Christian Zionism Discussed

Lisa

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Come now Lisa that means nothing to me so no point. However why don't you read the article that I posted by the Bible institute and not bypass it by parroting the brainwashing.
Here it is again and like I said this deviancy can not be addressed by people of other faiths.
This is my one contribution, in my opinion this is for Christians to sort out.
When we have deviants in Islam we are the ones to sort through them not people of other faiths.

Here is an article that to contradicts your belief that God’s command or promise regarding His remnants, the tribe if Israel and Judah. It is from the bible institute. It seems from my perspective even on the basis of your own religion Christian Zionists stand on shaky ground.

A Brief History Of The Kingdoms Of Israel And Judah

Solving The Mystery Of The Disappearing Hebrews
https://biblicisminstitute.wordpres...-history-of-the-kingdoms-of-israel-and-judah/

Re-post
The War on Christianity, Part II: The Abomination and Blasphemy of Christian Zionism
https://jamesperloff.com/2016/08/31...omination-and-blasphemy-of-christian-zionism/


Foreword
: This post is long. It is long because Christian Zionism is based on a multitude of lies. The bigger the onion, the more the layers we are forced to peel off. I should also note that my paternal ancestors were Russian Jews (see photo below, taken about 1900). My great-grandfather’s name was Abraham Perlovsky. People who criticize Zionism are frequently accused of being motivated by anti-Semitism. As I’m half-Jewish myself, let me be clear that no such feelings impel me. I am unequivocally opposed to racism in any form.
[/QUOTE]
The Bible trumps the Bible institute...sorry.
 






Lisa

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You choose to ignore scripture. You are well aware that Israel has to be gathered from the four corners of the earth due to the fact specific scriptures have been pointed out to you numerous times on numerous occasions in the past.

Ezekiel 37:21 “ Then tell them this is what The Lord says “ I will take the Israelites back from among the nations where they have gone and I will collect them together from every direction and bring them into THEIR LAND.......24 MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING.....they will dwell on the land that I gave to my servant Jacob where your forefathers lived and they will dwell on it FOREVER

Ezekiel 36:24 I will take you from the nations and gather you back from all the lands and bring you into your land I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will become clean. I will cleanse you from all you uncleanliness and from all your disgusting idols I will give you a new heart and new spirit....then you will dwell on the land I gave your forefathers and you will be my people and I will be your God

Ezekiel 39:27 "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel.

Zephaniah 3:20 "At that time I will bring you in, Even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth, When I restore your fortunes before your eyes," Says the LORD.

Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock

Isaiah 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you

Deuteronomy 3:30 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.”

'Thus says the Lord GOD, "When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob.”

This will happen before the eyes of all nations. Everyone will see it. This has been pointed out to you before. I don’t know your motives behind not wanting to believe it but whatever.

Lisa know those are not God’s people in that land
Yahda, in not believing in the NT, you are sadly missing all of the story. And those verses aren’t the only ones in the Bible. Jerusalem will cause a cup of reeling...why do you think that is?
 






Lisa

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How did we all miss the Kingdom of God being restored. I must have slept through the wrath of God. Lol
The kingdom isn’t restored and you would know God’s wrath!
 






Lisa

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How are they not relevant? It's pretty clear that they won't be gathered until they OBEY (and at the moment they're secular and don't obey). Are you having trouble reading or can you put it together yourself without KM or myself needing to hold your hand?
Well, when you move on to other verses you understand that they will return to their land and they will be unbelievers because of what the text tells us...don’t know why that’s so hard to understand. KM needs the verses to be a certain way because of his beliefs.
 






Lisa

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The Bible trumps the Bible institute...sorry.
The Bible institute explains the bible to you.
A Brief History Of The Kingdoms Of Israel And Judah
Solving The Mystery Of The Disappearing Hebrews
https://biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/a-brief-history-of-the-kingdoms-of-israel-and-judah/[/QUOTE]

God explains the Bible to me, the Bible institute may have gone astray, and it looks like it has...so to counter that, one must be good Bereans and read the Bible. If what the Bible institute is saying lines up with what the Bible says is true than its good, if not then its not good. The Bible is the plumb line...
 






Yahda

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The kingdom isn’t restored and you would know God’s wrath!
Joel 3: For look ! IN THOSE DAYS AND IN THAT TIME when I bring BACK the captives of Judah and Jerusalem I will also gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel For they scattered them among the nations and they divided up my land among themselves....

