Christian Zionism Discussed

Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
1,458
Likes
729
According to the Bible, the House of Judah was made up of all the Jews that wanted to serve God, and the House of Israel was made up of the idolators.
The House of Israel, as a result of their idolatry, were then taken into captivity in Assyria as a punishment for their sins.

But the House of Judah then also turned out to be idolatrous not very long afterwards. Note God's opinion about Judah as spoken through Jeremiah (3:6-11; 11:9-10).

Excerpt:
If there is one thing that is made abundantly clear by the Gospel narrative, it is this, that the influence of Jesus with the people was so great that the Sanhedrin did not dare to arrest him openly.

The triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem had placed the Jewish authorities in a very awkward predicament. If they arrested Jesus they would themselves be in danger from the mob; if, on the other hand, they failed to arrest him, the mob might rise against the Roman garrison and set Jesus up as King (Dan. 9:24). In either case there would be serious rioting, and for this the Roman governor would hold them responsible.

Faced with this dilemma, they decided that they must shelter themselves behind the power of Rome. If they could only arrest Jesus without danger to themselves, they would try him behind closed doors; they would then take him to Pilate, and say that they had found him guilty of heading an insurrection, and demand his immediate execution.

Note God's opinion about Judah as spoken through Jeremiah (3:6-11; 11:9-10) almost six hundred years previously, when the conspiracy of the Hidden Hand had first been revealed by God to Jeremiah; confirmed by Ezekiel (22:25) and which conspiracy was, six hundred years later, aimed against Jesus:-

Jeremiah 3:6 The "I AM" said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot (been unfaithful to Me).
3:7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto Me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it].
3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
3:9 And it came to pass through her making light of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto Me with her whole heart, but in pretence, saith the "I AM" (Matt. 15:8).
3:11 And the "I AM" said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah (Jew-dah).

11:9 And the "I AM" said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
11:10 They are turned back to the inequities of their forefathers, which refused to hear My words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the House of Israel and the House of Judah have broken My Covenant which I made with their fathers.

Ezekiel 22:25 [There is] a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

It was at this juncture that Judas went to the chief priests, and offered to show them how Jesus might be arrested in absolute secrecy. Needless to say, his offer was accepted. But the opportunity to put it into practice did not occur until the following Tuesday evening, which was the Feast of the Passover.

On that day Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples, and late in the evening went out of the city to a garden near the village of Gethsemane. In pitch-black darkness, broken only by the fitful light of lanterns and torches, Jesus was arrested by officers and men of the Temple Guard. This was in the very early hours of Wednesday morning (Dan. 9:26-27 - 21st of April in 34 AD). By nine o'clock the same morning he had been nailed to the cross, and by three o'clock in the afternoon he was dead.

The Jewish authorities, inspired by the infamous Hidden Hand, rejected Jesus, knowing full well that he claimed to be the Messiah, and that every circumstance of his life proved his claims to be true; and they laid themselves under an age-long curse, when they cried, 'His blood be on us, and on our children.'

He was rejected, as we have already seen, because he preached the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, not to the Jews alone, but to all the seed of Jacob, for the benefit of all mankind. The real struggle had been between Jesus and the Hidden Hand, and the Hidden Hand thought they had triumphed.

But the crime of the Crucifixion was already working out the purposes of God. On the following Saturday (3 days and 3 nights - 72 hours later), Jesus rose triumphantly from the dead; and for the next forty days was occupied in setting up his Community.
All the children of Israel offered sacrifices for all the tribes of Israel. How do you square this with your theory that it was only Judah that returned from captivity?
It could not have been all the children of Israel since the majority of Israel had not returned from captivity in Assyria. Therefore those Israelites were elsewhere and not there in Jerusalem. The ones who were there though, from the remnant that had returned from the Babylonian captivity made sacrifices for all 12 tribes.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
The House of Israel, as a result of their idolatry, were then taken into captivity in Assyria as a punishment for their sins.

But the House of Judah then also turned out to be idolatrous not very long afterwards. Note God's opinion about Judah as spoken through Jeremiah (3:6-11; 11:9-10).
If you are going to be taken seriously, you need to address the verses that explicitly state that faithful members of all the tribes of Israel went to Jerusalem to honour God with sacrifices and to support King Rehoboam. Your premise is that every tribe other than Judah and Benjamin (and Levi) were a part of the House of Israel, and that they were all taken out of the promised land into captivity, never to return, and that the House of Judah consisted only of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (and Levi). If your theory is solid, you must have a clear answer to the verses I posted.

It could not have been all the children of Israel since the majority of Israel had not returned from captivity in Assyria. Therefore those Israelites were elsewhere and not there in Jerusalem. The ones who were there though, from the remnant that had returned from the Babylonian captivity made sacrifices for all 12 tribes.
The point remains that you say it was just a remnant of Judah (and Benjamin) (and the Levites) that returned to the promised land, while the other 9 10 tribes were scattered elsewhere. Yet the Bible says that the children of Israel were in Jerusalem, which implies it was more than just Judah. The term Jew, which, according to you, just means those of the House of Judah, was available. Why didn't Ezra use it? Why did he make the point of saying "the children of Israel", if it was just the House of Judah?

While you're at it, if the other 9 10 tribes had forsaken God and were written off, why would the remnant of the House of Judah make sacrifices for them? Why would the Jews make sacrifices for the tribes who rejected God and were not even there? Why would God accept the sacrifices? To a Bible student, that should make no sense, and the Bible explains why.

In 2 Chronicles 30, King Hezekiah of the southern kingdom issued a call for all Israel and Judah, both the northern and southern kingdoms, to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover. He didn't say, "Stay where you are, and we'll sacrifice a goat for you." No, to properly observe the feasts and sacrifices that God commanded, and to be covered by the atonement of the sacrifice, it was required that every person physically be there. This is spelled out very clearly in Deuteronomy 30, as well as other places. There is no such thing as offering sacrifices for disobedient Jews who not only remain in their disobedience, but aren't even there at the time the sacrifice takes place. If sacrifices were being offered for the twelve tribes, the twelve tribes were there.

By the way, 2 Chronicles 30 is another place that hits your theory about the tribes pretty hard. In response to Hezekiah's call for the faithful, the Bible tells us:

2 Ch 30:11
Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.

The verses I have shown you prove that when the Israelites of the House of Judah finally went into the Babylonian captivity, there were Israelites from every tribe among them. And when the remnant returned, when the Temple was rebuilt, and they began sacrificing again, each tribe was represented.
 





Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
1,458
Likes
729
If you are going to be taken seriously, you need to address the verses that explicitly state that faithful members of all the tribes of Israel went to Jerusalem to honour God with sacrifices and to support King Rehoboam.
What those verses say are not being disputed by me. What we do see though, is that after this separation, God still continues to refer to the two families or houses (of Israel and of Judah) and calling both to repent, so they still have to exist.

Jeremiah
3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
3:9 And it came to pass through her making light of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto Me with her whole heart, but in pretence, saith the "I AM" (Matt. 15:8).
3:11 And the "I AM" said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah (Jew-dah).

