Babylon the Great

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Mystery Babylon has always been Freemasonry, and its main vessel the United States. The world is run my freemasons, not Jews.

"The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing".
The 'whore' is called that because she cheats on God. The 'adulteress'
read Jeremiah 2 and 3.

The freemason's don't have a special bond with God that makes them His metaphorical 'bride' and hence get accused of 'adultery' when they worship idols.

Now you you should already know that texts like Jeremiah 2, 3, Zechariah 5 and Habakkuk 2 contain the stones/trees themes in the context of idolatory. they also connect to the system of usury.



Jesus said
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

this does connect to Revelation 17/18, but notice also the symbolism of stones/trees is here
prophets they killed by stoning...and Jesus being put on the cross (wood).
 






Violette

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My guess would be the RCC since only Christians can commit adultery against God. Who else has a mother church and global political influence?
 






rainerann

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"For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” (Revelation 18:3)

This is why I would consider the Jews to represent Babylon the Great. From the discussion regarding the relationship between Freemasonry and Jews. In regard to the information that is available for the formation of Freemasonry in England where information about Jewish banking is also freely available. There is clearly a connection that places Jews in the position of making an institution like Freemasonry rich.

There is the common argument that this isn't possible and is only a demonstration of antisemitism. However, it is also possible that antisemitism would be the motivation for creating an alliance that would cause freemasons to be dependent on the financial opportunities the Jews would provide. Think about it, if someone hated you, wouldn't you try to make yourself seem indispensable to them?

In the Gospel, there is a parable about the shrewd servant who does this very thing. The servant who fears consequences from his master, goes around helping the people in the community settle their debts so that he will have opportunities available when he receives consequences from his master.

"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings." (Luke 16:8-9).

Finally, the key feature that demonstrates a connection formed between Jews and Freemasons is their familiarity with things that would be considered Kabbalistic teachings. The Kabbalah and the Talmud were not translated into English until recently. Anything that would be known about these things within groups like this would have had to have been taught by a Jew. These books are some of the last books to have been translated into other languages because the Jewish community held onto them for their distinction for a long time.

So whether these groups are dangerous or involved in suspicious activities is irrelevant if they are not in the highest position of authority.

 






Helioform

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"For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” (Revelation 18:3)

This is why I would consider the Jews to represent Babylon the Great. From the discussion regarding the relationship between Freemasonry and Jews. In regard to the information that is available for the formation of Freemasonry in England where information about Jewish banking is also freely available. There is clearly a connection that places Jews in the position of making an institution like Freemasonry rich.

There is the common argument that this isn't possible and is only a demonstration of antisemitism. However, it is also possible that antisemitism would be the motivation for creating an alliance that would cause freemasons to be dependent on the financial opportunities the Jews would provide. Think about it, if someone hated you, wouldn't you try to make yourself seem indispensable to them?

In the Gospel, there is a parable about the shrewd servant who does this very thing. The servant who fears consequences from his master, goes around helping the people in the community settle their debts so that he will have opportunities available when he receives consequences from his master.

"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings." (Luke 16:8-9).

Finally, the key feature that demonstrates a connection formed between Jews and Freemasons is their familiarity with things that would be considered Kabbalistic teachings. The Kabbalah and the Talmud were not translated into English until recently. Anything that would be known about these things within groups like this would have had to have been taught by a Jew. These books are some of the last books to have been translated into other languages because the Jewish community held onto them for their distinction for a long time.

So whether these groups are dangerous or involved in suspicious activities is irrelevant if they are not in the highest position of authority.

That quote from Mayer Rothschild is bogus.

"The actual quote which is attributed to Mayer Amschel Rothschild is:

Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!​
A number of sources (such as this one) claim that this statement was made in 1838 (which would have been a difficult feat as he would have been dead for 26 years by then). Wikiquote claims that there is no way to verify by whom, when or why it was made. It notes:

No primary source for this is known and the earliest attribution to him known is 1935 (Money Creators, Gertrude M. Coogan). Before that, "Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws" was said to be a "maxim" of the House of Rothschilds, or, even more vaguely, of the "money lenders of the Old World".​
It is adapted from another well known quote:

Let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws.​
This is in turn attributed to the Scot, Andrew Fletcher:

In An Account of a Conversation he made his well-known remark "I knew a very wise man so much of Sir Christopher's sentiment, that he believed if a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation."​

The saying is apocryphal and was originated by the populist author T. Cushing Daniel, a Washington-based lobbyist and lawyer, in his testimony before the U.S. Congress in 1911 in hearings on House Resolution 314 (whether financiers were restricting trade by domination of the money supply). This is what Daniel said:

William Pitt made this statement: "Let the American people go into their debt-funding schemes and banking systems, and from that hour their boasted independence will be a mere phantom." He realized the maxim that Rothschilds laid down as fundamental: "Let us control the money of a country and we care not who makes its laws."​
It is true that the Rothschilds had "maxims" and these were published by London weeklies in the 1890s. All of these maxims were homey things like "Be sure you are right, then go forward." Cushing simply invented the imaginary "control the money" maxim for the purposes of his books and testimony.

