Bart Ehrman: How Jesus Became God

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At the recommendation of Etagloc I've watched a handful of lectures. I became an instant fan. The way he teaches, with humor and animation, leading the public into the universe of theological scholarship, is great for people like myself that have a strong interest in science and history. He never denies anyone's faith or attempts to prove his own. I thought these 3 presentations were the most intriguing so far:
This world believes anybody and anyone....except God Himself, who has given us the Truth by His word.
 

DavidSon

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Most here seem to agree that when it comes to actions we are against extremism. However when it comes to belief we almost force others to choose one extreme or the other. Why is that?

On one extreme we have Christians who claim that Jesus is God and co-equal with the Father (whatever that means as it is term that is only used in discussing the abstract idea of the Trinity)even though it is not explicitly taught in scripture. On the other hand we have others who claim Jesus was just another prophet and they deny the resurrection again denying the testimony of scripture. Yet when one presents who Jesus is based on explicit teaching of scripture (that he was a man, but completely yielded to God, sinless, the anointed messiah and the prototype for all resurrected and redeemed humanity) it’s considered a “fringe” belief and relegated to the sidelines of the debate?

To me the crucifixion and resurrection is a greater and more moving miracle when viewed from the aspect that Jesus was not God. What is so special about an all knowing and omnipotent creature temporarily appearing to experience death foreknowing he already has the power to raise himself? It’s a much greater testimony of faith, sacrifice and obedience acknowledging Christ was a man and not God. The example of trust, faith and yielding to the will of God is infinitely greater from that viewpoint.
I hope to hear a response to your statement. Everything I've read from you seems very orthodox and sensible. It's hard to believe your views could be considered "fringe". Mine on the other hand, sure I admit are not mainstream, but I don't belong to any denomination.

The effect of the original disagreements in the church is lingering animosity and bitterness today. The presentation sited the example of Fundamentalists accusing Catholics of not being Christian. Antisemitism was fueled somewhat because of the thought that the Jews didn't just kill Jesus, they killed God Almighty!

I was searching posts from a year ago and someone here had the same complaint: that if they shared an idea they'd be shouted down and told what a sinner and heretic they were. It's outrageous. Please, lets share our unique views but no one should be bullied- especially in a forum about religion and spirituality.
 

elsbet

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You are basing your claim that "Islamic sources do not appear to consistently reverence Jesus as is popularly claimed" on a lame youtube video? good grief.
Red's posted on this subject multiple times, with varied, thoughtful resources. Even a cursory search will show that.

But if you have a problem with youtube videos, then we should all take note, and disregard 90% of the material posted by @DesertRose.

Js.
 

elsbet

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Messages
5,122
At the recommendation of Etagloc I've watched a handful of lectures. I became an instant fan. The way he teaches, with humor and animation, leading the public into the universe of theological scholarship, is great for people like myself that have a strong interest in science and history. He never denies anyone's faith or attempts to prove his own. I thought these 3 presentations were the most intriguing so far:


I'd like to post the outlines he gave and a quick explanation of what I found to be his key points-

DID JESUS THINK HE WAS GOD?

- Gospel according to John
John differs in ways from the synoptic telling of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which were earlier accounts. None of the sayings in John that focus on Christ's divinity to such an extent are in those Gospels. I agree with Ehrman: it makes sense the author was expressing his interpretation of the meaning/role of Jesus by "putting words in his mouth."


-Problem with knowing what Jesus said
Scholars from the Jesus Seminar believe that within the 5 Gospels (they hold Thomas to be as valid historically), only 18% of the sayings could reliably be attributed to Jesus. 40-60 years passed between Jesus's death and the first Gospels.. There are multiple contradictions and discrepancies between them, along with the theological perspective that is imposed.

- A common scholarly reconstruction: Jesus the apocalypticist
The majority of modern scholars agree that Jesus is best understood as an apocalyptic prophet. This was in the period where apocalyptic thinking among the Jews was common. I disagree with Ehrman slightly here: Christ could also be using the popular medium of the day to relay deeper meanings. If we take the teachings literally Jesus held to a similar vision as other apocalypticists- "the Kingdom of God is at hand." Jesus spoke of the "Son of Man", a judge who will destroy the forces of evil and reveal the kingdom of God. Christ uses the phrase implying himself, and yet another figure in other passages.

