BLM F&*#kery

rainerann

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My biggest gripe is the "illegal" part.
I'm ok with helping humanity. I don't think people should starve and die because some Jillionaire needs another private jet.... :rolleyes:

ETA:
Any and ALL illegality applies to this....not specifying only immigrants.
Rulemakers can also afford to be rulebreakers?!
Not right. :mad:
i understand what you are saying, but our definition of illegal needs to change. immigration never became illegal until a class system was established in the us that people wanted to be able to control.

i do think immigration policy had more to do with class even though people would often refer to racial reasons. Some mix of both maybe.

with the advent and history of an established middle class included in the history of the us, it would seem like we would have some ability to reconsider our immigration policy.

What I’m saying is entirely idealistic. I realize it is almost like saying I could play house with the world and rearrange things that have become so embedded, changing them would almost be like trying to find a way to move South America to fit next to Africa so they could be neighbors.

but there’s been some crazy things happening all over the place lately and I’m giving up on reality and retreating to a fantasy world where immigration policy can be improved and everyone can just shut up about all of it already.
 

threepwood

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Hi @rainerann ,

i really can emphasize with what you said. But societies are much more fragile things, as we see at the moment. Even if i really believed, our politicians had some similar dream, they really cant wait for it to happen just naturally.

Laws (even the "too old" ones) are still laws. If you put them aside, to fulfill your good intentions, you could also make the case for colonization. Just putch these evil dictators, and establish a real nice democracy. I wonder why this turned out so badly.

because the whole incident was videotaped and the footage widely disseminated.
I just got the news that these tapes got to daylight. What do you think of it?

Best regards,
Threepwood
 

justjess

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Hi @rainerann ,

i really can emphasize with what you said. But societies are much more fragile things, as we see at the moment. Even if i really believed, our politicians had some similar dream, they really cant wait for it to happen just naturally.

Laws (even the "too old" ones) are still laws. If you put them aside, to fulfill your good intentions, you could also make the case for colonization. Just putch these evil dictators, and establish a real nice democracy. I wonder why this turned out so badly.


I just got the news that these tapes got to daylight. What do you think of it?

Best regards,
Threepwood
To me that seems like a PTSD fueled reaction. Sorry, he says on the first page he’s been shot like this before. And a majority of that transcript seems to be after the knee was on his neck. The man was handcuffed and unarmed. If he was “acting erratic” they should have called for medical as soon as they thought so.

Absolutely none of that is even relevant to an officer putting his knee in a handcuffed mans neck for over eight minutes. Fentanyl kills immediately, not a half hour plus after ingestion.
 
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irrationalNinja

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our definition of illegal needs to change.
@rainerann you cannot just keep trying to change definitions you don’t like. While it may be inconvenient to be constrained to reality, redefining words according to Marxist principles, or using made-up words that align with your taradiddle, will produce an ignorant, misinformed public.
I’m giving up on reality and retreating to a fantasy world where immigration policy can be improved and everyone can just shut up about all of it already.
Imho, you will have more success remaining constrained to reality by observing the immigration crisis in Europe and taking notes about how it got that way. Unconstrained fantasies make you sound painfully naive, at best, and like a Marxist shill, at worst.
 

threepwood

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To me that seems like a PTSD fueled reaction. Sorry, he says on the first page he’s been shot like this before. And a majority of that transcript seems to be after the knee was on his neck. The man was handcuffed and unarmed. If he was “acting erratic” they should have called for medical as soon as they thought so.

Absolutely none of that is even relevant to an officer putting his knee in a handcuffed mans neck for over eight minutes. Fentanyl kills immediately, not a half hour plus after ingestion.
I dont know.. What I'm getting from this transcript is, that Chauvin underestimated Floyds condition. Especially when you consider, that Floyd hat trouble breathing before he was put on the ground.
But despite that, there is no indication of racism or any unusual kind of brutality.

And I dont know anything about Fentanyl, but if it kills immediately, how could it be used as a drug?
 

justjess

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I dont know.. What I'm getting from this transcript is, that Chauvin underestimated Floyds condition. Especially when you consider, that Floyd hat trouble breathing before he was put on the ground.
But despite that, there is no indication of racism or any unusual kind of brutality.

And I dont know anything about Fentanyl, but if it kills immediately, how could it be used as a drug?
If it is going to kill you it is going to do it immediately or within minutes of ingesting. It isn’t going to wait hours or even a half hour to do so. It could have been a contributing factor - decreased respiration - but it could not have been the sole cause that far removed from administration.

idk how you got anything from that transcript. How would you deduce racism or brutality from words segregated from context? Brutality is putting your knee in someone’s neck for over eight minutes while they are handcuffed and yelling they can’t breathe. Also that “your acting funny” line you see is like universal cop interrogation or CYA speak. I’ve heard it used against myself more then a couple times when I was literally doing nothing.
 
