Blood sacrifice. Are they divine or satanic?

Red Sky at Morning

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The translators of the KJV evidently went for card one: evil. Even if the Hebrew word means and includes all three words, so be it. In English, "God creates ... evil."
or adversity / calamity ;-)

even though I usually quote from the KJV / NKJV I am aware that they are translations. Young’s Literal and the Interlinear are well worth checking when the meaning hinges on a single word!
 






Lisa

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It's sort of like a card game: pick a card, any card. The competent, multi-lingual translators of the KJV clearly thought 'evil' a better, more accurate word than your preferred 'calamity.' In any case, as I see it, it's not your Bible which opted for 'calamity,' but rather your preferred translators of the Bible.
The NASB is the closest literal translation...the kjv is mired in archaic language which we cannot really understand today, which is why I don’t like it.

I think any Christian would tell you the same thing..God is not evil nor does He direct evil.
Psalms‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.​
‭‭
But I can’t say the same for the ruler of this world..
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.​
 






Red Sky at Morning

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The NASB is the closest literal translation...the kjv is mired in archaic language which we cannot really understand today, which is why I don’t like it.
Just wondering - would you reject the NKJV on the same grounds?
 






Serveto

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The NASB is the closest literal translation...the kjv is mired in archaic language which we cannot really understand today, which is why I don’t like it.

I think any Christian would tell you the same thing..God is not evil nor does He direct evil.
Psalms‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.​
‭‭
But I can’t say the same for the ruler of this world..
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.​
The word 'evil' is not archaic, and Red already linked to the Hebrew word, which includes 'evil' among the literal, that's right, literal options. Choose whichever translation best suits your purposes, but Prophet Isaiah clearly said that God makes peace and creates evil, at least as it is sometimes translated into English, and that by the best linguists King James could afford to employ for his monumental project -his gift to English-speaking Protestants.

This is not to say, however, that God is subject to anything He creates. To me, that is a separate, side topic.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Not meaning to quibble, but I don't read it as 'or,' I read it as 'and.' Then again, it's the Bible, and I admit that I don't read it often :).
Just like English, Hebrew and Greek contain nuances and alternate meanings. It is good to look at the ways the same words are used elsewhere, particularly by the same writers. As the meaning of words are sometimes subtle and require learning and context to draw out the right ones, the task of the translator is a challenging one!*

*Made worse if they give undue credence to the critical text beloved of Westcott & Hort (but that’s another thread ;-)
 






Serveto

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Just like English, Hebrew and Greek contain nuances and alternate meanings. It is good to look at the ways the same words are used elsewhere, particularly by the same writers. As the meaning of words are sometimes subtle and require learning and context to draw out the right ones, the task of the translator is a challenging one!*

*Made worse if they give undue credence to the critical text beloved of Westcott & Hort (but that’s another thread ;-)
As an aside, If God didn't create evil, who did? Is there now thought to be a co-creator?
 






Lisa

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The word 'evil' is not archaic, and Red already linked to the Hebrew word, which includes 'evil' among the literal, that's right, literal options. Choose whichever translation best suits your purposes, but Prophet Isaiah clearly said that God makes peace and creates evil, at least as it is sometimes translated into English, and that by the best linguists King James could afford to employ for his monumental project -his gift to English-speaking Protestants.

This is not to say, however, that God is subject to anything He creates. To me, that is a separate, side topic.
God is not evil so I don’t think we can say that He does evil as well, but calamity is a different thing, I can see people thinking calamity is evil though.

The kjv is archaic and maybe they should have used calamity instead of evil...they did think on a different way back then, which is what I mean.
 






Lisa

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As an aside, If God didn't create evil, who did? Is there now thought to be a co-creator?
Ya know the tree that God told Adam not to eat of? That was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..also satan is evil.
 






Serveto

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Ya know the tree that God told Adam not to eat of? That was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..also satan is evil.
My question is not who is evil, but who created good and evil? Are there two gods: one good, the other evil? As @AspiringSoul rightly said above, this idea of two opposed and opposing gods is Manichean dualism, an idea the Church, as a corporate body, rejected long ago.
 






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Red Sky at Morning

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My question is not who is evil, but who created good and evil? Are there two gods: one good, the other evil? As @AspiringSoul rightly said above, this idea of two opposed and opposing gods is Manichean dualism, an idea the Church, as a corporate body, rejected long ago.
Leaving the Isaiah verse for a second (I will get to it), I remember teaching some kids about energy at high school (years before I had watched the Einstein clip). Brainstorming the different kinds of energy, one young man put his hand up high and said “cold energy, sir, like in fridges?”.