The original Rothschilds were very religious, modest people. Its hard to imagine Nathan R. or his brothers as having said such an arrogant thing and it conflicts with what is known about his personality. Long after Nathan R. was dead, during the period 1890-1910, which was a period of anti-trust and anti-wealth agitation in the United States many writers made up all kinds of stories to portray the Rothschilds and other "barons" according to their stereotypes of rich, arrogant puppet masters. These stereotypes often did not resemble the actual people.

Concerning the phraseology and idea that Daniel expressed, this was not original to him, but, as you might imagine, was adapted from the works of others. In this case the phrase appears to have come from a short paper on the History of New York State published in 1892 by Welland Hendricks, a school principal. This is what Hendricks wrote:

Our Dutch forefathers who seemed to care little whether the flag of England or of Holland floated over the weak fort of New Amsterdam so long as their trade was uninterrupted have bequeathed their spirit to our keen-sighted non-voting business men of to-day, and all along the motto of our leading citizens has seemed to be — let us make the money of the nation and we care not who makes its laws.​
Daniel completely perverted the original sense of the sentence to his own purpose. Hendricks was borrowing the phrase as well. In 1890, a meddlying clergyman named Wilbur Crafts, who tried to get all kinds of moralistic laws passed in New York, wrote a tract promoting the banning of work on Sunday containing the paragraph:

Massachusetts took upon herself the appointment of Boston's Police Commissioners, and so of her police. The lawless had been saying for years, "Let us appoint the city's police and we care not who makes its laws."​
The actual origin of the printed phrase dates back to the 17th century Scottish Parliamentarian, Andrew Fletcher:

I said I knew a very wise man so much of Sir Christopher's sentiment, that he believed if a man were permitted to make all the ballads he need not care who should make the laws of a nation, and we find that most of the ancient legislators thought that they could not well reform the manners of any city without the help of a lyric, and sometimes of a dramatic poet.
-- An ACCOUNT of A CONVERSATION concerning A RIGHT REGULATION of GOVERNMENTS For the common Good of Mankind: In A LETTER to the Marquiss of Montrose , the Earls of Rothes, Roxburg and Haddington, From London the first of December, 1703'.
Now, of whom is Fletcher speaking? Who is the "very wise man"? It is, of course, Sir Phillip Sydney (1554-1586), the English poet who came to completely dominate the court of Queen Elizabeth even though he was only in his 20s. Sydney is the one who originated the phrase "Let me make the ballads of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7887/did-rothschild-say-this-famous-quote-if-yes-what-did-he-mean-by-it
 






rainerann

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That quote from Mayer Rothschild is bogus.

"The actual quote which is attributed to Mayer Amschel Rothschild is:

Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!​
A number of sources (such as this one) claim that this statement was made in 1838 (which would have been a difficult feat as he would have been dead for 26 years by then). Wikiquote claims that there is no way to verify by whom, when or why it was made. It notes:

No primary source for this is known and the earliest attribution to him known is 1935 (Money Creators, Gertrude M. Coogan). Before that, "Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws" was said to be a "maxim" of the House of Rothschilds, or, even more vaguely, of the "money lenders of the Old World".​
It is adapted from another well known quote:

Let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws.​
This is in turn attributed to the Scot, Andrew Fletcher:

In An Account of a Conversation he made his well-known remark "I knew a very wise man so much of Sir Christopher's sentiment, that he believed if a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation."​

The saying is apocryphal and was originated by the populist author T. Cushing Daniel, a Washington-based lobbyist and lawyer, in his testimony before the U.S. Congress in 1911 in hearings on House Resolution 314 (whether financiers were restricting trade by domination of the money supply). This is what Daniel said:

William Pitt made this statement: "Let the American people go into their debt-funding schemes and banking systems, and from that hour their boasted independence will be a mere phantom." He realized the maxim that Rothschilds laid down as fundamental: "Let us control the money of a country and we care not who makes its laws."​
It is true that the Rothschilds had "maxims" and these were published by London weeklies in the 1890s. All of these maxims were homey things like "Be sure you are right, then go forward." Cushing simply invented the imaginary "control the money" maxim for the purposes of his books and testimony.