There is enough evidence to think that Jesus did see himself as a prophet, a voice of God.

Ehrman believes Jesus also thought of himself as the anointed one, the Messiah (a physical, future King of Israel). He points out the verse where Jesus says that when the Kingdom arrives, his 12 disciples would be made rulers. Ehrman says that if He was teaching this to his apostles, Judas may have informed Pilate, leading to the accusations and trial. Erman doesn't believe Jesus planned to sacrifice himself. The disciples afterward started deciding that the messiah had to suffer, and thus CHRISTIANITY was born.

THE EARLIEST UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS' DIVINITY

-Divine humans and the ancient world
In the old world there were gradations within the realms of divine vs. human. Polytheists acknowledged lesser gods and divinities, and their gods could intermingle with humans. Moses, Enoch, and David were elevated in recognition as God. In ancient belief God could also become human, as in examples of the "angel of the Lord".

Ehrman argues that early Christians viewed Jesus in the same 3 ways, whether independently or as a combination: as human that became divine, divine human that was born of a union of God and a mortal (Mary), and a God that came to earth.

-Exultation christology
Exultation Christology is a study of the way we believe that Christ was exulted to the level of divinity. The first followers thought of Jesus as a 100% flesh and blood human, until the resurrection. If He was raised from the dead, they concluded He must have gone to heaven with God afterward, and was made into a divine being. Ehrman sites examples of pre-literary tradition sprinkled into the earliest writings (50AD or so). In the letter to the Romans Paul mentions Jesus born of the flesh of David, who became the son of God at His resurrection. Some scholars consider this a low level christology, the view that God "adopted" Jesus. This is an interesting side-note: Ehrman doesn't think the author of Romans is Paul, because Paul believed Jesus became the son of God before the resurrection.

-Backward movement of christology
Christians at some point started thinking that Christ must have been "the Son" earlier in His life. They went back to the baptism (where the "voice of God" was heard) and then to to His birth which by this reason must have also been a supernatural occurrence. That's why the earliest writings of Paul don't highlight the details of what was written in the (later) Gospels, ie the virgin birth.

Eventually the exultation was believed to take place before His birth! What do you know?! Christ was exulted from "eternity past." Again, the consensus among historians is that these were developments happening in the Christian community before Paul's writings.

-Incarnation christology

This is the theory that God, the Omnicient, becomes man. Paul is the first Christian author (that we know of), and his letters express this christology. Paul believed that before becoming human, Christ was an angelic being. The Phillipian Hymn Phillipians 2:6-11 is an example of this theology- Jesus was in the form of God and became human to suffer on the cross, and God then exalted Him. The saying ,"every knee shall bow" was taken from ISAIAH 45, in relation to submitting before the Almighty. Jesus is exalted to the level of God, worshiped and confessed to.

The christology of John is the most exalted in the NT. Here, Jesus is incarnated as the Word, which through Him the universe was created. Since the Word was God and with God, Jesus is now elevated beyond the plane of mere angels- HE IS THE CREATOR! Quite a journey of interpretation as the theology developed in the 1st century. But the story doesn't end here.

THE CHRISTIAN DILEMMA

The dilemma began among the first churches in attempting to agree on a concrete description of what/who Jesus is. Passages of scripture seemed to be at odds with one another. Different Christian groups emphasized different things. A paradox evolved- Jesus is 100% human, and 100% God. Was Jesus God or was God God? Sounds insane but this is what the early followers were arguing.

-Birth of the trinity

In the 2nd and 3rd century there were still debates over Christ's divinity and the nature of God. The established churches rejected contrary opinions. Modalism was one solution to the paradoxes; that God could have different modes of existence. The popes and bishops held this view. A theologian and intellectual Tertullian (the great-grand daddy of the trinity lol) wrote against Modalism, regarding it a heresy. He noted that God had a relationship with the son, therefore God is not the son. He devised the word "trinity" to describe God as three distinct but equal beings.

