Christian viewpoints and "supporting israel"

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Rather than derail anyone's thread, i decided to make my own to discuss the matter of Christians and supporting the modern country of israel, the biblical nation of Israel, "Jews" and/or Jews.

Where im coming from:

All i see, to be honest, are extreme positions and strawmans. Occasionally someone says the right thing, but for the wrong reason. Is what im going to say so unthinkable? Im not special, so why hasn't anyone thought of this...

Honestly, im starting to wonder if practically everyone is just here to repeat propaganda for either "side"...


Anyway, i am NOT a "replacement theology" believer, i don't think "the church" is Israel.

I believe scripture has multiple applications, and not every prophecy has been fulfilled.

I am not a Muslim. The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only begotten son.

Not am i a marxist, liberal, democrat, woke, insert-whatever-other-discreditng-word... i wholeheartedly disagree with cultural marxist tactics of cancel culture and silencing/censoring others. Caring about children being murdered should not be labeled "woke", but i guess that's where we are in 2023...


What i am is a believer in the Bible (ALL of it, in context) and a conspiracy theorist. I was a conspiracy theorist before i was a Christian, and becoming a Christian did not make me any less of a conspiracy theorist.


And what i am saying is that no, a Christian does not HAVE to "support israel" (regardless of what the overpaid, bought off pastor says...)
 
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Previously i had raised the issue here, but i think this deserves it's own thread.

Seems to be a big overlap between people who believe that Christians are saved through faith alone and people who believe that saying anything the least bit critical of the country of Israel's actions is synonymous with "cursing" Israel.

Almost as if they might believe that by criticizing the country of Israel they may lose their salvation..?

But if that was the case, then do they really believe in salvation through faith alone? Wouldn't overlooking the actions of the country of Israel be doing something aka "works" aka no longer salvation by faith alone?


(I was not raised Christian, so i don't have decades of "we don't say that!" programming. I'm just trying to make sense of this)


Thoughts?

Mostly im commenting on the phenomenon that if salvation - according to Christian zionists - is through faith ALONE, then where does the unconditional support of the country of Israel come from?

As in, do they mean "salvation through faith AND unconditional support of the country of Israel"?

Because the Bible doesn't say that, regardless of whether or not these people believe that Jews are still a chosen people. (Not even getting into the whole ancestry thing, and those that say they're Jews but are not, and all that)

As an "outsider" (as i've mentioned, i wasn't raised Christian), it seems to me that it is a huge case of following the traditions of men and adding to the word.

To keep it consistent (as far as my argument, but anyone with a critical mind will see THEIR inconsistencies) i will use this same source for this post. This site is mainstream responses from an evangelical Christian point of view.


Is salvation by faith alone, or is salvation by faith plus works? This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the cults. Is salvation through faith alone or through faith plus human works? Stated another way, am I saved by trusting in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and, in addition, do certain things?
...
We are not saved by our own works, however meritorious they are in our own eyes. We are saved solely by the work of Christ on our behalf. His death and His resurrection are the works that save us. We receive our Savior by faith (John 1:12).




A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family
. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9).
...
A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17, NKJV). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.
...
A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).



Christians should definitely support the nation of Israel.
...
All that we have worth having has come to us through the Jews. Our Bible is a Jewish Book, and our Savior is a Jewish Savior. Let us never forget to pray for God’s chosen people. It is true that Israel is currently in rebellion against God because of their rejection of Christ.
...
Jews are, biblically speaking, the "chosen people of God" and dearly loved by Him. Another reason for Christians to support the nation of Israel is because of the Abrahamic Covenant. We read of God’s promise in Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (see also Genesis 27:29; Numbers 24:9).
...
One of the United States’ most worthwhile accomplishments has been its consistent regard for the plight of the Jewish nation. No nation in the history of the world has a better record of treating individual Jews with respect than does America. The same can be said for our befriending Israel as a nation. America has committed many sins for which we may well deserve judgment, but as a nation, we have been a consistent friend of the Jews and the nation of Israel, as well as a benefactor. In 1948, President Harry Truman helped persuade the United Nations to recognize Israel as a nation. Since then, the United States has contributed billions of dollars in aid to Israel.

From the biblical declarations of God’s love and care for His chosen people, the nation of Israel, and from the history of nations being destroyed because of their evil dealings with God’s chosen people, the Jews, Christian believers should give support to the chosen people of God.

