Athanasius VS Arius

Red Sky at Morning

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The concept of the Trinity, confusion and contradiction over how the idea first emerged and it's implications is never far from debate here on the Forum.

From an historical perspective, this difference in view came to a climactic showdown in the controversy between Athanasius and Arius.

**This creed is named after Athanasius (A.D. 293-373), the champion of orthodoxy against Arian attacks on the doctrine of the trinity. Although Athanasius did not write this creed and it is improperly named after him, the name persists because until the seventeenth century it was commonly ascribed to him. It is not from Greek (Eastern), but from Latin (Western) origin, and is not recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church today. Apart from the opening and closing sentences, this creed consists of two parts, the first setting forth the orthodox doctrine of the trinity, and the second dealing chiefly with the incarnation and the two-natures doctrine. The translation above was adopted by the CRC Synod of 1988.

It the famous creed, Athanasius refers to "catholic", by way of "authentic" rather than the later meaning with a large C it came to take on.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
The significance of the Trinity for the doctrine of salvation cannot be underestimated. Arius opposed this idea and in some ways could be regarded as the spiritual father of the Jehovah's Witnesses and other sects that denied the Triune nature of God. A recent study I listened to covered these issues as well as anything I have ever heard. The first part deals with the controversy between the two views.

 
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DesertRose

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Here is my contribution to this thread I was saving it for the other one:
May the Creator make it easy for those who understand to understand the seriousness of this issue. Ameen.

 

Red Sky at Morning

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The study YouTube link I posted above includes two further parts, the first dealing with the Trinity in the Old Testament, the second with the New. This information may be particularly helpful to @Unknown Warrior in your conversations with Jehovah's Withesses.


And


I was going to post all three up in another thread:

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-is-god-like.4270/

As this topic is one of the key controversies here, I thought it might merit its own thread.
 

TokiEl

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Yes early on one Arius born about 250 AD came to the conclusion that God the Son did not always exist but became God the Son after God the Father begot Him. So according to Arius the Faher is the head poncho who begot God the Son.

I don't know from where Arius got this idea but it gained in popularity and a lot of Germanic tribes were in fact Christendom with the taste of Arianism.


"if the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he [the Son] had his substance from nothing." - Arius
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yes early on one Arius born about 250 AD came to the conclusion that God the Son did not always exist but became God the Son after God the Father begot Him. So according to Arius the Faher is the head poncho who begot God the Son.

I don't know from where Arius got this idea but it gained in popularity and a lot of Germanic tribes were in fact Christendom with the taste of Arianism.


"if the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he [the Son] had his substance from nothing." - Arius
Kind of contradicts John 1, doesn't he!!

He obviously hadn't listened to the talk on the Trinity in the Old Testament (v.good btw)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yes he had no Roger Price to take him aside and tell him a few things...

Arius contradicts John 1, John 8, Isaiah 9, Micah 5 etc etc.

He must have been led astray by a lying spirit... poor sod.
What interested me is how right Paul was in his words in Acts 20:

28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
 
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weak, you didn't present Arius's view, only Athansius insisting his view is the correct view...

Whilst the Gospel clearly gives us a heirarchy where the Son can do absolutely zero without the Father...and the holy spirit can only do what it gets from the Son.....
this Athanasian creed says they are co-equals.

it is cute how you also claim Arius basically inspired Jehovah's witnesses and other small sects. dude..christianity was hijacked by rome
this idea you have that the catholic church was once okay and later not okay is absurd....all the polythiesm in catholicism is precisely because of the trinitarian doctrine
the only difference is the catholics are more theologically honest with it.
ie if Jesus is def 100% god then mary is the mother of god for sure.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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weak, you didn't present Arius's view, only Athansius insisting his view is the correct view...

Whilst the Gospel clearly gives us a heirarchy where the Son can do absolutely zero without the Father...and the holy spirit can only do what it gets from the Son.....
this Athanasian creed says they are co-equals.

it is cute how you also claim Arius basically inspired Jehovah's witnesses and other small sects. dude..christianity was hijacked by rome
this idea you have that the catholic church was once okay and later not okay is absurd....all the polythiesm in catholicism is precisely because of the trinitarian doctrine
the only difference is the catholics are more theologically honest with it.
ie if Jesus is def 100% god then mary is the mother of god for sure.
I simply point out that the meaning ascribed to 'catholic' is not automatically the denomination that became known as Catholicism. As far as Arius is concerned, @TokiEl pointed out his view quite concisely.
 
