Christian Zionism Discussed

Tidal

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There is a lot of scrolling! What was your actual question?!
Well Riddler Lisa said-
"I didn’t reject Jesus..I just said that God hasn’t rejected His people and in Romans 11 goes on to say that He has plans for them, to bring them back to Himself. We don’t take their place."

So I asked her to explain it but she just threw another couple of riddles at me.
If you can explain it go ahead.. :)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Well Riddler Lisa said-
"I didn’t reject Jesus..I just said that God hasn’t rejected His people and in Romans 11 goes on to say that He has plans for them, to bring them back to Himself. We don’t take their place."

So I asked her to explain it but she just threw another couple of riddles at me.
If you can explain it go ahead.. :)
Well, there is a short answer and a long answer to everything, I guess...

The short answer it that “Israel is “special”, not because of who they are, but because of who He is”...

The generation Of Jews that rejected Jesus and refused to repent was cut off. Yet the national survival of that same people that God promised to Abraham has inexplicably occurred. Despite all the dispersion and persecution, Romans 11 confirms that God hasn’t finished with his “stiff necked” yet chosen people yet. He has made a future appointment in history with them (After the “Times of the Gentiles” are complete), where they will be given one final chance to accept or reject their Messiah.

And the long answer,

 






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Tidal

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...God hasn’t finished with his “stiff necked” yet chosen people yet. He has made a future appointment in history with them (After the “Times of the Gentiles” are complete), where they will be given one final chance to accept or reject their Messiah.

Don't swallow that satanic "Second Chance" claptrap mate, NOBODY gets a second chance whether they're jews or any other Jesus-rejecters.
They had their chance to accept him when they were alive, and if they've still rejected him at the point of death, they go up the spout.

Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (John 5:28/29,Matt 25:46)
 






Tidal

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Search the millennium in the Bible.

Darling, this is a discussion forum, not a "shunt people off to do research forum".. :p
if anybody asks me a question I give them a simple straight easily-understood answer like Jesus did-
"And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12:37)

In fact he had to tell the snooty priests to get their noses out of their heavyweight theological books and simply glance up to see him standing in front of them-
Jesus said- "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Don't swallow that satanic "Second Chance" claptrap mate, NOBODY gets a second chance whether they're jews or any other Jesus-rejecters.
They had their chance to accept him when they were alive, and if they've still rejected him at the point of death, they go up the spout.

Jesus said:- "All in the graves shall come out...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (John 5:28/29,Matt 25:46)
I don’t think you quite follow me... The Jews of Jesus’ day were cut off. AD 70 finished the Temple and the diaspora began. The Jews as a nation will have the opportunity one day to repent and say the words at the end of Matthew 23.
 






Tidal

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..The Jews as a nation will have the opportunity one day to repent and say the words at the end of Matthew 23.

If you mean these words of Jesus-
"You will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matt 23:39),
you seem to have interpreted it as meaning Jesus will return on judgement day and say- "Okay all you jews and all other nonchristians, if you admit you were wrong to reject me, you won't go to hell".
So, according to you none of them would be dumb enough to go on rejecting him, and will shout in chorus- "We don't reject you any more, you're our main man, so now take us to heaven please".

My own logical interpretation is that Jesus will return, graves will be opened and they'll say "Blessed is he", to which he'll reply-
"Whoa, it's too late to accept me now, you had your chance during your lifetimes, so now it's game over for you"


In other words if people die as Jesus-rejecters there's NO second chance-
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
 






Red Sky at Morning

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If you mean these words of Jesus-
"You will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matt 23:39),
you seem to have interpreted it as meaning Jesus will return on judgement day and say- "Okay all you jews and all other nonchristians, if you admit you were wrong to reject me, you won't go to hell".
So, according to you none of them would be dumb enough to go on rejecting him, and will shout in chorus- "We don't reject you any more, you're our main man, so now take us to heaven please".

My own logical interpretation is that Jesus will return, graves will be opened and they'll say "Blessed is he", to which he'll reply-
"Whoa, it's too late to accept me now, you had your chance during your lifetimes, so now it's game over for you"


In other words if people die as Jesus-rejecters there's NO second chance-
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
I think you have mixed up the notion of personal second chances after death with national second chances at a future point in history. I don’t believe the Bible teaches the former (though those who believe in Universal Reconciliation do) but Romans 11 clearly teaches the latter.
 