This is not to say that we necessarily support the methods they use in their relationships with the Arab nations. The Bible warned that conflict would always characterize the relations between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael. Sadly, this conflict will continue until Jesus comes back to judge the nations and sets up His 1,000-year reign of peace on earth. We must look at the "big picture” with a biblical worldview. While we do not have to support everything Israel does as a nation, we most definitely should support Israel’s right to exist. God will fulfill His promises and covenants with Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. Woe to anyone who seeks to defeat that plan; “whoever curses you I will curse” (Genesis 12:3).





If there is nothing worse that losing our salvation, and if salvation is through faith alone and not works, then it follows that a Christian does not lose their salvation by not supporting the modern state of israel...

Supporting the modern state of israel is therefore a CHOICE, not an obligation (despite what the well funded pastor says...)
 
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Another reason for Christians to support the nation of Israel is because of the Abrahamic Covenant. We read of God’s promise in Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (see also Genesis 27:29; Numbers 24:9).
It must be noted that Genesis 12 takes place long before Abraham had any of his sons (neither Ishmael, Isaac, nor his 6 sons with his next wife after Sarah's death [Gen 25:1,6]).

Therefore, to say it refers specifically to Israel (let alone modern nation state israel), is an interpretation, not explicitly said.


Genesis 12:2-3
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed


Referring to other, later verses that specify is one thing, but quoting Genesis 12:2-3 alone as a reason to support modern israel does not hold up to scrutiny.


Genesis 27:29 has to do with Abraham's grandson Esau serving his brother Jacob/Israel, and has nothing to do with the Abrahamic covenant from Genesis 12, nor does it mention Abraham's other sons.

Genesis 27
19And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me
...
29Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee





Once again using the same site for consistency

The Abrahamic Covenant included the promise of land (Genesis 12:1). It was a specific land, an actual property, with dimensions specified in Genesis 15:18–21. In Genesis 13:15, God gives Abraham all the land that he can see, and the gift is declared to be “forever.” God was not going to renege on His promise. The territory given as part of the Abrahamic Covenant is expanded in Deuteronomy 30:1–10, often called the Palestinian Covenant.

Centuries after Abraham died, the children of Israel took possession of the land under Joshua’s leadership (Joshua 21:43). At no point in history, though, has Israel controlled all of the land God had specified. There remains, therefore, a final fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that will see Israel occupying their God-given homeland to the fullest extent.





Genesis 13
14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered



Genesis 15
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites



This indicates that zionists who believe in human's fulfilling prophecy, as opposed to God, do not just want to claim the strip of land that the Palestinians live on. Their goal, if the justification is "the Abrahamic covenant", is for modern israel to possess ALL the land from the nile to the euphrates.



Deuteronomy 30 is a CONDITIONAL covenant, so the article author's inclusion of it under the unconditional Abrahamic covenant is deceptive to say the least...

Deuteronomy 30
1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.



11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them
 
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Christians should definitely support the nation of Israel.
...
All that we have worth having has come to us through the Jews. Our Bible is a Jewish Book, and our Savior is a Jewish Savior. Let us never forget to pray for God’s chosen people
.
...
God still has a plan for Israel. Woe to anyone who seeks to defeat that plan; “whoever curses you I will curse” (Genesis 12:3).
While it is true that Jesus, our savior, is from the Israelite tribe of Judah, how the author of the article then makes the leap to modern israel must be cheered on is a mystery.

I do agree we should pray for them, but for their repentance, not military success.

Another thing that must be said is that i dont believe the Christian response is to "curse" israel, that's just another extreme.

Although controversial, apparently, Jesus taught to love our enemies and bless them that curse us.

Matthew 5
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you


Also, if we believe in an omnipotent God, then His plan will be carried out regardless of our "support" or lack of...
 
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For the last almost 2 months i've just been asking myself over and over, if salvation is through faith, and cant be lost, then why do Christians get told to support israel? How can people turn a blind eye to the suffering of so many innocent people, if salvation - the only thing that matters - is not at stake?



Soon an “Evangelical statement in support of Israel” was issued by the ethics and religion liberty commission – an arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, a denomination which has 45,000 churches in the US.

