Article: "Is the Messiah Waiting for Christians, Jews and Muslims to Join Together?"

[TempestOfTempo]

Yes, it does.


Literally most of the stuff about day to day life is in hadith. Because Prophet was an ideal human/servant of God, and being like him is, well, a good thing. Tiny things about health to the major things like signs of judgement day are in hadith.

Take Quran as a really great book, and the Prophet as its teacher. His hadith are the notes, being taken by us students. The book is amazing on its own, it has no comparison. But a great scripture + great teacher = heaven. This is why every scripture had a specific prophet, that TAUGHT that very scripture to his people, explaining every word in great detail.


This is why the Prophet told us to be vary. A hadith is authentic if it fulfills specific conditions.

-It must not be against the Quran.
-Historical references etc
-Supported by other hadith etc

Today we are at the point where we can easily google and check various scholars' point of view on every hadith. Most unauthentic hadith have already been labelled as such and scholars are continuously researching to make sure that we can eliminate as much of the fake ones as we can.

Thank you for the thorough reply!

 

[Forever Light]

Please don't post incorrect stuff that can potentially harm other believers

Not writing down hadith was only a rule the Prophet placed DURING the period Quran was still being revealed slowly. This was to prevent any other text or saying or any quote being incorrectly added into the Quran. This rule was lifted after Quran was completed and writing down any text would not have any effect on the Quran.

This explanation is discussed in quite some detail at the link that was shared. What they point out, is that the explanation fails to answer multiple contradictions once it is carefully pondered. I hope you will ponder and be able to see that my aim is not to harm any believer but to the contrary, the hope is to strive to help point out the truth which can prevent others from being harmed due to believing in traditions of men, rather than believing God.

It doesn't take half a brain to realize that the Shahada itself mentions that there is no God except Allah and the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w is his messenger.

The Shahada according to the Quran:
3:18. There is no God but He: that is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with Knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no God but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
(‘La ilaha illa Allah’ is the only shahada found in the Quran)

Why didn't God add thousands of other prophets in this?

The right question to ask, is if God added anyone to it, in His Quran?

Were they not messengers? Its obvious that they were messengers, only Muhammad s.a.w was added in the Shahada to make it obvious that it is HE who we have to follow, whose "ummah" we are. You literally can not follow the prophet if you don't know whats to be followed.

The Shahada or Proclamation of Faith from the Quran (3:18) is the same first commandment given to Moses:
Deuteronomy
5:6 I [am] the "I AM" thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage (slavery).
5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me.

Sura 21:25. Not an Apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no God but I [AM]; therefore worship and serve Me.

So,, the question you would need to ponder, if you really want to get to the Truth of it, is did God add the name Muhammad to the Shahada?
Is that what it says in the Quran? And if not, then who did... Peace be upon you.

(The Shia's also added the name Ali, as well.) - 39:45

 

[manama]

@TempestOfTempo some more context from Quran itself

“And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)”
[al-Hashr 59:7].

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him))”
[an-Nisa’ 4:59]

Not only this but one of the minor signs of the coming of the day of judgement is that the Muslims will claim to be following the Quran but they will be rejecting hadith and sunnah.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

This explanation is discussed in quite some detail at the link that was shared. What they point out, is that the explanation fails to answer multiple contradictions once it is carefully pondered. I hope you will ponder and be able to see that my aim is not to harm any believer but to the contrary, the hope is to strive to help point out the truth which can prevent others from being harmed due to believing in traditions of men, rather than believing God.

The Shahada according to the Quran:
3:18. There is no God but He: that is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with Knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no God but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
(‘La ilaha illa Allah’ is the only shahada found in the Quran)

The right question to ask, is if God added anyone to it, in His Quran?

The Shahada or Proclamation of Faith from the Quran (3:18) is the same first commandment given to Moses:
Deuteronomy
5:6 I [am] the "I AM" thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage (slavery).
5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me.

Sura 21:25. Not an Apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no God but I [AM]; therefore worship and serve Me.

So,, the question you would need to ponder, if you really want to get to the Truth of it, is did God add the name Muhammad to the Shahada?
Is that what it says in the Quran? And if not, then who did... Peace be upon you.

