Christian Universalism - Good News or Bad Doctrine?

[phipps]

Almost all christians believe that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

They will bow out of fear or they will bow out of love.

Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was loved. People loved Jesus. It is unimaginable that after having won them over with his love and having so convinced them of his love that they bow before him in submission that he would then turn on them and subject them to eternal conscious torment.

His plan is to redeem and to restore his creation fully. His plans will be fulfilled.

Almost all christians believe that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Yes every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess but that does not mean they will all be saved. The Bible is clear the unrighteous will die forever. So when the Bible says every knee shall bow down and every tongue will confess that includes the unrighteous and Satan and his angels. They will all accept that Jesus is Lord and just and fair in all His judgements.

They will bow out of fear or they will bow out of love.

True. The righteous will bow out of love for their Lord and the unrighteous out of fear because they will know they made bad choices and their lives will end forever because of those choices.

Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was loved. People loved Jesus.

Yes in the gospels Jesus was loved but many didn't love Him too. The Pharisees and Sadducees did not love Jesus and didn't think He was the Messiah. When Pontius Pilate asked the crowd to choose between Barnabus of Jesus, the crowd chose Barnabus. In fact its the minority throughout history that love Jesus in this world compared to those that don't. Jesus said the way of truth was narrow and “and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14). He also said, “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man” (Luke 17:26). The saved will be comparable to the eight souls taken into the ark at the time of the great flood. The truth has never been popular, and it will be less so in the end time.

It is unimaginable that after having won them over with his love and having so convinced them of his love that they bow before him in submission that he would then turn on them and subject them to eternal conscious torment.

God does not turn on anyone. The Bible makes it clear if we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour and submit to Him continuously, He will never abandon us. It is us who turn on God and not do what He asks of us. He has clearly told us the consequences of the choices we make whether it is to follow Him or not follow Him. When Jesus returns He will reward us according to the choices we've made. He will respect those choices because God cannot force us to Love Him. So those who chose out of their free will not to accept Christ and follow Him will be punished but it won't be eternal. No one will burn in hell forever according to the Bible. Then the wicked will die eternally because the wages of sin is death. They will cease to exist forever. Eternal life is only promised to the righteous. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

His plan is to redeem and to restore his creation fully. His plans will be fulfilled.

It is Jesus' plan to restore His creation fully but only with those who chose to want to be part of that restoration. Only those who submitted to Him fully. We have choice and God will respect our choices and that means some (most people) will make choices not to want to be with Christ and they won't be part of God's Kingdom.

 

[Todd]

I’m sorry. If you read on from 2 Peter 3:9, into verse 10 and further, we are told that God’s return will be unexpected - like a thief. It calls for believers to live at all times in accordance with God’s will because we cannot predict an exact time when he will come. Exegetically, one must therefore assume that timing is of the essence and that the opportunity for salvation is not limitless. Is that too big of a reach? I don’t think it is - at least not when viewed alongside the possibility that there is no time limit.

Sure the timing is important if we want to be part of the bride of Christ. UR doesn't say that everyone will get the same rewards in the ages to come. I want to be one of the ones that hears God say "well done good and faithful servant, enter into thy rest." There will not be immediate rest for the unrighteous. Scripture says they will still be punished and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of Fire is still not something I would wish for any of my friends or family to have to endure.

Perhaps my attitude is a positive one to have but it is one that nevertheless that guards against false teaching which is not based in scripture. To be honest, if you are happy to be guided by scripture and live according to God’s will then I don’t really understand why you would have the need to argue so ardently, in favour of universal reconciliation.

For me, once I received the revelation of UR, it was a matter of defending the true character of God. Is it right and proper for us as Chrstian's to portray God as a vengeful being who chooses to torment unbelievers for eternity with no redeeming purpose in that suffering?

Wouldn’t there always be a part of you that questions the need to live in a certain way, if you can just repent after your life on this earth is done.

I think it's quite the opposite. If the revelation of UR causes a Christian to think, why bother living a certain way, it only reveals the fact that the Christian's only motive to serve God is to avoid hell, rather than the fact that they love God and truly believe he is worthy to receive all honor blessing and glory.

What do you think is going to change after death, in the mind of someone who has rejected God’s teaching all their lives, to make them suddenly believe it? The reality of facing eternal death? That seems a little bit like cheating if you ask me. Maybe I underestimate God?

