and be lost eternally.

I will post pictures I took of a book I have called The Rapture by Ken Johnson.
As he mentions, these men did not have correct theology, but we find elements of the pre trib rapture doctrine.
I apologize for the low quality of the images. Its the best I can do for now...

So there were elements of pre-trib before and after the counter reformation that Darby and Schofield chose from and put together and came up with dispensationalism.

The picture quality is fine.

Also, i would point out that there is not ONE pre trib rapture theory. In one of your previous posts you mentioned that the rapture doctrine says all that will be left behind is our clothes. I have heard a version which states that our corrupt blood will also be left behind, as corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

Again, I am not saying which, if any, of these doctrines is correct, just that there is a diversity of thought.

I know there are different versions of pre-trib but I know more of what Darby and Schofield taught. I won't look deeper into pre trib any more let alone other versions of it because its all tainted with error.

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that there is currently a correct denomination that teaches correct doctrine.

I don't think there is a any denomination that has the complete truth of God but there is a denomination that teaches most of the truth of God's Word on most subjects. It teaches the truth about the true Sabbath of God which is Saturday not Sunday, it teaches about the heavenly sanctuary, the true state of the dead, the end time message that harmonises with the whole Bible, obedience to God and His commandments, the truth about hellfire etc. Its where I learnt how to study the Bible. There are people in this world who have the truth of God, have faith and keep His commandments just like there have always been all throughout the ages since creation.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@phipps

You said this…

“The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists.”​

Given that Irenaeus talks about a catching away of the Church prior to the Tribulation, was he a Zionist too?

“Yes, they deceive Jews that they will all be saved during the tribulation. According to them the Jews are still chosen and are therefore more special than Gentiles which is not biblical.”​

Do you contend that the Bible does not teach of a blindness that will fall in part on the Jews till the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? How do you interpret Romans 11?

^ Included as I like to listen to chapters as a whole

 

[Maldarker]

@Maldarker

I don’t know whether you have experienced this, but if you have ever needed glasses and been for an eye test, you go through a series of images where one eye is covered and you are shown letters. Each time the optician asks if the image is clearer or more blurred.

I think the various “isms” are a bit like that - they bring some things in to clear focus and others less defined. I think the test to see whether a particular form of theology is valuable is to soak yourself in the Word from beginning to end and see what “glasses” bring it into the clearest focus.

My job is not to pull glasses off others - providing they can understand John 3:16 and 17 and have acted on the implications, we are family and the “Spirit of Truth” will draw us (in time) to all truth.

And thats the glasses that bring it clear for me...I have been through the ism's myself & yup know what your saying...
Think that can be surmised by my posts.

 

[Karlysymon]

I love the Rothschilds conspiracy angle - it reminds me for all the world of Shift, Rishta Taarkan and Ginger the cat in The Last Battle.

Of course there will be a Rothschild angle - if you know something is coming and you can do nothing to prevent it, make it look like it’s your idea and try to put it on the floor!

#spiritualjudo

It vexed me actually because when you ask these people who believe it, they would have no answer. If the Rothschilds wrote the text of Revelation, then how would God warn us about the events to transpire at the end of the age? Claiming that He would dictate it to someone who would then write it down...then what difference is there in John writing the book?

You said this…

“The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists.”
Given that Irenaeus talks about a catching away of the Church prior to the Tribulation, was he a Zionist too?

Phipps will answer for himself but i just wanted to comment on this appeal to the church fathers. While often times it is helpful, for the most part it isn't. You do realize that Unitarians and non-unitarians (like non-christians) both appeal to 1st century christians in discrediting the deity of Christ/His divine nature. Everyone uses that trick to buttress their beliefs, whether said beliefs are true or false. I couldn't find the original post i was looking for but this one will suffice. At the end of the day, the Bible is very clear about Christ's divine nature, the manner of His second coming and every other major doctrine but we wiggle around all that by using the private (biased) beliefs of the church fathers that the Bible ,itself, cannot support.

John McArthur came up a couple pages ago. Imagine if he had lived in the 1st century and he held the heretical view that he holds today about the mark of the beast. Obviously, someone living 2000yrs later would point to that and say: oh look! the church fathers believed that the mark of the beast can be repented of...even though the scriptural text is very clear about the matter.