In the statement, 2,000 evangelical leaders – not all were named – said they “fully support Israel’s right and duty to defend itself against further attack”. Little credence was given to the Palestinians who would soon find themselves under attack: more than 8,000 people in Gaza have now been killed by Israeli bombardments, according to Gaza’s health ministry .

“While our theological perspectives on Israel and the Church may vary, we are unified in calling attacks against Jewish people especially troubling as they have been often targeted by their neighbors since God called them as His people in the days of Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3),” the evangelical statement said.



As i mentioned a couple posts ago, Genesis 12 takes place long before there were any "Jews" around.



One main strand of evangelical theology holds that the return of Jews to the region starts the clock ticking on a seven-year armageddon, after which Jesus Christ will return.

To that end, the issue of Israel and Palestine has dominated sermons at evangelical churches over the past two Sundays, said Daniel Hummel, a historian of American religion, and the author of Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and US-Israeli Relations.
...

Broadly speaking, some evangelicals believe that Jewish people returning to Israel following the 1917 Balfour Declaration, a British statement which called for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, was key to end times, when God will purge sinners and Jesus Christ will return.

John Hagee, an evangelical pastor and influential founder of Christians United for Israel, explained the prophecy to TBN Networks in December 2022.

“God is getting ready to defend Israel in such a supernatural way it’s going to take the breath out of the lungs of the dictators on planet Earth but we are living on the cusp of the greatest most supernatural series of events the world has ever seen ready or not.”

Hagee said when Jewish people are present in Israel “the clock starts ticking” on the rapture.


“What will come soon [is] the antichrist and his seven year empire that will be destroyed in the battle of armageddon. Then Jesus Christ will set up his throne in the city of Jerusalem. He will establish a kingdom that will never end,” Hagee said.



Regardless if one believes in a pre-tribulation rapture or not, the notion that humans can force God's hand by setting up the events in order to hasten Jesus' return makes God out to be much less powerful than He is.
He will initiate the final sequence of events when He pleases.
 
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For the last almost 2 months i've just been asking myself over and over, if salvation is through faith, and cant be lost, then why do Christians get told to support israel? How can people turn a blind eye to the suffering of so many innocent people, if salvation - the only thing that matters - is not at stake?
Turns out it gets worse - people are "blessing israel" in exchange for personal - or national - blessings.

Money. People are cheering on the killing of innocent people for money. No wonder "prosperity gospel" churches are among the most pro-israel.

How that is any different from the blood sacrifices the elites perform, i don't know.

The source for both is one and the same.


From the same article (and it is disgusting that this article's author considers this motive "less outlandish" than a belief in hastening the end times - how can this blood sacrifice for money be so normalized?)


While there are plenty of evangelicals who, like Hagee, adhere to the Israel-is-key-to-Jesus’-return theology, there are also those who believe in “blessings theology”, a less outlandish, more transactional approach to support for Israel.

The blessings theology is based on a literal reading of the book of Genesis, where God told Abraham – who Hummel described as “the patriarch of the Jewish people” – that he would “bless those who bless you” and “curse those who curse you”.

“For the last couple of centuries this has been interpreted on individual terms. So you can accrue personal blessings by being good to the Jewish people, or by giving money, or touring Israel or things like that,” Hummel said.

That also works on a national level, he said.

“And so the crude way of doing this is a pastor will say something like: ‘Look at the Roman Empire and how they persecuted the Jews and Rome fell. Look at the British Empire and how the British didn’t treat the Jews well, and how they fell. Look at the Nazis and how they persecuted the Jews, and they fell.

And we, the Americans, don’t want to be the next Empire or the next great power to fall because we didn’t sufficiently bless the Jewish people.’”

There are also those whose support is “more broadly American”, Hummel said: “There’s a deep cultural affinity that’s been built over decades and decades between the US and Israel all across the board.”
...
Fang asked Tim Burchett, a Republican congressman from Tennessee, about evangelical support.

They’re following the scripture, and what the scripture says about Israel: ‘Those who bless Israel will be blessed,’ they take it literal, and I’m one of those people,” Burchett said.




If and when the US falls it's not from lack of "blessing" modern israel, but because of turning away from God.

This is a country that murder innocents by the millions and cheers on degeneracy. To think that God will overlook this because of sending money to the country of israel casts some serious doubt on God's righteousness.
 

phipps

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Rather than derail anyone's thread, i decided to make my own to discuss the matter of Christians and supporting the modern country of israel, the biblical nation of Israel, "Jews" and/or Jews.

