Beautiful, prosperous Israel!

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#41
Not really. Jesus never intended to found a new religion. He was a Torah following descendant of David. He sought to bring reform and new understanding/revelation to the Hebrew faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Jesus made a very important point to the religious of His day which is as valid today.

John 5 39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

Are you busy reading your bibles thinking by that you have eternal life ?


Have the bible become an idol to you ?
 





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#42
Not really. Jesus never intended to found a new religion.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 





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#43
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
And everything that Jesus said in the great commission fit within the parameters of his revelation of reforming the Torah observing religion of the Hebrews. Everything that Jesus commanded them to do was already in the Torah. He came to fulfill the religion of the Torah, not start a new religion.
 





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#44
And everything that Jesus said in the great commission fit within the parameters of his revelation of reforming the Torah observing religion of the Hebrews. Everything that Jesus commanded them to do was already in the Torah. He came to fulfill the religion of the Torah, not start a new religion.
Is it what it's said in that quote ? Jesus claiming power, baptism of spirit, and teaching things HE said (Mt 5 comes to mind )...Not torah.

Torah was fulfilled for what purpose ?

Do we need to observe or keep torah to follow Jesus? If not so how it's religion of ours ?
 





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#46
Is it what it's said in that quote ? Jesus claiming power, baptism of spirit, and teaching things HE said (Mt 5 comes to mind )...Not torah.

Torah was fulfilled for what purpose ?

Do we need to observe or keep torah to follow Jesus? If not so how it's religion of ours ?
Jesus claiming power was prophesied in the OT, baptism of the Spirit was prophesied in the OT and everything Jesus taught can be found in the Torah. You can't say Jesus didn't teach the Torah. Torah was fulfilled so we could be free form the power of sin and we could receive the grace to walk in the covenant of God, i.e the Torah, i.e. the way, the truth and the life. Jesus was the living embodiment of the Torah. When he said "I am the way the truth and the life" (All Old Testament Hebrew descriptions of the Torah) he was saying I am the fulfillment and the perfect example of someone walking in the Covenant of God. So if we want to be "Christ like" than we ought to be following the example Jesus set before us. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself (Jesus' summation of the Torah)

So, yes we should be observing and keeping the Torah to follow Jesus! Of course you can quote all kinds of verses from Paul to justify why we shouldn't or don't need to keep the Torah. And that is the point...Paul founded the religion of Christianiy that did away with the Torah, not Jesus.
 





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#47
So now whole OT becomes Torah ? Torah defines sin , if you keep Torah you do not need Jesus you are perfect...Good luck with that...

I see you bring with you your dead horse :) Sorry not interested in beating it , but offer is appreciated :)
 





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#48
So now whole OT becomes Torah ? Torah defines sin , if you keep Torah you do not need Jesus you are perfect...Good luck with that...

I see you bring with you your dead horse :) Sorry not interested in beating it , but offer is appreciated :)
Hey I'm just pointing out what Jesus and the twelve disciples that walked with him in the flesh actually taught. If you don't like it and want to follow what Paul taught that's great. But then you really shouldn't go around claiming Jesus founded your religion when it was really Paul that founded it. The religion that Jesus and his twelve disciples taught and observed does not really exist in any mainstream instituion of religion today. There are people who understand that and are trusting God to guide them to live according to it, and many of those people can be found within mainstream Christianity.
 





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#50
Hey I'm just pointing out what Jesus and the twelve disciples that walked with him in the flesh actually taught. If you don't like it and want to follow what Paul taught that's great. But then you really shouldn't go around claiming Jesus founded your religion when it was really Paul that founded it. The religion that Jesus and his twelve disciples taught and observed does not really exist in any mainstream instituion of religion today. There are people who understand that and are trusting God to guide them to live according to it, and many of those people can be found within mainstream Christianity.
Acts definition of christianity suits me just fine i don't care about mainstream. When i write christianity i never have in mind mainstream. Jesus created christianity with his first disciple. And Paul is follower of Christ which is obvious... and great example of holy spirit at work. IMO
But then you really shouldn't go around claiming Jesus founded your religion
Good old Todd at his best :)
 





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#52
Are you a board moderator for VC? Your voice of authority has me wondering... :)
No. Just some one who believes what the Bible says about the spiritual seed of Abraham.
If one is born of the Spirit they are an heir of the covenant. The physical city Jerusalem was called a "spiritual Sodom" in Revelation chapter 11. Rabbinical Judaism was called a synagogue of Satan in Revelation chapter 2.

