Christian Zionism Discussed

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Another question considered by the halakhic literature is whether, now that the Jews possessed power, the State of Israel should destroy the churches under its rule, or whether this course of action should be avoided only because of fear of infuriating the “goyim,” as Rabbi Yehuda Gershuni (a student of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook) and Rabbi Menachem Kasher maintained.

...

According to Ashkenazi, things turned around after Israel’s establishment. Now it was Christianity that suffered from a loss of self-identity. It’s not the eyes of the Jews that are covered by a veil that prevents them from understanding the Old Testament; it’s the Christians who are blind and don’t understand the New Testament. The reestablishment of Jewish sovereignty proves that the Jews were right in their lengthy disputation with Christianity. Realization of the prophecies about the return to Zion proves that the Jewish interpretation of the Bible, not the Christian one, is the right one. Instead of the Jews serving as “witnesses of faith” for the justification of Christianity, Ashkenazi says, now the Christians served as witnesses who are astonished at the resurgence of the Jewish people.

Thus a new interpretation of the creation of the State of Israel developed. Not only a “national home” like that of other peoples, but a religious event that was meant to refute the Christian faith. Things had gone topsy-turvy, “and the time has come to reverse the method,” Manitou writes.

...

Almost at the same time that the Catholic world backed away from the old theology that saw in history the realization of the Church’s victory over Judaism – that same theology, in reverse form, acquired new life among the followers of Jewish Zionist messianism. The turning point in Christendom occurred in 1965; in that Jewish community in 1967. According to Oury Cherki, one of the rabbis of that circle, the Six-Day War is to be held in even higher regard than the War of Independence. It was “a biblical event in every sense of the word.” Now it was the turn of the Jews to see history as realizing the victory of Judaism over the Church.

Regrettably, while the Church is moving forward and calling for interfaith conciliation and fraternity, Jewish Orthodox circles are reviving the old controversy and claiming victory. Rabbi Cherki even expects the Christians to believe in the Jewish people in place of Jesus, because “Jew is the divine”! Manitou writes, “Gradually the Christians are discovering that the Jew does not need to Christianize but the Christian needs to Judaize.”

...

Flusser had expressed his satisfaction that Eichmann was unwilling to take the oath on a copy of the New Testament in court. “Eichmann severed himself from the God of Christianity and thereby served Christianity,” Flusser wrote. He added his hope that this “will be a historic change for my Christian brethren to cleanse their religious conscience and will make it possible for the Church to draw closer to our common Father in heaven.”


Leibowitz was furious at Flusser’s efforts “to purify the vermin [sheretz] of Christianity with a host of excuses.” In his view, it was hatred of Judaism and of Jews that had spawned Christianity, and it “found its perfect expression in the sinful folio [in Hebrew avon, sinful, plus gelion, folio – a wordplay on “Evangelion”] and the letters of the apostate by spite.”


Leibowitz used abusive language against Christianity, refrained from calling Paul the Evangelist by name and termed him an apostate “by spite,” in contrast to the narrative of his conversion from deep conviction and after Jesus was revealed to him. Christianity is an “abomination of desolation,” paganism that maliciously falsified symbols borrowed from Judaism. “We curse Christianity three times every day,” Leibowitz wrote.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Christians. Read.


Quotes:

Another question considered by the halakhic literature is whether, now that the Jews possessed power, the State of Israel should destroy the churches under its rule, or whether this course of action should be avoided only because of fear of infuriating the “goyim,” as Rabbi Yehuda Gershuni (a student of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook) and Rabbi Menachem Kasher maintained.

...

According to Ashkenazi, things turned around after Israel’s establishment. Now it was Christianity that suffered from a loss of self-identity. It’s not the eyes of the Jews that are covered by a veil that prevents them from understanding the Old Testament; it’s the Christians who are blind and don’t understand the New Testament. The reestablishment of Jewish sovereignty proves that the Jews were right in their lengthy disputation with Christianity. Realization of the prophecies about the return to Zion proves that the Jewish interpretation of the Bible, not the Christian one, is the right one. Instead of the Jews serving as “witnesses of faith” for the justification of Christianity, Ashkenazi says, now the Christians served as witnesses who are astonished at the resurgence of the Jewish people.

Thus a new interpretation of the creation of the State of Israel developed. Not only a “national home” like that of other peoples, but a religious event that was meant to refute the Christian faith. Things had gone topsy-turvy, “and the time has come to reverse the method,” Manitou writes.