The original Rothschilds were very religious, modest people. Its hard to imagine Nathan R. or his brothers as having said such an arrogant thing and it conflicts with what is known about his personality. Long after Nathan R. was dead, during the period 1890-1910, which was a period of anti-trust and anti-wealth agitation in the United States many writers made up all kinds of stories to portray the Rothschilds and other "barons" according to their stereotypes of rich, arrogant puppet masters. These stereotypes often did not resemble the actual people.

Concerning the phraseology and idea that Daniel expressed, this was not original to him, but, as you might imagine, was adapted from the works of others. In this case the phrase appears to have come from a short paper on the History of New York State published in 1892 by Welland Hendricks, a school principal. This is what Hendricks wrote:

Our Dutch forefathers who seemed to care little whether the flag of England or of Holland floated over the weak fort of New Amsterdam so long as their trade was uninterrupted have bequeathed their spirit to our keen-sighted non-voting business men of to-day, and all along the motto of our leading citizens has seemed to be — let us make the money of the nation and we care not who makes its laws.​
Daniel completely perverted the original sense of the sentence to his own purpose. Hendricks was borrowing the phrase as well. In 1890, a meddlying clergyman named Wilbur Crafts, who tried to get all kinds of moralistic laws passed in New York, wrote a tract promoting the banning of work on Sunday containing the paragraph:

Massachusetts took upon herself the appointment of Boston's Police Commissioners, and so of her police. The lawless had been saying for years, "Let us appoint the city's police and we care not who makes its laws."​
The actual origin of the printed phrase dates back to the 17th century Scottish Parliamentarian, Andrew Fletcher:

I said I knew a very wise man so much of Sir Christopher's sentiment, that he believed if a man were permitted to make all the ballads he need not care who should make the laws of a nation, and we find that most of the ancient legislators thought that they could not well reform the manners of any city without the help of a lyric, and sometimes of a dramatic poet.
-- An ACCOUNT of A CONVERSATION concerning A RIGHT REGULATION of GOVERNMENTS For the common Good of Mankind: In A LETTER to the Marquiss of Montrose , the Earls of Rothes, Roxburg and Haddington, From London the first of December, 1703'.
Now, of whom is Fletcher speaking? Who is the "very wise man"? It is, of course, Sir Phillip Sydney (1554-1586), the English poet who came to completely dominate the court of Queen Elizabeth even though he was only in his 20s. Sydney is the one who originated the phrase "Let me make the ballads of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."

https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7887/did-rothschild-say-this-famous-quote-if-yes-what-did-he-mean-by-it
Interesting, but the difference doesn’t change the meaning or the overall point I was trying to make. Thanks for sharing though.
 






Helioform

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Interesting, but the difference doesn’t change the meaning or the overall point I was trying to make. Thanks for sharing though.
Yeah, except the fact that not all bankers are Jewish and the present modern banking system is a Templar system (fractional reserve banking) originating from and having its power base in Switzerland. Jews never had as much impact on world banking as the Templar knights did, so essentially your argument is flawed.
 






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rainerann

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Yeah, except the fact that not all bankers are Jewish and the present modern banking system is a Templar system (fractional reserve banking) originating from and having its power base in Switzerland. Jews never had as much impact on world banking as the Templar knights did, so essentially your argument is flawed.
Right your talking about something that is a combination of the creation of fiat currency with the application of usury which the Torah permits when the lender is not a Jew. Maybe you missed my illustration of the shrewd servant or the reference to the cooperative agreement that Jews would make that would indicate they held the identity described in Revelation 18:3, which I also quoted.

I think what we are really missing here as well is the history of crypto Judaism that exists throughout history. Crypto-Judaism is mentioned as early as Josephus’ writings and the man was concealing he was a Jew for political gain. I might be able to dig up the reference to this, but the creation of the Freemasons that is documented information available to anyone coincides with the time that the Jews returned to England.

The official date was 1656 when the Jews were allowed to return to England and Freemasonry becomes official in the early 18th century even though there is suspicion it began during the time of King James. However, it wouldn't matter if Freemasonry began around the time of King James according to an article on Oliver Cromwell and the official reinstatement of Jews to England. "there is evidence of an established Jewish community in London before 1655. Fearful of persecution they did not declare their identity, living as Spanish merchants. Whilst their commercial affairs were public their religion was private."

You know what the Spanish are very well known for, masonry. I understand that masonry was done in England as well, but Spain has a very prominent history of tile masonry that someone masquerading as a merchant of Spanish goods would be familiar with. I think there is a connection to this that is concealed because documentation regarding crypto Judaism is limited.

However, even without this, it is clear that there is a strong connection between an alliance between the Jewish people and host nations through shared interest in the banking system.