I know this wasnt directed at me, but i wanted to give some of my thoughts.

We (my husband and i) had this horrible thought one day, what if we missed the rapture? What if it happened back before we were Christians?
I immediately got to internet searching, and most things focus on either there is no such thing as the rapture, or Paul said that Jesus hadnt returned yet.

But i wanted to know about the time after Paul was done writing but before modern recorded history. Of even if it was modern, if it's possible to scrub things from the internet, how much easier before the internet.

I stumbled across this site, which says that Jesus returned once in the sky with his angels before the destruction of the temple. Supposedly it was recorded by extra biblical sources. I have put Josephus' Antiquitites of the Jews on my reading list, but i have not checked out this guy's sources yet.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 | Revelation Revolution

In short, i am not endorsing this guy's preterist interpretation, but found it interesting regardless.

You post interesting stuff and i'd never come across this...or maybe i have but it never really registered in my mind. If that is actually true, and that Tacitus and others weren't lying, then i can only conclude two things: either Satan has the ability to put on a fabulous movie...playing out in the sky as on a movie screen...history that would repeat itself
OR
as punishment of the Jewish nation was looming, God caused visions of the future to pass before the eyes of the fated nation...not any different from Christ's statement to the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:64).

That said, the Bible is very descriptive of events (cosmic & terrestrial) happening shortly before, during and after the Second coming. Things that NEVER happened circa 66-70AD. So, no, i don't buy that guy's claim.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Phipps will answer for himself but i just wanted to comment on this appeal to the church fathers. While often times it is helpful, for the most part it isn't.

The appeal to a second century witness and student of Polycarp was made in the same spirit one might make reference to Josephus - a contemporary historian but a sell-out to the Romans by some accounts, nonetheless acts as a witness to the historical reality of Jesus.

 

[Karlysymon]

The appeal to a second century witness and student of Polycarp was made in the same spirit one might make reference to Josephus - a contemporary historian but a sell-out to the Romans by some accounts, nonetheless acts as a witness to the historical reality of Jesus.

Point taken.

 

[phipps]

@Red Sky at Morning

You said this…

“The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists.”​

]Given that Irenaeus talks about a catching away of the Church prior to the Tribulation, was he a Zionist too?

“Yes, they deceive Jews that they will all be saved during the tribulation. According to them the Jews are still chosen and are therefore more special than Gentiles which is not biblical.”​

​

If he taught that all Jews would be saved during the tribulation then he was a zionist. That is part of zionist belief is it not?

​

Do you contend that the Bible does not teach of a blindness that will fall in part on the Jews till the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? How do you interpret Romans 11?

Before I get to Romans 11:25-26, remember the Bible is consistent and makes it clear that no one is going to be saved who does not accept and believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Peter found out in Acts 10:34-35 that God shows no partiality to anyone. He said, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." Peter found out that God's chosen people are all those around the world who have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him.

Romans 11:25-26 says, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:"

1- The blindness or hardening of the Jews is only “in part.” In the same chapter of Romans 11:17-24, Paul had used the image of an olive tree to represent the people of God in the Old Testament. With the coming of the Messiah, some of the natural branches, some Jews, had been broken off; while some of the wild branches, the Gentiles, had been grafted in. In verse 25 Paul explains the broken off branches are the hardened Jews. Those branches that were not broken off were not hardened and stayed on the olive tree which represents Israel.

2- It is only temporary, “until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.” The hardening is not final, and shows that God is still working with them; He has not rejected them (verses 1-2).

The “fullness” here implies the full measure, the full number of Gentiles that will be saved. Which means, after this time, no more Gentiles will be saved. When will this closure to the number of Gentiles take place? This is where dispensationalists believe that this will happen at a supposed secret rapture when the church is taken to heaven: after the secret rapture the focus moves away from the church to the physical nation of Israel, to Jews, for seven years, and then the end comes. But even during these supposed seven post-rapture years that belong to the Jews, salvation is still open to Gentiles. Somehow, their fullness has not come in even then. Clearly, the dispensationalist viewpoint does not match with what Paul says.