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My culture has been defined by open borders outside of the fact that there are several states with a lot of Mexican in them already. Ever hear of los Angelas. What language do you suppose that is?

I am American. I grew up going to class with first generation immigrants from many different countries my whole life. It has never seemed like that much of a disaster to me, but a lot of people do like to talk bad on American culture in general.

to me, American culture is something that is somewhat undefined. It is like being able to write a new story as a nation. This is what I think happens where there is freedom.

I know it might be hard to understand, but when you live together with people, you become a culture together and write a shared history regardless of where you come from? It is only difficult when people are unable to let go of things that don’t matter and won’t be lost if you stop fighting about them.

im thinking my culture is what you claim you reject for some reason. What do you suggest I do with it since it already is this way? It kind of feels like the ship has already sailed on the whole prevention of blended cultures. I’m almost 40 at this point.
Los Angeles in Spanish is Los Angeles as far as I'm aware, since it was a Spanish name to begin with.

That said, your culture can't be defined by open borders, because open borders inherently undermine any cultural homogeneity. Open borders create a multicultural society, not a monoculture; it is inherently contradictory: multiculture is not a culture. You cannot maintain whatever monoculture you're part of or have achieved with open borders. You can only do so if your community decides who gets to enter and who doesn't.

But you've basically admitted that you've been deracinated from your cultural roots by saying that ship has sailed. I wouldn't suggest you do anything if you feel comfortable in your current surroundings. But culture is not the expression of an individual; it's the expression of a group of people tied together through history, language and religion. Just because you've made peace with it, doesn't mean the rest of your now dying cultural group feels the same way.
 

rainerann

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Los Angeles in Spanish is Los Angeles as far as I'm aware, since it was a Spanish name to begin with.

That said, your culture can't be defined by open borders, because open borders inherently undermine any cultural homogeneity. Open borders create a multicultural society, not a monoculture; it is inherently contradictory: multiculture is not a culture. You cannot maintain whatever monoculture you're part of or have achieved with open borders. You can only do so if your community decides who gets to enter and who doesn't.

But you've basically admitted that you've been deracinated from your cultural roots by saying that ship has sailed. I wouldn't suggest you do anything if you feel comfortable in your current surroundings. But culture is not the expression of an individual; it's the expression of a group of people tied together through history, language and religion. Just because you've made peace with it, doesn't mean the rest of your now dying cultural group feels the same way.
los Angelas is Spanish for the angels. I live in a multicultural society. It isn’t the first multicultural society that has existed in history. Culture is created by living in peace with the people who live in the same place as you.

some things have to be shared, but if democracy is a preferable way of living with other people, then what you share is decided by a vote and not by trying to wrangle the important things from history and forcing the present generation to practice them.

but these are things I don’t think you understand And so when you are comparing an immigration situation in the United states with your own. Try to remember that immigration is how my country was built Even if the same can’t be said of your own country.
 

rainerann

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@rainerann you cannot just keep trying to change definitions you don’t like. While it may be inconvenient to be constrained to reality, redefining words according to Marxist principles, or using made-up words that align with your taradiddle, will produce an ignorant, misinformed public.

Imho, you will have more success remaining constrained to reality by observing the immigration crisis in Europe and taking notes about how it got that way. Unconstrained fantasies make you sound painfully naive, at best, and like a Marxist shill, at worst.
Changing definitions is exactly what America has done many times. Where did the constitution come from to begin with? The fact that you think this should stop, well I don’t know what to say about that. I feel sorry for you.

I think it makes me more of a classical liberal than a Marxist or naive really. I have a vision. You don’t. I get it. We won’t agree.
 
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los Angelas is Spanish for the angels. I live in a multicultural society. It isn’t the first multicultural society that has existed in history. Culture is created by living in peace with the people who live in the same place as you.

some things have to be shared, but if democracy is a preferable way of living with other people, then what you share is decided by a vote and not by trying to wrangle the important things from history and forcing the present generation to practice them.

but these are things I don’t think you understand And so when you are comparing an immigration situation in the United states with your own. Try to remember that immigration is how my country was built Even if the same can’t be said of your own country.
Hypothetically, what happens if Los Angeles in 10 years from now is overrun with people from North Africa and the Middle East? What will your culture look like in 20 years? Do you honestly believe hispanic Catholics and Arab Muslims (not to mention the black and European minorities left there) will live side by side in peace? Do you honestly believe you will ever have a chance at a harmonious culture? Or would they vie for cultural dominance in the society they and their children will continue to live in, whether through democratic or undemocratic means?
 

irrationalNinja

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Changing definitions is exactly what America has done many times. Where did the constitution come from to begin with?
With an example, here, your rhetoric might not fall so flat. Are you conflating the radical left’s need to change definitions of words in order to push the narrative (Newspeak), with the process of adding Amendments to the US Constitution?