We all underestimate God. Afterall the scritpure says God is able to do more than we can ask or imagine....

I just can’t get my head around the fact that God would sacrifice His beloved Son if he knew all along that he was going to save everyone anyway. Yes, the sacrifice was in order that we may be saved but Jesus’ death and resurrection, at least in my understanding, always required our acceptance and repentance. Now, you’re telling us that the goal posts have been moved and that God will keep giving us all repeated opportunities - even after death - until we all eventually come to Him. You see, no matter how I look at it, that makes absolutely no sense to my rather simple mind.

Why do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice is not necessary with the doctrine of UR? It is only becuase of Jesus sacrifices that anyone can be saved in this age or the next. UR does not diminish the work of the Cross at all....in fact it increases the power and reach of the cross.

Aren’t there going to be some Christians left feeling incredibly let down by this revelation? Especially the likes of Luther or Calvin for instance, who died long before Universal Reconciliation existed.They could simply have lived a life of debauchery, instead of being devoted to their faith, and repented after death - you know like many Christians seem to think is acceptable today.

I repeat, if ones motivation for outwardly serving God is simply to avoid hell, then I question whether that person has truly been born again inwardly.

One more thing...if this is God’s plan, why did he instruct us through Peter, in Acts 1:8, that the church’s mission was to spread his message to the ends of the earth? What is the point in evangelism, if God is simply going to reconcile everyone to Himself in the end? Wasn’t this instruction a fulfilment of the prophecy in Joel 2:28?

Don't you think it would be preferable to God for all to come to faith in this lifetime, before we can see God with our eyes. In John 20:29, Jesus tells Thomas that he believes because he saw with his own eyes, but those who do not see and believe will be blessed. Those who aren't reconciled in this age will miss out on many blessing that those of us who do believe in this age will recieve.

I am a parent and I would never put a time limit on forgiving my children for anything wrong they did. There is nothing they could ever do to keep me from loving them. Sure they could do things to dissappoint me, but they could never do anything to keep from loving them and forgiving them. I may feel the need to punish or correct them, but my anger and wrath would not last forever. If I can love my children to that degree, how can we not expect God to love us to the same degree and beyond?

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Why do limit God's ability to give good things to those who ask to this lifetime.

The lake of Fire is corrective. All through the bible, God uses fire as a picture and description of the purification of those he loves. Why do we think that will change in the ages to come?

While you might be able to make some verses of scripture suit the UR agenda, the idea of UR makes a nonsense of many other parts of scripture.

And I can say the exact same thing about the doctrine of Eternal Torment. But what doctrine gives more glory to God? Which doctrine maginifies and increases the power of Jesus' work on the cross? What doctrine gives victory to enemy? Don't Christians believe Satan's objective is to deceive as many as possible and drag them all to hell with him. When fully examined with an objective prespective Eternal torment portrays Satan as the victor, and Jesus not completely victorious if he truly came to save the world but the whole world isn't saved. Do you really think that the majority of the human race suffering for eternity portrays Christ as completely victorious? I don't...

I am not a theologian. I am not in any way qualified to lecture on what scripture means. I just have to reason with it in the best way that I can - this does however include being careful not to make interpretations that suit my own agenda. I want God to be a loving God but the way I see it is quite simple - any Father who sacrifices His Son for his people doesn’t have to prove to me that He is a loving God. It goes without saying. He asks relatively little from us in return for that. He simply asks that we live our lives in a way that reverently reflects His love for us. If we can’t do that, we deserve to incur his wrath.
That’s just my take.

We all deserve to incur his wrath, but no where in scripture does it say his wrath is eternal. It says just the opposite that his angry will only last for awhile but his mercy will endure forever. If God is truly just, then how is infinite eternal torment, just punishment for finite sins committed in a finite age? That makes no sense to me.

I believed and taught the doctrine of Eternal torment from the pulpit for many years. When I began to question it and came across the doctrine of UR, I resisted it also, as it went against everything I had been indoctrinated with. I took me a few years of praying and studying and asking God if it could really be true before I was able to fully let go of the doctrine of Eternal Torment. But when I did it brought a whole new level of faith, joy and love for God that was all new and wonderful. My trust in God increased greatly, and my faith and desire to love him with all my heart, strength, soul and mind has only grown. So i fully understand the conflict and struggle in your spirit as you wrestle with the doctrine of UR, because I was were you are at 7 or 8 years ago. I pray that God blesses you as you continue to seek after him.