...

Almost at the same time that the Catholic world backed away from the old theology that saw in history the realization of the Church’s victory over Judaism – that same theology, in reverse form, acquired new life among the followers of Jewish Zionist messianism. The turning point in Christendom occurred in 1965; in that Jewish community in 1967. According to Oury Cherki, one of the rabbis of that circle, the Six-Day War is to be held in even higher regard than the War of Independence. It was “a biblical event in every sense of the word.” Now it was the turn of the Jews to see history as realizing the victory of Judaism over the Church.

Regrettably, while the Church is moving forward and calling for interfaith conciliation and fraternity, Jewish Orthodox circles are reviving the old controversy and claiming victory. Rabbi Cherki even expects the Christians to believe in the Jewish people in place of Jesus, because “Jew is the divine”! Manitou writes, “Gradually the Christians are discovering that the Jew does not need to Christianize but the Christian needs to Judaize.”

...

Flusser had expressed his satisfaction that Eichmann was unwilling to take the oath on a copy of the New Testament in court. “Eichmann severed himself from the God of Christianity and thereby served Christianity,” Flusser wrote. He added his hope that this “will be a historic change for my Christian brethren to cleanse their religious conscience and will make it possible for the Church to draw closer to our common Father in heaven.”


Leibowitz was furious at Flusser’s efforts “to purify the vermin [sheretz] of Christianity with a host of excuses.” In his view, it was hatred of Judaism and of Jews that had spawned Christianity, and it “found its perfect expression in the sinful folio [in Hebrew avon, sinful, plus gelion, folio – a wordplay on “Evangelion”] and the letters of the apostate by spite.”


Leibowitz used abusive language against Christianity, refrained from calling Paul the Evangelist by name and termed him an apostate “by spite,” in contrast to the narrative of his conversion from deep conviction and after Jesus was revealed to him. Christianity is an “abomination of desolation,” paganism that maliciously falsified symbols borrowed from Judaism. “We curse Christianity three times every day,” Leibowitz wrote.
@Artful Revealer - I can genuinely see how two such antagonistic perspectives have developed and how throwing in a “homeland” for the Jews could make them turn round and say “I told you so!”....

My feeling is this though, the above has a great deal to do with a kind of spiritual “identity politics” and less to do with a picture of what the Bible paints about the future of the Jews or the nature of the Church.

What if “returning to the land” was less a badge of Divine approval and more an appointment with history?

What if the Parable of the Vineyard has an application to the Jews at the end of the Tribulation? Might it be possible that those surviving come to faith in Jesus as their true Messiah through “Jacob’s Trouble” and be rewarded with the same blessings as their Gentile brothers and sisters despite having only repented and believed at the last moment?
 






TokiEl

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God did not bring the jews back to their land because of their righteousness... no not at all.



Ezekiel 36 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
 






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God did not bring the jews back to their land because of their righteousness... no not at all.

Ezekiel 36 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
What's his holy name?
 






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@Artful Revealer - I can genuinely see how two such antagonistic perspectives have developed and how throwing in a “homeland” for the Jews could make them turn round and say “I told you so!”....

My feeling is this though, the above has a great deal to do with a kind of spiritual “identity politics” and less to do with a picture of what the Bible paints about the future of the Jews or the nature of the Church.

What if “returning to the land” was less a badge of Divine approval and more an appointment with history?

What if the Parable of the Vineyard has an application to the Jews at the end of the Tribulation? Might it be possible that those surviving come to faith in Jesus as their true Messiah through “Jacob’s Trouble” and be rewarded with the same blessings as their Gentile brothers and sisters despite having only repented and believed at the last moment?
How does one tell the difference between divine providence, appointment with history and self-fulfilling prophecies?

Also, the antagonism between the Jew and the Christian is not something that has developed after their separation, but was already present during Jesus' ministry, the Gospel of John who signified the Jew as the seed of the serpent, those of the world who saught to kill Christ, and the actual events that led up to Jesus' crucifixion.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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How does one tell the difference between divine providence, appointment with history and self-fulfilling prophecies?

