Bible the Book of books

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"But Muhammad had more than one wife so he must be a bad guy". While Abraham also, 2-3 wives we know about. Only God knows how many wives he really had. Another thing to note is that we actually know very little about Jesus and his life and the Bible only takes into account about 3 years of his ministry. One could conclude, that while looking at the NT, we don't have information on Jesus to know who and what he really was as a person.
According to the Old Testament, Prophet/King Solomon had 700 wives o_O

I personally have zero qualms with polygamy but I don't think it would ever truly work in most cases. Seeing though how in traditional religions (whether Abrahamic or Dharmic) marriage is attached to childbearing (therefore why premarital sex is always prohibited in such religions), it would make sense with various prophets like Solomon (if the Old Testament was correct in it's claims) that he had that many wives for the expansion of the Israelite nation.
Also unlike Muhammad, many of the Old Testament Prophets also had concubines :oops:


As for Jesus, I find it beyond being unlikely that he wasn't married. A single Jewish man in his 30s was just not common among Jews then (or now even). Mary Magdalene tends to be a common thread of speculation regarding his marital status.
However just like Prophet Muhammad (saw), I would say he would've been married before his prophethood.

And of course Atheists like to play into the idea of "the disciple Jesus loved" as being Jesus' boyfriend, lol, take that conservative Christians ROTFL!

From both the New Testament and the Qur'an, there's nothing strongly or directly hinting at Jesus being either married or unmarried.
Of course, in Paulianism, the "church" is his bridge symbolically.
 
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You gotta be jivin us boy..:p
Check it-

The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger-
Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
"A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
"In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
---------------------------
The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem-
Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod..."
------------------------------
The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah-
Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16) contains a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).
-------------------------------------------

The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey-
Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
"Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey"
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
"They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen"
-----------------------------------
The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend-
Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
"Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me"
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
"While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him"
--------------------------------------
The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
"I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver"
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
"Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins"
---------------------------------------
The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten-
Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
"I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting"
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
"Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
-------------------------------------------
The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies-
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed"
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
"Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified"
----------------------------------------------
The Messiah would be silent before His accusers-
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth"
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
"When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor"
------------------------------------------------
The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field-
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
"And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter"
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners"
---------------------------------------------------------
The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced-
Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
"Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet"
New Testament (Luke 23:33) says:
"When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left"
--------------------------------------------------------
The Messiah would be crucified with thieves-
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
"Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors"
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
"Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left"
Ok, let's say your theory was entirely correct. Then it's obvious that the New Testament was influenced by the text of the Old Testament. Given how much the Old Testament is directly quoted (often very poorly) in the New Testament, it doesn't leave much possibility for anything other than the evolving of myths.
What would you say to that?


I'm also not going through every single one. All of the Isaiah ones are about the nation of Israel themselves though, as very explicit from the text itself. Isaiah was written around the exile of the Jews, so it represented both the oppression against them and the retribution and promise of their status on the world stage. The Jews are the "firstborn son of Yahweh" afterall, according to Exodus 4:22.
Christianity is a subversion of the Old Testament.
 
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so now we are agreeing with derren brown conspiracies give me a break, i cant take you seriously after that, you guys are so decieved.
 
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so now we are agreeing with derren brown conspiracies give me a break, i cant take you seriously after that, you guys are so decieved.
Saying that someone is a "common thread of speculation" doesn't equate to "agreeing with dareen brown conspiracies".
And considering that I also said "From both the New Testament and the Qur'an, there's nothing strongly or directly hinting at Jesus being either married or unmarried."



For the record, I've never read any of his books or even seen any movies influenced by his books.
Various gnostic texts (aka, Non-paulian pre-Christian texts) do agree with his speculations though.
 
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Well not really, my father is my father, but we are both human beings, hence the father is God as is the son, there being is divine. But regardless my salvation doesnt require me to believe in the trinity, I simply have to faith that Jesus died for my sins.

Question

Why does the trinity somehow make this God, inherently "Wrong" or "Evil".

Problem is when I look at God and see the message of Jesus far transcend that of Islam, I find more credibility in that than, theology or doctrine. Its not a reason to build your faith on, dont even think it should be a factor but there we go.
@ both human beings
So you basically believe in 3 Gods, not ONE.

Besides, the Son is just a symbolic word with it's judaic/biblical context, used by the jewish philosopher Philo to describe the greek concept, Logos.

hence The Word/Logos of God, is God's expression. It is only 'God' in the mystical sense, never in the logical sense.
If you did something and we said 'that was you', the act itself wasn't strictly speaking you, but it was your expression.
logically you and the act are seperate things, but in the mystical sense relating to the Immanence of God, it is the same.

So if you read John 1:1
'in the beginning was the Word and the Word WAS WITH GOD!!!'
this here is the logical perspective related to God's Transcendence.

'and The Word IS GOD"
this here is the mystical perspective related to God's Immanence.