 

[Hon33]

Sure the timing is important if we want to be part of the bride of Christ. UR doesn't say that everyone will get the same rewards in the ages to come. I want to be one of the ones that hears God say "well done good and faithful servant, enter into thy rest." There will not be immediate rest for the unrighteous. Scripture says they will still be punished and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The lake of Fire is still not something I would wish for any of my friends or family to have to endure.


For me, once I received the revelation of UR, it was a matter of defending the true character of God. Is it right and proper for us as Chrstian's to portray God as a vengeful being who chooses to torment unbelievers for eternity with no redeeming purpose in that suffering?


I think it's quite the opposite. If the revelation of UR causes a Christian to think, why bother living a certain way, it only reveals the fact that the Christian's only motive to serve God is to avoid hell, rather than the fact that they love God and truly believe he is worthy to receive all honor blessing and glory.

We all underestimate God. Afterall the scritpure says God is able to do more than we can ask or imagine....

Why do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice is not necessary with the doctrine of UR? It is only becuase of Jesus sacrifices that anyone can be saved in this age or the next. UR does not diminish the work of the Cross at all....in fact it increases the power and reach of the cross.

I repeat, if ones motivation for outwardly serving God is simply to avoid hell, then I question whether that person has truly been born again inwardly.


Don't you think it would be preferable to God for all to come to faith in this lifetime, before we can see God with our eyes. In John 20:29, Jesus tells Thomas that he believes because he saw with his own eyes, but those who do not see and believe will be blessed. Those who aren't reconciled in this age will miss out on many blessing that those of us who do believe in this age will recieve.

I am a parent and I would never put a time limit on forgiving my children for anything wrong they did. There is nothing they could ever do to keep me from loving them. Sure they could do things to dissappoint me, but they could never do anything to keep from loving them and forgiving them. I may feel the need to punish or correct them, but my anger and wrath would not last forever. If I can love my children to that degree, how can we not expect God to love us to the same degree and beyond?

Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Why do limit God's ability to give good things to those who ask to this lifetime.

The lake of Fire is corrective. All through the bible, God uses fire as a picture and description of the purification of those he loves. Why do we think that will change in the ages to come?


And I can say the exact same thing about the doctrine of Eternal Torment. But what doctrine gives more glory to God? Which doctrine maginifies and increases the power of Jesus' work on the cross? What doctrine gives victory to enem? Don't Christians believe Satan's objective is to deceive as many as possible and drag them all to hell with him. When fully examined with an objective prespective Eternal torment portrays Satan as the victor, and Jesus not completely victorious if he truly came to save the world but the whole world isn't saved. Do you really think that the majority of the human race suffering for eternity portrays Christ as completely victorious? I don't...

We all deserve to incur his wrath, but no where in scripture does it say his wrath is eternal. It says just the opposite that his angry will only last for awhile but his mercy will endure forever. If God is truly just, then how is infinite eternal torment, just punishment for finite sins committed in a finite age? That makes no sense to me.

I believed and taught the doctrine of Eternal torment from the pulpit for many years. When I began to question it and came across the doctrine of UR, I resisted it also, as it went against everything I had been indoctrinated with. I took me a few years of praying and studying and asking God if it could really be true before I was able to fully let go of the doctrine of Eternal Torment. But when I did it brought a whole new level of faith, joy and love for God that was all new and wonderful. My trust in God increased greatly, and my faith and desire to love him with all my heart, strength, soul and mind has only grown. So i fully understand the conflict and struggle in your spirit as you wrestle with the doctrine of UR, because I was were you are at 7 or 8 years ago. I pray that God blesses you as you continue to seek after him.

You ask if it is right for us as Christians to portray God as a vengeful being who chooses to torment unbelievers for eternity? I believe it is right for us to portray God in our day to day lives, according to the example he has given us. He tells us himself that the greatest most important gift is love and that is what we should portray to others. However, I should not interpret the passages of scripture which are more difficult to understand in a way that presents God in a better light or makes Christianity more appealing. I don’t have the authority to do that. Just as Abraham trusted that God would provide an alternative sacrifice for Isaac, I have to trust that God will act in a way that he sees fit because only he knows and understands his plan. The essence of faith is trusting Him to act even though you don’t understand the reasons why. I can’t rewrite scripture to sanitise God’s plan and make it more palatable to today’s society.