But in the Bible the fullness of the Gentiles will only be complete at the point when the door of probation, the door of salvation closes. Until that moment, Gentiles will be streaming into the Kingdom. When the door of salvation closes, then and only then will Gentiles stop coming in. But at that point, the door of salvation is closed to everyone, not just Gentiles. Which means that when the “fullness of the Gentiles” comes in, the door of probation is closed. Paul is therefore not foretelling of a time in the end when the physical descendants of Abraham will come into the Kingdom in large numbers. Rather, he is saying that the partial hardening of the Jews will last until the end. And that is true of the rest of the rest of the world too.

3- How then can Paul say that all Israel will be saved? This is where the dispensationalists think this means that ethnic Jews will be saved by some divine decree and have salvation in the end time whether they believed in Christ as their Saviour or not. This is clearly not the case. In Romans 9:6 Paul states: “But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.” To be an Israelite is more than to possess an ethnic identity; it is rather to have the faith of Abraham, “the father of all who believe” (Romans 4:11). Remember in Romans 11:17-24 with the olive tree, the Gentiles (wild shoots that were grafted in) joined Israel and became part of Israel. They too are Israelites. All people who accept Jesus as their Saviour and submit to Him are Israel and that is how all Israel will be saved.

I have posted this before but I will post it here again:

"Nowhere do the Scriptures preach universalism, either for the entire human race or for a particular segment. Paul was hoping to save “some of them” (Romans 11:14). Some accepted the Messiah, and some rejected Him, as it is with all people groups."

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning

​

If he taught that all Jews would be saved during the tribulation then he was a zionist. That is part of zionist belief is it not?

​

Before I get to Romans 11:25-26, remember the Bible is consistent and makes it clear that no one is going to be saved who does not accept and believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Peter found out in Acts 10:34-35 that God shows no partiality to anyone. He said, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." Peter found out that God's chosen people are all those around the world who have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour and have faith in Him.

Romans 11:25-26 says, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:"

1- The blindness or hardening of the Jews is only “in part.” In the same chapter of Romans 11:17-24, Paul had used the image of an olive tree to represent the people of God in the Old Testament. With the coming of the Messiah, some of the natural branches, some Jews, had been broken off; while some of the wild branches, the Gentiles, had been grafted in. In verse 25 Paul explains the broken off branches are the hardened Jews. Those branches that were not broken off were not hardened and stayed on the olive tree which represents Israel.

2- It is only temporary, “until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.” The hardening is not final, and shows that God is still working with them; He has not rejected them (verses 1-2).

The “fullness” here implies the full measure, the full number of Gentiles that will be saved. Which means, after this time, no more Gentiles will be saved. When will this closure to the number of Gentiles take place? This is where dispensationalists believe that this will happen at a supposed secret rapture when the church is taken to heaven: after the secret rapture the focus moves away from the church to the physical nation of Israel, to Jews, for seven years, and then the end comes. But even during these supposed seven post-rapture years that belong to the Jews, salvation is still open to Gentiles. Somehow, their fullness has not come in even then. Clearly, the dispensationalist viewpoint does not match with what Paul says.

But in the Bible the fullness of the Gentiles will only be complete at the point when the door of probation, the door of salvation closes. Until that moment, Gentiles will be streaming into the Kingdom. When the door of salvation closes, then and only then will Gentiles stop coming in. But at that point, the door of salvation is closed to everyone, not just Gentiles. Which means that when the “fullness of the Gentiles” comes in, the door of probation is closed. Paul is therefore not foretelling of a time in the end when the physical descendants of Abraham will come into the Kingdom in large numbers. Rather, he is saying that the partial hardening of the Jews will last until the end. And that is true of the rest of the rest of the world too.

3- How then can Paul say that all Israel will be saved? This is where the dispensationalists think this means that ethnic Jews will be saved by some divine decree and have salvation in the end time whether they believed in Christ as their Saviour or not. This is clearly not the case. In Romans 9:6 Paul states: “But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.” To be an Israelite is more than to possess an ethnic identity; it is rather to have the faith of Abraham, “the father of all who believe” (Romans 4:11). Remember in Romans 11:17-24 with the olive tree, the Gentiles (wild shoots that were grafted in) joined Israel and became part of Israel. They too are Israelites. All people who accept Jesus as their Saviour and submit to Him are Israel and that is how all Israel will be saved.