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I simply point out that the meaning ascribed to 'catholic' is not automatically the denomination that became known as Catholicism. As far as Arius is concerned, @TokiEl pointed out his view quite concisely.
Athanasius
"God is 3, 3 are co-equals"

Arius
"The Son was created"

how difficult is it for someone with some basic common sense to say
"you're both wrong?"

Philo had a much better understanding of the logos, why did the christians change it?
 
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Yes he had no Roger Price to take him aside and tell him a few things...

Arius contradicts John 1, John 8, Isaiah 9, Micah 5 etc etc.

He must have been led astray by a lying spirit... poor sod.

So Arius contradicted the author a gospel?
But Athanasius contradicted Jesus.

Micah 5
He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.


Isaiah 9
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


So Jesus the Son, who calls God His Father, is also called 'everlasting Father'?
it's not like Jesus actually did have that name......and even if he didnt it doesnt make him God directly.
ie a name that pays homeage to THE God...
it's like having a name "The great God"
it doesnt mean the person is God, but the name testifies about God.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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So Arius contradicted the author a gospel?
But Athanasius contradicted Jesus.

Micah 5
He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the Lord,
in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God.


Isaiah 9
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


So Jesus the Son, who calls God His Father, is also called 'everlasting Father'?
it's not like Jesus actually did have that name......and even if he didnt it doesnt make him God directly.
ie a name that pays homeage to THE God...
it's like having a name "The great God"
it doesnt mean the person is God, but the name testifies about God.
I think you would find the information presented in the talks I posted up interesting. I know it's a time commitment but I'm not doing it just to be argumentative. There is only so much I can do with s smartphone and one finger on such a subject ;-)
 

JoChris

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weak, you didn't present Arius's view, only Athansius insisting his view is the correct view...

Whilst the Gospel clearly gives us a heirarchy where the Son can do absolutely zero without the Father...and the holy spirit can only do what it gets from the Son.....
this Athanasian creed says they are co-equals.

it is cute how you also claim Arius basically inspired Jehovah's witnesses and other small sects. dude..christianity was hijacked by rome
this idea you have that the catholic church was once okay and later not okay is absurd....all the polythiesm in catholicism is precisely because of the trinitarian doctrine
the only difference is the catholics are more theologically honest with it.
ie if Jesus is def 100% god then mary is the mother of god for sure.
There is a big difference between Mary being called the mother of God and mother of (the man) Jesus.

Mary was a mere woman (however greatly blessed). She called herself a sinner via saying God was her saviour Luke 1:46-47. That directly contradicts the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception, that she had a sinless nature. https://www.gotquestions.org/immaculate-conception.html

Timeline of RCC false doctrine developments: https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm
 
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There is a big difference between Mary being called the mother of God and mother of (the man) Jesus.

Mary was a mere woman (however greatly blessed). She called herself a sinner via saying God was her saviour Luke 1:46-47. That directly contradicts the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's immaculate conception, that she had a sinless nature. https://www.gotquestions.org/immaculate-conception.html

Timeline of RCC false doctrine developments: https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Roman Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm
But you believe Jesus is fully 100% God in the flesh
Therefore whoever gave birth to him has to be the mother of God fully...literally.
Stop being half assed with your theology.

The many contradictions are due to your own doctrine.
I believe in the same new testament ..no problems for me.
I dont believe Jesus is God...the logos reveals God's Immanence and In the mystical sense of personal perception of God, to know the Son is to know God via His Immanence..seperate from His Trancendent nature.
Why else did Jesus specifically talk about this inner light of the eye...ie the single eye is perception of the unity of God ie to see God in all things.
"To the pure all things are pure"
In Islam it's known as Ihsan and is the "highest level of faith"
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I didn't sleep all that well last night so I popped my audio Bible on timer and just lay there thinking and listening...

I had never listened to Psalm 45 before properly, but as I listened, I had to stop rewind and listen again...

I wonder if it is apparent why?

Psalms 45:1-17

The Glories of the Messiah and His Bride

My heart is overflowing with a good theme;
I recite my composition concerning the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 You are fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Your lips;
Therefore God has blessed You forever.
3 Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One,
With Your glory and Your majesty.
4 And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness;
And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things.
5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies;
The peoples fall under You.
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
8 All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia,
Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad.
9 Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.
10 Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
11 So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift;
The rich among the people will seek your favor.
13 The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace;
Her clothing is woven with gold.
14 She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors;
The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.
15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought;
They shall enter the King’s palace.
16 Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.
17 I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Titus 2:13

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Granville Sharp’s Rule
Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1

This information sheet is divided into two sections. The first is a brief, basic discussion of what is known as “Granville Sharp’s Rule.” This rule is very important in translating and understanding Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 (as well as other passages), and as these passages bear directly on the discussion of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, we feel Christians should be informed on the subject. The second section of this paper is a much more in-depth discussion of the same subject, providing references for those familiar with the Greek language and the translation of the New Testament.