Is it not possible that the only reason UR extends the power and reach of the cross because it makes God the type of God the world wants him to be? If we aren’t comfortable with a God who will save some and not save others, we’ll just move the goal posts. After all, that’s what people want, isn’t it? A God who doesn’t allow bad things to happen. A God who won’t punish people. That’s a God we can all be more comfortable with, in a world where we don’t have to make the hard choices, because at the end of the day, God is going to save us all. Is it really God’s responsibility to save is all though, or is that an uncomfortable choice we’re going to have to make for ourselves?

I don’t think we should be the ones deciding on the worthiness of a specific doctrine. We shouldn’t be deciding that one doctrine gives more glory or power to God than another. That’s not our decision to make. The foundation of any doctrine has to be grounded in the word of God. If it isn’t, then it’s simply not God’s word and we have no right to teach it.

I believe when it comes to victory between God and evil, the true victor will be life over death. Eternal death is promised to those who do not believe, while eternal life is promised to those who faithfully believe.

As regards fire being used as a symbol of purification in the Bible, that’s not my understanding. I understand fire to have been a symbol of God’s presence and of his strength and power, as well as the somewhat unknown way in which he acts. Fire/light was present as God led the Israelites through the wilderness. God’s presence was manifested in fire in the burning bush. Fire signified God’s presence in the Holy of Holies. Fire again was present at Pentecost.

I wonder what it was that changed your interpretation of the scripture so radically? Were you uncomfortable with a God who did seemingly unloving things? Isn’t that the same God who cast Adam and Eve out of Eden? Isn’t that the same God who first struck down Ananias and then Sapphira? What about the God who turned Lot’s wife to a pillar of salt? I know that God did these things yet I still put my faith and trust in Him because I believe He is a God who deserves it. I don’t always know or understand his motivation but that’s what faith is. In due time, his reasons will be understood.
I am not struggling with any conflict over UR. I find it an interesting discussion but I’m not struggling with it. There are questions I may not always know the answers to but I’m secure in my beliefs. If I am wrong, I will have to account for that.

 

[floss]

So purposeful suffering is not better than purposeless suffering? The length of any single person's suffering is only as long as it needs to be for them to let go of their sin nature and accept God for who he is.

You don't simply beleive God....you simply believe the doctrine of man made religion that you have been indoctrinated with. If you were a lover a truth, you would research the original greek meaning of the words that are translated as forever and eternal in you English bible and realize you have been deceived by organized relgiion that uses fear in an attempt to control people.

This is just your opinion based on feeling. How do you know Eternal Damnation is purposeless? You don't have the eternal mind of God. There are scriptures after scripture speaking of ET and you just ignored them. Perhaps you can't handle the truth and turn God into something more comfortable for you. I don't feel like the ET doctrine is used to inflict fears to control people. It's actually a good healthy fear of the Lord for those who believe.

no Todd, eon is not however long it take for someone to be reconciled. Eon always referred to a very long period of time (or age). Which mean there are NO short eon of torments.

Eon goes back to the Greek aiōn, "age." An age is not easy to measure, and neither is an eon. Both are just really long periods of time, but in science an eon is about a billion years.

based on its definition it's about a billion years. You're okay with the unsaves being tormented for a billion year as long as it's not ETERNAL, right?

According to Todd:
1 billion year of torments has a purpose
Eternal torments has zero purpose

see how you're splitting hairs with this?

 

[Todd]

This is just your opinion based on feeling. How do you know Eternal Damnation is purposeless? You don't have the eternal mind of God. There are scriptures after scripture speaking of ET and you just ignored them. Perhaps you can't handle the truth and turn God into something more comfortable for you. I don't feel like the ET doctrine is used to inflict fears to control people. It's actually a good healthy fear of the Lord for those who believe.

no Todd, eon is not however long it take for someone to be reconciled. Eon always referred to a very long period of time (or age). Which mean there are NO short eon of torments.

Eon goes back to the Greek aiōn, "age." An age is not easy to measure, and neither is an eon. Both are just really long periods of time, but in science an eon is about a billion years.

based on its definition it's about a billion years. You're okay with the unsaves being tormented for a billion year as long as it's not ETERNAL, right?