God also said that He will not cast away the seed of Jacob, again speaking of both Israel and Judah:

Jeremiah
33:23 Moreover the Word of the "I AM" came to Jeremiah, saying,
33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families (Israel and Judah) which the "I AM" hath chosen, He hath even cast them off? thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
33:25 Thus saith the "I AM"; If My Covenant [be] not with day and night, [and if] I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, [so] that I will not take [any] of his seed [to be] rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
While you're at it, if the other 9 10 tribes had forsaken God and were written off, why would the remnant of the House of Judah make sacrifices for them?
God said through Jeremiah that He put both Israel and Judah away. It does not say they were written off.

Judah was eventually found to be no better than Israel and according to God's opinion in Jeremiah, they were found to be less justified:

Jeremiah
3:11 And the "I AM" said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah (Jew-dah).
3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the North, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the "I AM"; [and] I will not cause Mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the "I AM", [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the "I AM" thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed My voice, saith the "I AM".
3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the "I AM"; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Throughout this passage, God refers to the House of Israel (10 tribes) as "backsliding Israel" and then says,

"Turn, O backsliding children, saith the "I AM"; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:" (Jeremiah 3:14)

So clearly, God in His Great Mercy, even though they were put away and cast off, has not caused them to be written off.
why would the remnant of the House of Judah make sacrifices for them? Why would the Jews make sacrifices for the tribes who rejected God and were not even there? Why would God accept the sacrifices?
As above.
By the way, 2 Chronicles 30 is another place that hits your theory about the tribes pretty hard. In response to Hezekiah's call for the faithful, the Bible tells us:

2 Ch 30:11Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.
The verses I have shown you prove that when the Israelites of the House of Judah finally went into the Babylonian captivity, there were Israelites from every tribe among them.
Thank you. This has been interesting to consider. Based on them making sacrifices for all of the tribes, as you have pointed out, it would therefore also make sense for members of the other tribes to also have been present there. But, it would not just be for them alone, because even though God was displeased with the rest of the House of Israel, they were certainly not "written off" as God is Merciful, but were sent into captivity to be punished for their sins instead.
And when the remnant returned, when the Temple was rebuilt, and they began sacrificing again, each tribe was represented.
Possibly, but in Ezra it is also mentioned that when the remnant returned there was uncertainty about many because they could not prove their lineage (Ezra 2:59-62, 6:21, 9:1-2, 10:13).

And if we then jump forwards to Jesus time, look at what He tells the disciples in Matthew:

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the "House of Israel".
10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So according to Jesus, the house of Israel still existed because He told the disciples to go to them.

Matthew
15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the "lost sheep" of the "House of Israel" (the Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel).

(The Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel all subsequently accepted Christ and became known, at least nominally, as Christian Nations).

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (the "10 lost tribes" - the "House of Israel").
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this Stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

So we also find that Jesus' words are confirming what God had said about the two Houses through Jeremiah.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
What those verses say are not being disputed by me. What we do see though, is that after this separation, God still continues to refer to the two families or houses (of Israel and of Judah) and calling both to repent, so they still have to exist.
I am not saying they didn't exist, but when the remnant returned from Babylon, that was the nation of Israel. The separation was over. The two kingdoms were gone. That's why Ezra and others referred to the Jews who returned from Babylon as Jews and as Israel. God has always dealt with Israel as one nation. The remnant that returned from Babylon -- which I have already proven from scripture contained members of every tribe of Israel -- was the nation of Israel, the Hebrews, the Jews. How can there be any lost tribes when all the tribes are there? And even if there are Jews from all the tribes scattered abroad, they are still Jews. Do you think Almighty God has lost track of his beloved?

When James wrote his epistle, he addressed it to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. In what sense could he have been doing that if 10 of the tribes were lost? What does "lost tribes" mean, when all the tribes are accounted for, and God is addressing scripture to them?

God said through Jeremiah that He put both Israel and Judah away. It does not say they were written off.
Don't get too hung up on my use of the expression "written off". It's my belief, based on scripture, that the complete nation of Israel is still very much in play. You and others are the ones who say that God's eternal promises to Abraham's physical descendants have been lost or rescinded. Nothing in the Bible supports that idea.

Judah was eventually found to be no better than Israel and according to God's opinion in Jeremiah, they were found to be less justified:

Jeremiah
3:11 And the "I AM" said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah (Jew-dah).
3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the North, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the "I AM"; [and] I will not cause Mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the "I AM", [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the "I AM" thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed My voice, saith the "I AM".
3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the "I AM"; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Throughout this passage, God refers to the House of Israel (10 tribes) as "backsliding Israel" and then says,

"Turn, O backsliding children, saith the "I AM"; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:" (Jeremiah 3:14)

So clearly, God in His Great Mercy, even though they were put away and cast off, has not caused them to be written off.

As above.
You are stuck on the idea that the name Israel means anything other than the entire nation. There was division, but there is no more division. The Bible refers and may refer to the divided nation in a historical or contemporary context, but the New Testament and the ministry of Jesus Christ takes for granted the idea of one complete nation of Israel.

Thank you. This has been interesting to consider. Based on them making sacrifices for all of the tribes, as you have pointed out, it would therefore also make sense for members of the other tribes to also have been present there.
They were required to be there, and Ezra makes it clear they were. And it's also clear God accepted their sacrifice. The Bible says they kept the Passover, and the Lord made them joyful.

For the priests and the Levites were purified together, all of them were pure, and killed the passover for all the children of the captivity, and for their brethren the priests, and for themselves.
And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

Possibly, but in Ezra it is also mentioned that when the remnant returned there was uncertainty about many because they could not prove their lineage (Ezra 2:59-62, 6:21, 9:1-2, 10:13).
The issue with lineage was a problem only when connected to those of the tribe of Levi who were serving in the priesthood, and the ones whose lineage in question were removed from their duties as priests, but not from the nation of Israel.

And if we then jump forwards to Jesus time, look at what He tells the disciples in Matthew:

10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the "House of Israel".
10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So according to Jesus, the house of Israel still existed because He told the disciples to go to them.
The house of Israel has always existed, but it's only in reference to the split that it's used as a contrast to the House of Judah. From Exodus -

For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

- to Acts, at the day of Pentecost, house of Israel means Nation of Israel, the Jews. Read how Peter addresses the assembled Jews.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

(The Ten "Lost" Tribes of Israel all subsequently accepted Christ and became known, at least nominally, as Christian Nations).
There is no reason whatsoever to believe such a thing.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,222
Likes
10,982
Amir Tsarfati, a Messianic Jew recently recorded his testimony.

I hope that the video illustrates the fact that to become a Christian is the most authentically Jewish thing a Jew can do.

 





Joined
Mar 11, 2019
Messages
669
Likes
1,128
For Christian Zionist, a message from One For Israel, a jewish christian, about Zionism.
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-...people-more-than-you-love-the-jewish-messiah/


Please don’t love us (Jewish people) more than you love your Jewish Messiah!
What do I mean?

I am Jewish – that makes me 1 of about 14,000,000.
Also, I was born in Israel (Tel-Aviv) – that takes it down to 1 of about 4,000,000.
Also, I am a native born Israeli-Jewish follower of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah – that now makes me 1 of about only 7,000.