In the 4th century debates remained among scholars. The faith had grown and intellectuals were coming up with new solutions to the religious dilemmas. The teachings of Arius (that Jesus was subordinate to God the Father) caused a rift within the orthodox churches, which led to Constantine calling for a council to establish a set doctrine for the Roman populace. Arius lost the debate. Christ was now affirmed as equal to God, same powers and honor, and He always existed. The holy spirit was acknowledged in the doctrine of the trinity and together they were understood to be a mystery, a problem beyond logic.

Remarkably, Arianism survived and some historians think in the 4th century there were more Christians who held his view than not. The debates never ended. There are Christians who insist that if you don't follow their doctrinal interpretation, you're a heretic. Christianity, instead of being of Jesus, became about Jesus- and here we are today.
If Todd and Colgate had a child... :rolleyes:
 

JoChris

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Messages
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I hope to hear a response to your statement. Everything I've read from you seems very orthodox and sensible. It's hard to believe your views could be considered "fringe". Mine on the other hand, sure I admit are not mainstream, but I don't belong to any denomination.

The effect of the original disagreements in the church is lingering animosity and bitterness today. The presentation sited the example of Fundamentalists accusing Catholics of not being Christian. Antisemitism was fueled somewhat because of the thought that the Jews didn't just kill Jesus, they killed God Almighty!

I was searching posts from a year ago and someone here had the same complaint: that if they shared an idea they'd be shouted down and told what a sinner and heretic they were. It's outrageous. Please, lets share our unique views but no one should be bullied- especially in a forum about religion and spirituality.
Is to safe to assume from your above statement that according to you Jesus is narrowminded and bigoted?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:6&version=KJV
 

JoChris

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Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
6,168
At the recommendation of Etagloc I've watched a handful of lectures. I became an instant fan. The way he teaches, with humor and animation, leading the public into the universe of theological scholarship, is great for people like myself that have a strong interest in science and history. He never denies anyone's faith or attempts to prove his own. I thought these 3 presentations were the most intriguing so far:


I'd like to post the outlines he gave and a quick explanation of what I found to be his key points-

DID JESUS THINK HE WAS GOD?

- Gospel according to John
John differs in ways from the synoptic telling of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which were earlier accounts. None of the sayings in John that focus on Christ's divinity to such an extent are in those Gospels. I agree with Ehrman: it makes sense the author was expressing his interpretation of the meaning/role of Jesus by "putting words in his mouth."


-Problem with knowing what Jesus said
Scholars from the Jesus Seminar believe that within the 5 Gospels (they hold Thomas to be as valid historically), only 18% of the sayings could reliably be attributed to Jesus. 40-60 years passed between Jesus's death and the first Gospels.. There are multiple contradictions and discrepancies between them, along with the theological perspective that is imposed.

- A common scholarly reconstruction: Jesus the apocalypticist
The majority of modern scholars agree that Jesus is best understood as an apocalyptic prophet. This was in the period where apocalyptic thinking among the Jews was common. I disagree with Ehrman slightly here: Christ could also be using the popular medium of the day to relay deeper meanings. If we take the teachings literally Jesus held to a similar vision as other apocalypticists- "the Kingdom of God is at hand." Jesus spoke of the "Son of Man", a judge who will destroy the forces of evil and reveal the kingdom of God. Christ uses the phrase implying himself, and yet another figure in other passages.

There is enough evidence to think that Jesus did see himself as a prophet, a voice of God.

Ehrman believes Jesus also thought of himself as the anointed one, the Messiah (a physical, future King of Israel). He points out the verse where Jesus says that when the Kingdom arrives, his 12 disciples would be made rulers. Ehrman says that if He was teaching this to his apostles, Judas may have informed Pilate, leading to the accusations and trial. Erman doesn't believe Jesus planned to sacrifice himself. The disciples afterward started deciding that the messiah had to suffer, and thus CHRISTIANITY was born.