According to Todd:
1 billion year of torments has a purpose
Eternal torments has zero purpose

see how you're splitting hairs with this?

I didn't know the authors of the books of the bible were Geologist's, LOL!

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English), originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time". In Homer it typically refers to life or lifespan.

A lifetime of punishment for a lifetime of sin? That sounds reasonable. Of course the word aeon is describing the duration of the Lake of Fire itself, not neccesarily the duration of each individual's punishment and purification. If the duration of the Lake of Fire is really a billion years as you dubiously claim, then maybe the hardest most vile and wicked sinner there ever was, will really need that long to be reconciled to God. But that would require God being incredibly patient and long suffering and having an intense, undeniable desire for every single person to be reconciled to him. You know someone who was so passionate about it that he would make the ultimate sacrifice (his beloved son, perhaps?) to make sure it happens. That would be crazy to think God could love us that much, right?

It's actually quite absurd that God would give his Son to be the saviour of the entire world, only to make the deadline for each soul to last only 80-100 years, in a fallen world, where the truth is veiled, and the satan is given free reign to so easily deceive. It's like God played a big joke on his son.

God:" Son. I want you to endure a horrid crucifixion, die and descend into hell, to pay for the sins of the entire world. No worries, because you are sinless you will be resurrected and every other human that has died and was just going cease to exist, will be able to be resurrected also because of what you have done. Satan will be defeated and the power of sin and death wil be defeated"

Jesus: "Okay Dad, because I love you and trust you, even though I don't really want to do it, I choose your will instead of mine."

God after Jesus' death and resurrection: "Just kidding Son, I only planned on a couple people actually believing what you did was real, because I'm going to let Satan continue to be the ruler of the world, even though you did everything required to defeat him. You don't really get to defeat him totally until after I throw the majority of this miserable thing I created, called humanity, into hell. Even though I was just going to let them all die and remain in asleep in the grave, because of your sacrifice and resurrection, they will now all be resurrected and judged. I'm going to make all of them, who Satan deceived to not believe I really loved them and that you were willing to die for, burn in hell forever!
Jesus: "Great Dad, I'm so glad I went through all of that so you can torture the majority of mankind for the rest of eternity. I know complete and total justice is so very important to you...make them all pay for eternity! Thanks for the handful of people who actually believed every doctrine of the Bible exactly right, so I could have a few souls to rule and reign over noboby with me."

Yeah that's awesome! God is great, Blah, blah, blah.....
Seriously, that is the story of the Loving God and his victorious Son, you are portraying to world. It's a pretty crappy, misreable story if it's true.

 

[Lisa]

In response to the above on “annihilation”, there is another possibility outlined by David Daniels:-

As we are presently body, soul and either recreated, born again spirit or old sin nature. We can currently choose to be reconciled to God.

On the other hand, there will be those who will not die to self and bow the knee at the foot of the cross, but instead insist on hanging on to their cherished sin nature. To their horror they will find that their spirit of rebellion* will be the only thing about “them” that remains, eternally separate from God.

*Now is a great time to let go of that rebellion.

I don’t think Todd will be able to come back from falling away from the faith.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭​

 

[Lisa]

Almost all christians believe that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

They will bow out of fear or they will bow out of love.

Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels was loved. People loved Jesus. It is unimaginable that after having won them over with his love and having so convinced them of his love that they bow before him in submission that he would then turn on them and subject them to eternal conscious torment.

His plan is to redeem and to restore his creation fully. His plans will be fulfilled.

Matthew‬ ‭7:22-23‬ ‭
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.​

God is not only love...and not everyone loved Jesus..otherwise He would not have been crucified.
‭‭

 

[Hon33]

I didn't know the authors of the books of the bible were Geologist's, LOL!

The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon (in American English), originally meant "life", "vital force" or "being", "generation" or "a period of time". In Homer it typically refers to life or lifespan.

A lifetime of punishment for a lifetime of sin? That sounds reasonable. Of course the word aeon is describing the duration of the Lake of Fire itself, not neccesarily the duration of each individual's punishment and purification. If the duration of the Lake of Fire is really a billion years as you dubiously claim, then maybe the hardest most vile and wicked sinner there ever was, will really need that long to be reconciled to God. But that would require God being incredibly patient and long suffering and having an intense, undeniable desire for every single person to be reconciled to him. You know someone who was so passionate about it that he would make the ultimate sacrifice (his beloved son, perhaps?) to make sure it happens. That would be crazy to think God could love us that much, right?