This is in regard to a letter given to Cromwell convincing him to allow the Jews to return. "The key figure for the celebrants of the 250th anniversary in 1906 was that of Menasseh ben Israel. He was born in Lisbon in 1604 settled in Amsterdam and became a Rabbi. He was a polymath: author, printer, publisher, bookseller and scholar who cultivated links with the new Commonwealth regime in England. It was his belief that the Jewish Messiah would only appear when the Jewish people had spread throughout the world. Establishing communities in England would help to bring about that second coming. Menassen ben Israel published a pamphlet in 1651 appealing to Cromwell" http://www.olivercromwell.org/jews.htm

So this information would indicate that they have their own interests in mind when they are making an alliance.

However, Judaism doesn't always doctrinally support this and that is a subject for another time. In following the doctrine of Judaism, a completely different culture is created that has experienced conflict when it has had to coexist with other nations. Therefore, there are very different communities of Jews that are formed in exile, that still does not prove that they are exempt from the prophetic description of Babylon.

They are in fact the best candidate. In addition to this, I think of Freemasonry in the same way I consider communism. They are both mechanisms of creating a process of recruiting people from different backgrounds that do not conflict with the Jewish teachings regarding genealogies and the distinction given to someone who is a descendant. So you could really identify a hundred people that aren't Jewish who are Freemason and I would just tell you that is why Freemasonry was created for that specific purpose of gaining a following that wasn't Jewish and who would not ever identify themselves as Jewish in order to separate the two even while it could be controlled by the Jews all without anyone ever knowing.

This is because of the way Christianity creates conflict for Judaism and the primary feature that does this is the process of conversion enabling Christianity to grow while Judaism does not grow by the same mechanism. In fact, Jewish teachings are to isolate themselves from other nations in many cases so that the sinful ways of the nations will not integrate into the Jewish community. You have to really put yourselves in their shoes during a time when Christianity is growing and Judaism is all but dying out due to rejection and has no way to gain a larger following.

I just don't see how it doesn't seem logical to create systems that allow recruitment that can still be controlled and that is what Freemasonry is so it is no surprise that they have kabbalistic teachings and other things that wouldn't be available to even a larger audience who could read and understand Hebrew. Understanding Hebrew is not the same thing as having access to Jewish teachings that they keep to themselves.

You also mentioned something interesting about how Freemasons operate in secret. You know who else operates in secret, cryptoJews. The problem is that you don't have a lot of them who have ever revealed something like in order to talk about the experience. You can think of this as being as innocent as you want, but you have just as much access to documentation to prove that it is as innocent as you say it is as I do.
 






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Helioform

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application of usury which the Torah permits when the lender is not a Jew.
Again, independently of Jewish laws, fractional reserve banking was something much worse than just usury and it all originated from Babylon.

"The first use of the fractional reserve system was in the Temple of Shamash under Hammurabi—the sixth king of Babylon (Peter Cook, FEDERAL RESERVE FRACTIONAL RESERVE AND INTEREST-FREE GOVERNMENT CREDIT EXPLAINED 4, 1991)"

You know who else operates in secret, cryptoJews
I was aware of that. I know some of them actually change their names to avoid being tagged as a Jew. But is it really the same thing when they usually do this because they have been persecuted, while Freemasons use secrecy just to hide their real intentions and cover up their crimes?

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons, except murder and treason, and these only at your own option, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him. Prevaricate [falsify], don't tell the whole truth in his case, keep his secrets, forget the most important points. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations, and remember if you live up to your obligation strictly, you'll be free from sin. ‘That's the evidence I sight." (Edmond Ronayne, "Masonic Handbook," page 183)
 






rainerann

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Again, independently of Jewish laws, fractional reserve banking was something much worse than just usury and it all originated from Babylon.

"The first use of the fractional reserve system was in the Temple of Shamash under Hammurabi—the sixth king of Babylon (Peter Cook, FEDERAL RESERVE FRACTIONAL RESERVE AND INTEREST-FREE GOVERNMENT CREDIT EXPLAINED 4, 1991)"



I was aware of that. I know some of them actually change their names to avoid being tagged as a Jew. But is it really the same thing when they usually do this because they have been persecuted, while Freemasons use secrecy just to hide their real intentions and cover up their crimes?

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons, except murder and treason, and these only at your own option, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him. Prevaricate [falsify], don't tell the whole truth in his case, keep his secrets, forget the most important points. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations, and remember if you live up to your obligation strictly, you'll be free from sin. ‘That's the evidence I sight." (Edmond Ronayne, "Masonic Handbook," page 183)
Are you familiar with the Talmud at all? It kinda of seems like your not from the argument you are presenting that mirrors Talmudic teachings.
 






rainerann

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I highly doubt that

" 'Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and say: 'This is our law'; so also if you can justify him by the laws of the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is your law'; but if this can not be done, we use subterfuges to circumvent him."
http://www.come-and-hear.com/babakamma/babakamma_113.html

I am sure you are aware of what subterfuge means. They can lie whenever they cannot reasonably use an existing law to defend themselves with.