Being part of “the remnant” (Romans 11:1-6) is no easy task. On the one hand, many of my fellow Jews (who only know what the rabbis have told them about Yeshua) tend to look at me as if I have betrayed my heritage and chosen to follow some kind of pagan god. We Messianic Jewish believers are not very popular among the majority of Jewish people here in Israel.

But on the other hand, more and more Christians now base their understanding of God’s plan for Israel on what they see on CNN and BBC – that is to say, not very favorably. We, Israel, are getting less and less popular among the church in the nations too. So I guess it’s safe to say, as the English saying goes, that I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

While I am very encouraged by the support and love for my nation of Israel coming from many of my Christian brothers and sisters around the world, I am also very saddened when I hear/read things from these very people who love my country so much that they don’t seem to think Jewish people even need salvation through Yeshua (Jesus)! Israel may be great, but it’s not perfect – we also need to have our sins paid for, just the same as everybody else. To suggest otherwise is condemning us to an eternity separated from God.

People Who Love Israel to Death

Some good examples can be found in the teachings of the well known ‘Christians United for Israel’ chairman, Pastor John Hagee. In his teachings, Hagee promotes the false idea that Jews do not need a personal relationship with Jesus, but can be saved just by keeping the Old Covenant. Tragically, he said;

“The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation…Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, but not Jews”.
(Pastor John Hagee, interviewd by Julia Duin, “San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles Anti-Semitism,” The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988)


Shocked? I certainly was.

It seems that Hagee fails to understand the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant (nationalistic covenant having nothing to do with personal salvation) that God made with our nation. Nor does Hagee understand the purpose of the Law of Moses; How does Hagee expect Israel to keep the Law of Moses now that we have no priesthood, no temple, and no sacrificial system – all of which comprise the heart and essence of the Law? (and was only meant to lead us to Christ). You see, we cannot separate Moses’ Covenant from Moses’ laws. The laws are merely an outgrowth of the covenant; they cannot stand on their own – just as eating mayonnaise and mustard is pointless without the sandwich itself. (Our new book on the Torah explains that farther). The covenant was ratified by the shedding of blood (Exod 24:8) and was maintained by the blood of the sacrifices upon the altar (Exod 30:10). Without the sacrificial system we are unable to keep Moses’ covenant. Besides, the Bible says that no one is able to keep the Law, nor be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16), therefore no one was ever able to receive salvation through it. It is ONLY the blood of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) that can save us and wash away our sin.

Hagee goes further in his book, “In Defense of Israel”, (which, ironically, ends up being far more of a danger to Israel than a defense):

Hagee says, “The sovereign purpose for Jesus’ life was to be a light to the Gentiles” (p. 133)
But Jesus said that he was sent, “to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matt 15:24)

Hagee says, “there is not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament that says Jesus came to be the Messiah…” (p. 136)
But Jesus said he was the Messiah: “The woman said, “I know that Messiah is coming… Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” (John 4:25-26)

Hagee says, “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews.” (p. 140)
But Jesus said, “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt 22:39)

Hagee says: “He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world.” (p 143)
But Scripture says, “let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

See the problem? Hagee holds to a false teaching called “Wider Hope” (which is a branch of “Dual Covenant Theology”)

The Israel You Might Not Know
The idea promoted by some Christians that it’s fine for Jewish people to continue to reject Yeshua as Messiah grieves me as an Israeli Jew not only because it is heresy, but also because I know a side of Israel that people like Pastor John Hagee doesn’t.

Yeshua, who obviously strongly believed in the Bible, made less of a big deal out of territory and land than he did about taking care of people – especially the poor, the needy, the elderly, widows, orphans, and so on. Yeshua’s message wasn’t at any point a geopolitical one, but a spiritual one (peace in the middle east will not come from Benjamin Netanyahu, nor from Hagee’s CUFI, but can only take place at the foot of the cross, when Jews and Arabs will recognize and put thier trust in the prince of peace).

Again and again, the Hebrew Scriptures emphasize and teach that the nation of Israel must take care of its people, especially the weak, poor and needy.

Yet today, 1 out of every 3 Israeli children suffer from poverty (Israel ranks 4th in child poverty in the developed world). The medical system is collapsing for lack of funds and medical staff (Israel has OECD’s most crowded hospitals). According to Transparency International, corruption in Israel is embarrassingly ranked 60 out of 100. One in four Holocaust survivors suffer from poverty. On multiple occasions this past year, I myself have brought food to Holocaust survivors who face the weekly decision of whether to buy food or to buy necessary medicine. Human trafficking reports rank Israel with 3rd world nations. The sex trade in Israel generates up to $500 million in revenue per year (that is over $60 a person!) while prostitution is legal and widely available in Israel. In its annual report for 2012, the International Narcotics Control Board lists Israel among the “countries that are major manufacturers, exporters, importers and users of narcotic drugs.” Israel is one of the world’s leaders when it comes to abortions, with 55 babies being killed every day – and our government is the one subsidizing it.

You see, just like anywhere else in the world, our country is comprised of sinful human beings who unfortunately are yet to recognize their need for the Savior. As a result, our country’s immoral decisions are evident. (Just to be clear: I love Israel, and the fact that I am able to criticize my own government proves that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Anywhere else and I would most likely be face to face with Jesus by now.)

As the people of Israel, our hope should not be in our government, nor in the IDF – but in our Savior alone. What God’s heart really delights in is not waving the flag of Israel, or shiny new IDF tanks, or even olive oil purchased from the Promised Land – it is when a human being makes a decision to follow the Messiah. What our people really need is…Yeshua!

So, dear Christians, as an Israeli Jewish follower of Jesus, my challenge for you today is not to love us Jews into hell, but to live up to the biblical mandate of provoking us to jealousy in Yeshua (Romans 11:11). Trust me, I myself am living evidence that it worked 16 years ago, and it’s still working with many other Jews.

Dear Pastor Hagee, I love you as a brother in Christ, yet let me challenge you that my nation Israel doesn’t need your millions of dollars supporting secular causes, (a lot of which ends up with the anti-missionaries who fight us sharing the gospel), nor do we need your political support. What Israel needs is the message of the gospel! What my people need is to hear about Yeshua, our Jewish Savior who gave His life for us so we can find eternal life!

If you agree that the best way to bless Israel, is with Yeshua the Messiah – please SHARE my post!
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,222
Likes
10,982
For Christian Zionist, a message from One For Israel, a jewish christian, about Zionism.
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-...people-more-than-you-love-the-jewish-messiah/


Please don’t love us (Jewish people) more than you love your Jewish Messiah!

What do I mean?

I am Jewish – that makes me 1 of about 14,000,000.
Also, I was born in Israel (Tel-Aviv) – that takes it down to 1 of about 4,000,000.
Also, I am a native born Israeli-Jewish follower of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah – that now makes me 1 of about only 7,000.

Being part of “the remnant” (Romans 11:1-6) is no easy task. On the one hand, many of my fellow Jews (who only know what the rabbis have told them about Yeshua) tend to look at me as if I have betrayed my heritage and chosen to follow some kind of pagan god. We Messianic Jewish believers are not very popular among the majority of Jewish people here in Israel.