It's actually quite absurd that God would give his Son to be the saviour of the entire world, only to make the deadline for each soul to last only 80-100 years, in a fallen world, where the truth is veiled, and the satan is given free reign to so easily deceive. It's like God played a big joke on his son.

God:" Son. I want you to endure a horrid crucifixion, die and descend into hell, to pay for the sins of the entire world. No worries, because you are sinless you will be resurrected and every other human that has died and was just going cease to exist, will be able to be resurrected also because of what you have done. Satan will be defeated and the power of sin and death wil be defeated"

Jesus: "Okay Dad, because I love you and trust you, even though I don't really want to do it, I choose your will instead of mine."

God after Jesus' death and resurrection: "Just kidding Son, I only planned on a couple people actually believing what you did was real, because I'm going to let Satan continue to be the ruler of the world, even though you did everything required to defeat him. You don't really get to defeat him totally until after I throw the majority of this miserable thing I created, called humanity, into hell. Even though I was just going to let them all die and remain in asleep in the grave, because of your sacrifice and resurrection, they will now all be resurrected and judged. I'm going to make all of them, who Satan deceived to not believe I really loved them and that you were willing to die for, burn in hell forever!
Jesus: "Great Dad, I'm so glad I went through all of that so you can torture the majority of mankind for the rest of eternity. I know complete and total justice is so very important to you...make them all pay for eternity! Thanks for the handful of people who actually believed every doctrine of the Bible exactly right, so I could have a few souls to rule and reign over noboby with me."

Yeah that's awesome! God is great, Blah, blah, blah.....
Seriously, that is the story of the Loving God and his victorious Son, you are portraying to world. It's a pretty crappy, misreable story if it's true.

You see I’m inclined to believe that it would be an even more incredibly cruel joke for God to sacrifice His Son and then tell Him that He was going to give non-believers infinite time to repent.
Christ understood the terms of the cross. He knew that not everyone would be saved. He understand that salvation was dependent on repentance.
I mean, aren’t you worried at all that those who repent after death will only do so because it has become all too obvious what they are going to endure? Is that real repentance?

 

[floss]

I don’t think Todd will be able to come back from falling away from the faith.

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
‭‭​

do you have a clear scripture defining "falling away from the faith"? Todd haven't denounced Jesus nor did he became an atheist/buddhist/hindu/muslim...etc

 

[Lisa]

do you have a clear scripture defining "falling away from the faith"? Todd haven't denounced Jesus nor did he became an atheist/buddhist/hindu/muslim...etc

Todd has obviously fallen away from the truth faith. He says he once was a pastor who believed the things from the Bible and now he says he doesn’t believe Paul’s writings, doesn’t believe in hell, etc...from that, he’s fallen away.

I just gave you the clear scripture and how you can’t come back from it. Can just anyone be made partakers of the Holy Spirit? No, one must believe to be saved and to receive the Holy Spirit. They are believers in this verse. God says taste and see that I am good and this verse says that they have tasted the good word of God. then it says they then fell away and when that happens then they can’t come back from it...it is impossible to renew them again to repentance..

Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
​

Or think about Romans 11..the kindness and severity of God..

Romans‬ ‭11:22‬ ‭
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

Being a pastor doesn't automatically mean they are save. It seem like there are many ways to label someone as a fallen away. I just to know if there are scriptures going into detail of those who are fallen?

What I meant was..we can only go by what he’s said since we don’t actually know Todd in real life.


I gave you the scripture that talks about falling away and what happens to you when you do. I’m not sure how you can’t see what that scripture is talking about honestly, floss. It’s like you have a mental block against it.

 

[floss]

What I meant was..we can only go by what he’s said since we don’t actually know Todd in real life.


I gave you the scripture that talks about falling away and what happens to you when you do. I’m not sure how you can’t see what that scripture is talking about honestly, floss. It’s like you have a mental block against it.

Lol sorry I just deleted that post...It's honestly not very clear what fallen away truly mean. Your key point was someone used to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Does this mean the fallen stopped being a partaker of the Holy Spirit? I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of the nature of those fallen one.

 

[Lisa]

Lol sorry I just deleted that post...It's honestly not very clear what fallen away truly mean. Your key point was someone used to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Does this mean the fallen stopped being a partaker of the Holy Spirit? I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding of the nature of those fallen one.

