Can meaning exist without God?

Damien50

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If there’s no God and we’re all just here by chance in a finite universe with death patiently waiting to claim us all, then wouldn't life be meaningless? You’d gain nothing and lose everything. I hope you value your existence as more than an accidental byproduct of nature.
Isn't it only going to be meaningless because you believe that with God there is meaning and without there is nothing?
 

Damien50

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I think among Christians or generally deeply religious people should be many who aren't afraid of death at all. Than the moment comes it maybe be scary, but not before.
At a base level no one wants to die just yet. They might not fear death but I think there is a fear of not accomplishing.
 

Violette

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I think among Christians or generally deeply religious people should be many who aren't afraid of death at all. Than the moment comes it maybe be scary, but not before.
For sure, I feel certaint about my faith and where I’ll go so that doesn’t really scare me. I think absoluteness is what’s daunting.
 

Vytas

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At a base level no one wants to die just yet. They might not fear death but I think there is a fear of not accomplishing.
Or if there is a realization that they irreparably failed to accomplish something, they commit suicide...
 

rainerann

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Hebrews 2:14-15
Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil— and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death.
 

Damien50

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It was really depressing to see them suffer like that.

God aside, there’s ultimately no value to anything if it’s all just going to die with time.
But that's how you define meaning because of the influence of God. Could you imagine yourself but with God having never existed with no premise of a higher power? Determining value is such subjective thing when one man's trash could very well be another's treasure.
 

Violette

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But that's how you define meaning because of the influence of God. Could you imagine yourself but with God having never existed with no premise of a higher power? Determining value is such subjective thing when one man's trash could very well be another's treasure.
I dont think I could imagine that because I don’t believe it’s probable or possible really for life to arise on its own by chance while also having so much specificity, order, and complexity. I’m defining meaning by its ultimate value. I don’t buy into relativism. Value can be subjective but there’s also objective value and that can only exist if it survives beyond us. There’s either something after this world or it isn’t, this isn’t going to last forever.
 

elsbet

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But that's how you define meaning because of the influence of God. Could you imagine yourself but with God having never existed with no premise of a higher power? Determining value is such subjective thing when one man's trash could very well be another's treasure.
I cannot fathom this. As early as I can remember, there was an inner dialogue that presupposed an audience. I kind of think it's instinctual-- for most people anyway.
 

rainerann

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I cannot fathom this. As early as I can remember, there was an inner dialogue that presupposed an audience. I kind of think it's instinctual-- for most people anyway.
"there was an inner dialogue that presupposed an audience. I kind of think it's instinctual-- "

That's super deep elsbet. I have been looking for a way to explain the same experience for years and always felt that it was beyond words. I have to save this for later.
 

elsbet

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"there was an inner dialogue that presupposed an audience. I kind of think it's instinctual-- "

That's super deep elsbet. I have been looking for a way to explain the same experience for years and always felt that it was beyond words. I have to save this for later.
Well.. then it's probably for your benefit, from God-- not me :)
 

mecca

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If you ever spend any time in a hospital, you will find that most people are not content with the idea that life is finite. I have seen people in their 90's who were full code because either the patient or the family were not ready for the idea that their life would end even though they had reached old age, maybe even living longer than many people will be able to live.

Most people in the hospital know that when you do chest compressions on someone in their 90's because it is part of full code status, their ribs can break under the compressions. Still, this is something many people decide to do even when they have reached old age, even when the patient is suffering in such a way as to cause their family to make health decisions for them. Family members will seek to keep their family members on full code even when they can't decide one way or the other for themselves and they are as old as 90.

Most people are not okay with a finite life. It just rubs everyone the wrong way, but many people respond to this reality differently.
Ok... I'm not saying that many people embrace death, I'm saying that the fact that we all die can give someone a sense of meaning.
 

Illuminized

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I’m sure whatever occurs in the spiritual world isn’t limited by the laws of nature that apply here in this world.
There are surely cosmic laws in existence.

The movement of the earth didn’t change after the fall of man so I’m not really following you...?
If the movement of the luminary bodies didn't change (i.e. sun still rises and sets), and we see similar things occurring on our earth (four seasons: fall, winter, spring, summer), then how can this world be in a fallen state? Even the animals hold fast to their habits and activities (i.e. hibernation) and associate only with their own kind. You would have to say that god cursed man alone yet Gen. 3 says god cursed the ground in his stead.

I agree, there will be work to do in heaven. We will serve Him and we will no longer suffer from sin.
Serve him by singing songs?
 