@Unknown Warrior - this is worth knowing, as it is one that JWs dislike and misinterpret by claiming an awareness of Greek that is not in the actual language!

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/1991/01/01/granville-sharps-rule/
 
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Paalm 45 was not about Jesus Christ btw and it doesn't show Jesus as 'diety'.


More importantly, in my perspective, there are no contradictions ie a perfect explanation...
in yours, there are many. For example as i stated before, if Jesus is fully God, then Mary is most def the mother of God.


Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


Yes let us quote from the great Paul the apostle. In most epistles, Paul begins with these works.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

ie God our Father
and then 'lord Jesus Christ' (remember since psalm 110 proves lord is not Adonai but adoni, hence lord and not 'The Lord' (this type of theological dishonesty doesnt go unnoticed by some of us).

Then we go to Titus 2:13
that doesn't say Jesus is God...

look at Daniel 7
“As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.


then
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

in fact if you pay attention to the zion prophecies, when the messiah comes, God will also be a literal manifestation on earth as He was before ie Yahweh.
of course these type of visions are not literal but subjective and relate to our mind which gives 'form' to the information it receives from above.

this is from The Complete Jewish Bible

11 For God’s grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all people. 12 It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age; 13 while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.
they are not the same person.

2 Peter 1:1
Those who, through the righteousness of our God and of our Deliverer Yeshua the Messiah, have been given the same kind of trust as ours:


again this is like most of the epistles i talked of before

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


if you were truely monothiest from day one you would be defending the oneness of God and any instance where this line is seemingly 'blurred' you would seek a solution that is theologically amicable and doesnt leave roomf or contradiction. so my take is, as i have pointed out..the Logos reveals God's Immanence ie God's Mercy/Love with the whole of creation.
The Logos is kind of the middle ground between God's Transcendence and Immanence...it is effectively God's expression..hence it is called the 'Word of God' and also 'The Image of God'.


It's like this
we exist, entirely in God's awareness...it is really this awareness that enables our own sense of reality.
Yet this awareness is eternal, since God is eternal..
that means in reality, all things are eternal since they all exist with God in His awareness.
That metaphysical level where all things exist with God in His awareness eternally, is a state that can be reached/experienced.

When i read John 1:1, i see the author as someone who had attained that state
in that state they talk in the present tense since eternaity is above causation/beginning/end
hence Jesus said about this state, referring to his nature as the Logos
before Abraham was born, I AM.




Here's a really nice sufi muslim view on Jesus


The Untold Story of Jesus | Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

The Bible tells us the story of Jesus, upon him be peace, but it does not explain where he was between the ages of twelve and thirty. It does not say whether he remained in this world or went to the kingdom of heaven. Where was he? What happened during those eighteen years?

My grandchildren, if we don't know the complete history of Jesus, how can we understand him? How can we know who he truly is if we do not know his state? How can we know his glory?

My love you, my grandchildren. Let me explain something to you about those eighteen years.

Have you ever noticed how, in the morning when the sun is still low on the horizon, you can see long shadows stretching from the trees? Sometimes a shadow might extend a hundred and fifty feet. But when the sun is directly overhead at midday, you cannot see any shadow at all. Then later, when the sun is at low angle again, even your own shadow will be over a hundred feet long. But are you really that tall? No, you are only a few feet tall.

My grandchildren, we live in a world which casts shadows. People only know that something exists when they see its forms, a form that casts a shadow. If that form is missing, they cannot see anything. That is why the prophets came as forms which cast shadows. For our sakes they appeared to us in a way that we could understand, in a form which we could see with our eyes. But because their shadow forms are no longer here today, people say, 'The prophets are no longer here. They are dead and gone.'

Jesus did live in this world during those eighteen years, but he dwelt where the people of the world could not know him. He did not live within earth, fire, water, air, or ether. He did not live with the desire for women, earth, and gold. He made the world within him die. He surrendered to God and merged with God. His body was still in the world, but he was not in his body. The soul was with him, but the world was not. No one saw him during those eighteen years, for Jesus was with God, immersed in prayer.

His body was in the world, but he was not in the body, he was in the section of God.

The people who believed in the body, because they only had the eyes to see the world, did not see him during that time. Those who caried the body of five elements of earth, fire, water, air and ether could not see him. Those who believed in the differences between I and you could not see him. Those who were caught by arrogance, karma, illusion, and pride could not see him. Religions, races, and scriptures could not see him. None of these could see Jesus, because the world was not in him. He was here, but he was not visible to the eyes of the world.