Who can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit? That is the key to this verse. The only people I know that can have the Holy Spirit (become partakers) are believers in Jesus. So that also jives with

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

This verse tells us how the falling away happens..you pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons...you are deceived.

Remember a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough...one must believe correctly...testing yourself to see that you are in the truth. It’s all in that post I posted about once saved always saved is no bueno.

 

[Todd]

You see I’m inclined to believe that it would be an even more incredibly cruel joke for God to sacrifice His Son and then tell Him that He was going to give non-believers infinite time to repent.
Christ understood the terms of the cross. He knew that not everyone would be saved. He understand that salvation was dependent on repentance.

Where did Jesus ever say he knew that his sacrifice would not forgive the sins of the entire world? 1 Timothy 4:10 says Jeusus " is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Notice it says "especailly" of those that believe and not "exclusively" of those that believe. How can Jesus be the Savior of all men, and not save all men. If not all men are saved and Jesus is the savior of all men, then he wil have failed in his mission and what the Bible says he is.

Where did Jesus ever say that we only have until death in this temporary age to repent and believe in him?

I mean, aren’t you worried at all that those who repent after death will only do so because it has become all too obvious what they are going to endure? Is that real repentance?

No I'm not worried at all...I have complete faith in God to draw, forgive and sanctify every person he ever created. He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver...

Why is that any different to all the people who get "saved" in this lifetime only to avoid what they superstisously believe they might endure in the age to come? The fact that many Christian's reponse to UR is "well if that is true, why should I serve God and live a Christian life now" only proves that their motivation for repenting is to avoid hell, and not because they really love God and really are truly repentant of their sin. Their response is proof they don't really believe that living the christian life, "the Way" that Jesus taught, in the here and now, is a blessing. To them it's just what is required to avoid hell. Why do you think that is more pleasing to God, then a wicked person who after dying and being punished in the Lake of Fire, eventually sees God for who he really is and repents, is truly sorrowful and is eventually reconciled to him?

I guess I fail to see the difference why God's mercy and desire for everyone to be reconciled to him, suddenly ceases to exist after this current age ends. His mercy endures forever, his wrath and anger does not.

 

[TokiEl]

Matthew‬ ‭7:22-23‬ ‭
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.​

God is not only love...and not everyone loved Jesus..otherwise He would not have been crucified.
‭‭

Do you have a problem with the crucifixion of Jesus ?

I get the impression that you think His crucifixion was a bad thing.

 

[Lisa]

Do you have a problem with the crucifixion of Jesus ?

I get the impression that you think His crucifixion was a bad thing.

No, I don’t have a problem that Jesus died for my sins. However..usually people don’t kill someone they love.

 

[floss]

Who can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit? That is the key to this verse. The only people I know that can have the Holy Spirit (become partakers) are believers in Jesus. So that also jives with

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

This verse tells us how the falling away happens..you pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons...you are deceived.

Remember a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough...one must believe correctly...testing yourself to see that you are in the truth. It’s all in that post I posted about once saved always saved is no bueno.

It seem like the only key point you have regarding someone losing their salvation is those who are once partaker of the Holy Spirit and fell away to demonic doctrines. There are zero proof that being falling away mean losing salvation. Being a partaker of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily mean they have the HS inside them. Was Judas a partaker of the Holy Spirit? Did Judas loose his salvation?

So far all the promises of eternal security outweigh this one key point that you have. You literally will have to throw out all the following verses just to make it work.

John 14:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jude 24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

John 10:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Ephesians 4:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Our salvation are in God's hand now once you're born again. He's powerful enough to save you, He's powerful enough to keep you no matter what. Believing you can lose it by your works, mean you reject his ability to keep you. Once you're born again, you're His forever. You didn't work for your salvation, how can you lose it? Salvation is a GIFT, right? What kind of God give you a GIFT, then take it back? Sorry, but not the one I knew. A lot of people "think" they have this gift, however they will be the one Jesus say he never knew them. They were never born again in the spirit. They might walk and talk like a born again believer but the truth is their salvation has always been Jesus + Them. Only Jesus get to be glorified because he did all the works. Believing you can do something to lose your salvation, you're saying the power of the cross is NOT enough, you have to do something extras on your end of the deal. This turn into a work base salvation and I believe it's dangerous.