I have posted this before but I will post it here again:

"Nowhere do the Scriptures preach universalism, either for the entire human race or for a particular segment. Paul was hoping to save “some of them” (Romans 11:14). Some accepted the Messiah, and some rejected Him, as it is with all people groups."

Regarding fullness, are you familiar with the Biblical harvest pattern of the first fruits, harvest and then the gleanings?

 

[phipps]

Regarding fullness, are you familiar with the Biblical harvest pattern of the first fruits, harvest and then the gleanings?

I am but I know what I believe will differ from yours. Let me ask you, does what you believe about "the Biblical harvest pattern of the first fruits, harvest and then the gleanings" harmonise with the Bible?

I have to remind you again that the Bible does not contradict itself. When God says He shows no partiality to anyone, that includes the Jews. So there is not going to be another part of God's Word that shows he favours the Jews more than Gentiles unless scripture is twisted to reach that conclusion which unfortunately dispensationalism does. Romans 2:9-11, “tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

This is from my dispensationalist thread: "What God expects of the Gentiles, He expects of Jews. Jews are not going to get leniency from God because of their genetics. That would be God showing partiality or favouritism wouldn't it? Genetics play no role in being saved either. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I am but I know what I believe will differ from yours. Let me ask you, does what you believe about "the Biblical harvest pattern of the first fruits, harvest and then the gleanings" harmonise with the Bible?

I have to remind you again that the Bible does not contradict itself. When God says He shows no partiality to anyone, that includes the Jews. So there is not going to be another part of God's Word that shows he favours the Jews more than Gentiles unless scripture is twisted to reach that conclusion which unfortunately dispensationalism does. Romans 2:9-11, “tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

This is from my dispensationalist thread: "What God expects of the Gentiles, He expects of Jews. Jews are not going to get leniency from God because of their genetics. That would be God showing partiality or favouritism wouldn't it? Genetics play no role in being saved either. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).?

I quite agree - I don’t believe in dual covenant theology at all.

The future events by way of timeline appear to me to be:-

The Rapture (main harvest)
The time of Jacob’s trouble (I.e. Israel)
The ongoing salvation (and for most, death) of the “gleanings” of gentile believers.
Concurrent with the conversion of 144000 young male Jewish evangelists (towards the beginning of the Tribulation)

As for all Israel being saved, it does appear to come with a caveat - the only ones who get saved are the ones who repent and realise that Jesus was their true Messiah…

Will all Israel be saved in the end times (Romans 11:26)? | GotQuestions.org

Will all Israel be saved in the end times (Romans 11:26)? What does Romans 11:26 mean by 'all Israel will be saved'?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[phipps]

@Red Sky at Morning

I quite agree - I don’t believe in dual covenant theology at all.

You do. Zionist beliefs are dual covenant theology because there is one rule for the Jews and another for Gentiles. And the covenant God made with literal Israel still stands.

The future events by way of timeline appear to me to be:-

The Rapture (main harvest)
The time of Jacob’s trouble (I.e. Israel)
The ongoing salvation (and for most, death) of the “gleanings” of gentile believers.

We've been here before. There is no rapture teaching in the Bible. Do you remember I asked you to show me specific scripture that talks about the rapture in the Bible? To this day you've never been able to because there is not even one verse that directly talks about rapture. Meanwhile we read about the second coming of Jesus once for the righteous in both testaments of the Bible. Jesus is not coming back in two phases in the Bible and that is that. I will stick to biblical truth.

The rest is false too because its all under the banner of the rapture.

Concurrent with the conversion of 144000 young male Jewish evangelists (towards the beginning of the Tribulation)

Can you prove this from the Bible please? I have never read that the 144,000 will be young male Jewish evangelists.

And the seven year tribulation you believe in which will happen after the church has been raptured is not biblical either. As I said above in my posts in this thread, the tribulation will happen before Jesus comes back according to the Bible. Jesus will return after the seventh plague in Revelation 16 for His people and not before. The Bible says of the 144,000, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14). When Jesus returns the second time once, He will find the 144,000 waiting for him as well all the living saved after the great tribulation.

Remember what Paul says about Israel in Romans 11:17-24. The Gentiles (the wild shoots) are grafted onto the Olive tree (Israel). So in the New Covenant true Christian regardless of their ethnicity are Israel too. So the 144, 000 will not be literal ethnic Jews. Some will be because there are Jews who are Christian and have accepted Christ as Messiah, but the 144,000 will be from different ethnicities from around the world.