(The Shia's also added the name Ali, as well.) - 39:45

Ok I understand your point. It especially hit home with how the "Shiaa" have added Ali so for me the question becomes, did "Sunnis" truly add Mohammad's name into their "version" of the shahada? This is something very important to me and I hope we can come to some conclusive answers to the subject without tearing each other apart personally. I think this question is far too important to devolve into petty disagreement..... so Im hopeful for some constructive dialog regarding the issue here.......

 

[TempestOfTempo]

@TempestOfTempo some more context from Quran itself

“And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)”
[al-Hashr 59:7].

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him))”
[an-Nisa’ 4:59]

Not only this but one of the minor signs of the coming of the day of judgement is that the Muslims will claim to be following the Quran but they will be rejecting hadith and sunnah.

"Not only this but one of the minor signs of the coming of the day of judgement is that the Muslims will claim to be following the Quran but they will be rejecting hadith and sunnah."
This is an interesting contention. Is it proposed that the Muslims rejection of hadith and sunnah are righteous or misguided?

 

[Forever Light]

Ok I understand your point. It especially hit home with how the "Shiaa" have added Ali so for me the question becomes, did "Sunnis" truly add Mohammad's name into their "version" of the shahada? This is something very important to me and I hope we can come to some conclusive answers to the subject without tearing each other apart personally. I think this question is far too important to devolve into petty disagreement..... so Im hopeful for some constructive dialog regarding the issue here.......

First of all let me preface by saying that I'm by no means an expert on all that Sunnis and Shia (or others) believe. Have been learning a bit on forums and a while back watched a series on Islam. Secondly, agreed with your suggestion on not allowing it to devolve into petty disagreements.

Personally it was learned about the difference between how Sunnis and Shia say the shahada, from watching a short video that was seen a while back, in which it was shown to be one of the main points of contention/disagreement between Sunnis and Shias. So right off the bat, they have been set-up to disagree with one another based on this alone. But, of course there are other disagreements as well, such as on how to pray, etc. Where do the differences come from?

If one is simply going by the Quran, which both sides claim to be the scripture then is either of them correct about the "correct" shahada? If neither version (sunni or shia) of the shahada, which they both (presumably) claim that everyone has to say in order to be considered a "true muslim" is found in the Quran, then how can they be? If they claim that Quran is the scripture of Islam, shouldn't something as fundamental as the shahada just be directly found in the Quran and that be enough.

Is the difference (and therefore, the division - continuing to use both of them as an example) between the Sunnis and Shias, as it exists today, not based mostly, if not entirely - around them having accepted and then followed a path supported by different hadiths?

And if this is the case, does this not prove by itself that the hadiths are in wrong, since the Quran is completely against dividing up into sects?
Hope this doesn't offend anyone or is considered as being too blunt, but aren't the hadiths the source of the differences between them and what the divisions boil down to?

B.t.w. this is offered just as "food for thought" from this perspective and hoping it may contain useful points. In the end, what each person chooses to believe has to be up to the individual.

P.S. Below, in case interested, is someone else's perspective that was seen yesterday that was thought to be interesting (note, they also wrote a disclaimer at the end.):

Peace be upon you

Note: I have kept some words in their true form as a common name, not a proper name. Thus, one will notice that certain important words that are known to be capitalized, are not. For example, the deen is referred to as “islam,” as per the quran. However, “Islam” with a capital “I” is the cultural religion the sectarians have created.

Just as any other religion consists of sects and denominations, so-called Islam does as well. Before we can reach a logical conclusion, there are two questions we must ask: Why do sects exist within Islam? And what is the quran’s view on sects in the deen?

From unity to division

Original islam is islam in its only, truest form: united. The prophet Muhammad and his followers were united as one nation. As Muhammad brought down revelations, his followers would absorb it, gain wisdom and thus become purified (3:164). These were the steps taken to advance as a muslim. All was well, so what went wrong?