Where im coming from:

All i see, to be honest, are extreme positions and strawmans. Occasionally someone says the right thing, but for the wrong reason. Is what im going to say so unthinkable? Im not special, so why hasn't anyone thought of this...

Honestly, im starting to wonder if practically everyone is just here to repeat propaganda for either "side"...


Anyway, i am NOT a "replacement theology" believer, i don't think "the church" is Israel.

I believe scripture has multiple applications, and not every prophecy has been fulfilled.

I am not a Muslim. The Lord Jesus Christ is God's only begotten son.

Not am i a marxist, liberal, democrat, woke, insert-whatever-other-discreditng-word... i wholeheartedly disagree with cultural marxist tactics of cancel culture and silencing/censoring others. Caring about children being murdered should not be labeled "woke", but i guess that's where we are in 2023...


What i am is a believer in the Bible (ALL of it, in context) and a conspiracy theorist. I was a conspiracy theorist before i was a Christian, and becoming a Christian did not make me any less of a conspiracy theorist.


And what i am saying is that no, a Christian does not HAVE to "support israel" (regardless of what the overpaid, bought off pastor says...)
I thinks its important that Christians should be able to tell the difference between what is biblical and what isn't.

Israel according to the Bible.
Many Christians here are Zionists. They believe the Jews are still a chosen people or nation. They believe that the Old Testament promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled through the Jews at the end of time. They also believe that one of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant was God's unconditional promise that Israel would have everlasting possession of the land of Palestine. Richard W. DeHaan wrote: "The descendants of Abraham were given the land of Canaan in a free, unconditional, and unchangeable grant from God." DeHaan, Israel and the Nations in Prophecy, p. 93.

But actually the Bible states something different. I will only use the analogy of the Olive tree from Romans 11. The Olive tree represents Israel and Paul tells us, "And if some of the branches were broken off (the Jews), and you, being a wild olive tree (believing Gentiles), were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root (Jesus) and fatness of the olive tree (Israel)" (Romans 11:17). Paul is saying that some Jews left God's Israel (the olive tree) and some wild shoots ( believing Gentiles) joined Israel and became citizens of God's Israel which is the New Testament is spiritual not a physical place. Those Jews that never left Israel are also believers in Christ and still part of God's Israel. Pau; goes on to say that the Jews that left the Israel (the olive tree) can come back and join it, "

This goes hand in hand with the rest of scripture of who now constitutes Israel in the New Covenant:

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" (Acts 10:34-35).

"...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (Galatians 3:14).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28-29).

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).

See also Romans 2:28-29, 9:6, 1 Corinthians 1:23-24, Ephesians 2:11-13, 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Anyway, i am NOT a "replacement theology" believer, i don't think "the church" is Israel.
Biblically the Church is Israel in the New Covenant as it was in the Old. In the old Covenant Gentiles joined Israel too but they had to be circumcised in those days. Some of the Gentiles that were part of Israel were Bathsheba's husband Uriah, Ruth, Tamar, Rahab etc. They are all one people who all accept and believe in Christ as their personal Saviour.

Ephesians 4:4, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling."

Colossians 1:18, "And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."


Jesus is not head of people who rejected Him (the Jews that broke off from Israel). He is the head of the body/Israel/church/people who accept and believe in Him from all over the world whether they are Jews or Gentiles. They are those who are circumcised inwardly in their heart in the spirit (Romans 2:28-29). Therefore they are all Israelites/Jews and they will all be saved.

And what i am saying is that no, a Christian does not HAVE to "support israel" (regardless of what the overpaid, bought off pastor says...)
True. The Israel of God in the New Covenant does not have a physical country in the middle east in this sinful world. Their country is heaven and the New Kingdom to come. That is the promised land that all true Christians are looking forward to live in for eternity with Christ.

Christians should be part of and support God's Israel/true church/one body/one flock according to His Word and not the middle eastern state of Israel. If a Christian understands what Israel is according to the Bible they would not believe and mistake the state of Israel as the chosen nation/people and therefore God's Israel.
 
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phipps

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THE PROMISES OF THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT ARE FULFILLED TO CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS, BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES.