Overall, the quote that you used mirrors many of the teachings regarding the differences between legal systems. the rule you are quoting from the Freemasons is the same thing as saying that there is a different rule for a Jew or a Gentile so that the same laws don't apply to the Jews that apply to the Gentiles. This would justify lying in order to protect people. You want to know why you would be permitted to lie is because you could claim that you were forced to use an insufficient legal system that didn't apply to you or define yourself as being "above the law."

"WHERE AN OX BELONGING TO AN ISRAELITE HAS GORED AN OX BELONGING TO A CANAANITE, THERE IS NO LIABILITY,12 WHEREAS WHERE AN OX BELONGING TO A CANAANITEGORES AN OX BELONGING TO AN ISRAELITE, WHETHER WHILE TAM OR MU'AD,13 THE COMPENSATION IS TO BE MADE IN FULL." http://come-and-hear.com/babakamma/babakamma_37.html

Like this for example. It is saying that it is okay for an ox owned by an Israelite to kill an ox owned by a Canaanite. This is justified by suggesting that a Canaanite does not belong under Jewish law which provides protection when something like this happens.

This is in conflict with Leviticus 19:34-35 that says that a foreigner is to be equal with a native citizen.

The Talmud is really long so I won't list all the examples of teachings like this that violate the Torah and differentiate between what a Jew is permitted to do in contrast to what a non Jew can do.

However, here is an example of the Talmudic teachings that explain why separate groups would be created by Jews and why they wouldn't seek to convert people to Judaism instead.

"R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance;2 it is our inheritance, not theirs." http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_59.html

This is also something that is not taught in the law of Moses anywhere, but it demonstrates that maintaining a Jewish identity is a priority. Therefore, different methods of relating to society are required.

So I will say again, you can say anything you want about Freemasonry and the way you are deciding to believe it distinguishes itself from Talmudic teachings and I will tell you that is exactly what you are supposed to think. That is exactly the way it was designed to present itself.
Don't you think it just a little bit odd that there are several people that are "exposed" as Freemasons, but an even smaller number who have ever been identified as crypto-Jews? How do you think that Crypto-Jews can maintain a greater degree of secrecy while an organization that functions to develop methods of secrecy are exposed? I think that the Freemasons could learn a thing or two about keeping themselves secret from the Jews because they seem to be doing a better job.

Maybe because the Freemasons are the front and their exposure doesn't really expose anything.
 






Helioform

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I highly doubt that

" 'Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and say: 'This is our law'; so also if you can justify him by the laws of the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is your law'; but if this can not be done, we use subterfuges to circumvent him."
http://www.come-and-hear.com/babakamma/babakamma_113.html

I am sure you are aware of what subterfuge means. They can lie whenever they cannot reasonably use an existing law to defend themselves with.

Overall, the quote that you used mirrors many of the teachings regarding the differences between legal systems. the rule you are quoting from the Freemasons is the same thing as saying that there is a different rule for a Jew or a Gentile so that the same laws don't apply to the Jews that apply to the Gentiles. This would justify lying in order to protect people. You want to know why you would be permitted to lie is because you could claim that you were forced to use an insufficient legal system that didn't apply to you or define yourself as being "above the law."

"WHERE AN OX BELONGING TO AN ISRAELITE HAS GORED AN OX BELONGING TO A CANAANITE, THERE IS NO LIABILITY,12 WHEREAS WHERE AN OX BELONGING TO A CANAANITEGORES AN OX BELONGING TO AN ISRAELITE, WHETHER WHILE TAM OR MU'AD,13 THE COMPENSATION IS TO BE MADE IN FULL." http://come-and-hear.com/babakamma/babakamma_37.html

Like this for example. It is saying that it is okay for an ox owned by an Israelite to kill an ox owned by a Canaanite. This is justified by suggesting that a Canaanite does not belong under Jewish law which provides protection when something like this happens.

This is in conflict with Leviticus 19:34-35 that says that a foreigner is to be equal with a native citizen.

The Talmud is really long so I won't list all the examples of teachings like this that violate the Torah and differentiate between what a Jew is permitted to do in contrast to what a non Jew can do.

However, here is an example of the Talmudic teachings that explain why separate groups would be created by Jews and why they wouldn't seek to convert people to Judaism instead.