But on the other hand, more and more Christians now base their understanding of God’s plan for Israel on what they see on CNN and BBC – that is to say, not very favorably. We, Israel, are getting less and less popular among the church in the nations too. So I guess it’s safe to say, as the English saying goes, that I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

While I am very encouraged by the support and love for my nation of Israel coming from many of my Christian brothers and sisters around the world, I am also very saddened when I hear/read things from these very people who love my country so much that they don’t seem to think Jewish people even need salvation through Yeshua (Jesus)! Israel may be great, but it’s not perfect – we also need to have our sins paid for, just the same as everybody else. To suggest otherwise is condemning us to an eternity separated from God.

People Who Love Israel to Death

Some good examples can be found in the teachings of the well known ‘Christians United for Israel’ chairman, Pastor John Hagee. In his teachings, Hagee promotes the false idea that Jews do not need a personal relationship with Jesus, but can be saved just by keeping the Old Covenant. Tragically, he said;

“The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation…Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, but not Jews”.
(Pastor John Hagee, interviewd by Julia Duin, “San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles Anti-Semitism,” The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988)


Shocked? I certainly was.

It seems that Hagee fails to understand the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant (nationalistic covenant having nothing to do with personal salvation) that God made with our nation. Nor does Hagee understand the purpose of the Law of Moses; How does Hagee expect Israel to keep the Law of Moses now that we have no priesthood, no temple, and no sacrificial system – all of which comprise the heart and essence of the Law? (and was only meant to lead us to Christ). You see, we cannot separate Moses’ Covenant from Moses’ laws. The laws are merely an outgrowth of the covenant; they cannot stand on their own – just as eating mayonnaise and mustard is pointless without the sandwich itself. (Our new book on the Torah explains that farther). The covenant was ratified by the shedding of blood (Exod 24:8) and was maintained by the blood of the sacrifices upon the altar (Exod 30:10). Without the sacrificial system we are unable to keep Moses’ covenant. Besides, the Bible says that no one is able to keep the Law, nor be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16), therefore no one was ever able to receive salvation through it. It is ONLY the blood of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) that can save us and wash away our sin.

Hagee goes further in his book, “In Defense of Israel”, (which, ironically, ends up being far more of a danger to Israel than a defense):

Hagee says, “The sovereign purpose for Jesus’ life was to be a light to the Gentiles” (p. 133)
But Jesus said that he was sent, “to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matt 15:24)

Hagee says, “there is not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament that says Jesus came to be the Messiah…” (p. 136)
But Jesus said he was the Messiah: “The woman said, “I know that Messiah is coming… Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” (John 4:25-26)

Hagee says, “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews.” (p. 140)
But Jesus said, “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt 22:39)

Hagee says: “He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world.” (p 143)
But Scripture says, “let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

See the problem? Hagee holds to a false teaching called “Wider Hope” (which is a branch of “Dual Covenant Theology”)

The Israel You Might Not Know
The idea promoted by some Christians that it’s fine for Jewish people to continue to reject Yeshua as Messiah grieves me as an Israeli Jew not only because it is heresy, but also because I know a side of Israel that people like Pastor John Hagee doesn’t.

Yeshua, who obviously strongly believed in the Bible, made less of a big deal out of territory and land than he did about taking care of people – especially the poor, the needy, the elderly, widows, orphans, and so on. Yeshua’s message wasn’t at any point a geopolitical one, but a spiritual one (peace in the middle east will not come from Benjamin Netanyahu, nor from Hagee’s CUFI, but can only take place at the foot of the cross, when Jews and Arabs will recognize and put thier trust in the prince of peace).

Again and again, the Hebrew Scriptures emphasize and teach that the nation of Israel must take care of its people, especially the weak, poor and needy.

Yet today, 1 out of every 3 Israeli children suffer from poverty (Israel ranks 4th in child poverty in the developed world). The medical system is collapsing for lack of funds and medical staff (Israel has OECD’s most crowded hospitals). According to Transparency International, corruption in Israel is embarrassingly ranked 60 out of 100. One in four Holocaust survivors suffer from poverty. On multiple occasions this past year, I myself have brought food to Holocaust survivors who face the weekly decision of whether to buy food or to buy necessary medicine. Human trafficking reports rank Israel with 3rd world nations. The sex trade in Israel generates up to $500 million in revenue per year (that is over $60 a person!) while prostitution is legal and widely available in Israel. In its annual report for 2012, the International Narcotics Control Board lists Israel among the “countries that are major manufacturers, exporters, importers and users of narcotic drugs.” Israel is one of the world’s leaders when it comes to abortions, with 55 babies being killed every day – and our government is the one subsidizing it.

You see, just like anywhere else in the world, our country is comprised of sinful human beings who unfortunately are yet to recognize their need for the Savior. As a result, our country’s immoral decisions are evident. (Just to be clear: I love Israel, and the fact that I am able to criticize my own government proves that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Anywhere else and I would most likely be face to face with Jesus by now.)

As the people of Israel, our hope should not be in our government, nor in the IDF – but in our Savior alone. What God’s heart really delights in is not waving the flag of Israel, or shiny new IDF tanks, or even olive oil purchased from the Promised Land – it is when a human being makes a decision to follow the Messiah. What our people really need is…Yeshua!

So, dear Christians, as an Israeli Jewish follower of Jesus, my challenge for you today is not to love us Jews into hell, but to live up to the biblical mandate of provoking us to jealousy in Yeshua (Romans 11:11). Trust me, I myself am living evidence that it worked 16 years ago, and it’s still working with many other Jews.

Dear Pastor Hagee, I love you as a brother in Christ, yet let me challenge you that my nation Israel doesn’t need your millions of dollars supporting secular causes, (a lot of which ends up with the anti-missionaries who fight us sharing the gospel), nor do we need your political support. What Israel needs is the message of the gospel! What my people need is to hear about Yeshua, our Jewish Savior who gave His life for us so we can find eternal life!

If you agree that the best way to bless Israel, is with Yeshua the Messiah – please SHARE my post!
The post in musical form, from Joshua Aaron...

 





Joined
Mar 11, 2019
Messages
669
Likes
1,128
The post in musical form, from Joshua Aaron...

This video makes me cry
All the lyrics from the scriptures.
Some Christian misunderstand about supporting Israel. It's not in physical way (politics, etc) but in spiritual way. Bring them back to Jesus. The bible says, "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed"
Bless them with the gospel not with anything else because Israel needs redemption from God.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
7,222
Likes
10,982
For Christian Zionist, a message from One For Israel, a jewish christian, about Zionism.
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-...people-more-than-you-love-the-jewish-messiah/


Please don’t love us (Jewish people) more than you love your Jewish Messiah!

What do I mean?

I am Jewish – that makes me 1 of about 14,000,000.
Also, I was born in Israel (Tel-Aviv) – that takes it down to 1 of about 4,000,000.
Also, I am a native born Israeli-Jewish follower of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah – that now makes me 1 of about only 7,000.

Being part of “the remnant” (Romans 11:1-6) is no easy task. On the one hand, many of my fellow Jews (who only know what the rabbis have told them about Yeshua) tend to look at me as if I have betrayed my heritage and chosen to follow some kind of pagan god. We Messianic Jewish believers are not very popular among the majority of Jewish people here in Israel.