Tidal

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I think you have mixed up the notion of personal second chances after death with national second chances at a future point in history. I don’t believe the Bible teaches the former (though those who believe in Universal Reconciliation do) but Romans 11 clearly teaches the latter.

Mate, when people turn up at the pearlies, God WON'T CARE whether they're from Israel or anywhere else, the only thing he will care about is whether they were Christians when they were alive on earth.
If they say "No", Pete the doorman will say to 'em-

"Oppit"


 






Red Sky at Morning

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Mate, when people turn up at the pearlies, God WON'T CARE whether they're from Israel or anywhere else, the only thing he will care about is whether they were Christians when they were alive on earth.
If they say "No", Pete the doorman will say to 'em-

"Oppit"
I quite agree, Jesus is “the door” and the only way back to the Father.

I think the only point that this thread is divided over is whether God will bring the Jews back to their ancient homeland and deal with them there as part of is ultimate dealings with this world. I think He will.

Jeremiah 23

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
 






Tidal

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I think the only point that this thread is divided over is whether God will bring the Jews back to their ancient homeland and deal with them there as part of is ultimate dealings with this world. I think He will..

it don't matter exactly where God will "deal with" the Jews or any other Jesus-rejecters, they'll all be going up the spout regardless..:)
Jesus said-
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces.
You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to" (Matt 23:14/14)

Right Pete?

"Yeah, wot 'e sez"



 






has

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Romans‬ ‭11:1-36‬ ‭‬‬​
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED Y OUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then?

What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, E YES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, D OWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” And David says, “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.” I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO H IM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.”
https://www.bible.com/100/rom.11.1-36.nasb
...and this is exactly what I was talking about with the 144,000 -the Jews who will be saved-, along with the new Convenant (the ingrafted branch). Thanks for proving my point.

But don't get it twisted Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life, no one can come to the Father without Him. (zionists)Jews refusing to acknowledge Him as the rightful son of God and Savior of Humanity won't inherit of the eternal Life. God never rejected Israelites (or intended to do so), Israelites rejected Him.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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...and this is exactly what I was talking about with the 144,000 -the Jews who will be saved-, along with the new Convenant (the ingrafted branch). Thanks for proving my point.

But don't get it twisted Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life, no one can come to the Father without Him. (zionists)Jews refusing to acknowledge Him as the rightful son of God and Savior of Humanity won't inherit of the eternal Life. God never rejected Israelites (or intended to do so), Israelites rejected Him.
I agree with parts of the above, but it is worth pointing out that many more than 144,000 Jews will ultimately repent and that many prophecies indicate the Jews returning in unbelief to their ancient homeland, and a future period of “Jacob’s Trouble” where they are brought to an ultimate valley of decision and moment of choice.
 






Lisa

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...and this is exactly what I was talking about with the 144,000 -the Jews who will be saved-, along with the new Convenant (the ingrafted branch). Thanks for proving my point.

But don't get it twisted Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life, no one can come to the Father without Him. (zionists)Jews refusing to acknowledge Him as the rightful son of God and Savior of Humanity won't inherit of the eternal Life. God never rejected Israelites (or intended to do so), Israelites rejected Him.
Why do you care if the Israelites rejected God? However God hasn’t rejected them and not just the 144,000 either.
 






has

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Why do you care if the Israelites rejected God? However God hasn’t rejected them and not just the 144,000 either.
The fact that I "care" about stuff is absolutely irrelevant to this discourse, but rather what's Biblical or not. Only what the Scriptures say DO care, and what's Biblical or not.
Jews are NOT God chosen people anymore but the whole Church rejoicing in the body of Christ. Anyone rejecting Christ de facto rejects God, that's the whole standpoint of Christianity. Jews reject Christ and thus God and if they maintain in this position they won't inherit of the Tree of Life. Nitpicking around the number of jews ultimately saved doesn't invalidate those facts. (I wish Red Sky at Morning would've brought Biblical back up to his claim...)
 






