Can meaning exist without God?

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
Isn't most of that caused by our attitude towards life and immoderate desires?

Then it's not too late. Such contemplation afforded me perspective. The heavens, which have been called god's dwelling place by every nation and tongue capable of conceiving a god, are clearly unaffected by the fall, as Plotinus writes in his treatise: "All that occasions vice here below is unknown there evil of body, perturbed and perturbing." To say otherwise is to expose god to the corruption of "the fall".

It's not a bad thing to give the heavens the respect they are due.

Matthew 5:34-35 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool

How is that any different from the apparent responsibilities on earth? There's nothing new about that, except it's made exclusive to a section of peoples. It said a new heaven and new earth. It follows that there will be new responsibilities.
Our attitudes don’t cause any of that but it can be affected by all of that. A new perspective is always refreshing, there’s nothing wrong with pondering the mysteries of the world. What do you believe if you don’t mind me asking? I respect and am I awe of how vast and beautiful the heavens are but I’m even more impressed by the God that created it all.
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:4‬ ‭
I’m sure there will be new responsibilities. It would be a completely different world than what we’ve ever known though so I have no idea what those responsibilities will be, probably something way better than we can image.
 

Illuminized

Established
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
206
Our attitudes don’t cause any of that but it can be affected by all of that. A new perspective is always refreshing, there’s nothing wrong with pondering the mysteries of the world. What do you believe if you don’t mind me asking? I respect and am I awe of how vast and beautiful the heavens are but I’m even more impressed by the God that created it all.
“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:4‬ ‭
I’m sure there will be new responsibilities. It would be a completely different world than what we’ve ever known though so I have no idea what those responsibilities will be, probably something way better than we can image.
How can you be sure they aren't the root causes?
 

Illuminized

Established
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
206
Where is there any indication that attitude is the root cause of sickness, suffering and pain in humans and animals?
One: I have experience. I compare a photo of me when I was a baby with my current self. One where I am praying. Looked like an angel. But I used to tell myself during my school days that I was hideous, ugly, disgusting. That eventually reflected on my physical appearance. Everywhere, my whole body became deformed, right down to my feet.

Two: Science. Plenty of research pointing towards this. (not the best example: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/bad-attitude-making-sick/story?id=32194211 )

Negative attitude must account for at least 3/4th of human suffering.
 

Todd

Star
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,525
Where is there any indication that attitude is the root cause of sickness, suffering and pain in humans and animals?
faith is an attitude. If we have faith, we can see the effects of the fall of creation reversed. God can and will deliver us from the curse of sin, if we have faith. So it follows that attitude has much to do with the suffering and pain in the world.

Do you not believe that a good portion of the suffering of the world is caused by other human beings? Action follows attitude. If everyone had a loving attitude towards their neighbor there would be significantly less suffering in the world.
 

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
faith is an attitude. If we have faith, we can see the effects of the fall of creation reversed. God can and will deliver us from the curse of sin, if we have faith. So it follows that attitude has much to do with the suffering and pain in the world.

Do you not believe that a good portion of the suffering of the world is caused by other human beings? Action follows attitude. If everyone had a loving attitude towards their neighbor there would be significantly less suffering in the world.
No ones saying that attitude has no effect on negative outcomes but I don’t see how it’s the root cause. We don’t like in a world where we’re capable of defying sin based purely on human will. A good portion of the suffering in this world is cause by Satan not humans. Humans may carry out the action but Satan and his minions are the one leading them astray. Is attitude preventing us from being loving always or is it our sinful nature?
 

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
One: I have experience. I compare a photo of me when I was a baby with my current self. One where I am praying. Looked like an angel. But I used to tell myself during my school days that I was hideous, ugly, disgusting. That eventually reflected on my physical appearance. Everywhere, my whole body became deformed, right down to my feet.