But on the other hand, more and more Christians now base their understanding of God’s plan for Israel on what they see on CNN and BBC – that is to say, not very favorably. We, Israel, are getting less and less popular among the church in the nations too. So I guess it’s safe to say, as the English saying goes, that I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

While I am very encouraged by the support and love for my nation of Israel coming from many of my Christian brothers and sisters around the world, I am also very saddened when I hear/read things from these very people who love my country so much that they don’t seem to think Jewish people even need salvation through Yeshua (Jesus)! Israel may be great, but it’s not perfect – we also need to have our sins paid for, just the same as everybody else. To suggest otherwise is condemning us to an eternity separated from God.

People Who Love Israel to Death

Some good examples can be found in the teachings of the well known ‘Christians United for Israel’ chairman, Pastor John Hagee. In his teachings, Hagee promotes the false idea that Jews do not need a personal relationship with Jesus, but can be saved just by keeping the Old Covenant. Tragically, he said;

“The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation…Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, but not Jews”.
(Pastor John Hagee, interviewd by Julia Duin, “San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles Anti-Semitism,” The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988)


Shocked? I certainly was.

It seems that Hagee fails to understand the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant (nationalistic covenant having nothing to do with personal salvation) that God made with our nation. Nor does Hagee understand the purpose of the Law of Moses; How does Hagee expect Israel to keep the Law of Moses now that we have no priesthood, no temple, and no sacrificial system – all of which comprise the heart and essence of the Law? (and was only meant to lead us to Christ). You see, we cannot separate Moses’ Covenant from Moses’ laws. The laws are merely an outgrowth of the covenant; they cannot stand on their own – just as eating mayonnaise and mustard is pointless without the sandwich itself. (Our new book on the Torah explains that farther). The covenant was ratified by the shedding of blood (Exod 24:8) and was maintained by the blood of the sacrifices upon the altar (Exod 30:10). Without the sacrificial system we are unable to keep Moses’ covenant. Besides, the Bible says that no one is able to keep the Law, nor be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16), therefore no one was ever able to receive salvation through it. It is ONLY the blood of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) that can save us and wash away our sin.

Hagee goes further in his book, “In Defense of Israel”, (which, ironically, ends up being far more of a danger to Israel than a defense):

Hagee says, “The sovereign purpose for Jesus’ life was to be a light to the Gentiles” (p. 133)
But Jesus said that he was sent, “to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matt 15:24)

Hagee says, “there is not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament that says Jesus came to be the Messiah…” (p. 136)
But Jesus said he was the Messiah: “The woman said, “I know that Messiah is coming… Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” (John 4:25-26)

Hagee says, “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews.” (p. 140)
But Jesus said, “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt 22:39)

Hagee says: “He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world.” (p 143)
But Scripture says, “let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

See the problem? Hagee holds to a false teaching called “Wider Hope” (which is a branch of “Dual Covenant Theology”)

The Israel You Might Not Know
The idea promoted by some Christians that it’s fine for Jewish people to continue to reject Yeshua as Messiah grieves me as an Israeli Jew not only because it is heresy, but also because I know a side of Israel that people like Pastor John Hagee doesn’t.

Yeshua, who obviously strongly believed in the Bible, made less of a big deal out of territory and land than he did about taking care of people – especially the poor, the needy, the elderly, widows, orphans, and so on. Yeshua’s message wasn’t at any point a geopolitical one, but a spiritual one (peace in the middle east will not come from Benjamin Netanyahu, nor from Hagee’s CUFI, but can only take place at the foot of the cross, when Jews and Arabs will recognize and put thier trust in the prince of peace).

Again and again, the Hebrew Scriptures emphasize and teach that the nation of Israel must take care of its people, especially the weak, poor and needy.

Yet today, 1 out of every 3 Israeli children suffer from poverty (Israel ranks 4th in child poverty in the developed world). The medical system is collapsing for lack of funds and medical staff (Israel has OECD’s most crowded hospitals). According to Transparency International, corruption in Israel is embarrassingly ranked 60 out of 100. One in four Holocaust survivors suffer from poverty. On multiple occasions this past year, I myself have brought food to Holocaust survivors who face the weekly decision of whether to buy food or to buy necessary medicine. Human trafficking reports rank Israel with 3rd world nations. The sex trade in Israel generates up to $500 million in revenue per year (that is over $60 a person!) while prostitution is legal and widely available in Israel. In its annual report for 2012, the International Narcotics Control Board lists Israel among the “countries that are major manufacturers, exporters, importers and users of narcotic drugs.” Israel is one of the world’s leaders when it comes to abortions, with 55 babies being killed every day – and our government is the one subsidizing it.

You see, just like anywhere else in the world, our country is comprised of sinful human beings who unfortunately are yet to recognize their need for the Savior. As a result, our country’s immoral decisions are evident. (Just to be clear: I love Israel, and the fact that I am able to criticize my own government proves that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Anywhere else and I would most likely be face to face with Jesus by now.)

As the people of Israel, our hope should not be in our government, nor in the IDF – but in our Savior alone. What God’s heart really delights in is not waving the flag of Israel, or shiny new IDF tanks, or even olive oil purchased from the Promised Land – it is when a human being makes a decision to follow the Messiah. What our people really need is…Yeshua!

So, dear Christians, as an Israeli Jewish follower of Jesus, my challenge for you today is not to love us Jews into hell, but to live up to the biblical mandate of provoking us to jealousy in Yeshua (Romans 11:11). Trust me, I myself am living evidence that it worked 16 years ago, and it’s still working with many other Jews.

Dear Pastor Hagee, I love you as a brother in Christ, yet let me challenge you that my nation Israel doesn’t need your millions of dollars supporting secular causes, (a lot of which ends up with the anti-missionaries who fight us sharing the gospel), nor do we need your political support. What Israel needs is the message of the gospel! What my people need is to hear about Yeshua, our Jewish Savior who gave His life for us so we can find eternal life!

If you agree that the best way to bless Israel, is with Yeshua the Messiah – please SHARE my post!
^ If people actually read this post, perhaps they might understand things properly.
 





Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
1,458
Likes
729
I am not saying they didn't exist, but when the remnant returned from Babylon, that was the nation of Israel. The separation was over. The two kingdoms were gone.
This belief is taught in Christian Zionism but it is not true according to the Bible which still talks of the two houses remaining separate until Christ returns. Only then can and will they be re-united (by Christ) and be one single Nation again, as this is promised in Bible prophecy. -

The Hopelessly Flawed Amalgamation Hypothesis Used to Sell Zionism


Even if one was to consider the minute portion of the remnant of the House of Judah that is living amongst the Ashkenazis and Idumean-Edomites in the land of Israel today, they could not possibly represent all of the people of the House of Judah, much less the House of Judah and the House of Israel. Judah is but one tribe, and the two-tribe House of Judah is only Judah and Benjamin, with a few Levites mixed into it, as they are throughout the ten-tribe House of Israel as well. It should therefore be self-evident that Judah could in no way represent the other ten-tribes, who retained the name of ISRAEL and were NEVER referred to as “Jews” ANYWHERE in Scripture.