That country in the Middle East is NOT the "Israel" of scripture and never will be. It was founded by an atheist and communist (David ben Gurion) and is a hotbed of human trafficking, drug smuggling, organ smuggling, anti-Christian fanaticism, and financial corruption.
As a believer in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, I will never support that wicked kingdom.
And anyone professing faith in Christ would do well to abandon any doctrine blindly supporting an earthly nation like that.
 





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#55
No. Just some one who believes what the Bible says about the spiritual seed of Abraham.
If one is born of the Spirit they are an heir of the covenant.
That is true but how can one claim to be born of the Spirit if one doesn't understand that God has said and saved a stump of the natural seed of Abraham ? Jesus said that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled when the Jews reclaim the City of David. So for half a century already God has focused on the Jews which shows by the way as Christendom has gone rogue with some sort of prosperity gospel.


The physical city Jerusalem was called a "spiritual Sodom" in Revelation chapter 11. Rabbinical Judaism was called a synagogue of Satan in Revelation chapter 2.
Rev 11:8 is talking about the great city... which spiritually is called Egypt and Sodom where also our Lord was crucified. The great city in Revelation is the city which rules over the kings of the earth in Rev 17:18 and is pictured as a woman sitting on a seven headed beast.

It is not Jerusalem... but perhaps Rome or London or New York.


That country in the Middle East is NOT the "Israel" of scripture and never will be. It was founded by an atheist and communist (David ben Gurion) and is a hotbed of human trafficking, drug smuggling, organ smuggling, anti-Christian fanaticism, and financial corruption.
As a believer in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, I will never support that wicked kingdom.
And anyone professing faith in Christ would do well to abandon any doctrine blindly supporting an earthly nation like that.
Maybe it's not intentional but you come across as somewhat of a neo nazi.
 





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#56
@TokiEl
You've been led to believe that the establishment of modern Israel and the return of jewish people to the 'holy land' means that they have returned there by God's power to fulfill the messianic/zion prophecies like never before "for 2000 years" etc.
right?

Except, the Jews not only returned, but created a Jewish state in Jerusalem in the 7th Century AD. It didn't last as long as the current state of Israel, it lasted about 23 years until the byzantines took it back. Do you know what happened in that time period?

I posted this story on page 2, but I will repeat it here.

-The persian King, saw himself as Cyrus II.
-The persian zoroastrians have prophecies, which in the actual context were about their wars with the greeks (people of yellow disheveled hair) This we know was fulfilled when the 3rd beast conquered the 2nd beast. However here, the king of Persia at this time saw a war against the christian byzantines under the same idea. He had this strange idea, to give the jews permission to rebuild the jewish temple. everything seemed to fit perfectly.

The jews, under persian support, created a jewish state and fought against the christian byzantines. They slaughtered so many christians that it led to protests by arian christians in Persia. so the persians eventually realised the jews were trouble and turned their back on them. The Byzantines came in and killed jews and banned them from ever returning.

Caliph Umar/muslims came and took Jerusalem and allowed jews to return there. So ever since, under muslim rule, jews have lived there.



The prophecies of the remnant, are not like KNOWN jewish people colonising the land.
They talk of a land with no borders, no walls, no weapons...
israel is the complete opposite of that.
They talk of God's Spirit
"not by MIGHT nor POWER but by MY SPIRIT!!"
israel, relies heavily on possessing vast wealth, alliances and advanced technology and weapons.

Ezekiel 38 tells us a little about that context, eg when the remnant returns, to an empty deserted land (not a land full of people) without borders and weapons...then it will be invaded by Gog & Magog.

Now take that context to Revelation 20
this is fulfilled after the Beast and the anti-christ prophecies have been fulfilled.

so whatever israel is today, it is a long way from that. The Apollyon prophecy (could be fucking annunaki for all we know), the euphrates war (again linked to the annunaki), the fall of mystery babylon and then the Beast system and anti-christ haven't happened yet.