THE EARLIEST UNDERSTANDING OF JESUS' DIVINITY

-Divine humans and the ancient world
In the old world there were gradations within the realms of divine vs. human. Polytheists acknowledged lesser gods and divinities, and their gods could intermingle with humans. Moses, Enoch, and David were elevated in recognition as God. In ancient belief God could also become human, as in examples of the "angel of the Lord".

Ehrman argues that early Christians viewed Jesus in the same 3 ways, whether independently or as a combination: as human that became divine, divine human that was born of a union of God and a mortal (Mary), and a God that came to earth.

-Exultation christology
Exultation Christology is a study of the way we believe that Christ was exulted to the level of divinity. The first followers thought of Jesus as a 100% flesh and blood human, until the resurrection. If He was raised from the dead, they concluded He must have gone to heaven with God afterward, and was made into a divine being. Ehrman sites examples of pre-literary tradition sprinkled into the earliest writings (50AD or so). In the letter to the Romans Paul mentions Jesus born of the flesh of David, who became the son of God at His resurrection. Some scholars consider this a low level christology, the view that God "adopted" Jesus. This is an interesting side-note: Ehrman doesn't think the author of Romans is Paul, because Paul believed Jesus became the son of God before the resurrection.

-Backward movement of christology
Christians at some point started thinking that Christ must have been "the Son" earlier in His life. They went back to the baptism (where the "voice of God" was heard) and then to to His birth which by this reason must have also been a supernatural occurrence. That's why the earliest writings of Paul don't highlight the details of what was written in the (later) Gospels, ie the virgin birth.

Eventually the exultation was believed to take place before His birth! What do you know?! Christ was exulted from "eternity past." Again, the consensus among historians is that these were developments happening in the Christian community before Paul's writings.

-Incarnation christology

This is the theory that God, the Omnicient, becomes man. Paul is the first Christian author (that we know of), and his letters express this christology. Paul believed that before becoming human, Christ was an angelic being. The Phillipian Hymn Phillipians 2:6-11 is an example of this theology- Jesus was in the form of God and became human to suffer on the cross, and God then exalted Him. The saying ,"every knee shall bow" was taken from ISAIAH 45, in relation to submitting before the Almighty. Jesus is exalted to the level of God, worshiped and confessed to.

The christology of John is the most exalted in the NT. Here, Jesus is incarnated as the Word, which through Him the universe was created. Since the Word was God and with God, Jesus is now elevated beyond the plane of mere angels- HE IS THE CREATOR! Quite a journey of interpretation as the theology developed in the 1st century. But the story doesn't end here.

THE CHRISTIAN DILEMMA

The dilemma began among the first churches in attempting to agree on a concrete description of what/who Jesus is. Passages of scripture seemed to be at odds with one another. Different Christian groups emphasized different things. A paradox evolved- Jesus is 100% human, and 100% God. Was Jesus God or was God God? Sounds insane but this is what the early followers were arguing.

-Birth of the trinity

In the 2nd and 3rd century there were still debates over Christ's divinity and the nature of God. The established churches rejected contrary opinions. Modalism was one solution to the paradoxes; that God could have different modes of existence. The popes and bishops held this view. A theologian and intellectual Tertullian (the great-grand daddy of the trinity lol) wrote against Modalism, regarding it a heresy. He noted that God had a relationship with the son, therefore God is not the son. He devised the word "trinity" to describe God as three distinct but equal beings.

In the 4th century debates remained among scholars. The faith had grown and intellectuals were coming up with new solutions to the religious dilemmas. The teachings of Arius (that Jesus was subordinate to God the Father) caused a rift within the orthodox churches, which led to Constantine calling for a council to establish a set doctrine for the Roman populace. Arius lost the debate. Christ was now affirmed as equal to God, same powers and honor, and He always existed. The holy spirit was acknowledged in the doctrine of the trinity and together they were understood to be a mystery, a problem beyond logic.