The House of Israel and the House of Judah have been prophesied to remain SEPARATED until the gathering (Gen. 49:10, Hos. 1:11), when Christ will personally reunite them and be their King (Jer. 3:18, 23:5-6, 33:14-16, Ezek. 37:15-25, Matt. 23:37-39, John 10:16). Clearly there is no king, much less The King of kings (Christ) currently ruling over the land of Israel in the Middle East.

Furthermore, God Himself told us that Judah would wither away to a remnant (Isa. 37:32, Zeph. 2:7, Matt. 21:19), while Israel would be multiplied like “the stars of heaven”, “the sand of the sea” and “the dust of the earth” (Gen. 22:17, Hos. 1:10, Gen. 28:14), becoming a nation AND A COMPANY OF NATIONS (Gen. 35:11) in the latter days. A MULTITUDE (Commonwealth) OF NATIONS in the midst of the Earth (Gen. 48:16-19).

Do any of the descriptions of Israel even remotely sound like the one miniscule country in the Middle East with a population of less than 9 million (< 0.12% of the world’s population)?

Who’s your daddy (John 8:35)?

It should be self-evident just from what’s already been shared that the unholy union between Christianity and anti-Christ Zionism doesn’t work on even the most superficial level. It is a CON, promoted by Satan’s ministers (2 Cor. 11:13-15) working inside both Christianity and Talmudic Judaism to promote Zionism.

The re-union of the twelve tribes is therefore still the subject of Bible prophecy and awaits fulfilment.
That's why Ezra and others referred to the Jews who returned from Babylon as Jews and as Israel. God has always dealt with Israel as one nation. The remnant that returned from Babylon -- which I have already proven from scripture contained members of every tribe of Israel -- was the nation of Israel, the Hebrews, the Jews.
Only those who returned from Babylon became known as the Jews. Abraham was not a Jew.
How can there be any lost tribes when all the tribes are there?
Because the Israel (northern kingdom) still existed as a body of people and the majority of the Israelites were (and are) still living among them.
And even if there are Jews from all the tribes scattered abroad, they are still Jews.
There is no such thing as Jews from all the tribes. The other tribes are not Jews. They are Israelites. Jews and Israelites are not synonymous in the Bible as they refer to two different groups of people.
Do you think Almighty God has lost track of his beloved?
Absolutely not. He knows exactly who they are and where they are even today.

Christian Zionism teaches the (flawed - please see more about this below) idea to Christians that the two kingdoms were/are gone and that the separation ended at that point, but this is simply not in line with what the Bible says.

In fact, this is even acknowledged in the opinion of modern day chief Rabbis -

The excerpt (quoted below) contains the official opinion of a past chief Rabbi of Britain in response to being asked the following two questions:

1. Do the Jews, as generally known, represent the whole twelve tribes of Israel?
2. Does the State of Israel in Palestine constitute a union of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms as a united Israel?

The following reply was received as being the official opinion of the Chief Rabbi:

Dear Sir,
I refer to your letter of the 26th ult. The Jews of today do not represent the whole of the twelve tribes. What happened to the ten tribes who occupied Northern Palestine in Bible times is not definitely known. Various theories have been propounded. Modern Jewry is considered as being descended from the ancient tribe of Judah, and to a lesser extent, the tribe of Benjamin.
Yours truly,
Signed J. H. Taylor, Sec.

Excerpt:
CHAPTER SIX

THE PLAN ATTACKED
Unlike the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, including The Law of the Lord, was wholly conditional, containing such terms as, "thou shalt," and "thou shalt not." Nationally, Israel voluntarily committed herself to the Mosaic Covenant, and thus it became binding upon her. "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord" (Exod. 19:8). Israel was no doubt sincere in her promise to keep her side of the contract. The great enemy of God however, had also his own interest in the proceedings. He had failed thus far to destroy this elect people in many an attempt, and had now failed to prevent Israel from becoming the Kingdom of God on Earth. He therefore planned an offensive against Israel in an attempt to destroy the Kingdom, and so frustrate the great Plan of God. Alas! Israel fell.​
Now God had given to Israel a line of kings known as the Royal House of David, whose throne was promised to be an enduring dynasty. This throne was established by an everlasting covenant. This covenant is set forth in the Second Book of Samuel, chapter seven, and also in the eighty-ninth Psalm. "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as ‘the Sun’ before Me."​
Towards the close of his reign, king Solomon began to be influenced by his great riches and by his alien wives. He gradually introduced certain forms of idolatry and thus brought upon himself the displeasure of God. The subtle hidden hand of Satan is seen opposing the great Master Plan. When Solomon's son Rehoboam came to the throne in 975 B.C., a serious rebellion resulted in the disruption of Israel.​
Ten of the tribes formed themselves into the northern Kingdom of Israel, with the tribe of Ephraim in the leading role (Gen. 48:20). They chose the city of Samaria as their capital, and having revolted against the Royal House of David, they chose a man named Jeroboam as their king. To strengthen his throne, Jeroboam drew ten-tribed Israel away from Divine worship by setting up idolatry, this being an attempt to avoid pilgrimage to Jerusalem of sacred memory. He also set aside The Law of the Lord and replaced it with human legislation. Revolt against the Royal House of David and against the Lord of Heaven was almost complete.​
The tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained true to the Royal House of David, and retained Jerusalem as their capital. There was no real revolt against Divine worship or against the Divine Constitution, but these were soon sadly neglected and often forgotten. The two tribes became known as the southern Kingdom of Judah. The two kingdoms functioned side by side for some time, but they were never again re-united. The re-union of the twelve tribes is still the subject of Bible prophecy and awaits fulfilment.​
The northern Kingdom of Israel continued to exist for some time, but by her disobedience and idolatry she brought upon herself the punitive clauses of The Law. Thus she was condemned to suffer a long period of seven prophetic times of chastisement and banishment from the homeland. It can be shown that:​
A "time" equals 360 years (Soli-lunar reckoning).​
Thus 7 "times" equals 7 x 360 which equals 2,520 years. Since the main body of the northern Kingdom of Israel was carried away by Assyria in 721 B.C., it follows that the period of Divine chastisement for the Northern Kingdom was completed by A.D. 1800. Of the further history of ten tribed Israel, Bible history leaves us entirely without information. Where Bible history ceases, however, Bible prophecy takes up their story, revealing their movements and the important part they were to play in the great Master Plan.​
Over a hundred years later the southern Kingdom of Judah also fell into judgment and was allowed to be carried away captive into Babylon. King Nebuchadnezzar took dominion over Jerusalem in the year 604 B.C., which means that their period of chastisement terminated in A.D. 1917. After seventy years of Judah's captivity, a mere remnant of this Kingdom — less than fifty thousand — returned to Jerusalem and rebuilt the city and The Temple. It is this remnant only that became the nation of the Jews. This fact is of vital importance and can be well proved from the Scriptures. To misunderstand the Scriptures here is to render the major part of Bible prophecy impossible of understanding and it is to confuse the main pattern of the great Plan. The rest of Judah in Babylon, and the whole of the ten tribes in Assyria became "lost" to Bible history. These never returned to Palestine. The remnant who became "Jews" were the people living in Palestine when Christ Jesus, our Lord, was born at Bethlehem, and were subject to the Romans. Christ lived among them and ministered to them the things concerning the great Plan, but they did not believe him, and in the end they put him to death. Forty years later, in A.D. 70, the Romans sacked Jerusalem, destroyed The Temple again and Jewry was scattered among the nations of the world, but they have never been lost to view.​
Another point, the importance of which cannot be over emphasised, is to realise that Divine prophecy always deals with "Israel" and "Judah" as two separate entities, each having quite different functions to perform in the Plan of God. If, in our study of the Master’s Plan, we treat these terms as synonymous, then only hopeless confusion can follow. The ability to define the difference between Israel and Judah, in the Scriptures, is to hold one of the most important keys to the understanding of the whole scheme of God Almighty. In the mind of God there were potentially two separate peoples with two different destinies when Israel came out of Egypt. King David was divinely aware of this, and he wrote, "When Israel went out of Egypt, and the House of Jacob from a people of strange language; Judah was His SANCTUARY, and Israel His DOMINION" (Ps. 114:1-2).​
Josephus, the Jewish historian, also referred to these sections of Israel as being two separate entities. To quote: "So he (Cyrus) called for the most eminent Jews that were in Babylon, and said unto them, that he gave them leave to go back to their own country, and to rebuild their city Jerusalem and The Temple of God . . . When Cyrus said this to the Israelites, the rulers of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with the Levites and priests, went in haste to Jerusalem; yet did many of them stay at Babylon, as not willing to leave their possessions" (Josephus: Book 11, Chapter 1, Paras 2 and 3). The Bible books of Ezra and Nehemiah agree that those who returned belonged only to these tribes.​
Of the ten tribes, Josephus records the following: "Wherefore, there are but (only) two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the TEN TRIBES are beyond Euphrates till now (A.D. 70 or so) and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers" (Josephus: Book 11, Chapter 5, para. 2).​
Much more material could be produced, but let one more testimony suffice. On 26th June, 1950, the following letter was addressed to the Chief Rabbi of Britain:​
Dear Sir,​
May I ask for replies to the following questions:​
1. Do the Jews, as generally known, represent the whole twelve tribes of Israel?​
2. Does the State of Israel in Palestine constitute a union of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms as a united Israel?​
Yours faithfully, C.H.L.I.​
The following reply was received a few days later, being the official opinion of the Chief Rabbi.​
Dear Sir,​
I refer to your letter of the 26th ult. The Jews of today do not represent the whole of the twelve tribes. What happened to the ten tribes who occupied Northern Palestine in Bible times is not definitely known. Various theories have been propounded. Modern Jewry is considered as being descended from the ancient tribe of Judah, and to a lesser extent, the tribe of Benjamin.​
Yours truly,​
Signed J. H. Taylor, Sec.​
Leaving Bible history, we must turn to the prophets.​
Don't get too hung up on my use of the expression "written off". It's my belief, based on scripture, that the complete nation of Israel is still very much in play.
I agree, but we differ on who the nation of Israel actually is and who it is not.
You and others are the ones who say that God's eternal promises to Abraham's physical descendants have been lost or rescinded. Nothing in the Bible supports that idea.
The promises to Abraham's descendants were fulfilled by God as can be seen as fulfilled by looking at world history. They became as the "stars of heaven" (USA - Gen. 22:17) and a "multitude (commonwealth) of nations" (UK - Ge. 48:19) and possessed all the (sea) gates of their enemies (Gen. 22:17), etc. etc.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
For Christian Zionist, a message from One For Israel, a jewish christian, about Zionism.
https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-...people-more-than-you-love-the-jewish-messiah/