Also, the antagonism between the Jew and the Christian is not something that has developed after their separation, but was already present during Jesus' ministry, the Gospel of John who signified the Jew as the seed of the serpent, those of the world who saught to kill Christ, and the actual events that led up to Jesus' crucifixion.
I certainly agree that a subset of the Jews of Jesus were of their “father, the Devil” just as a portion of Jews in the last days are described as the “synagogue of Satan”. Where I think I diverge is that don’t believe this description applies to the group as a whole but rather, to particular sun-groups.
 






A Freeman

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God did not bring the jews back to their land because of their righteousness... no not at all.
Correct. And, according to Christ, the overwhelming majority of those who are currently occupying the land of Israel are them that say they are "Jews" but are NOT.

Ezekiel 36 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
The verse specifically states (twice) that it is addressed to the 10-tribed "House of Israel", NOT to a tiny remnant of the 2-tribed "House of Judah". The 10-tribed "House of Israel" has NEVER been referred to as the "Jews" at any time, anywhere in the Bible.
 






TokiEl

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What's his holy name?
Exodus 6 2 Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him: “I am YHWH. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Almighty, but by My name YHWH I was not known to them.


This is how Moses wrote YHWH...



It's a short story of a person driving a nail into another person.




Yeshua means YHWH saves.

The jews profaned wherever they went the name YHWH saves or Yeshua which in english is Jesus.
 






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TokiEl

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Correct. And, according to Christ, the overwhelming majority of those who are currently occupying the land of Israel are them that say they are "Jews" but are NOT.
Wrong. According to Christ the pharisees who persecuted Him and christians are of the synagoge of Satan.


The verse specifically states (twice) that it is addressed to the 10-tribed "House of Israel", NOT to a tiny remnant of the 2-tribed "House of Judah". The 10-tribed "House of Israel" has NEVER been referred to as the "Jews" at any time, anywhere in the Bible.
Wrong again.


Isaiah 48 1“Listen to this, O house of Jacob,

you who are called by the name of Israel,

who have descended from the line of Judah,

who swear by the name of YHWH

who invoke the Elohim of Israel—

but not in truth or righteousness—

2who indeed call yourselves after the holy city

and lean on the Elohim of Israel;

YHWH of Hosts is His name.
 






A Freeman

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A Freeman said:
Correct. And, according to Christ, the overwhelming majority of those who are currently occupying the land of Israel are them that say they are "Jews" but are NOT.
Wrong. According to Christ the pharisees who persecuted Him and christians are of the synagoge of Satan.
Are you incompetent or are you simply unable to read what was written?

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans/Edomites and Ashkenazis) the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE (Idumeans/Edomites and Ashkenazis); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Those that say they are Jews but are NOT (i.e. are COUNTERFEITS, pretending to be Jews) are ALL of the synagogue of Satan, whether they were the pharisees (politicians/priests, aka the Sanhedrin) 2000 years ago that manipulated the crucifixion of Jesus, or the counterfeits currently occupying the land of Israel today. By their own admission, over 95% of the occupants in the land of Israel are ASHKENAZIS, which are clearly NOT descended from either the 2-tribed "House of Judah" or the 10-tribed "House of Israel".

Them That Say They are Jews But Are NOT
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/them-which-say-they-are-jews-but-are-not.6663/

A Freeman said:
The verse specifically states (twice) that it is addressed to the 10-tribed "House of Israel", NOT to a tiny remnant of the 2-tribed "House of Judah". The 10-tribed "House of Israel" has NEVER been referred to as the "Jews" at any time, anywhere in the Bible.

Wrong again.

Isaiah 48 1“Listen to this, O house of Jacob,

you who are called by the name of Israel,

who have descended from the line of Judah,

who swear by the name of YHWH

who invoke the Elohim of Israel—

but not in truth or righteousness—

2who indeed call yourselves after the holy city

and lean on the Elohim of Israel;

YHWH of Hosts is His name.
You continue to prove your ignorance of Scripture, not knowing the difference between the 10-tribed "House of Israel" and the 2-tribed "House of Judah, WHICH ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT REUNITED IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL TODAY WITH CHRIST AS THEIR KING, AS PROPHESIED in the very next chapter of Ezekiel that you previously cited, which was also specifically addressed to the 10-tribed "House of Israel".

The passage you've cited above from Isaiah 48 is likewise addressed to the House of Jacob/Israel ONLY, which should never be confused with the "Jews" (which describes those descended from the 2-tribed "House of Judah") as the two terms are NOT interchangeable.