In islam, understanding the use of metaphorical/symbolic language aswell as mystical utterances related to the Immanence of God, is very important, as it allows us not to take certain things literally.

For example, it is logically absurd that God is inside a tree.
YET you are able to perceive of God's Immanent manifestation inside a tree.
Moses heard God in the burning bush...of course we dont go worshipping burning bushes, yet in some places people did take the mystical/personal/subjective experience literally.

The Jews were focused too heavily on logic and debating over the rules of religion. Yet they'd closed their heart to God eg they lost personal perception of God.
That's why when Jesus came he argued using parables and mystical language
'if you have seen me you have seen God'
the jews who took this literally, didnt understand Jesus

Seeing, they might see and not perceive; and hearing, they might hear and not understand; lest ever they should turn, and they should be forgiven.

The problem is that later christians took these mystical statements literally too, but they didnt have the logical foundation of judaism eg monothiesm, as we muslims have Tawheed (theirs is similar to ours btw) and now they're lost.
the entire abrahimic tradition is centered around monothiesm.

here's an example
Jesus was called 'son of David' by the rabbis. Jesus quoted David himself vis psalm 110 eg 'even David calls me LORD'
So you christians today use 'LORD' as if it means God.
in Psalm 110 it says
THE LORD says to my lord
THE LORD is Yahweh/ADONAI
lord is Adoni

eg Jesus is adoni, but NOT Adonai. Yet you christians have never grasped this basic truth, so much so that the translations capitalised 'LORD' with regards to Jesus.
This is not a problem inherent in the core scripture, it is a problem with christian interpretations/translations.

This here is an example of how Paul refers to Jesus in his introductions

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


notice Christ Jesus is seperate to God?
Sure, Paul calls him lord, but this is the same as saying 'master' eg adoni. it is perfectly okay. There are many 'lords/adonis' but only ONE God and Adonai.

The other issue is that when you cling on thinking of Jesus as God, in the literal sense, you use those mystical statements in the NT...
yet there are many that contradict it. Eg Jesus said himself that The Son doesnt know the Last hour, he can do 'nothing on his own' etc.

At least my understanding is consistent. I have a valid explanation for it that doesnt contradict anything in the bible..whereas you guys have nothing but contradictions which you willfully ignore as you deem fit, just to get by when you're discussing this with muslims.


Furthermore, the concept of Logos and it's incarnation, is entirely misunderstood. The logos concept being greek, was influenced largely from india and persia (remember the greeks conquered those lands and gained insight from them).
Look, one of the biggest influential figures behind the trinitarian doctrine, was St Augustine. He was influenced by a guy called Plotinus, who had travelled to persia where he picked up on a very similar belief to what the earlier trinity represented

here read this

do you know that the logos actually meant the universal consciousness? that we ALL are part of it?
it is the primordial ocean..and we are considered 'drops'.
However whilst in some belief systems they think of the universal consciousness itself as God...monothiestic religions understand that the logos/universal consciousness represents the Immanence of God as is more 'His expression' eg His Word.
it is THIS that philo described metaphorically as 'the only begotten Son of God', he wasnt talking about baby Jesus.
 
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you're completely out of your depth here tbh.
i feel bad for you.
Lol, not really, I just dont want to go quoting arguments for the trinity, and well established theological doctrines, that more educated apologists have expounded upon from both camps than you or I, to debate muslims who have probably already heard them, and have no interest in them, because there heart is pretty closed on the matter.

The fact is the gnostic gospels, and the theory Jesus had a wife, was made very popular by Derren Brown, as far as im aware it was pretty much a non starter that these gospels were clearly forgeries, by esoteric sects, doing the exact thing that you claim the New Testament, did anyway which was incorporate, concepts from popular philosophers and roman theology at the time.

Makes 0 sense, so we will vehemently deny the entrance of these things, but lets add a dash of paganism for good measure. You guys cant even see how you twist and will use any argument even drawing on the gnostic gospels, to support some sort of doubt of the New Testament, because you have to believe that that is the case, because otherwise your religion falls apart really.

Im not going to respond to this any further, we can all copy paste studies on the original translations, I read tons of Daciples post page upon page debating muslims, and others, and pretty much blasted them out of the water, he did it for the benefit of the reader and it certainly strengthened my faith, I havent really got the time nor the inclination to do that, but the info is definitely out there, Ive already heard all the arguments.
 
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Lol, not really, I just dont want to go quoting arguments for the trinity, and well established theological doctrines, that more educated apologists have expounded upon from both camps than you or I, to debate muslims who have probably already heard them, and have no interest in them, because there heart is pretty closed on the matter.

The fact is the gnostic gospels, and the theory Jesus had a wife, was made very popular by Derren Brown, as far as im aware it was pretty much a non starter that these gospels were clearly forgeries, by esoteric sects, doing the exact thing that you claim the New Testament, did anyway which was incorporate, concepts from popular philosophers and roman theology at the time.