I think it makes me more of a classical liberal than a Marxist or naive really.
If you read up on Marxism, you will see what I mean.

I’m getting more “classic myopic re-visionary”, as opposed to “classical liberal visionary.”
 

rainerann

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Hypothetically, what happens if Los Angeles in 10 years from now is overrun with people from North Africa and the Middle East? What will your culture look like in 20 years? Do you honestly believe hispanic Catholics and Arab Muslims (not to mention the black and European minorities left there) will live side by side in peace? Do you honestly believe you will ever have a chance at a harmonious culture? Or would they vie for cultural dominance in the society they and their children will continue to live in, whether through democratic or undemocratic means?
mhmm, so you clearly are not all that familiar with los angelas. My guess would be that this situation already exists to an extent. I don’t know the exact percentages, but this situation you are suggesting already exists.

what ends up happening is that markets are basically created that represent different countries. So you end up with middle eastern grocery stores and sometimes entire shopping districts that end up being called Chinatown. This might be specific way of responding considering our economic system in the us. It might be different in other places.

For example, there are at least 20 different chinatowns in the us. It would also seem that your example represents the idea that certain cultures are more resistant to creating a shared culture. This may be true, but it is the result of people hanging onto traditions from the past. It isn’t because it isn’t possible.

but, your example already exists and has existed my whole life. Los angelas would worth looking into but most major cities are as well. Chicago would be another example. There are a lot of existing examples in the us.
 

rainerann

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With an example, here, your rhetoric might not fall so flat. Are you conflating the radical left’s need to change definitions of words in order to push the narrative (Newspeak), with the process of adding Amendments to the US Constitution?


If you read up on Marxism, you will see what I mean.

I’m getting more “classic myopic re-visionary”, as opposed to “classical liberal visionary.”
im doing nothing of the sort. You are making gross partisan accusations. Are you even in the us?
 
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mhmm, so you clearly are not all that familiar with los angelas. My guess would be that this situation already exists to an extent. I don’t know the exact percentages, but this situation you are suggesting already exists.

what ends up happening is that markets are basically created that represent different countries. So you end up with middle eastern grocery stores and sometimes entire shopping districts that end up being called Chinatown. This might be specific way of responding considering our economic system in the us. It might be different in other places.

For example, there are at least 20 different chinatowns in the us. It would also seem that your example represents the idea that certain cultures are more resistant to creating a shared culture. This may be true, but it is the result of people hanging onto traditions from the past. It isn’t because it isn’t possible.

but, your example already exists and has existed my whole life. Los angelas would worth looking into but most major cities are as well. Chicago would be another example. There are a lot of existing examples in the us.
So what I get out of your reply is that your solution is that people need to let go of their past culture and embrace the new one?
 

justjess

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im doing nothing of the sort. You are making gross partisan accusations. Are you even in the us?
Don’t worry @rainerann it’s become increasingly obvious if you don’t agree with every single currently fadish opinion around here you will be met with scorn no matter what you say. Fruitless battle.

America has been a melting pot since day one, for better or for worse. That’s just what it is. It used to be celebrated, now it’s scorned - my guess is because it’s starting to effect the fly over states whereas it used to mainly be the coasts. You can still have your own culture living besides other cultures. We’ve managed to do it our whole lives. The coexistence of other cultures doesn’t make that impossible.
 

justjess

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@justjess
Totally ok with peaceful coexistence.
Everyone can have their personal beliefs as much as they like. Just don't shove it in everybody's face and/or expect them to agree with it/alter society to accommodate it.
A world where everyone could coexist in harmony accepting each others differences without having to war about it, sounds sublime.
But in reality (even on an incredibly micro scale such as this forum) people are always in conflict. Nobody wants to be on the bottom.
I only think it is right for people to integrate/assimilate/educate (themselves) into their adoptive society. Whether it's an Australian moving to China, or a Brazilian moving to the UK. Why is it ok to expect the citizens to bend to your culture/customs? If you don't want to assimilate maybe just travel and visit varying nations for the novelty of experience.
(I'm not really directing at you, more theoretical).
What exactly is an “American custom” if we’re being serious here. Because I’ve been here my whole life and quite frankly idk what that means. Even moving from one geographic region to another causes a complete cultural disruption. A New Yorker in Pennsylvania is going to be a cultural shock, a Californian in Georgia etc etc. should we not even move within our own country? I guess I just don’t understand this argument. I’m from a very diverse place and it was never a major issue. I’m Italian and I raise my kids in my own culture and no ones ever had an issue with that either. We can appreciate people’s differences too.

now, people should come here legally and pay taxes. I agree with that. I do not agree that there is any one specific brand of American culture that needs preserving here. It’s never been that way.
 

rainerann

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So what I get out of your reply is that your solution is that people need to let go of their past culture and embrace the new one?
i don’t know how you got that out of what I said.

