Christian Zionism Discussed

Vytas

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Truth is inconvenient at times. If you are looking to the signs of the times it’s important that you know the truth, don’t you think?
I remember my first visit in charismat church, after the service pastor came to me to say hello, he asked how I liked the service which was 10 out of 10, he asked what are my beliefs, and I confused started explain to him that Im not the biggest Israel supporter, because there was a lot of praise to Israel over the course of Bible study. He stopped me with a laugh and said oh stop talking, same God we worship, that's what really matters. Don't know why but those words had big impact on me. I was impressed. Somebody has mistakes in their beliefs ? But who doesn't and who is perfect ?
 





Awoken2

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It bothers me how people who believe in nothing religiously can have their posts liked by the same people who are in fact very spiritual in their religion of choice.
Well it's blatantly obvious by now that my posts bothers you but you don't have to start having a swipe at people who like the content I post.

More to the point, why does it bother you?

A single poster on a forum should not be tarnished with the label of being a religious "hater" especially when that said poster spends quite a lot of time posting information relating to the subversion of relgion by secret societies who's sole intention it is to destroy it from within.

If you are so protective of religion why aren't you exposing these people instead of fixating on me all the time?
 





Lisa

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I remember my first visit in charismat church, after the service pastor came to me to say hello, he asked how I liked the service which was 10 out of 10, he asked what are my beliefs, and I confused started explain to him that Im not the biggest Israel supporter, because there was a lot of praise to Israel over the course of Bible study. He stopped me with a laugh and said oh stop talking, same God we worship, that's what really matters. Don't know why but those words had big impact on me. I was impressed. Somebody has mistakes in their beliefs ? But who doesn't and who is perfect ?
No offense @Vytas, but I think you’ve misunderstood that pastor. The Jews and the Christians do indeed have the same God...but that’s not to say that everyone else worships that God. The Jews have fallen away from their God and that has let the gentiles into God’s covenant with the Jews. We are grafted into the Olive tree.

However, to follow the Christian God is a specific thing. Yes people can be mistaken in their beliefs and I’m not saying a catholic couldn’t become a Christian, but if they did they couldn’t stay a catholic. God is always leading people towards the truth...we worship in truth.

The catholic faith has many lies and a different gospel actually. They’ve taken the name of Jesus and made a whole new gospel out of it. That’s why I said what I said, catholics dying (and I’m not happy about it, it’s sad) but it isn’t the same as Christians dying for the faith and in particular if you are keeping an eye on end times events, you could get the wrong impression of the signs of the times. That’s the problem with calling the people dying in the Middle East, Christians.
 





Red Sky at Morning

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In other words, there will be wars between and among the races, but woe betide that person who breaks taboo and discusses them in terms of race, because he runs the risk of being labeled a racist.
I don’t say I support wars of this sort, but it struck me as an interesting variant on the word translated as “nations” as people increasingly seem to assemble and identify more by race and religion than by purely national identities these days...
 





Vytas

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No offense @Vytas, but I think you’ve misunderstood that pastor. The Jews and the Christians do indeed have the same God...but that’s not to say that everyone else worships that God. The Jews have fallen away from their God and that has let the gentiles into God’s covenant with the Jews. We are grafted into the Olive tree.

However, to follow the Christian God is a specific thing. Yes people can be mistaken in their beliefs and I’m not saying a catholic couldn’t become a Christian, but if they did they couldn’t stay a catholic. God is always leading people towards the truth...we worship in truth.

The catholic faith has many lies and a different gospel actually. They’ve taken the name of Jesus and made a whole new gospel out of it. That’s why I said what I said, catholics dying (and I’m not happy about it, it’s sad) but it isn’t the same as Christians dying for the faith and in particular if you are keeping an eye on end times events, you could get the wrong impression of the signs of the times. That’s the problem with calling the people dying in the Middle East, Christians.
They are humans first, none of my business their beliefs. All im getting here is people are persecuted for their faith...What would be your last words for someone beheaded for their faith by Isis. Would you examine their belief system ? Or would you try to encourage or say something positive?
 





Serveto

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I don’t say I support wars of this sort, but it struck me as an interesting variant on the word translated as “nations” as people seem to assemble and identify more by race and religion than by purely national identities these days...
For some, race and religion seem intertwined. I think, for instance, that is one thing which makes, and made, the Parable of the Good Samaritan such a radical parable to the staunch ethnonationalists ("Pharisees") to whom, as I recall from Sunday School days, it was largely directed.
 





Red Sky at Morning

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For some, race and religion seem intertwined. I think, for instance, that is one thing which makes, and made, the Parable of the Good Samaritan such a radical parable to the staunch ethnonationalists ("Pharisees") to whom, as I recall from Sunday School days, it was largely directed.
I think it is worth reminding ourselves that the Gospel is a completely anti-racist message.