The fact that all Christians are to live under the Abrahamic covenant is a prominent New Testament teaching. The heart of the covenant offered to all Christians is stated in Hebrews 8:10: "This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." This is the same covenant promise that was given to Israel through Jeremiah (31:31-33). In fact, Hebrews 8:10 quotes Jeremiah 31:33.

The covenant experience for Christian believers of having God's law written on their hearts was the very essence of the covenant between God and the Jews (Deuteronomy 6:4-6). By faith Abraham obeyed God's law (Genesis 26:5), and this experience of righteousness by faith is the heart of the Abrahamic covenant. Because Abraham believed God, righteousness was imputed to him. The righteousness of Christ was legally counted for him and bestowed upon him by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Abraham's covenant experience is to be the experience of all those who submit to the loving lordship of Christ, whatever their nationality. The promise of Romans 10:10 is for all Christian believers around the world, Jews and Gentiles: "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation" (verse 20). This identical experience is for Jews and non-Jews, for, in respect to salvation, "there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him" (Romans 10:12).

Although Israel is no longer God's chosen nation because this status has been transferred to the Christian Church, individual Jews can be saved from sin and given eternal life on exactly the same basis as all Gentiles. By accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, they are included in the family of God.

Link.
 
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Many Christians here are Zionists. They believe the Jews are still a chosen people or nation. They believe that the Old Testament promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled through the Jews at the end of time. They also believe that one of the terms of the Abrahamic covenant was God's unconditional promise that Israel would have everlasting possession of the land of Palestine. Richard W. DeHaan wrote: "The descendants of Abraham were given the land of Canaan in a free, unconditional, and unchangeable grant from God." DeHaan, Israel and the Nations in Prophecy, p. 93.

But actually the Bible states something different. I will only use the analogy of the Olive tree from Romans 11. The Olive tree represents Israel and Paul tells us, "And if some of the branches were broken off (the Jews), and you, being a wild olive tree (believing Gentiles), were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root (Jesus) and fatness of the olive tree (Israel)" (Romans 11:17). Paul is saying that some Jews left God's Israel (the olive tree) and some wild shoots ( believing Gentiles) joined Israel and became citizens of God's Israel which is the New Testament is spiritual not a physical place. Those Jews that never left Israel are also believers in Christ and still part of God's Israel. Pau; goes on to say that the Jews that left the Israel (the olive tree) can come back and join it, "
I hear you, im just saying that EVEN those who believe in dispensationalism are under no obligation to support the modern state of israel, nor can they force God's hand in order to initiate the end times, nor does God require their help in order to fulfill His plans, nor is "support israel" listed among, say, the 10 commandments, or as a stipulation to salvation, etc.

In all honesty, the "support israel" viewpoint strikes me as so nonsensical that i just can't understand... and i mostly read/view the materials of dispensationalists. But it just makes no sense.

I mean in the Bible there are instances of God fighting battles on behalf of the israelites, showing them that they didn't win on their own efforts, but because of Him. To think that us ordinary humans can then somehow change the course of events by supporting israel - or not - just diminishes God's glory, in my opinion.

Sometimes i think the current war is a test of sorts, to divide between those who have hardened hearts and those who are guided by the Holy Spirit. Because i just can't understand how anyone can reconcile the "support israel" narrative with the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.

(And how does one support something without supporting what theyre doing? What does that even mean? Do they mean like financial support? But if that financial support is what funds their activities, isn't it the same as supporting what they're doing?)
 
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The fact that all Christians are to live under the Abrahamic covenant is a prominent New Testament teaching. The heart of the covenant offered to all Christians is stated in Hebrews 8:10: "This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." This is the same covenant promise that was given to Israel through Jeremiah (31:31-33). In fact, Hebrews 8:10 quotes Jeremiah 31:33.
That is a good point.
 

phipps

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@ToxicFemininitySucks
I hear you, im just saying that EVEN those who believe in dispensationalism are under no obligation to support the modern state of israel, nor can they force God's hand in order to initiate the end times, nor does God require their help in order to fulfill His plans, nor is "support israel" listed among, say, the 10 commandments, or as a stipulation to salvation, etc.
Agree. It isn't a condition to being saved.

In all honesty, the "support israel" viewpoint strikes me as so nonsensical that i just can't understand... and i mostly read/view the materials of dispensationalists. But it just makes no sense.
This is something I posted in my thread, "Dispensationalism is not Biblical, it is a man-made doctrine."