Please don’t love us (Jewish people) more than you love your Jewish Messiah!

What do I mean?

I am Jewish – that makes me 1 of about 14,000,000.
Also, I was born in Israel (Tel-Aviv) – that takes it down to 1 of about 4,000,000.
Also, I am a native born Israeli-Jewish follower of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah – that now makes me 1 of about only 7,000.

Being part of “the remnant” (Romans 11:1-6) is no easy task. On the one hand, many of my fellow Jews (who only know what the rabbis have told them about Yeshua) tend to look at me as if I have betrayed my heritage and chosen to follow some kind of pagan god. We Messianic Jewish believers are not very popular among the majority of Jewish people here in Israel.

But on the other hand, more and more Christians now base their understanding of God’s plan for Israel on what they see on CNN and BBC – that is to say, not very favorably. We, Israel, are getting less and less popular among the church in the nations too. So I guess it’s safe to say, as the English saying goes, that I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

While I am very encouraged by the support and love for my nation of Israel coming from many of my Christian brothers and sisters around the world, I am also very saddened when I hear/read things from these very people who love my country so much that they don’t seem to think Jewish people even need salvation through Yeshua (Jesus)! Israel may be great, but it’s not perfect – we also need to have our sins paid for, just the same as everybody else. To suggest otherwise is condemning us to an eternity separated from God.

People Who Love Israel to Death

Some good examples can be found in the teachings of the well known ‘Christians United for Israel’ chairman, Pastor John Hagee. In his teachings, Hagee promotes the false idea that Jews do not need a personal relationship with Jesus, but can be saved just by keeping the Old Covenant. Tragically, he said;

“The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation…Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, but not Jews”.
(Pastor John Hagee, interviewd by Julia Duin, “San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles Anti-Semitism,” The Houston Chronicle, 30 April 1988)


Shocked? I certainly was.

It seems that Hagee fails to understand the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant (nationalistic covenant having nothing to do with personal salvation) that God made with our nation. Nor does Hagee understand the purpose of the Law of Moses; How does Hagee expect Israel to keep the Law of Moses now that we have no priesthood, no temple, and no sacrificial system – all of which comprise the heart and essence of the Law? (and was only meant to lead us to Christ). You see, we cannot separate Moses’ Covenant from Moses’ laws. The laws are merely an outgrowth of the covenant; they cannot stand on their own – just as eating mayonnaise and mustard is pointless without the sandwich itself. (Our new book on the Torah explains that farther). The covenant was ratified by the shedding of blood (Exod 24:8) and was maintained by the blood of the sacrifices upon the altar (Exod 30:10). Without the sacrificial system we are unable to keep Moses’ covenant. Besides, the Bible says that no one is able to keep the Law, nor be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16), therefore no one was ever able to receive salvation through it. It is ONLY the blood of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus) that can save us and wash away our sin.

Hagee goes further in his book, “In Defense of Israel”, (which, ironically, ends up being far more of a danger to Israel than a defense):

Hagee says, “The sovereign purpose for Jesus’ life was to be a light to the Gentiles” (p. 133)
But Jesus said that he was sent, “to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matt 15:24)

Hagee says, “there is not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament that says Jesus came to be the Messiah…” (p. 136)
But Jesus said he was the Messiah: “The woman said, “I know that Messiah is coming… Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” (John 4:25-26)

Hagee says, “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews.” (p. 140)
But Jesus said, “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt 22:39)

Hagee says: “He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world.” (p 143)
But Scripture says, “let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

See the problem? Hagee holds to a false teaching called “Wider Hope” (which is a branch of “Dual Covenant Theology”)

The Israel You Might Not Know
The idea promoted by some Christians that it’s fine for Jewish people to continue to reject Yeshua as Messiah grieves me as an Israeli Jew not only because it is heresy, but also because I know a side of Israel that people like Pastor John Hagee doesn’t.