Galatians 3:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

It is sad that in certain parts of the world, those who claim the name of Jesus make him “altogether like one of them”, but in contrast, when Joshua meets the “Commander of the Lord’s armies” he gets a surprising response...

Joshua 5:13-15 (NKJV)

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.
 





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Red Sky at Morning

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...the subversion of relgion by secret societies who's sole intention it is to destroy it from within.
It is certainly interesting to note that the Bible really does seem to hint at these groups under the blanket term of the “synagogue of Satan” and to warn people against them.

Revelation 3:9 (KJV)

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

It is a point of note that the Catholic Church has its first Jesuit Pope at present...
 





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Lisa

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They are humans first, none of my business their beliefs. All im getting here is people are persecuted for their faith...What would be your last words for someone beheaded for their faith by Isis. Would you examine their belief system ? Or would you try to encourage or say something positive?
As a Christian, don’t you want to know if its really Christian’s who are dying?

What positive thing can you say or encouraging thing can you say about non Christian’s dying?
 





Vytas

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As a Christian, don’t you want to know if its really Christian’s who are dying?

What positive thing can you say or encouraging thing can you say about non Christian’s dying?
Revelation 21:4 perhaps. That better times are coming, I don't know exactly what I would say, it depends...It didn't took very long a guy on the cross to get saved. You know after Jesus condemned him for his wrong life...
 





Lisa

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Revelation 21:4 perhaps. That better times are coming, I don't know exactly what I would say, it depends...It didn't took very long a guy on the cross to get saved. You know after Jesus condemned him for his wrong life...
Non Christian’s Vytas aren’t going to know revelations 21:4 but revelation 20:11-15, there really is nothing positive or encouraging to say. Perhaps they found the real Jesus at the end..but realistically they died in their sins and probably didn’t give up their religion that had another gospel.

They aren’t the martyrs of revelation 6:9-11
 





Red Sky at Morning

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Twisted morality,
twisted souls,
using twisted means,
for righteous ends?
If my sense of history serves me correctly @DesertRose the nations surrounding Israel in 1948 were the ones that “had” while Israel had nothing. How they survived at all past their first year as a nation was nothing short of miraculous.

Something that has not yet come up in this discussion is a look at Jeremiah 16. Political Zionists may like the first part but very likely will ignore the rest!

14 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 15 but, ‘The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.

[at this point many might finish their quotation, but there is more...]

16 “Behold, I will send for many fishermen,” says the Lord, “and they shall fish them;

[this suggests a “pull” towards Israel. Many left Russia is the 80s and also Ethiopia as a film I watched on Netflix shows]


...and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

[This suggests that after the “pull” will come a “push” and the Jews will be driven from many nations back to their own land]

17 For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes. 18 And first I will repay double for their iniquity and their sin, because they have defiled My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable idols.”

[many political Zionists might have been persuaded into thinking that their return to the land a stamp of approval, rather than appointment with God’s judgement]

19 O Lord, my strength and my fortress,
My refuge in the day of affliction,
The Gentiles shall come to You
From the ends of the earth and say,
“Surely our fathers have inherited lies,
Worthlessness and unprofitable things.”
[despite judgement they are not destroyed and will ultimately show God to the surrounding nations]
 





Vytas

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For some, race and religion seem intertwined. I think, for instance, that is one thing which makes, and made, the Parable of the Good Samaritan such a radical parable to the staunch ethnonationalists ("Pharisees") to whom, as I recall from Sunday School days, it was largely directed.
I think I got very wrong impression about US Sunday schools from movies...But knowing your agendas it's probably not Sunday school you learned it from.
 





Vytas

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Non Christian’s Vytas aren’t going to know revelations 21:4 but revelation 20:11-15, there really is nothing positive or encouraging to say. Perhaps they found the real Jesus at the end..but realistically they died in their sins and probably didn’t give up their religion that had another gospel.

They aren’t the martyrs of revelation 6:9-11
I would probably get them better treatment than to say verse numbers :)
 





elsbet

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Revelation 21:4 perhaps. That better times are coming, I don't know exactly what I would say, it depends...It didn't took very long a guy on the cross to get saved. You know after Jesus condemned him for his wrong life...
Good point.
 





DesertRose

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my sense of history serves me correctly @DesertRose the nations surrounding Israel in 1948 were the ones that “had” while Israel had nothing. How they survived at all past their first year as a nation was nothing short of miraculous.
Hi Red, The twisted morality and unjust means I was referring to are those religious people who are handmaidens for the Empire's unjust wars for Israel.
However, you and I both know that Palestine was under the British mandate and that they were well protected by British bayonets......
You know this and we have covered this ground before.....
Here we can have 2 excerpts from the words of Mahatma Gandhi on this matter:

"It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French."

and:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I should not wait for! the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but
would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my example.... ...

And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it in the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart.

The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the Jewish heart... They will find the world opinion in their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."
for more:
https://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.htm
 





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