"R. Johanan said: A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death, for it is written, Moses commanded us a law for an inheritance;2 it is our inheritance, not theirs." http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_59.html

This is also something that is not taught in the law of Moses anywhere, but it demonstrates that maintaining a Jewish identity is a priority. Therefore, different methods of relating to society are required.

So I will say again, you can say anything you want about Freemasonry and the way you are deciding to believe it distinguishes itself from Talmudic teachings and I will tell you that is exactly what you are supposed to think. That is exactly the way it was designed to present itself.
Don't you think it just a little bit odd that there are several people that are "exposed" as Freemasons, but an even smaller number who have ever been identified as crypto-Jews? How do you think that Crypto-Jews can maintain a greater degree of secrecy while an organization that functions to develop methods of secrecy are exposed? I think that the Freemasons could learn a thing or two about keeping themselves secret from the Jews because they seem to be doing a better job.

Maybe because the Freemasons are the front and their exposure doesn't really expose anything.
"The Babylonian Talmud consists almost entirely of arguments having as their aim the elucidation of the law, ruling, religious teaching or ethical idea. Theories are advanced and then contradicted. The claims of conflicting theories are investigated with great thoroughness and much subtlety."

I'll just take your first quote as an example:

"Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and say: 'This is our law'; so also if you can justify him by the laws of the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is your law'; but if this can not be done, we use subterfuges to circumvent him.34 This is the view of R. Ishmael, but R. Akiba said that we should not attempt to circumvent him on account of the sanctification of the Name. Now according to R. Akiba the whole reason [appears to be,] because of the sanctification of the Name, but were there no infringement of the sanctification of the Name, we could circumvent him! Is then the robbery of a heathen permissible?35 Has it not been taught36 that R. Simeon stated that the following matter was expounded by R. Akiba when he arrived from Zifirin:37 'Whence can we learn that the robbery of a heathen is forbidden? From the significant words: After that he is sold38 he may be redeemed again,39"

As you can see from the comment below the quote, the view is not shared by all Rabbis, as Akiba here interprets it in a different way.

And you have got it the other way, Jews are the front and Freemasonry is the covert. Documents like the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion have been disseminated to foster the same view that you are supporting. But thanks to the internet, their secrecy has largely crumbled.
 






Helioform

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Recommended watch for those who want to know what the Illuminati really is and its connection to Freemasonry. The picture quality is not that good because that lecture is old, but the sound is OK. It's also almost 5 hours long.

 






TokiEl

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Babylon the Great is a city according to an angel and reigns over the world. Nevertheless she will be attacked by nations from the north country. And that is surprising since she is a formidable military power.


Revelation 17 18“And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”


Jeremiah 50 3"For out of the north a nation comes up against her,
Which shall make her land desolate,
And no one shall dwell therein.
They shall move, they shall depart,
Both man and beast."


Jeremiah 50 9"For behold, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon
An assembly of great nations from the north country,
And they shall array themselves against her;
From there she shall be captured.
Their arrows shall be like those of an expert warrior;
None shall return in vain."


Jeremiah 50 14“Put yourselves in array against Babylon all around,
All you who bend the bow;
Shoot at her, spare no arrows,
For she has sinned against the LORD."


Jeremiah 50 23"How the hammer of the whole earth has been cut apart and broken!
How Babylon has become a desolation among the nations!"


Jeremiah 50 24"I have laid a snare for you;
You have indeed been trapped, O Babylon,
And you were not aware;
You have been found and also caught,
Because you have contended against the LORD."
 






rainerann

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"The Babylonian Talmud consists almost entirely of arguments having as their aim the elucidation of the law, ruling, religious teaching or ethical idea. Theories are advanced and then contradicted. The claims of conflicting theories are investigated with great thoroughness and much subtlety."

I'll just take your first quote as an example:

"Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and say: 'This is our law'; so also if you can justify him by the laws of the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is your law'; but if this can not be done, we use subterfuges to circumvent him.34 This is the view of R. Ishmael, but R. Akiba said that we should not attempt to circumvent him on account of the sanctification of the Name. Now according to R. Akiba the whole reason [appears to be,] because of the sanctification of the Name, but were there no infringement of the sanctification of the Name, we could circumvent him! Is then the robbery of a heathen permissible?35 Has it not been taught36 that R. Simeon stated that the following matter was expounded by R. Akiba when he arrived from Zifirin:37 'Whence can we learn that the robbery of a heathen is forbidden? From the significant words: After that he is sold38 he may be redeemed again,39"

As you can see from the comment below the quote, the view is not shared by all Rabbis, as Akiba here interprets it in a different way.