Yeshua, who obviously strongly believed in the Bible, made less of a big deal out of territory and land than he did about taking care of people – especially the poor, the needy, the elderly, widows, orphans, and so on. Yeshua’s message wasn’t at any point a geopolitical one, but a spiritual one (peace in the middle east will not come from Benjamin Netanyahu, nor from Hagee’s CUFI, but can only take place at the foot of the cross, when Jews and Arabs will recognize and put thier trust in the prince of peace).

Again and again, the Hebrew Scriptures emphasize and teach that the nation of Israel must take care of its people, especially the weak, poor and needy.

Yet today, 1 out of every 3 Israeli children suffer from poverty (Israel ranks 4th in child poverty in the developed world). The medical system is collapsing for lack of funds and medical staff (Israel has OECD’s most crowded hospitals). According to Transparency International, corruption in Israel is embarrassingly ranked 60 out of 100. One in four Holocaust survivors suffer from poverty. On multiple occasions this past year, I myself have brought food to Holocaust survivors who face the weekly decision of whether to buy food or to buy necessary medicine. Human trafficking reports rank Israel with 3rd world nations. The sex trade in Israel generates up to $500 million in revenue per year (that is over $60 a person!) while prostitution is legal and widely available in Israel. In its annual report for 2012, the International Narcotics Control Board lists Israel among the “countries that are major manufacturers, exporters, importers and users of narcotic drugs.” Israel is one of the world’s leaders when it comes to abortions, with 55 babies being killed every day – and our government is the one subsidizing it.

You see, just like anywhere else in the world, our country is comprised of sinful human beings who unfortunately are yet to recognize their need for the Savior. As a result, our country’s immoral decisions are evident. (Just to be clear: I love Israel, and the fact that I am able to criticize my own government proves that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Anywhere else and I would most likely be face to face with Jesus by now.)

As the people of Israel, our hope should not be in our government, nor in the IDF – but in our Savior alone. What God’s heart really delights in is not waving the flag of Israel, or shiny new IDF tanks, or even olive oil purchased from the Promised Land – it is when a human being makes a decision to follow the Messiah. What our people really need is…Yeshua!

So, dear Christians, as an Israeli Jewish follower of Jesus, my challenge for you today is not to love us Jews into hell, but to live up to the biblical mandate of provoking us to jealousy in Yeshua (Romans 11:11). Trust me, I myself am living evidence that it worked 16 years ago, and it’s still working with many other Jews.

Dear Pastor Hagee, I love you as a brother in Christ, yet let me challenge you that my nation Israel doesn’t need your millions of dollars supporting secular causes, (a lot of which ends up with the anti-missionaries who fight us sharing the gospel), nor do we need your political support. What Israel needs is the message of the gospel! What my people need is to hear about Yeshua, our Jewish Savior who gave His life for us so we can find eternal life!

If you agree that the best way to bless Israel, is with Yeshua the Messiah – please SHARE my post!
I have never listened to a word John Hagee has said, and I don't think I know anyone who has. For some reason people keep bringing his name up, as if he means anything to people like me.

If you want to know how I feel about Israel, then engage ME in conversation. Learn what I believe.
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
The promises to Abraham's descendants were fulfilled by God as can be seen as fulfilled by looking at world history.
When was this fulfilled?

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
 





Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,842
Likes
4,709
I have never listened to a word John Hagee has said, and I don't think I know anyone who has. For some reason people keep bringing his name up, as if he means anything to people like me.

If you want to know how I feel about Israel, then engage ME in conversation. Learn what I believe.
Ugh... Hagee. :rolleyes:

Having said that, I'd like to reiterate how damaging stereotypes are: Very.
 





Joined
Mar 11, 2019
Messages
669
Likes
1,128
I have never listened to a word John Hagee has said, and I don't think I know anyone who has. For some reason people keep bringing his name up, as if he means anything to people like me.

If you want to know how I feel about Israel, then engage ME in conversation. Learn what I believe.
if youre not like him then thats good
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
if youre not like him then thats good
I don't know what he believes, or that much about him. I do know that he's overweight, and I don't trust fat preachers. This is not a hate on overweight people, but as far as I am concerned, a gluttonous preacher has about as much authority as one who is a drunkard, or who cheats on his wife.

I have only ever seen pictures of Hagee, draped in either a Jewish prayer shawl or an Israeli flag. Right away I can tell you that's not me. If he thinks Jews or the nation of Israel can do no wrong, that's not me, either. If he thinks Jews don't need to accept Jesus Christ, just like everybody else has to, that's definitely not me.

There is no Biblical doctrine of "Christian" Zionism. My sense is that Hagee has taken advantage of the ignorance of American Christians to make a nice living as a America's Christian Rabbi. As I said, I don't listen to him or know anyone who does. None of the pastors or teachers I listen to mention him or refer to him in any way, and that says a lot. If he had any actual standing as a teacher or Bible scholar, I would be coming across his name in more places than just posts that stereotype people like me. :)
 





Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
1,458
Likes
729
When was this fulfilled?



And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.



And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.



And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
It is yet future and part of the 0.1% of the prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled by Christ.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,524
Likes
5,807
This belief is taught in Christian Zionism but it is not true according to the Bible which still talks of the two houses remaining separate until Christ returns. Only then can and will they be re-united (by Christ) and be one single Nation again, as this is promised in Bible prophecy. -
If the two houses are separate until Christ returns, then you still need to deal with the verses I quoted from the New Testament.

From my previous post:

When James wrote his epistle, he addressed it to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. In what sense could he have been doing that if 10 of the tribes were lost? What does "lost tribes" mean, when all the tribes are accounted for, and God is addressing scripture to them?

At the day of Pentecost, house of Israel means Nation of Israel, the Jews. Read how Peter addresses the assembled Jews.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
If the nation is still divided, why does the Bible call them Jews and the house of Israel?

If the nation will be divided until Jesus comes back, why does Revelation treat them as one?

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 





Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
1,458
Likes
729
If the two houses are separate until Christ returns, then you still need to deal with the verses I quoted from the New Testament.

From my previous post:

When James wrote his epistle, he addressed it to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. In what sense could he have been doing that if 10 of the tribes were lost? What does "lost tribes" mean, when all the tribes are accounted for, and God is addressing scripture to them?

At the day of Pentecost, house of Israel means Nation of Israel, the Jews. Read how Peter addresses the assembled Jews.


But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:



Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:



Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

If the nation is still divided, why does the Bible call them Jews and the house of Israel?

If the nation will be divided until Jesus comes back, why does Revelation treat them as one?


And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Sometimes all of the 12 tribes of Israel are collectively referred to as the House of Israel. One example is Ezekiel 11:15 where it says "all the House of Israel wholly":

Ezekiel
11:15 Son of man, thy brethren, [even] thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the House of Israel wholly, [are] they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the "I AM": unto us is this land given in possession (Idumean zionists - 1948).

Or both the Houses of Israel as in Isaiah:

8:14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; and for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the Houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

They became "lost" due to becoming blind to their true identity.

Romans
11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness (as to their true identity) is happened to part of Israel (the ten "lost" tribes - the House of Israel), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.