Illuminized

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The more I know about Islam the more I find it fascinating...I suppose that would suggest Allah created life on many planets. A bit like the Bible's "In my father's house there are many mansions."
I'm sure there's much more where that came from. Mohammed evidently attempted to endow the Jewish-Christian verses with rational content, such as an addition to Psalm 19:1, "And yet ye understand not how they declare his glory!" Or as seen in the Islamic adaption of the creation narrative, Quran 21:30-33, with the clarifications: "and We separated them and made from water every living thing", "all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming".

We must definitely rid ourselves of the perverse notion that this earth is the only world he concerns himself with.
 

elsbet

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Religions and world views that include a creator do have a life with purpose. Life without God is just random chances. Even coincidences are pretty strange without God. I’m sure whatever occurs in the spiritual world isn’t limited by the laws of nature that apply here in this world. The movement of the earth didn’t change after the fall of man so I’m not really following you...? I agree, there will be work to do in heaven. We will serve Him and we will no longer suffer from sin.
I can't imagine the spiritual world being limited like that either @Violette . Though he does bring up a good point, in a way:

These people must explain how the movement of the planets were affected by this..


... this also is being called into question-- finally. And that's a good thing.
 

Vytas

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I cannot fathom this. As early as I can remember, there was an inner dialogue that presupposed an audience. I kind of think it's instinctual-- for most people anyway.
For me it's a sense of being watched 24/7 for as long as i can remember, even when i wasn't a Christian i felt it almost physically, now it's as natural as breathing...Faith crisis is completely alien concept for me...But i suppose im lucky...or crazy :)
 

elsbet

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For me it's a sense of being watched 24/7 for as long as i can remember, even when i wasn't a Christian i felt it almost physically, now it's as natural as breathing...Faith crisis is completely alien concept for me...But i suppose im lucky...or crazy :)
lol

I remember a time when I was hyper-aware of being watched too.. probably 3rd grade I think? I believed, but I recall wondering who the heck it was sometimes. Once you understand the reality of the spirit world, it doesn't sound quite so CRAZY. :p
 

Violette

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There are surely cosmic laws in existence.

If the movement of the luminary bodies didn't change (i.e. sun still rises and sets), and we see similar things occurring on our earth (four seasons: fall, winter, spring, summer), then how can this world be in a fallen state? Even the animals hold fast to their habits and activities (i.e. hibernation) and associate only with their own kind. You would have to say that god cursed man alone yet Gen. 3 says god cursed the ground in his stead.

Serve him by singing songs?
Yeah, there’s cosmic laws but it doesn’t dictate the supernatural/spiritual world.
The fall is most apparent in biological life. It caused pain, suffering, disease, and death. How the fall affected the celestial bodies? My first thought was maybe the law of decay but that law was set at creation, it’s necessary law for life. Theoretically, if Adam and Eve didn’t sin they couldve lived forever so there must’ve been something to counterbalance and restore the decaying energy before the fall. When the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for forty years their clothes and shoes didn’t wear out, there was clearly divine intervention to prevent that. This is just my answer though I’m no expert. I’ve never really thought about how the fall affected the cosmos but I have wondered why there are more planets besides earth and what’s their role in the universe is.
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Venus is associated with femininity and sexuality and Saturn for some reason is associated with Satan. I believe there’s answers to all the questions we have about the cosmos but not everything is going to be revealed to us in this state. If you look to the heavens for answers instead of God then you’re not too far off from astrology.
Why do you think we’ll only serve him by singing songs? There will be singing in heaven, he’s worthy of praise. The only responsibilities in heaven that I can recall from scripture is that we will serve him and he who has been “faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler of many things”.
 

Illuminized

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The fall is most apparent in biological life. It caused pain, suffering, disease, and death.
Isn't most of that caused by our attitude towards life and immoderate desires?

I’ve never really thought about how the fall affected the cosmos but I have wondered why there are more planets besides earth and what’s their role in the universe is.
Then it's not too late. Such contemplation afforded me perspective. The heavens, which have been called god's dwelling place by every nation and tongue capable of conceiving a god, are clearly unaffected by the fall, as Plotinus writes in his treatise: "All that occasions vice here below is unknown there evil of body, perturbed and perturbing." To say otherwise is to expose god to the corruption of "the fall".

If you look to the heavens for answers instead of God then you’re not too far off from astrology.
It's not a bad thing to give the heavens the respect they are due.

Matthew 5:34-35 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool

Why do you think we’ll only serve him by singing songs? There will be singing in heaven, he’s worthy of praise. The only responsibilities in heaven that I can recall from scripture is that we will serve him and he who has been “faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler of many things”.
How is that any different from the apparent responsibilities on earth? There's nothing new about that, except it's made exclusive to a section of peoples. It said a new heaven and new earth. It follows that there will be new responsibilities.
 
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