Can you answer this? If you have eternal life this moment and lose it 10 year later, was it ever eternal to begin with?

For Todd's case, this make more sense.
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Todd]

 

[Todd]

You see I’m inclined to believe that it would be an even more incredibly cruel joke for God to sacrifice His Son and then tell Him that He was going to give non-believers infinite time to repent.

Really? If I gave my life to save someone, I would hope that no one would ever take away the ability for the person to accept that. Otherwise it becomes a wasted sacrifice.

 

[phipps]

It seem like the only key point you have regarding someone losing their salvation is those who are once partaker of the Holy Spirit and fell away to demonic doctrines. There are zero proof that being falling away mean losing salvation. Being a partaker of the Holy Spirit does not mean necessarily mean they have the HS inside them. Was Judas a partaker of the Holy Spirit? Did Judas loose his salvation?

So far all the promises of eternal security outweigh this one key point that you have. You literally will have to throw out all the following verses just to make it work.

John 14:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jude 24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

John 10:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Ephesians 4:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Our salvation are in God's hand now once you're born again. He's powerful enough to save you, He's powerful enough to keep you no matter what. Believing you can lose it by your works, mean you reject his ability to keep you. Once you're born again, you're His forever. You didn't work for your salvation, how can you lose it? Salvation is a GIFT, right? What kind of God give you a GIFT, then take it back? Sorry, but not the one I knew. A lot of people "think" they have this gift, however they will be the one Jesus say he never knew them. They were never born again in the spirit. They might walk and talk like a born again believer but the truth is their salvation has always been Jesus + Them. Only Jesus get to be glorified because he did all the works. Believing you can do something to lose your salvation, you're saying the power of the cross is NOT enough, you have to do something extras on your end of the deal. This turn into a work base salvation and I believe it's dangerous.

Can you answer this? If you have eternal life this moment and lose it 10 year later, was it ever eternal to begin with?

For Todd's case, this make more sense.
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Holy Spirit abides in those who allow God to abide in them. If (remember this word?) they don't, God can't force Himself on us. We can grieve or quench the Holy spirit. We are warned not to do that.

Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." This means people can grieve the Holy Spirit and do sadly.

1 Thessalonians 5:19, "Do not quench the Spirit."

The Holy Spirit is God. He is a personal being with feelings. That is why He can be grieved. What happens when we grieve or quench the the Holy Spirit? We do it by failing to accept and believe in His power to help us overcome every weakness, every sin that separates us from God. It is a sin of unbelief, and wilful neglect or denial of the power and provision God has given for our transformation.

It is through the Holy Spirit that we become God's children. Romans 8:14 tells us that, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons (children) of God." The Spirit gives us life. And John 6:63 says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." People without the Spirit are spiritually dead.

God does not separate Himself from us, we separate from Him when we exercise our free will (we will always have free will) not to listen to Him through the Holy Spirit. And there are examples of people in the Bible who did that. The examples are there to show us the consequences of grieving or resisting the Holy spirit to the point we commit the unpardonable sin.

Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? It is a constant resisting of the Holy Spirit, so that we lose the capacity to hear its voice. The conscience becomes seared (1 Timothy 4:2).

As fallen, sinful and weak humans we must depend on God continuously. If we resist, ignore or fight we will be taken out of the book of life. We won't be saved any more. I have repeatedly posted here that our salvation is not based on one decision we made in our lives to be saved when we began our Christian journey. That decision is very important and if we died there and then we would be saved eternally. But when we continue living we have to have continuing relationship with God. Only those that endure to the end will make it. It is not biblical at all and therefore not of God to say a person can never lose their salvation once they’ve accepted the gift of salvation

Once saved always saved takes takes away the free will that we were all created with. Even after we accept God as our personal Saviour, we always have freedom of choice. God does not take away a person’s right to freely choose or change their mind once he or she becomes a Christian. It is possible to be lost once you’ve been saved. We know because of the stories and examples in the Bible.

God is all powerful but He is also Love. Because He loves us He does not force Himself on us. He respects our choices. God created all of us to be free. He gave us the power to choose between good and evil and right and wrong. And He gave us the power to choose between life and death. That is a precious gift God gave us! Everyone of us is responsible for the choices that we make. That means some will choose the wrong way even after some of them were saved.