As for all Israel being saved, it does appear to come with a caveat - the only ones who get saved are the ones who repent and realise that Jesus was their true Messiah…

Really? I thought all the Jews during the seven year tribulation were going to be saved or do you believe in a different version of pre-trib to the one I read about.

Will all Israel be saved in the end times (Romans 11:26)?
Got questions is wrong to take the literal approach. Obviously it teaches dispensationalism too.

As I posted above in this post and in my previous one, in the same chapter of Romans 11:17-24 Paul talks about the Gentiles being grafted into Israel. So they too are Israelites because they are true Christians who have accepted Christ as their Saviour and submit to Him.

So yes, all Israel will be saved but it will include people of different nations and tongues.

Romans 9:6-8, "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 3:29, “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Do you see how the Bible harmonises? The Bible does not separate the Jews from the Gentiles. As long as they are true born again Christians they belong to God's one true church/body.

Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

I tell you this with all sincerity, dispensationalism is a false doctrine. I pray that God leads you to the truth of His Word that has no error in it.

 

[TokiEl]

Jesus will return after the seventh plague in Revelation 16 for His people and not before.

There are 7 seals in the book of Revelation.


The 7th seal is divided into and called 7 trumpets in Rev 8-11... but is called 7 bowls of wrath in Rev 16.

It's the same.


The 6th seal is the wrath of God... and the elect are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

And as can be seen in Rev 7 the elect are sealed and a multitude is before the throne and the Lamb.

So does the resurrection happen at this time at the 6th seal ? It sure looks like it.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning


You do. Zionist beliefs are dual covenant theology because there is one rule for the Jews and another for Gentiles. And the covenant God made with literal Israel still stands.


We've been here before. There is no rapture teaching in the Bible. Do you remember I asked you to show me specific scripture that talks about the rapture in the Bible? To this day you've never been able to because there is not even one verse that directly talks about rapture. Meanwhile we read about the second coming of Jesus once for the righteous in both testaments of the Bible. Jesus is not coming back in two phases in the Bible and that is that. I will stick to biblical truth.

The rest is false too because its all under the banner of the rapture.

Can you prove this from the Bible please? I have never read in the Bible that the 144,000 will be young male Jewish evangelists.

And the seven year tribulation you believe in which will happen after the church has been raptured is not biblical either. As I said above and in my posts in this thread, the tribulation will happen before Jesus comes back according to the Bible. Jesus will return after the seventh plague in Revelation 16 for His people and not before. The Bible says of the 144,000, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14). When Jesus returns the second time once, He will find the 144,000 waiting for him as well all the living saved after the great tribulation.

Remember what Paul says about Israel in Romans 11:17-24. The Gentiles (the wild shoots) are grafted onto the Olive tree (Israel). So in the New Covenant true Christian regardless of their ethnicity are Israel too. So the 144, 000 will not be literal ethnic Jews. Some will be because there are Jews who are Christian and have accepted Christ as Messiah, but the 144,000 will be from different ethnicities from around the world.


Really? I thought all the Jews during the seven year tribulation were going to be saved or do you believe in a different version of pre-trib to the one I read about.

Will all Israel be saved in the end times (Romans 11:26)?
Got questions is wrong to take the literal approach. Obviously it teaches dispensationalism too.

As I posted above in this post and in my previous one, in the same chapter of Romans 11:17-24 Paul talks about the Gentiles being grafted into Israel. So they too are Israelites because they are true Christians who have accepted Christ as their Saviour and submit to Him.

So yes, all Israel will be saved but it will include people of different nations, nations,tongues and people.

Romans 9:6-8, "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 3:29, “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Do you see how the Bible harmonises? The Bible does not separate the Jews from the Gentiles. As long as they are true born again Christians they belong to God's one true church/body.

Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

I tell you this with all sincerity, dispensationalism is a false doctrine. I pray that God leads you to the truth of His Word that has no error in it.

The issue is simply the “glasses” we are wearing Phipps. I find it interesting that you find a dispensational view the antithesis of SDA doctrine.

I quite agree.

I think these positions are the furthest apart in Christianity (especially when it comes to understanding topics like law and grace and eschatology).