Here is where Jacob/Israel himself put his name on the sons of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh), and prophesied that they would grow into a MULTITUDE in the midst of the earth (not 0.1% of the world's population), with the descendants of Ephraim becoming a multitude or Commonwealth (Eph. 2:12) of NATIONS (plural), not just one tiny country in the Middle East.

Genesis 48:16-19
48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and LET MY NAME [Israel] BE NAMED ON THEM (let Ephraim and Manasseh be called Israel), and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations.

Here is where the united 12-tribes of Israel split into two SEPARATE kingdoms/houses under Solomon's son Rehoboam, before being taken into captivity SEPARATELY at two DIFFERENT times by two DIFFERENT captors:

1 kings 12:19-24 (read the entire chapter)
12:19 So Israel rebelled against the House of David unto this day.
12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the House of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the House of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the House of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
12:22 But the Word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
12:23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the House of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
12:24 Thus saith the "I AM", Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from Me. They hearkened therefore to the Word of the "I AM", and returned to depart, according to the Word of the "I AM".

The rest of the Old Covenant chronicles the two SEPARATE houses/kingdoms, with their own separate kings, before prophesying in Ezekiel that the two house will only be reunited DURING Christ's Second Coming (NOT before).

Jeremiah 3:6-12 (one of hundreds of references to the two separate houses of Judah and Israel).
3:6 The "I AM" said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot (been unfaithful to Me).
3:7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto Me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it].
3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
3:9 And it came to pass through her making light of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto Me with her whole heart, but in pretence, saith the "I AM".
3:11 And the "I AM" said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah (Jew-dah).
3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the North, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the "I AM"; [and] I will not cause Mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the "I AM", [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.

Ezekiel 37:15-25
37:15 The Word of the "I AM" came again unto me, saying,
37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions (2 Tribes): then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the "House of Israel" his companions (the 10 "Lost" Tribes):
37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand (Genesis 49:10).
37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou [meanest] by these?
37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the [10] tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah (2 tribes), and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, where they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and ONE KING (Christ - Rev. 19:16) shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all (ch. 35:10):
37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions (1 John 3:4): but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
37:24 And My Well-Beloved servant [shall be] King over them; and they all shall have One shepherd (John 10:1-18): they shall also walk in My Judgments, and observe My Statutes, and DO them.
37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My Well-Beloved servant [shall be] their PRINCE (Daniel 10:21) FOR EVER.

Please, for your sake and for the sake of others, learn to destroy your ego/arrogance, before it destroys you (the spirit-Being within). Your ego/human with its carnal mind can NEVER understand the Scriptures (John 3:3-8), as it has just proven yet again.

See also: 12 Tribes of Israel Research
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/twelve-tribes-of-israel-info-research-thread.5480/post-284935

Peace be upon you.
 






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Exodus 6 2 Elohim spoke to Moses and said to him: “I am YHWH. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Almighty, but by My name YHWH I was not known to them.


This is how Moses wrote YHWH...



It's a short story of a person driving a nail into another person.




Yeshua means YHWH saves.

The jews profaned wherever they went the name YHWH saves or Yeshua which in english is Jesus.
How did they profane the name if it is a strict Jewish custom to not pronounce it? It's the reason why they say HaShem ("the name") when referring to him.
 






TokiEl

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How did they profane the name if it is a strict Jewish custom to not pronounce it? It's the reason why they say HaShem ("the name") when referring to him.
Wherever the jews went... they profaned Jesus.

Jesus in hebrew is Yeshua which means YHWH saves.


So when they profane Jesus... they profane YHWH.
 






TokiEl

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Those that say they are Jews but are NOT (i.e. are COUNTERFEITS, pretending to be Jews) are ALL of the synagogue of Satan, whether they were the pharisees (politicians/priests, aka the Sanhedrin) 2000 years ago that manipulated the crucifixion of Jesus, or the counterfeits currently occupying the land of Israel today. By their own admission, over 95% of the occupants in the land of Israel are ASHKENAZIS, which are clearly NOT descended from either the 2-tribed "House of Judah" or the 10-tribed "House of Israel".
You have absolutely no business interpreting God's writ.

Romans 2 28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
 






A Freeman

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You have absolutely no business interpreting God's writ.

Romans 2 28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
I didn't. Christ did.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans) the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE (Idumeans); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 






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