V6 and the people of Judah and Jerusalem you have sold to the Greeks in order to remove them FAR from their territory. Here I am rousing them from the place you have sold them and I will BRING REPAYMENT back on your heads and I will sell your sons and daughters into the hand of the people of Judah and they will sell them to the men of Sheba to a nation far away. For the Lord himself has spoke !

V9 proclaim this among the nations. Prepare for WAR

You very well know that none of this has occurred.

Anyway. I’m more interested in your motives as to why you refuse to believe it ?
 






Lisa

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Joel 3: For look ! IN THOSE DAYS AND IN THAT TIME when I bring BACK the captives of Judah and Jerusalem I will also gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel For they scattered them among the nations and they divided up my land among themselves....

V6 and the people of Judah and Jerusalem you have sold to the Greeks in order to remove them FAR from their territory. Here I am rousing them from the place you have sold them and I will BRING REPAYMENT back on your heads and I will sell your sons and daughters into the hand of the people of Judah and they will sell them to the men of Sheba to a nation far away. For the Lord himself has spoke !

V9 proclaim this among the nations. Prepare for WAR

You very well know that none of this has occurred.

Anyway. I’m more interested in your motives as to why you refuse to believe it ?
I just said the kingdom isn’t restored. You are talking about God’s kingdom? The Millenium?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Backing up a bit from the cut and thrust of this debate, I can't help but think about some of the behaviours I have observed in various parents I have met. Let me explain...

Jenny's son Tom may be a bit of a tearaway, but Jenny loves him and usually sees the best in his actions. One day he is accused of kicking a football through the school window. Jenny in incredulous "My Tom would never have done that", she insists.

Paul, at the same school has a daughter Sarah - she can never impress him. One day she wins the class prize for literature and the grumpy father says "That's not Sarah - she must have copied from someone!".

The point I am attempting to make is that God and his actions are external to our "religious" formulations. If he is real, he is sovereign and will do his own will regardless of what is said on VCF ;-)
 






rainerann

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I think it does have to be this way. If not, why have scripture talking about the cup of reeling in Jerusalem? Have you never read the Bible? Things are messy.

The Bible isn’t just about the saved through Jesus, its also about God’s chosen people the Jews and how they come back to God in the end. God intends to keep his part of the covenant to be their God forever. He is faithful even when we are not, and thank God for that, don’t ya think?
I would strongly disagree with this. The whole point of calling Abraham was so that how the Messiah came into the world to restore the creation could be traced back to a righteous man. Favoring Abraham was so that the world could have a savior through Christ. That is entirely the point of the law and the prophets and the New Testament.

It is recognizing this that we become free of supporting these tribal differences that cause us to judge people in ways that create strife and oppression.

There is a group called Shen Yun that performs traditional Chinese dance touring the US. It is absolutely beautiful and they say on their website that China was once called, "the land of the divine."

"In ancient times, China was known as the Land of the Divine. Everyone, from emperors to the common people, believed that their culture was a gift from heaven. They lived in harmony with the universe and saw a connection among all things. Traditional Chinese culture carried these principles for thousands of years — until this world was lost." http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/entertainment/2017/01/23/shen-yun-bringing-land-divine-back-life/96507402/

Therefore, the favor that was shown to Abraham was for the sole purpose of bringing in the Messiah who would be saved through Christ, not about showing favortism or suggesting that one race has more rights than another. There is no reason to not believe that this true and that the Chinese culture was a gift from God unless we are trying to assert the superiority of the Jews over and above the Chinese people. This is not the point of the law and this is demonstrated by sending the people into exile when they are disobedient.

The Bible was always about the restoring creation that has been separated because of the fall. All I hear from Christian Zionists is that the world to come will be filled with division between those who are Jew and those who are not. In fact, this is the way the Zionists interpret the prophecy in order to continue to reject Christ as Messiah and assume that scripture at some point leads to a time where the church will be considered a second class citizen in comparison with the status of the Jews. So the interpretation of scipture you are using comes from the interpretation of people who reject Christ while you reject the interpretation of the people who accept Him and are subsequently given the Holy Spirit who provides wisdom.

So when I read about the cup of reeling, I see that this is a judgment for disobedience and I refuse to support it no matter who they are. We are told that we are a priesthood according to the writings of Peter. Does a priesthood that serves the Messiah encourage war at any point in time? What do you think Peter would say if he were here today? Do you really think he would be a Zionist?
 