We do know from Revelation 11 that the city will be known as 'sodom and egypt'
What's the connection? sodom=homosexuality and egypt=worship of lucifer aka Ra aka the 'sun god' (known today as the solar logos lucifer)

Do we find any evidence of this in israel?

https://www.haaretz.com/jerusalem-holds-gay-pride-parade-1.5303252

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1ys89r




one other thing
before, the jews used persian support to fight christians and then muslim (because in fact Umar was inspired by jewish people, you can read up on Umar's connection to jews, he was favourable to them and consulted them on topics related to history, politics etc).

this video, was posted to attack umar as a pseudo jew, although sunnis dont hold that view (different topic, but im sharing the video so you can understand how Umar is viewed at least to some degree, although i dont view that as a negative because just like how I read the bible, Umar always sought knowledge of history/prophets and politics from jewish people).

this time the jews are using christians to fight persia and arabs

why are they doing things in reverse? i will tell you why

in the Torah there are God's warnings of punishment if they are disobedient. In those prophecies, it says whatever the israelites/jews plant, others will eat ie the idea is that whatever they wish for, they will not see but it will be given to others.
in the 7th century the jews were awaiting the davidic messiah, the messiah ben david, having, in their minds, already received the messiah ben joseph (who was called Nehemiah Ben Hushiel and was the leader of the jews in jerusalem). The jews had taken back the holy land from the romans. They were going to build the temple. the only thing required was the arrival of the messiah.The jews were inspired by Isaiah 42 and believed the messiah ben david was going to come from arabia. So when news of a certain circumcised prophet from Mecca coming to Madina, the city with the largest jewish population at that time) the jews celebrated his arrival. This is a well known story. As soon as they discovered he was an arab (and plus he did believe in Jesus as the messiah) that was a dagger in their hearts and it was the fulfillment of God's promise.
What they DESIRED was not theirs
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+26:14-18&version=NIV

They are doing things in reverse to undo the past, to receive the jewish messiah.
That will of course happen, via Zecheriah 11's prophecy of the worthless shepherd.
 





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#57
@Todd
in islam, our prophet told us that there are 3 stages of faith. The first is 'iman' belief...where a person posesses true belief but is sinful. Second is 'Islam' and means perfect submission to God. Islam is still a dualistic stage, ie there's still 'i' and 'God'. The third is 'Ihsan', 'to worship Allah as if you see Him or failing that know that He sees you'.

For me, the way I understanding is according to my understanding of metaphysics from different systems. Eg iman corresponds to Devaloka/the mental level, malakut in it we're in a state of fire/desire and struggling against all else/energy within ourselves and outside. So we struggle and we sin..but conquering that world takes us to the causal level, brahmaloka, jabarut. on that level, people basically become, superhuman, ie they conquer mental universe and are capable of miracles, posess powers, know things etc. However more importantly they exist in a state of peace, having submitted to the will of God. The third stage is the equivalent of Vishnu, the universal consciousness, hahut, the logos/word/son/image of God etc..it is a stage of unity..where 'i' no longer exists, only God.

Now when i look at the OT, law of Moses, it corresponds to the second stage which is dualistic..and Jesus represented UNITY.

In the Quran, there is a chapter called The Cave, named after a story of the Seven Sleepers, 3rd century christians. This chapter covers stories of Moses meeting a special person who attained knowledge from 'the presence of God' (ie Unity) who was wiser than Moses and posessed a higher level of spirituality. Moses failed the lesson Khidr was teaching him.

Anyway in that story, we're told Moses met him at the meeting point of two seas. Ie it is a symbolic description of the point of unity of consciousness. In that story, it says Moses had a fish in his posession but the fish swam away when they reached the meeting point. The fish is a christian symbol, the ichthys. I find it interesting how this symbol is shaped as if it represents unity from duality.
The fish is also an interesting concept in metaphysics. Moses learnt egyptian wisdom and in egyptian mythology, the name for fish is Nu, a 'diety' who represents the fish emerging out of the primordial ocean (ie the universal consciousness). in islam, there is a similar type of symbol, it is the PEN, whilst the ocean is compared to primordial INK..ie out of the pen, the divine Book was written (ie like code, at the level of jabarut/causation). So i was originally curious about these concepts ie was it in my head or is there something deeper to this?
int he Quran, is a surah called The Pen...
it begins with the words
Nun. By the pen and what they inscribe,

much of chapter 18 carries dualistic themes too, yin and yang type themes...
the story of Khidr AS vs Moses AS in Chapter 18, deal with the topics of non-action vs right-action. the reason i have written all this btw, is to point out that Jesus did indeed represent a higher path than the old testament/Torah.
However it is pointless unless a person exists in a UNITY of consciousness...hence Jesus said

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

the reason i outright insult most christians is because they do not even know what any of this means, they read the word 'gnosis of God' and bleat on about 'gnostixiizmz' and use their dumb americanised mode of thinking whilst making up rules as they go along.

unless they die to themselves ie forget their self and realise what in islam we understand is IHSAN, they have missed the point.
Jesus was different to Mohammad. To Jesus, if you didnt attain unity/ihsan then God help you..
to Mohammad, God is All-forgiving so if you are sinful, be sincere about it and God will show Mercy.
Although this here is not related to what im discussing overall in this post, it is another point christians forget when they jump on the idea of free salvation 'he died for us' sort of thing.