Remarkably, Arianism survived and some historians think in the 4th century there were more Christians who held his view than not. The debates never ended. There are Christians who insist that if you don't follow their doctrinal interpretation, you're a heretic. Christianity, instead of being of Jesus, became about Jesus- and here we are today.
Many Christian apologists have shown the holes in Ehrman's arguments.
Links to their critiques here. https://www.alwaysbeready.com/bart-ehrman

It seems that anything but mainstream Christian apologetics material will be believable to you though.
This is why: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+timothy+4:1&version=KJV

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/54-29/understanding-the-seducing-spirit

P.S. I know the danger of exploring different spiritualties and worldviews like you probably assume narrow-minded JoChris would never dream of doing.
Once you get stuck in the spiritual quicksand it is impossible to get out.... without the helping hand of the living Jesus Christ.
 
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Red's posted on this subject multiple times, with varied, thoughtful resources. Even a cursory search will show that.

But if you have a problem with youtube videos, then we should all take note, and disregard 90% of the material posted by @DesertRose.

Js.
Beleiving in Jesus Christ, his miraculous birth, his prophethood and purity, his ascension to heaven and eventual return are all part of Islamic faith. Our doctrine is clear as to who Jesus was and who he was not, so I'm not sure which subject you are talking about. The rest of your post doesn't even deserve a response. Js.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What struck me was your obsession with Islam. Although, knowing that Islam is your birthright and desire of your soul, it's not so astounding that you can't stop posting about it at every chance you get. :)
On the contrary, I am much more interested in particular Muslims than Islam in general. I can't talk to "Islam" but I do like to talk with Muslims and try to understand why and how they see things the way they do. I actually happen to think that God loves Muslims as much as everyone else!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Funny to see all the Christians scrambling to connect it to Muslims when the non-Muslim OP brings up Bart Ehrman.
I think i misread @DavidSon on this one @grateful servant - previously the only folk who seemed to have an interest in Bart were Muslims...

I am so glad he was brought up because his material is very popular with lots of people who want to picture Jesus differently to the way the Bible presents Him.

C.S. Lewis once famously wrote the following:-

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."​
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

This is a very compelling argument and gave very little wriggle room for those who didn't want Jesus as Lord. These days there is another option presented which mas first proposed by the Bishop of Durham, I believe :-

"Liar, Lunatic, Lord or Legend"

It is in this fourth battleground that those who wish to deny the deity of Christ now fight. Christopher Hitchins wrote "The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ" to further promote this "Legend" idea. The "Jesus Seminar" is based on much the same logic.

Sometimes you get a letter you don't want to open so you leave it for a while! What @DavidSon did for me yesterday was the equivalent of making me open my mail!

What I found out in particular by looking at the debate between Bart and William was the unsound logical roots of Bart's presentation. I was already aware of the drive by "critical Christians" to elevate the Alexandrian texts to primary importance and have discussed this elsewhere.

William simply goes through and addresses those presuppositions. In doing so he seems to have done what Lee Strobel did for the argument against the supernatural proposed by Hume - set them in a rather different light...

 

TokiEl

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The Bible is His story... and contains prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled...

And that's what i'm interested in.


I'm done with the Bible basics... like Jesus is God and the Devil is the god of Islam etc etc...
 
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Hi @AspiringSoul

Imagine the frustration the Islamic contingent of the Forum might be if a new book, claiming to reverence Muhammad claimed a restored revelation of his identity as a pacifist Saudi goat-hearder? Picture the endless threads constantly attempting to rewrite the Qur'an and Hadith to select points that back up such a view!

Actually @DavidSon has done me a great favour today as I have had time to cross examine some of the logic of Bart Ehrman's philosophical stance. William Lane-Craig incisively deconstructs it here.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/william-lane-craig-how-bart-ehrman-became-apostate.5228/

As regards negative anti-Islamic material, the guy in the clip simply brings out an inconsistency with the supposed Islamic respect for Jesus that is much vaunted in these discussions which seems germain to the topic.
do you mean like every other day on this forum and every other forum online?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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do you mean like every other day on this forum and every other forum online?
Perhaps? I think that unless you truly represent somebody's position in discussion, any point you make out of malice or slight of hand is worthless. I am as unimpressed by Christians who try this as by Muslims or anyone else for that matter.

There is a world of difference (that is missed by most) between discussion and heckling.
 
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