Last edited:

Daciple

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to what degree does this characterisation represent the straightforward reading of the Bible
Very very poorly, unfortunately Christian Zionism is the most prevalent teaching in Modern Christianity, almost on par with Jesus is God and the Trinity. Very few Churches and Denominations teach something apart from Pre Trib Pre Millennial Eschatology which essentially is rooted in and the base of Christian Zionism. In this question of the bullet points to what degree does that represent straightforward reading of the Bible here is my perspective:

God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
Is there a possibility if one ascribes to Pre Millennial doctrine that there will be a restoration of Israel? Yes I believe that can be understood, does modern Israel in anyway fulfill those prophecies? Not at all.

Godhas two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
Absolutely not, there has always been only one way and one plan for Salvation, Jesus Christ. Absolutely no Jew is going to Heaven that doesnt acknowledge Christ as Savior.

Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
I dont agree or disagree, however I dont see how this can possibly be part of Christian Zionism as CZ is quite wrapped up in Politics. I tend to lean more towards the Bible telling us that the Kingdom we ought to worry about is the Kingdom of Christ of which is not of this World.

God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
I do believe we are in a period of Grace, but to preclude this is correct is to from my understanding acknowledge that the next "dispensation" is the whole garbage of God letting Jews into Heaven because they are Jews which again is a Horrible and False Doctrine.

The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
What is failure? The Church will never fail, it is the Bride of Christ how can it possibly fail? Jesus comes and gets the Bride seems like the Church gets exactly what it desires!!! If thats failing then count me in as desiring to be apart of that failure...

The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
I believe that if one agrees with Pre Millennial Doctrine then yes there will be a Tribulation that will come upon the World, however I wholly disagree that the Bible in anyway hints to a Pre Trib Secret Rapture. Once the Church is gone there is no space for Repentance, once Grace is gone there is no space for Repentance, Christ comes back to pour out Wrath all that are here during the Wrath wont even desire to seek Repentance. I dont believe that the Bible says anything concerning PreTrib Rapture...

Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.
I wouldnt call it a Jewish era, as, if one accepts Pre Millennial Doctrine then the Church will be here ruling as Co Heirs with Christ, and again I dont believe there is any Jewishness needed or seen. There is no Jew or Greek in Christ point blank, it will simply be a time of Christs Reign over the Physical World...

accurately reflect the beliefs of those others would label as "Christian Zionists".
I think for the most part this accurately represents Christian Zionism, save the dont bother with Politics which seem very Antithetical to the Christian Zionism as it is a Political Movement to establish and support Israel in any and everything it does.
 






Lisa

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I would strongly disagree with this. The whole point of calling Abraham was so that how the Messiah came into the world to restore the creation. Favoring Abraham was so that the world could have a savior through Christ. That is entirely the point of the law and the prophets and the New Testament.

It is recognizing this that we become free of supporting these tribal differences that cause us to judge people in ways that create strife and oppression.

There is a group called Shen Yun that performs traditional Chinese dance touring the US. It is absolutely beautiful and they say on their website that China was once called, "the land of the divine."

"In ancient times, China was known as the Land of the Divine. Everyone, from emperors to the common people, believed that their culture was a gift from heaven. They lived in harmony with the universe and saw a connection among all things. Traditional Chinese culture carried these principles for thousands of years — until this world was lost." http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/entertainment/2017/01/23/shen-yun-bringing-land-divine-back-life/96507402/

Therefore, the favor that was shown to Abraham was for the sole purpose of bringing in the Messiah who would be saved through Christ, not about showing favortism or suggesting that one race has more rights than another. There is no reason to not believe that this true and that the Chinese culture was a gift from God unless we are trying to assert the superiority of the Jews over and above the Chinese people. This is not the point of the law and this is demonstrated by sending sending the people into exile when they are disobedient.

The Bible was always about the restoring creation that has been separated because of the fall. All I hear from Christian Zionists is that the world to come will be filled with division between those who are Jew and those who are not. In fact, this is the way the Zionists interpret the prophecy in order to continue to reject Christ as Messiah and assume that scripture at some point leads to a time where the church will be considered a second class citizen in comparison with the status of the Jews. So the interpretation of scipture you are using comes from the interpretation of people who reject Christ while you reject the interpretation of the people who accept Him and are subsequently given the Holy Spirit who provides wisdom.