Jesus said "remain in me and I will remain in you" eg ths is gnosis and unity of consciousness. Love all beings, love God, forget yourself, do God's will etc...
very few are capable. So when Jesus answered the rich young man who didnt give up his posessions, Jesus didnt say 'ill forgive you' he instead said "with God anything is possible' and gave an example of a camel going through the eye of a needle, ie that the impossible is possible with God.
in islam we're told if a person posesses an atoms worth of faith, it will be enough to be redeemed even in hell, because that light will overpower all other things eventually. That light isnt going to be extinguished, though 'weak' but life will still grow from it, so even in the depths of darkness i imagine God's light creating a paradise 'eventually'.
So in this sense, in islam, we accept suffering aswell as our sinfulness, not that we embrace sinfulness but accept that it's human nature. In christianity, the Jesus way...even looking at a woman with lust, or calling someone a fool=hell. However in the context, for Jesus...even our paradise is his hell because there's this idea that people in Ihsan even see paradise as an evil place and a distraction from God.

To Jesus, even duality in marraige is a sin...he expected total unity of consciousness.
 





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#59
@TokiEl
You've been led to believe that the establishment of modern Israel and the return of jewish people to the 'holy land' means that they have returned there by God's power to fulfill the messianic/zion prophecies like never before "for 2000 years" etc.
right?
That's right. God is the reason and power behind the return of the Jews to His land.


Except, the Jews not only returned, but created a Jewish state in Jerusalem in the 7th Century AD. It didn't last as long as the current state of Israel, it lasted about 23 years until the byzantines took it back. Do you know what happened in that time period?
I know that. And they tried to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount but an earthquake destroyed their little restoration project.


The prophecies of the remnant, are not like KNOWN jewish people colonising the land.
They talk of a land with no borders, no walls, no weapons...
Wrong the Scriptures speak about cities with no walls.

Back then all cities had walls but with modern weapon technology there is no point in city walls.


Ezekiel 38 tells us a little about that context, eg when the remnant returns, to an empty deserted land (not a land full of people) without borders and weapons...then it will be invaded by Gog & Magog.
The Holy land was a complete wasteland before the Jews returned to till it.


We do know from Revelation 11 that the city will be known as 'sodom and egypt'
What's the connection? sodom=homosexuality and egypt=worship of lucifer aka Ra aka the 'sun god' (known today as the solar logos lucifer)

Do we find any evidence of this in israel?
There is an lgbtq+ problem also in Israel as in the whole world.

Openly in the West and in the closet in the East.
 





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#60
These are just some of the notes I have been taking while I have been trying to research the evidence to support the location we are calling Israel considering there is no evidence this location was ever known as Israel throughout history. They comprise opinions that contradict at times, but I thought someone else might be interested in the actual archeology of the area. So here are my thoughts and the references for you to investigate for yourselves.

Starting with the ugarite texts that were found in Syria in 1982 that represent original cuneiform writings. It is good to keep in mind that nothing in the Bible exists as a cuneiform original, and you would assume that this is the original form that they would be in. Where is the Old testament in the original cuneiform? It is assumed that the Ugarite texts represent evidence of the early Canaanites, which is fascinating.

The cuneiform writings of the ugarite texts are said to be the closest to what we consider Hebrew as well. They use El to refer to God and there are many similarities to the writing on these tablets and Hebrew writing.

They also include an interesting reference to a people known as Habiru. This is an article about the connection between Habiru and Hebrew by someone who describes himself as a secular Jew who was raised by Jewish progressives. https://www.newenglishreview.org/Robert_Wolfe/From_Habiru_to_Hebrews:_The_Roots_of_the_Jewish_Tradition/

It is interesting to note his comments on the response he received from progressives when he tries to present the connection that can be made between Habiru and Hebrew. The main problem that his research creates is that it contradicts some aspect of the recorded history of the Hebrews in the Bible so that people are not inclined to see his findings as evidence.