And you have got it the other way, Jews are the front and Freemasonry is the covert. Documents like the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion have been disseminated to foster the same view that you are supporting. But thanks to the internet, their secrecy has largely crumbled.
You counter by responding that the response is not shared by all the rabbis?

Did I not already explain that different communities are formed within Judaism a couple posts back and that this is created by the way the Talmud and the Torah contradict each other and the different ways people respond to the challenges in exile?


Therefore, if I have already brought this into the discussion, how is this used to create a counter argument especially since even when you are explaining it, you can only guarantee that a portion do not hold the same interpretation.

Even if we go with your interpretation of something like the protocols too, what you are saying is that Freemasonry is the one exposed. So again, crypto-Jews are better at the secrecy thing than the Freemasons.

Freemasonry is essentially Noahide laws established as a sort of fraternity that has the potential to end antisemitism through a fixation on Solomon’s temple and an internal control of doctrine by crypto-Jews.

However, your perspective fascinates me. So how do you think establishing Israel as a Jewish country demonstrates that the anti-Semitic Freemasons are the ones at the top of the totem pole?

I just can’t even see how you can reconcile these two things. An antisemitic organization that is largely controlling things behind the scenes is bending over backwards to return the Jews to the land of their inheritance according to their religious beliefs.
 






TokiEl

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However, your perspective fascinates me. So how do you think establishing Israel as a Jewish country demonstrates that the anti-Semitic Freemasons are the ones at the top of the totem pole?

I just can’t even see how you can reconcile these two things. An antisemitic organization that is largely controlling things behind the scenes is bending over backwards to return the Jews to the land of their inheritance according to their religious beliefs.

Freemasonry came up with the brilliant idea to let the Jews round themselves up in Palestine so that Islam could implement once and for all the Final Solution. Somehow they forgot God in all this. Or perhaps they were testing God to see how He would protect the Jews.
 






Helioform

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So how do you think establishing Israel as a Jewish country demonstrates that the anti-Semitic Freemasons are the ones at the top of the totem
Freemasons couldn't care less that Jews return there. It was mostly a result of Nazi persecution. Nazis, who believed the same thing about "Jews controlling Freemasonry" due to Hitler's obsession with the Protocols.
He closed all masonic lodges whose membership were heavily Jewish but kept the Prussian Grand Lodges who were filled with german members who were often decorated military men such as generals and also captains of industry. The reason why he ended up creating a home for Jews is what could be termed "high speculation" and my view is that it was merely an attempt at deporting them somewhere else, which was his original intention before more brutal Nazis surrounded him and influenced him to make him want to exterminate them.
 






Karlysymon

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The 51st chapter of Jeremiah reads like Revelation 18, albeit with more details.
Though, i've very often wondered at this particular verse (49)

‘Babylon must fall because of Israel’s slain, just as the slain in all the earth have fallen because of Babylon.

Why is Babylon blamed/responsible for all the slain since the Fall or at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth?(kjv)
Because John employed the very same language that Jeremiah used, the latter couldn't possibly have been prophesying about an exclusively political entity. And if that is the case, "Israel", in that verse cannot be about an exclusively political entity aswell, hence overturning the entire argument that the country in the Middle East, helmed by Bibi & Co, has a major bearing on eschatological events. John wrote (v24):

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been
slaughtered on the earth.’


And i would argue that its not only physical death that 'she' is responsible for, but spiritual death aswell, from which many will not be aroused.

Given its links to international commerce, that the merchants look upon and mourn its falling, Babylon the Great seems associated with international finance and (not meaning to lead the witness here, your honor) a World Trade Center, a center of world trade.

Mystery Babylon, unless this one has to be excluded because of its obviousness, seems, quite possibly, the guarded, esoteric rites and rituals practiced by some of the progeny of those who wrote and compiled their famous body of literature called the Talmud there, in Babylon (and, to a lesser extent, Palestine). Those practices, not necessarily restricted to one nation or tribe, could be internationalized in the form of a worldwide secret society along the lines of Freemasonry and other orders.
@Artful Revealer had this to say here

but realise that you have
merchants in the spiritual world too. They deal in souls and sin is their currency.
So, i wonder if the list of spiritual/religious merchants reads like a "who's who" of the religious elite. Maybe some these are Merchants of Venice :)


-spiritual guide to the most powerful men in the world? Well, not suprising because this Masonic lodge lists Graham, Truman and Bush 1 as Masons.