He was very suspicious of my explanation of the fact that cold is simply the absence of heat. Free will and the choice of goodness creates the possibility of evil just as a compass showing north allows the choice to go south.

Is it possible for translations to get it right every time? I read once that in South America, when translating a passage on the sacrificial lamb using the principle of “dynamic equivalence”, a bright spark hit on the idea of substituting a sacrificial guinea pig as their nearest culturally relevant creature (the isolated group he was translating for having never having seen sheep!).

The serious point is that when a word is translated from one language to another, there are two opposite problems. One is that sometimes an original language can have more words for a thing than the translation language (e.g. four “loves” in Greek of Philia, Agape, Storge and Eros). On the other hand, there may be less words and a word used for more than one thing in an original language must be have an element of selection by the translator to opt for one possible meaning over another, e.g. the word “apostosia” can be used to describe either a spiritual departure (apostasy) or a physical departure (leaving) which is a whole other discussion.

Back to Isaiah, the question is whether, out of the range of synonyms available for ra’ (translated as “evil” in the KJV and others) the clearest word was chosen. It occurs to me that to use the word “evil” would be in contradiction to 1 John 1:5.

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

On the other hand, consider the Great Tribulation where the fact cannot be avoided that God indeed creates adversity for the Egyptians during the Exodus and one day for those who follow after the Antichrist, this the latter choice of word is both valid and more in keeping with God’s revealed character in scripture.
 






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Lisa

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My question is not who is evil, but who created good and evil? Are there two gods: one good, the other evil? As @AspiringSoul rightly said above, this idea of two opposed and opposing gods is Manichean dualism, an idea the Church, as a corporate body, rejected long ago.
Hi Serve, I wanted to take some time to pray about and think about the answer to your question.

When I read the question I thought, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, evil entered the world. But I knew that answer would not satisfy you, it is the correct answer however.

God is good. The Bible clearly tells us that throughout the OT. Even Jesus told the pharisees that God is good, why do you call me good when God is good? God is the only good we have and when we reject Him and go our own way then that’s evil and we become evil, which is why our “good” deeds without God are just filthy rags. There is no good without God.

One must be a branch on the vine to do real good because it’s only from God that real good happens. He didn’t create evil but He allowed people to reject Him and choose life without Him which results in people turning evil...absence of good. Satan rejected God and is called evil...he has no God to show him good. He wants to be like God on his own which is also what man who rejects God wants. Like Cain who didn’t want to give God the good sacrifice but gave God instead the sacrifice he thought was good and what he thought God should accept. He was also mad at God when God didn’t accept his sacrifice..mad enough to kill the one who made the correct sacrifice...which God also tells us that sin leads to death.

Jesus as being the only sacrifice God will take to get back to Him is also the continuation of the Cain/Abel story. Abel gave God the sacrifice He wanted and Cain did not. People can choose to accept the sacrifice God gave us or reject it. Most people are going to and have rejected Jesus because of pride...thinking like Cain, that they can make their own way to God. The only ones though that can genuinely come to God are the ones that accept His sacrifice, Jesus. And there is also the correct way to accept that sacrifice. You can’t say Jesus wasn’t God and call it good. That’s not good because God tells us that Jesus is God. People again reject God and what He says. Without God there is no good, there is no good sacrifice and there is no coming back to God except the one way God gave us, everything else is evil. That is why God is not tempted by evil nor does He do evil...He is good!

And we are so blessed that God is good! Satan rules this evil world today...if God were evil then gnostic bishop would be right about what he says and in a way he is because instead of talking about the one true God, he talks about satan. Blinded by his arrogance and pride, he can’t see good. Which is why God also says that we must open our eyes, we are in the darkness. He is the light, He is the only good and without Him there is only evil.

Hope this helps you understand :)
 






Serveto

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When I read the question I thought, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, evil entered the world. But I knew that answer would not satisfy you.
Actually, the answer does satisfy me, but it doesn't explain how evil and rebellion first entered Heaven :).

Thank you not only for the remainder of your post, but also for the compassion, on your part, that I sensed while reading. No more questions, at this point, your honor.
 






Lisa

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Actually, the answer does satisfy me, but it doesn't explain how evil and rebellion first entered Heaven :).

Thank you not only for the remainder of your post, but also for the compassion, on your part, that I sensed while reading. No more questions, at this point, your honor.
Satan wanted to be like God...and be God. Basically he encouraged Adam and Eve into doing what he did.
Isaiah‬ ‭14:13-14‬ ‭
But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.​
‭‭
You’re welcome.
 