I think he makes a fantastic case. He says that the Habiru reference which is present all throughout the ancient world actually to a sort of slander in the ancient world. It is like being called a slave. The author's response to this,

"The best way of finding out how the Habiru felt about being called “Habiru” is by examining how the Hebrews felt about being called “Hebrew.” All the texts which mention the Habiru were written by others and therefore don’t reflect a Habiru point of view, but the Hebrews had ample opportunity to make their views known. And the first thing which every Biblical scholar has noticed about the way the term “Hebrew” is used in Tanach is that it is hardly used at all. In the whole of Tanach, the term “Hebrew” appears only 33 times. In the Torah, the Hebrews are almost always described as the “sons of Israel” (“b’nei Israel” in Hebrew, usually translated as “children of Israel” or “Israelites”). In the later books of Tanach other terms are used, but hardly ever “Hebrew.” "

So the scriptures seem to support the historical evidence that the term was used with negative connotations rather than the way we see the term today.

It is in this article or this one http://www.imninalu.net/Habiru.htm that discusses the wandering nature of the Habiru and how they can be found in multiple locations including southern Mesopotamia, western Arabia, Egypt, and Canaan. There was not a fixed location where these people existed.

The second article says that "What is remarkably interesting is that the ancient peoples ascribe to the Habiru a mysterious relationship with the Divinity. In Hittite documents, long lists of gods are invoked to protect the treaties. They include deities from many different regions and people. The curious nature of this invocation is illustrated by a treaty with Egypt. This list concludes with the following words: "and so on to... and the Hapiri Gods...". Significantly the Hapiru/Habiri Elohim had special mention, and although they are not identified by Name, they also could not be forgotten."

The Habiri also have a history of bondage documented by the Egyptians that would justify the account in Exodus to a certain extent.

The article about the Hyksos from the same website is also fascinating. http://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm

Basically, what this means is that there was a corruption of the text in the time surrounding the second temple period so that most everything regarding the exile up through the books of Maccabees is corrupted information that is likely to be connected with the disappearance of the Phoenicians who were traders and descendants of the Canaanites.

There was a corruption, assumed identity, and forced conversion. It is recognized on Wikipedia that when the Hasmonean dynasty was able to assume power, they used this power to force conversion to Judaism, which increased the number of people identifying as Jews in the time of Christ even though these people were not descended from the group this identity originated from.

"Hyrcanus conquered Transjordan, Samaria,[65] Galilee, and Idumea (also known as Edom), and forced Idumeans to convert to Judaism:
Hyrcanus ... subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, (25) and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time, therefore, this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews.[66]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty
There is also a book by a Israeli professor called The Invention of the Jewish People that discusses the same thing.

"Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed, and that just as most Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Jews are also descended from converts. According to Sand, Judaism was original, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion, and mass conversions to Judaism occurred among the Khazars in the Caucasus, Berbertribes in North Africa, and in the Himyarite Kingdom of the Arabian Peninsula." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

This supports the theory that the Habiru are the true historical Israelites as they are not recorded as maintaining sovereign hold of any location in particular. The only people who have a recognized "claim" to the land we call Israel that is legitimately recorded in history were the Canaanites who are probably responsible for the corruption of the text that makes the assumption that the land belongs to the Jews.

Why would they do this? According to the Ugarite texts, they didn't really like the Habiru, which is evidenced by referring to them as Habiru, which is a form of slander.

The Habiru are also recognized within writings that can actually be considered ancient as having mystical qualities. There is a book called The Secret Society of Moses. I have not read a whole lot of it yet, but so far it is about how the genealogy of Moses is hidden and used as the foundation for the creation of secret societies.

This is an interesting point that I had not considered. The genealogy of Moses is lost in the Bible and few people question why we don't recognize the descendants of Moses in later parts of the text. It is my early prediction that this contributes to the motivation to corrupt the text in some way and this motivation persists in attempts to corrupt the text of the early church and gain control over this new group through the creation of the Catholic church.

This is an article about Josephus who is supposedly descended from a special priest class, the cult of Mithras, and the creation of the Catholic church http://www.viewzone.com/mithras.html

This would eventually lead to further corruption of the original Septuagint translation into the Masoretic text in order to control the conflict created by the early followers of Jesus by corrupting the verses pertaining to the coming of the Messiah and verses that would be considered verbatim quotes from the New Testament; so that today, we are living in bondage of thousands of years of corruption. This is what the prophecy refers to as the mystery of lawlessness that will be revealed so that all things can be restored.

Christ came to set the captive free.

Finally, I believe continuing this investigation will further prove that what we call the state of Israel is what the prophecy refers to as mystery Babylon and it will eventually fall because it has been built on multiple layers of deception that have increased to the point of creating apostacy from the message of Christ.
 





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