Apparently that's a masonic handsign (bears paw??).
 






rainerann

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Freemasons couldn't care less that Jews return there. It was mostly a result of Nazi persecution. Nazis, who believed the same thing about "Jews controlling Freemasonry" due to Hitler's obsession with the Protocols.
He closed all masonic lodges whose membership were heavily Jewish but kept the Prussian Grand Lodges who were filled with german members who were often decorated military men such as generals and also captains of industry. The reason why he ended up creating a home for Jews is what could be termed "high speculation" and my view is that it was merely an attempt at deporting them somewhere else, which was his original intention before more brutal Nazis surrounded him and influenced him to make him want to exterminate them.
I still find this a confusing position considering that the state of Israel was the vision of the Zionism that precedes Nazi Germany. The creation of the state of Israel has little to do with Hitler's vision considering it was established by countries that subdued the German army and won the war.

What you are essentially saying here reiterates my point that Freemasonry works to the advantage of the Jewish community and you are even admitting that many Jews were eager to be a part of Masonic lodges if Hitler had not intervened to stop this for whatever reason he had. Hindering membership within Germany does not distinguish the Masons in any way as an entity that shares Hitler's views.

Therefore, funding and establishing Israel seems advantageous to the Jews if the Freemasons are responsible for this because the Freemasons are in a position of higher authority. We give Israel an awful lot of money to conclude that they simply do not care where the Jews return. Billions and billions of dollars. Their existence depends on outside financial contribution so it is odd that you would conclude that they don't care where the Jews return. People put their money into things they care deeply about. If someone buys an expensive car, he cares about how the car will provide value to his life. People don't make extravagant purchases without caring how they will provide value to their life. In reality, what you are saying further supports my theory that Freemasonry is a servant to the Jewish community and not the other way around.

This happens because what we know as Zionism didn't begin with the Zionists. Zionism essentially began in response to the creation of Christianity. Through the years it has adopted different names. Freemason is just another faction of the Zionism root that the Bible refers to as the mystery of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

The mystery of lawlessness represents the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6. Here is how the seals are described according to Zechariah.

"The angel told me, “These are the four spirits[a] of heaven going out after presenting themselves to the Lord of the whole earth. 6 The one with the black horses is going to the land of the north, the white horses are going after them, but the dappled horses are going to the land of the south.” 7 As the strong horses went out, they wanted to go patrol the earth, and the Lord said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8 Then He summoned me saying, “See, those going to the land of the north have pacified My Spirit in the northern land.” (Zechariah 6:5-8).

So the rider on the white horse is the mystery of lawlessness that will go out to conquer goes north following the black horse which is described as the scales in Revelation 6. This refers to the development of the fractional reserves economy that we already discussed being created in the north that essentially works as a pair of scales that can easily be used to change the how much currency exists within a certain region.

So both of these riders go to the north along with those who pacify His spirit, which is evident in the absence of the persecution of the church within the north in comparison to everywhere else in the world. There is no place on earth that has a history of removing persecution of the church that is comparable with the north. So there are three pieces of evidence that this prophecy is true.

Then, Daniel 11 talks about the battle between the north and south. “At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the beautiful land, and many will fall. But these will escape from his power: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people[s] of the Ammonites. 42 He will extend his power against the countries, and not even the land of Egypt will escape. 43 He will get control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the riches of Egypt. The Libyans and Cushites will also be in submission.[t] 44 But reports from the east and the north will terrify him, and he will go out with great fury to annihilate and completely destroy many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and[u] the beautiful holy mountain, but he will meet his end with no one to help him." (Daniel 11:40-45).

This is referring to the rider on the white horse who is the mystery of lawlessness present already in the world and will manifest as the man of lawlessness, or the beast of Revelation 13 when the prophecy is fulfilled who will come from the north. The mystery of lawlessness came into the world when the Jewish people rejected Christ as Messiah and the prophecy will be complete when this rejection by His own people reaches its fulfillment. It says he will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain.

This is interesting to consider in light of the debate over whether Jerusalem should be considered the capital of Israel. How does Jerusalem being considered part of Israel benefit the Freemasons? It doesn't, but again the Jews don't benefit the Freemasons, the Freemasons benefit the Jews. They are a Noahide community that rejects Christ as savior in the way the Christian community does and so they will be welcome in the Jewish world order; whereas, a Christian who believes Jesus is the Messiah in contrast with whoever they eventually identify as a Messiah, will not be welcome. When the "Jewish Messiah" is revealed, there will be no more freedom of religion.

Therefore, since the time Christianity was established, there has been scheming in order to remove Christ from the Jewish identity. This is evident in what the Talmud says about Christ and countless writings within the Jewish community about their alternate views toward a future Messiah throughout the years. Anyone but Christ they say. That is the mystery of lawlessness and that is why re-establishing Israel is referred to as mystery Babylon according to prophecy. It is called mystery Babylon because they are a people who have rejected their Messiah. It is essentially a way of rebuking them for this.
 






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