Karlysymon

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I'd be much interested in @Infinityloop 's thoughts on this question unless @AspiringSoul answers for you?
why would God subject us to that in the first place?
God created evil and made us capable of evil.
Telling people to not blame God ie 'God didnt create evil' is just a convenient mythos
1) By the very existence of evil...and God as the Creator of all things...God created evil, that is simple logic. if the bible states God did not create evil, then i question the mythos behind that statement, as in, it's intent and who it was intended to and what it's point actually was.
To what end though? While you gave a reason somewhere down in your posts (it spurs us on to be better people), no offense but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for God to “create” evil neither is it sufficient justification for its existence as necessary. I will concede that He does take responsibility for what He allows to happen (opening chapters of Job)

As an aside, with the acquaintance that we humans have with the problem of evil and the destruction it wroughts, and God knows this obviously. So let us imagine, if you were God why would you “create” evil? Of what use is it, other than destruction? Does God delight in/find satisfaction in destruction/chaos? (Inotherwords, I need a better answer from you than the one you furnished earlier) :)

This is just my personal conclusion to this age-old question. It is impossible for God to be the source of evil or to “create” evil. Evil is inherently self-destructive. Its culmination is death. An evil person not only destroys that which surrounds him but ends up destroying himself. If God had an evil nature, it stands to reason that there would come a time when He would cease-to-be, as it’s the logical conclusion to that nature. But as we all know, God is infinite and immortal, therefore cannot cease to be or self-destruct. And the end of God means the end of all life because it is His existence that sustains all things, animate and inanimate.

Nature bears or retains the imprint of its Maker. God’s good and perfect nature is evident throughout the natural world, though much marred by the effects of the Fall. If God’s evil nature was a real thing, this imperfection would be evident in the natural world aswell.

Furthermore, aside from religion, laws of the land and whatever else, why does Man aspire to be good? He loathes the results of his evil actions on himself and what he cherishes. Where does he get this sense from, this aspiration to be good? Evil is senseless and irrational. Evil=destroy. Yeah, we rob banks, kill people, poison rivers etc because it benefits us somehow but at the heart of it, there is no real reason why we do these things. This augments my point that it is impossible for God to be the source of evil. There is no incentive for Him to be “defective”. (Job 34:10-15) Therefore, if evil cannot be “created”, its existence is thus a by-product of something.

From a Christian pov, God as the source of evil changes a lot of things;

  • It means that evil will NEVER cease, neither in this age nor the age to come, because the source of evil cannot cease to be/is immortal. Inotherwords, we can all sit tight and wait for Earth 2.0. I don’t think iam interested in living in another age that is a continuation of the current one. Death would be a much welcome release for me. We can jettison those nice biblical promises about the end of sin, death and suffering.
  • It negates the Cross and everything it stands for: the testament that it is to the goodness of God and it also renders useless man’s redemption.
  • It becomes a water-tight argument for Universal Reconciliation (@Todd). God has no justifiable grounds for condemning people to an eternal sleep or banishing them from His presence because they are evil. They are evil because they are simply taking after their father’s/creator’s nature.
  • It makes God out to be hypocritical. He expects us to overcome our evil natures while He, somehow retains His and cannot “overcome” it.
Actually, the answer does satisfy me, but it doesn't explain how evil and rebellion first entered Heaven :).
"Evil is simultaneously rational and irrational. Because evil is irrational, in its rebellion against the order that reason imposes, it seeks to be irrational and chaotic to fight reason. But implicit in this drive to be irrational is a kind of logic – a logoi of evil, which is therefore still rational. Van Til called this becoming epistemically self-conscious – evil seeks to become consistent with itself, in its inconsistency. Evil cannot be consistent with its attack on reason – to do so is a manifestation of still being rational."~ Jay Dyer

It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is “the transgression of the law;” it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.
 






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The word 'evil' is not archaic, and Red already linked to the Hebrew word, which includes 'evil' among the literal, that's right, literal options. Choose whichever translation best suits your purposes, but Prophet Isaiah clearly said that God makes peace and creates evil, at least as it is sometimes translated into English, and that by the best linguists King James could afford to employ for his monumental project -his gift to English-speaking Protestants.

This is not to say, however, that God is subject to anything He creates. To me, that is a separate, side topic.
God is shown as the creator of all concepts, which he created for his pleasure.

That is why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's overall plan.

Christians never this conundrum as they do not understand their own ideology which is based savior, who must have sins to die.

Adam, like Satan, must be seen as members of god's loyal opposition.

Not Original sin but Original Virtue; the way the Jews wrote the myth, and the way it was meant to be read.

Regards
DL
 






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