Two: Science. Plenty of research pointing towards this. (not the best example: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/bad-attitude-making-sick/story?id=32194211 )

Negative attitude must account for at least 3/4th of human suffering.
A negative attitude can definitely account to personal suffering, that’s pretty apparent with stress and depression. It takes a toll on your health. To say that negative attitudes contribute to most human suffering eh idk. I’m at work but I’ll read your link when I get some time
 

Kung Fu

Superstar
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
5,087
No ones saying that attitude has no effect on negative outcomes but I don’t see how it’s the root cause. We don’t like in a world where we’re capable of defying sin based purely on human will. A good portion of the suffering in this world is cause by Satan not humans. Humans may carry out the action but Satan and his minions are the one leading them astray. Is attitude preventing us from being loving always or is it our sinful nature?
Humans have freewill. Satan can't make you do anything you don't want to do. You have the final say if you want to listen to his whispers or walk the straight path. You're responsible for your own actions. You make your bed and you sleep in it.
 

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
Humans have freewill. Satan can't make you do anything you don't want to do. You have the final say if you want to listen to his whispers or walk the straight path. You're responsible for your own actions. You make your bed and you sleep in it.
Well, he who is without sin can cast the first stone. Adam and Eve were more intimate with God than any of us and they were still deceived by Satan. We have free will but we also have an adversary actively working against us. A lot of people don’t have a relationship with God, no spiritual guidance to guard their hearts makes it easy to be deceived. Even those of us who do have a relationship with God still make poor choices at times. Humans are too easily satisfied, if we weren’t we wouldn’t reject the only one who can truly satisfy our souls.
 

Illuminized

Established
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
206
No ones saying that attitude has no effect on negative outcomes but I don’t see how it’s the root cause. We don’t like in a world where we’re capable of defying sin based purely on human will. A good portion of the suffering in this world is cause by Satan not humans. Humans may carry out the action but Satan and his minions are the one leading them astray. Is attitude preventing us from being loving always or is it our sinful nature?
It has been said that the root of all kinds of evil was money, but that's not actually pinpoint. That is a symptom. The root of evil is laziness, which is an attitude. Why are the elites trying so hard to accumulate wealth? Isn't it so they can sit back and relax at our expense?

Satan can't be blamed for people failing to do what is necessary.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,963
It has been said that the root of all kinds of evil was money, but that's not actually pinpoint. That is a symptom. The root of evil is laziness, which is an attitude. Why are the elites trying so hard to accumulate wealth? Isn't it so they can sit back and relax at our expense?

Satan can't be blamed for people failing to do what is necessary.
Laziness is certainly a root of evil, but perhaps the deepest root of all is pride.

Pride puts self at the centre, or to make it VCF friendly, at the point of the pyramid. Evolutionary psychology pats you on the back on the way up the greasy pole of success as people clamour for the top spot.

Contrast the "Gospel" of the elites with Jesus. He never got the red carpet treatment...

Philippians 2

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

On the subject of fulfillment in life, Jesus's half-brother, James wrote a few words that seem to sum up what ordinary humanity is frequently like, when he asks the question of where wars and fights come from...

James 4

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet[a] you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Pretty much sums up the philosophy of the "elites" to me...
 
Last edited:

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
It has been said that the root of all kinds of evil was money, but that's not actually pinpoint. That is a symptom. The root of evil is laziness, which is an attitude. Why are the elites trying so hard to accumulate wealth? Isn't it so they can sit back and relax at our expense?

Satan can't be blamed for people failing to do what is necessary.
It’s about power and control more than actual money. What about animals? Their attitudes cause pain suffering and disease too?
 

Todd

Star
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,525
No ones saying that attitude has no effect on negative outcomes but I don’t see how it’s the root cause. We don’t like in a world where we’re capable of defying sin based purely on human will. A good portion of the suffering in this world is cause by Satan not humans. Humans may carry out the action but Satan and his minions are the one leading them astray. Is attitude preventing us from being loving always or is it our sinful nature?
Well now your just arguing semantics. I agree that without the grace of God, we are not capable of changing our attitude...after all the meaning of repentance is basically an attitude change that should result in changed behavior.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
3,259
“. it is better to study how to live rather than how to die; ... it is better to have a religion of deeds rather than a religion of creeds; ... it is better to work for humanity than for God.”

- Voltairine De Cleyre

Yes, and we can define that meaning ourselves instead of having it defined for us.
 
Top