One area of possible misunderstanding can arise from those who hold to a “dual covenant” view regarding salvation. In Jesus, there is indeed neither Jew nor Greek. The confusion comes when wholesale transference of promises made to national Israel to the Church. To be clear, I believe faith in Jesus is the only way any of us will individually see God, but I also believe God will keep his promises to Abraham to the Jewish nation.

I think much of the difference lies in what each camp identifies as literal and /or symbolic. I could say a lot on this but I posted up a video on the early church’s eschatological beliefs that cover a sweep of church history and the loss and gain of clarity on certain issues it shows.

These issues have been kicked about between denominations for years, but if we truly live in the “generation that will not pass” of the Fig Tree prophecy, we may not have to wait too much longer for the Lord to settle the matter.

 

[phipps]

The issue is simply the “glasses” we are wearing Phipps. I find it interesting that you find a dispensational view the antithesis of SDA doctrine.

I quite agree.

I think these positions are the furthest apart in Christianity (especially when it comes to understanding topics like law and grace and eschatology).

One area of possible misunderstanding can arise from those who hold to a “dual covenant” view regarding salvation. In Jesus, there is indeed neither Jew nor Greek. The confusion comes when wholesale transference of promises made to national Israel to the Church. To be clear, I believe faith in Jesus is the only way any of us will individually see God, but I also believe God will keep his promises to Abraham to the Jewish nation.

I think much of the difference lies in what each camp identifies as literal and /or symbolic. I could say a lot on this but I posted up a video on the early church’s eschatological beliefs that cover a sweep of church history and the loss and gain of clarity on certain issues it shows.

These issues have been kicked about between denominations for years, but if we truly live in the “generation that will not pass” of the Fig Tree prophecy, we may not have to wait too much longer for the Lord to settle the matter.

I wondered when you would think to insult me again because you can't take my being forthright about dispensationalism. I am not attacking you personally so calm down will you?

Instead of answering my questions and proving what you posted from the Bible, you attack a denomination. That is sad and immature but I won't go down to your level. I refuse to.

Dispensationalism is the antithesis of biblical doctrine. Biblical doctrine is not denominational as you know. A lot of what dispensationalism teaches is not even written of in the Bible, that's why you dodge answering my questions as you've proven in your posts here and others.

Dispensationalism does not harmonise with the Bible because it has taken scripture out of context and it does not compare scripture with scripture even in the same chapter like in Romans 11 that we discussed here.

God does not have a separate plan of salvation for the Jews and a separate one for Gentiles. Its the same plan for all mankind since sin came into this world. The Bible is not crystal clear on that. If any denomination says this same thing, its teaching God's truth not man made doctrine.

I posted this in my thread about dispensationalism being a man made doctrine:

"Christians who believe in the dispensationalist doctrine follow and idolise other men and their interpretations of what they think the Bible really says, instead of studying the Bible itself prayerfully and finding out God's true doctrine. These men came up with systems of interpretations, which became idolised in certain branches of Christianity and taught in certain Bible colleges as TRUTH. This is the work of proud men led by their own intellect and not by the Spirit of God. They have a zeal but not after God's knowledge and truth, they are stiff-necked and unable to understand that they are gravely deceived."

I'm done having this discussion with you, the rest I leave to God. I pray that His truth according to His Word.

Bye.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I wondered when you would think to insult me again because you can't take my being forthright about dispensationalism. I am not attacking you personally so calm down will you?

Instead of answering my questions and proving what you posted from the Bible, you attack a denomination. That is sad and immature but I won't go down to your level. I refuse to.

Dispensationalism is the antithesis of biblical doctrine. Biblical doctrine is not denominational as you know. A lot of what dispensationalism teaches is not even written of in the Bible, that's why you dodge answering my questions as you've proven in your posts here and others.

Dispensationalism does not harmonise with the Bible because it has taken scripture out of context and it does not compare scripture with scripture even in the same chapter like in Romans 11 that we discussed here.

God does not have a separate plan of salvation for the Jews and a separate one for Gentiles. Its the same plan for all mankind since sin came into this world. The Bible is not crystal clear on that. If any denomination says this same thing, its teaching God's truth not man made doctrine.