During the time that Jesus was with our Primal Father, surrendered in Allahu, the light of God was at its zenith within him, just as the sun in midday is directly overhead. The shadow of his body was not to be seen. But then he came back to the world to continue his work. When he came out of that state, people said, "Jesus has returned," because they identified him with his body. They were looking for a physical form, not for the true Jesus.

For the next three years, Jesus spoke to the people, saying, "My father God says..." And it was then that people began to find fault with him. The Bible says that he was finally captured and crucified. But during the crucifixion that is spoke of Jesus' state was comparable to his state during those eighteen years.

My love you, my grandchildren. Do you understand? We can only explain something if we have understood its meaning. We are only able to speak about what we have seen after we have experienced it. And we can only know the truth when we have opened the eye of wisdom to understand it.

The knowledge you have now, my children, is limited by the intellect. The scriptures are also limited by this boundary. You can understand the words of the prophets and the lights of God only up to that level. Intellect cannot see beyond itself. Only when you transcend the intellect can you know what is beyond. Only with the four higher levels of judgment, subtle wisdom, analytic wisdom, and divine luminous wisdom can you progress.

God is beyond intellect. He is beyond scriptures, religion, race and caste. He is a treasure which cannot be described within the bounds of intellect, a perfectly pure treasure beyond all beginnings and endings.

My love you, my grandchildren. Just as the world did not see Jesus during those eighteen years, the world will not see us when we do not have the world within us. The state in which we forget this body and this world and dwell within God is true meditation and prayer. If you are in that state, you will not be aware of this body. Your body will be here, but it will be forgotten, as if it were dead. Your friends, relations, and possessions will all be forgotten. You will see only God. You will be living in His truth and in His body.

My love you, my grandchildren. What do you think people are searching for? They seek only a shadow that comes from darkness. But when a body is connected to God, it becomes light. When such a pure light or resplendence appears, it will be invisible to those whose eyes can perceive only shadows, the forms of darkness.

No one saw Jesus for eighteen years because they were looking for him in that way. The sign they held dear and searched for was not there. He had become light, and the darkness had gone away. The body had no more pull on him, and he disappeared within God. But after the work of those years was completed, the form emerged in the world again, and the people found what they were looking for. Then the rest of his history was written.

My loving grandchildren, even though you and I are in the world, we will not be in this body when we dwell in God. At that time we will be in light, and when that light comes to us, we will not cast any shadow. Only God's power will exist when we reach the state in which our prayers, worship, and our devotion, or ibadat, dwell within God. However, as long as we are not in that state, the body will exist. We will live in this world and not within Him, and we will be in darkness.

Histories can only be written about the time that one is in this world. They cannot be written about the time that on dwells in God. That is why the Bible does not speak about the life of Jesus during those eighteen years. And that is also why the true state of all the prophets has never really been known. The world searched for their shadows, their bodies. Without searching for their true state and without knowing who the prophets really were, people beat them and chased them and made them suffer. Such is the wonder of the ignorance of man.

My love you, my grandchildren. When light comes, this section of earth disappears. But when the section of earth and darkness comes, the light fades away.

Think about this. You must understand the prophets that God sent and know their true form. You must think about their words. You must think about everything with wisdom. In what way should you establish your connection with God? In what way should you conduct your life? Acquire God's qualities. Learn wisdom and the divine knowledge of 'ilm. Understand every section and then know. Amin.


- from
Come to the Secret Garden:
Sufi Tales of Wisdom
by M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen



this 'state' is the deepest level of Ihsan in islam, it relates to God's Immanence. When Jesus spoke of this state, he talked of 'returning to the Father' and 'I am in the Father and the Father is in me' and so forth because it is only in that state where aperson forgets the 'self' and only remains with the consciousness of God ie His love...Divine Love, a person can truely experience God in a universal sense...hence i call it 'the universal consciousness'.
it's from this state where, turning the other cheek and 'love God and love your neighbour' become relevant.
 

TokiEl

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But you believe Jesus is fully 100% God in the flesh
Therefore whoever gave birth to him has to be the mother of God fully...literally.
Mother of His biological body only.

You know the encasement on earth of the Logos or God.

I dont believe Jesus is God...the logos reveals God's Immanence and In the mystical sense of personal perception of God, to know the Son is to know God via His Immanence..seperate from His Trancendent nature.
You believe Jesus is the Logos... and so does John who furthermore states that the Logos is God.
 
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