Makes 0 sense, so we will vehemently deny the entrance of these things, but lets add a dash of paganism for good measure. You guys cant even see how you twist and will use any argument even drawing on the gnostic gospels, to support some sort of doubt of the New Testament, because you have to believe that that is the case, because otherwise your religion falls apart really.

Im not going to respond to this any further, we can all copy paste studies on the original translations, I read tons of Daciples post page upon page debating muslims, and others, and pretty much blasted them out of the water, he did it for the benefit of the reader and it certainly strengthened my faith, I havent really got the time nor the inclination to do that, but the info is definitely out there, Ive already heard all the arguments.
I'm sorry, it may be poor form, rude etc..but the trinitarian doctrine holds no weight whatsoever. It's always been absurd to me...that is the nicene creed, the catholic interpretations of the concepts.

how do you justify believing the holy spirit and the son are co equals?
John 12/16, the holy spirit is not greater than the Son..and the Son can do nothing on his own. The Father, is God.

the epistles are also quite clear, they seperate the 'lord Jesus' and 'God the Father'.
whilst there are some questionable verses, they're mystical in nature and shouldnt be taken literally..otherwise they contradict obv statements ive highlighted.
if you're happy with contradicting your own scripture, so be it.
my perspective inc on the trinity, is consistent with the NT.
i can explain the trinity very easily...in fact i believe in it
just not like the catholic church(which is the version you believe in).

As for gnosticism. I dont claim gnostics are christian. However the gnostics and christians ultimately absorbed greco-persian ideas which originate from india...
the gnostics have perspectives that are important, they offer an alternative viewpoint which is important to me..
but i dont use gnostic arguments to argue against christianity.


i dont follow other peoples debates, i only know my own and usually cant even tell apart diff christians
lisa, dasciples, redskymorning, thundarian, it is all the same..
what is there to debate?

i recall the christians on here posting videos/links saying 'petra was the real mecca' 'the original qibla was petra'
then later something like this happens

The building was open-air, rectangular-shaped and had a "Mihrab" - or a prayer niche - facing south toward Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

"These features are evidence for the purpose for which this building was used, many hundred years ago," said Mr Seligman


you know how low you have to go to dig out such weak arguments like the petra argument, in the first place? when i discuss religion with christians, im talking direct about your theology in contrast to your scripture.

the arguments christians use against islam, like 'moon God' 'petra' 'you worship the black stone' etc are pure shit.

i can criticise muslims if/when they get it wrong, i dont base my faith on them, likewise you shouldnt base your faith on someone like daciple and his shitposts on this forum.
 

TokiEl

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Do i read the vedas and listen to gurus about God ? Yes i used to do that. Do i read the quran and listen to sufis about God ? Yes i did that. Do i read the old testament and listen to rabbis about God ? Yes sure did. Do i read the new testament and listen to preachers about God ? Yes i do.

Did i find God ? No God found me.

What's His name ? Jesus Christ.
 

TokiEl

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Who do you pray to ?

Whose name do you shout when in need of help ?


You can be the most illiterate person in the world but if you know the name of God... it's like having a hotline to the Most high of the universe. Do you have any idea how quick God is ?

Try it.
 

TokiEl

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I did not know... i was living in the matrix.

I though our governments got our best interest at heart... L0L what a blue eyed twat i was.

Nobody offered me a red pill... but a meme...



Slowly but surely and not in freefall like the towers... the wall of prejudice and propaganda disintegrated like dust and i was free like a spirit in flight. I had become the one... neo in real life.L0L


I'm free !
 
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Do i read the vedas and listen to gurus about God ? Yes i used to do that. Do i read the quran and listen to sufis about God ? Yes i did that. Do i read the old testament and listen to rabbis about God ? Yes sure did. Do i read the new testament and listen to preachers about God ? Yes i do.

Did i find God ? No God found me.

What's His name ? Jesus Christ.
you don't know a thing about sufi islam or hinduism, quit fronting. we sane people see through faux christian lunacy.
your God couldn't find the 1m jews who were massacred by romans, which your God also took credit for, saying it was punishment for disbelieving in him.God foundeded yew tho.

"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing "
"Jesus therefore said, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me,'" (John 8:28).

are you sure it wasnt a demon that found you? i mean we're living in a fked up age and you're banging on about God finding you...i just find that hard to believe.
 

illuminatimess

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I did not know... i was living in the matrix.

I though our governments got our best interest at heart... L0L what a blue eyed twat i was.

Nobody offered me a red pill... but a meme...



Slowly but surely and not in freefall like the towers... the wall of prejudice and propaganda disintegrated like dust and i was free like a spirit in flight. I had become the one... neo in real life.L0L


I'm free !

and how did the third tower (Tower Seven, I think) collapse 7 hours after the twin towers?
 
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