So when I read about the cup of reeling, I see that this is a judgment for disobedience and I refuse to support it no matter who they are. We are told that we are a priesthood according to the writings of Peter. Does a priesthood that serves the Messiah encourage war at any point in time? What do you think Peter would say if he were here today? Do you really think he would be a Zionist?
I know what Jesus would say....
“And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” Matthew 24:4-14

Sounds like war is gonna happen and terrible things are gonna happen....


Edit: and God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendants are everlasting...not temporary
 






Serveto

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Backing up a bit from the cut and thrust of this debate, I can't help but think about some of the behaviours I have observed in various parents I have met. Let me explain...

Jenny's son Tom may be a bit of a tearaway, but Jenny loves him and usually sees the best in his actions. One day he is accused of kicking a football through the school window. Jenny in incredulous "My Tom would never have done that", she insists.

Paul, at the same school has a daughter Sarah - she can never impress him. One day she wins the class prize for literature and the grumpy father says "That's not Sarah - she must have copied from someone!".

The point I am attempting to make is that God and his actions are external to our "religious" formulations. If he is real, he is sovereign and will do his own will regardless of what is said on VCF ;-)
Seriously, I am so glad that you are here.
 






rainerann

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I know what Jesus would say....
“And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” Matthew 24:4-14

Sounds like war is gonna happen and terrible things are gonna happen....


Edit: and God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendants are everlasting...not temporary
So you agree that the end is characterized by disobedience? So then it is safe to say without fear of consequence that this is an example of disobedience.

Also, God's covenant with Abraham is everlasting. This covenant precedes the law of Moses. The law of Moses was not everlasting. What we are presently doing in supporting the creation of Israel is supporting the false teaching that the law of Moses was everlasting. According to Christianity, we know that the law was fulfilled through Christ. This is evidenced by the struggle Israel has in establishing itself in the land. So there is a difference between saying that there is an everlasting covenant and supporting a reinstitution of the law of Moses.

Also, to say that God has an everlasting covenant with Abraham is to say that there are countless people out there right now who are descendants of Abraham who had forfeited the privilege of being called a Jew by converting to Christianity at one point. In truth, there is no way to know who these people are, so we are deceiving ourselves into thinking that practicing the law of Moses identifies you as a descendent of Abraham that deserves to return to the land.

In truth, there are many more who are just as deserving according to this criteria. What this present state is doing is disobedient. This is allowed by God. When the judgment for this disobedience is complete, there will be a way to know who is going to inherit the benefits of the everlasting covenant made to Abraham. You cannot identify a descendent of Abraham according to the visual presentation of the practice of Judaism. That is just absurd.
 






Lisa

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So you agree that the end is characterized by disobedience? So then it is safe to say without fear of consequence that this is an example of disobedience.

Also, God's covenant with Abraham is everlasting. This covenant precedes the law of Moses. The law of Moses was not everlasting. What we are presently doing in supporting the creation of Israel is supporting the false teaching that the law of Moses was everlasting. According to Christianity, we know that the law was fulfilled through Christ. This is evidenced by the struggle Israel has in establishing itself in the land. So there is a difference between saying that there is an everlasting covenant and supporting a reinstitution of the law of Moses.

Also, to say that God has an everlasting covenant with Abraham is to say that there are countless people out there right now who are descendants of Abraham who had forfeited the privilege of being called a Jew by converting to Christianity at one point. In truth, there is no way to know who these people are, so we are deceiving ourselves into thinking that practicing the law of Moses identifies you as a descendent of Abraham that deserves to return to the land.

In truth, there are many more who are just as deserving according to this criteria. What this present state is doing is disobedient. This is allowed by God. When the judgment for this disobedience is complete, there will be a way to know who is going to inherit the benefits of the everlasting covenant made to Abraham. You cannot identify a descendent of Abraham according to the visual presentation of the practice of Judaism. That is just absurd.
If you are a Christian converted from Judaism, why do you care about forfeiting the priveledge of being called a Jew?
God knows who the descendants are...and I believe they are back in the land of Israel, I don’t need to have them take a test to know that, I just know what events are going to happen in Israel in the last times. Israel being back in the land is one of those end time events..and boy it has set off a chain of events that has angered the nations just like the Bible said it would...how can I think otherwise?
 






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