although, more specifically, no people do not just let go of their cultures and embrace a new one because culture is not static the way you are suggesting.

culture is fluid already and created when you choose to live in peace with other people. That is all that is required really. People don’t embrace a new culture as a sort of package. They create culture by sharing their lives with other people.

we create culture with others wherever there is an opportunity to interact. Even on the forum, there is some development of a culture that makes this place unique in some respect from another forum.

most aspects of culture are retainable no matter where a person lives if they are allowed to live in freedom and peace. Music and food are cornerstones of any culture and there is no reason to assume that a person needs to leave behind their culture when most of what is considered culture doesn’t cause harm.

for the most, what we should be doing going forward is to find ways to have peace with other. Peace is usually created by sharing something with someone of a different culture. So really the new culture is just a combination of many different cultures, not a new culture that is proposed and accepted leaving everything behind.

without some kind of sharing, peace with other nations is really just artificial. If people can’t know something about a different culture by sharing some part of it, they are prone to prejudices that will inevitably create conflicts. I’m all about peace is the point of what I’m saying and I have experience being in a melting pot where this works fairly well.

most of what people label culture are things that were new at one point too. There is no reason that we are not allowed to make something that is new
 

justjess

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@justjess
I suppose what I mean is that it has more to do with patriotism over culturalism...
Simply put...
Hating the country you moved to, and then encouraging that in others, seems crazy to me. o_O
I see all nations as having their own handicaps, but if you hate the nation you are in...gtfo! Lol!
Lots of America haters these days....
Some of the most proud Americans I have ever met are recent immigrants. The day they pass their citizenship test is typically a huge celebration and they are incredibly proud. I’m also not sure what you mean by “hate America” and where that is directed. I haven’t seen it in immigrant populations, the opposite is more common. There are a lot of citizens who criticize America but it’s a far leap to get from criticism to hate. There are foreigners who don’t live here who “hate” America but in those cases you kinda need to ask yourself why and if it may be justified.
 

justjess

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@justjess
It's heartwarming to read those words (naturalized citizens).I'm all for that! 1000%! Those same folk are also likely hardworking, religious and family oriented individuals.
Yes, other nations are entitled to their pov, of course. Understandable.
I will say though that most unpatriotic bunch I've observed are those with special interests.
I am not concerned about "winning" this thread, lol, for me, its all just sharing thoughts/civil discourse.
I value all ideas even if I don't personally agree.

ETA: If you don't mind me asking how do you feel as an American?
I love my country. I wish it was better, held itself to higher standards. Same as seeing someone you love not live up to their potential. It’s disappointing and aggravating.
 
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i don’t know how you got that out of what I said.
Because you said this:
... certain cultures are more resistant to creating a shared culture. This may be true, but it is the result of people hanging onto traditions from the past. It isn’t because it isn’t possible.
From this I would infer that the solution is that people should not hang on to traditions of the past.

although, more specifically, no people do not just let go of their cultures and embrace a new one because culture is not static the way you are suggesting.

we create culture with others wherever there is an opportunity to interact. Even on the forum, there is some development of a culture that makes this place unique in some respect from another forum.

most aspects of culture are retainable no matter where a person lives if they are allowed to live in freedom and peace. Music and food are cornerstones of any culture and there is no reason to assume that a person needs to leave behind their culture when most of what is considered culture doesn’t cause harm.

for the most, what we should be doing going forward is to find ways to have peace with other. Peace is usually created by sharing something with someone of a different culture. So really the new culture is just a combination of many different cultures, not a new culture that is proposed and accepted leaving everything behind.

without some kind of sharing, peace with other nations is really just artificial. If people can’t know something about a different culture by sharing some part of it, they are prone to prejudices that will inevitably create conflicts. I’m all about peace is the point of what I’m saying and I have experience being in a melting pot where this works fairly well.

most of what people label culture are things that were new at one point too. There is no reason that we are not allowed to make something that is new
Nowhere did I suggest culture was static. It's not that changing cultures is the problem, it's that the culture is not changing organically and democratically by a people united through language, history and religion. Open borders allow and enforce different, sometimes incompatible cultures to live together in harmony. This is idealism not rooted in reality. People are social beings which means their own identity is composed of common references that can be found in the larger group they belong to. A common culture is a glue that stabilizes a society. Mixing cultures is a means to divide.

You say music and food are cornerstones of culture? I disagree. Religion and the philosophy of life are the cornerstone of culture, of every culture throughout history. Culture is a collective expression of a people that is rooted in a common cultural identity and music is expression of that culture. Cuisine stems more from a people's geographical location, climate, biodiversity and agricultural customs.

And this isn't about an individual of culture A interacting with an individual of culture B exchanging information, goods, or stories. This is about how you let groups live together and maintain social order.
 
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