I posted this in my thread about dispensationalism being a man made doctrine:

"Christians who believe in the dispensationalist doctrine follow and idolise other men and their interpretations of what they think the Bible really says, instead of studying the Bible itself prayerfully and finding out God's true doctrine. These men came up with systems of interpretations, which became idolised in certain branches of Christianity and taught in certain Bible colleges as TRUTH. This is the work of proud men led by their own intellect and not by the Spirit of God. They have a zeal but not after God's knowledge and truth, they are stiff-necked and unable to understand that they are gravely deceived."

I'm done having this discussion with you, the rest I leave to God. I pray that His truth according to His Word.

Bye.

I had literally replied to that comment on the other thread, but perhaps I should have posted it here…


@phipps

With respect….

<====== begin polemic

“Christians who believe in the [substitute any doctrine you disagree with here] follow and idolise other men and their interpretations of what they think the Bible really says, instead of studying the Bible itself prayerfully and finding out God's true doctrine. These men came up with systems of interpretations, which became idolised in certain branches of Christianity and taught in certain Bible colleges as TRUTH. This is the work of proud men led by their own intellect and not by the Spirit of God. They have a zeal but not after God's knowledge and truth, they are stiff-necked and unable to understand that they are gravely deceived.”

========> end polemic

I recently had a lengthy Facebook interaction with a person who was firmly convinced of Reformed, covenant theology. He took the fact that the reformers, especially Calvin, were excellent folk and, using the 1611 KJV understood the Bible better than anyone. Ever. Calvin’s TULIP formulation was unquestionably correct etc.

He criticised the later “ideas of men” like Schofield and Darby whilst being blissfully unaware that the reformers were men (and women), as was Augustine, Irenaeus and evenEllen G White.

Truthfully, we simply have the Bible, the Holy Spirit (for those of us who are Born Again) the historic ideas of fellow believers and our own insight and maturity to draw on. Even with these, on some matters we will all see through a glass darkly.

As I have got older, I have come to understand these verses more and more…

1 Corinthians 2

Paul's Message, the Spirit's Power

1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul knew more than he shared with the Corinthians, but he chose not to let that knowledge eclipse his witness for the Lord. There are wide disagreements on many secondary denominational stances, none of which do the slightest thing to help reach the lost, and when we know even as we are known will become an irrelevance in the bright light of eternity.

P.s. In the light of your words, I think this is an appropriate and edifying article…

The Separation of Paul and Barnabas

The seemingly tragic separation of Paul and Barnabas is well known to serious Bible students. What was the cause of this breach of work-association? Who was to blame? What might the Christian learn from this episode? Study this case with us.

www.christiancourier.com

p.p.s. As far as Adventists are concerned, just from the top of my head, I believe Ron Wyatt was instrumental in finding the real Mt Sinai (in Arabia) and Adventist Physicist Robert Gentry explains showed how polonium radiohalos constitute powerful evidence for biblical creation.

 

[phipps]

I have proved on here with the Word of God that the rapture is not written of in the Bible at all. That means its never going to take place at all. But the Bible talks about the glorious return of Christ for His people at His second coming. Which is very good news.

How How do we prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus though? What does the Bible say?

Matthew 24:44 says, "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

God is a God of love. He loved us so much that He sent His Son to come and live on this earth and be tortured and crucified that we might be saved from this wicked world. He wants each individual to have eternal life with Jesus in a home where there will be no sorrow or heartache. If we are going to live with Jesus and be happy, we must be like Him. And this takes work.

On the way to the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was conversing with His disciples: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). In order for us to be ready for the Lord’s soon coming, we must learn how to be like Jesus. What was Jesus like? If we study the four gospels in the New Testament, we get a good description of the Saviour. A self-description is found in Matthew 11:29: “I am meek and lowly of heart.”

In Jesus’ sermon recorded in Matthew 7, He gives a depiction of the kind of people who would be in heaven. In our preparation, it would be well for us to put these characteristics into our lives. We cannot do this of our own power; we must ask for help from our Saviour, but he has promised in Mathew 7:7-8 that if you ask, you will receive.

“And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” Matthew 5:2-12.

These are the characteristics that Jesus prizes and will be found in those who enter heaven. We must ask for the help of Jesus to implement these in our lives.

May God bless us all as we strive to enter the kingdom.