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Lisa

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The fact that I "care" about stuff is absolutely irrelevant to this discourse, but rather what's Biblical or not. Only what the Scriptures say DO care, and what's Biblical or not.
Jews are NOT God chosen people anymore but the whole Church rejoicing in the body of Christ. Anyone rejecting Christ de facto rejects God, that's the whole standpoint of Christianity. Jews reject Christ and thus God and if they maintain in this position they won't inherit of the Tree of Life. Nitpicking around the number of jews ultimately saved doesn't invalidate those facts. (I wish Red Sky at Morning would've brought Biblical back up to his claim...)
So you care about it because you care about what the Bible says about it?

So you’ve also rejected Romans 11..so you don’t really care what the Bible says then?

The church has been grafted into their olive tree..and they haven’t fallen to be cut out permanently..they’ve stumbled for God to show grace to everyone else in the world..but He will get back to His chosen people.

When God made that covenant with Abraham..He said it was an everlasting covenant between Abraham and his descendants through Issac and Jacob. Everlasting meaning forever...He will forever be their God and He gave them land forever as well.

Genesis‬ ‭17:6-8‬ ‭
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Romans‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The covenant God made is irrevocable...they are still His chosen people and God will deal with His people coming up...He has not rejected them..Romans 11:1..May it NEVER be!!

Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.​
 






has

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So you care about it because you care about what the Bible says about it?

So you’ve also rejected Romans 11..so you don’t really care what the Bible says then?

The church has been grafted into their olive tree..and they haven’t fallen to be cut out permanently..they’ve stumbled for God to show grace to everyone else in the world..but He will get back to His chosen people.

When God made that covenant with Abraham..He said it was an everlasting covenant between Abraham and his descendants through Issac and Jacob. Everlasting meaning forever...He will forever be their God and He gave them land forever as well.

Genesis‬ ‭17:6-8‬ ‭
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Romans‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The covenant God made is irrevocable...they are still His chosen people and God will deal with His people coming up...He has not rejected them..Romans 11:1..May it NEVER be!!

Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.​
"So you care about it because you care about what the Bible says about it?
So you’ve also rejected Romans 11..so you don’t really care what the Bible says then?"


Of course I care about the Bible.
You're hellbent on Romans 11:1. and keep "rejecting" the bunch of verses that totally rebuke your standpoint
Romans 11:1 actually states:
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
And that's pretty much confirms what I said since the beginning : God NEVER casted away Israelites and never intended to do so. Israelites abandoned God, refusing to accept Jesus so they casted THEMSELVES away from God Salvation.

Romans‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The CALLING of God is indeed irrevocable, and yet, human can fail to live up this calling (God anointed King Saul & Samson...) out of rebellion and disobedience. God does His "job", but by their disobedience & rebelliousness, humans in their wickedness can "dodged out" this calling. This is biblical. Look at the Israelites, the promise of "eternal protection" that God did to seem that actually didn't happen BECAUSE of their disobedience, to the point God eventually turned against them, sending war, famine, illnesses etc on their way.
Beside Christians have been CALLED by God too so this verse actually applies for us now.

Stop picking verses to build up a narrative that fits you. The Bible doesn't contradict itself - without accepting Jesus there's no repentance possible.
John 14:3
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jews who don't accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior are NOT saved and do NOT belong to the kingdom of God.


Also Romans 9:6-8 about God's sovereign choice :
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[a] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
You seem unable to grasp that Jews (by the flesh) can be saved as long as they accept Christ. Jews CAN repent. No one has said the olive tree base has been wiped away. We Christians are here BECAUSE of the Jews. We can claim belonging to Israel as much as they did.

My point has been made. I won't repeat myself even further as you seem unwilling to listen. I looked up your post history in this thread and you're more concerned about shoving down your narrative & insulting people than actually listen.
I don't know if you claim being Christian, but the type of doctrine you seem to cater (defending the idea that people not recognizing Jesus as their Lord & savior (like Jews) can be Saved + dismissing the reality of the 2nd Covenant and that the Church is now God's chosen people) is NOT.

This is the last time I bother interacting with you. I am not interested in enabling such foolishness, so I will start ignoring you from now on.
Have a nice day!
 






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