"Dispensationalism may agree that Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant in His first coming, but it strongly suggests also that Jesus becomes the Mediator of the Old Covenant in His second coming. There is hardly a doctrine that is more detrimental to the foundations of Christianity than this. It overthrows virtually all that Jesus accomplished on the Cross. It reverses virtually every major change that took place under the New Covenant that is described in the book of Hebrew.

If this teaching were allowed to stand, the book of Hebrews would eventually be removed from the New Testament.

Its also important to note that the New Testament/Covenant does not teach anywhere that a land of promise was given to Israel. In fact the New Testament does not present Israel as a land of promise for Abraham and his descendants. There is no mention of land not even Romans 9-11. The New Testament focuses on a heavenly country, and the new kingdom. "But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them" (Hebrews 11:16)."

Link.

I mean in the Bible there are instances of God fighting battles on behalf of the israelites, showing them that they didn't win on their own efforts, but because of Him. To think that us ordinary humans can then somehow change the course of events by supporting israel - or not - just diminishes God's glory, in my opinion.
Agree and end time prophecy shows us what the course of events will be and they will not be about the state of Israel. They will be about spiritual Israel/God's people.

Sometimes i think the current war is a test of sorts, to divide between those who have hardened hearts and those who are guided by the Holy Spirit. Because i just can't understand how anyone can reconcile the "support israel" narrative with the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
Agree.

(And how does one support something without supporting what theyre doing? What does that even mean? Do they mean like financial support? But if that financial support is what funds their activities, isn't it the same as supporting what they're doing?)
It would be good if one of them answers this question.
 

Floridafoot

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Floridafoot

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And how does one support something without supporting what theyre doing? What does that even mean? Do they mean like financial support? But if that financial support is what funds their activities, isn't it the same as supporting what they're doing
I think what this really boils down to is fear and lack of understanding the truth. It's like a spiritual C.Y.A.(cover your rear end)... Rather than dig too deep into it, just to be safe, support Israel. Of course what happened October 7th was awful. Murder is murder. But how could that have happened in the first place without some measure of complicity on behalf of the Israeli government?
Bottom line is most Christians are not making the distinction between the government of a nation and it's citizens. Israel was experiencing major civil unrest right before October 7th happened. Which was convenient timing for Mr. Netanyahu. The Israeli citizens were livid Netanyahu was back in office and wanted him out. So by supporting the current regime in Israel you are not supporting the average Israeli. Look at it this way, as an American Christian, would you want someone in another country thinking Joe Biden and co represents you? If old Joe decided to wipe out 10,000 Cubans, or South Americans (just for and example) would that represent your wishes? There is a huge difference between the desires of the average citizen of any nation and their government, especially these days.
I will say people should be careful letting the pendulum swing too far either way. I'm seeing this war as an excuse for folks to choose sides.. to the max. I'm hearing things like "the Jews are behind all the problems of the whole world. It all goes back to them!" And also I hear "All Palestinians are Hamas, there's no difference between the two! They're all savages!" Come on y'all, this isn't right.
 

phipps

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Sorry, watching that Israeli soldier knock down the poor Rabbi has me all fired up! What is wrong with people?!
Unfortunately Hamas has been doing the same in Gaza with people who do not support them or think do not support them. I've been reading those stories too.

 
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Unfortunately Hamas has been doing the same in Gaza with people who do not support them or think do not support them. I've been reading those stories too.

We want proof.
I can tag thousands of articles here also video proofs of brutal Israeli assault. For starters, I think I should tag 50 insta handles of Palestinian journalists what they have recorded in last 50 days for Floridafoot. I will get back to this thread after that, meanwhile you collect video proofs.

Take your time, I have all the time in the world.
 

phipps

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We want proof.
I can tag thousands of articles here also video proofs of brutal Israeli assault. For starters, I think I should tag 50 insta handles of Palestinian journalists what they have recorded in last 50 days for Floridafoot. I will get back to this thread after that, meanwhile you collect video proofs.

Take your time, I have all the time in the world.
I don't have video proof. Do you think Hamas is perfect? That they've been so caring and supportive of all Palestinians even those that do not support them and have made it public? Its clear Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel and I should think some Palestinians and Israeli people are fed up of the conflict and want peace.


 
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