As commonly known, Muhammad’s death led to a dilemma in the muslim community, a dilemma that would lead to division in the deen and ultimately “Muslims” taking man’s word as divine guidance. The muslims no longer had access to Muhammad, and therefore thought a new leader was required. What they failed to realize is that they did have access to the prophet, through the quran. So why the need to follow man, when the quran has been sent down to judge? Put simply: human nature. A component of human nature is the necessity of some kind of physical object or being for mental security.

Thus, the united community split into separate parties, sects. One group followed Abu Bakr and the other followed Ali. The former would go on to be called Sunni for following the supposed Sunna of Muhammad. The latter would go on to be called Shia for following Shiat Ali (Party of Ali); Muhammad’s family or Ahl ul Bayt (People of the House). When we learn the root cause of sects within Islam, one cannot help but realize nowhere in this differentiation is God mentioned. Obviously, all muslims believe in the validity of the quran. The division begins when humans are added into the equation. The division in Islam is solely based on which humans to take as authorities and which manmade works to follow. This is simply a continuation and a reiteration of human nature previously mentioned.
With this division, muslims are leaping backward instead of stepping forward; they are going against the very nature of the quran and the deen.

What does the quran have to say?

One cannot help but be curious about the quran’s position in the midst of this sectarian mess. Indeed, the quran openly discourages, nay, disallows sects within the deen and perhaps even predicts the events after Muhammad’s death:

And they became sects for no reason but through rivalry among themselves, after the knowledge had come to them. Had it not been for a Word that has already gone forth from your Lord for an appointed term, all matters would have been decided among them. Indeed, the later generations who inherited the Scripture of the old still keep harboring doubts about it. (42:14)

Without a doubt, it is interesting how well this lines up with the situation that took place in the past and the situation that is taking place right now. This is a clear sign against upholding sects, which is tantamount to shirk (idolatry), as the quran makes clear:

Turn unto Him alone then, and be mindful of Him, and establish the Divine System and be not of the Mushrikeen (idolaters) who ascribe ‘partners’ to Him. Those who split up their religion becoming sects, each sect delighting in whatever beliefs they have.(30:31-32)

Notice how the second statement expands on the first statement regarding the idolaters. The implications are clear: those who become sects are idolaters; indeed God knows that the cause of division lies invariably within people following human authorities and man-made works as divine guidance. Let’s look at another verse:

And yet, when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the life to come, shrink with aversion. But, when others are mentioned besides Him, behold, they rejoice. (39:45)

We see how the above verse lines up with 30:31-32, this is no accident. A simple arranging of verses makes things very clear because each verse expands on the other. Here we see that those who split up into sects – the idolaters – rejoice/become delighted with their separate beliefs, regarding which human authorities to obey. (30:32) Similarly, those who reject their retribution in the afterlife also rejoice/become delighted when others are mentioned beside God (e.g. “…and Muhammad is His messenger” being required at the end of the shahada). From these verses alone, we learn that people who split up into sects (1) are idolaters at some point, (2) rejoice in their different beliefs regarding human authorities, (3) also rejoice when others are mentioned beside God and (4) do not believe in their coming retribution.

And one final verse in which the quran puts it bluntly:

Those who break the unity of their deen and become sects, you have nothing to do with them whatsoever. Indeed, their case will go to God and He will then tell them what they had been doing. (6:159)

Conclusion: From Division Back to Unity

Now that we have learned the components of sectarians and that the idea of sects is contradictory with the quran, how does one go about stopping this madness within himself/herself? As mentioned, splitting up into sects is essentially based on following humans and taking man’s word as divine. Thus, to stop this, we must cease to follow humans and everything that entails. We do this by following only God’s message; the same message all of the prophets and their followers received. One must do this by studying it, following it in actions, and as a result purifying the nafs (Soul/Self), advancing as a muslim, just as Muhammad and his followers did. With all this in mind, we can return to the original islam, united as one community. This is the essence of the deen, the original islam.

Disclaimer: This article is based on my understanding of reality and the quran as of september 15, 2007. All information should be verified by oneself before accepting.

https://godssystem.wordpress.com

 

[manama]

"Not only this but one of the minor signs of the coming of the day of judgement is that the Muslims will claim to be following the Quran but they will be rejecting hadith and sunnah."
This is an interesting contention. Is it proposed that the Muslims rejection of hadith and sunnah are righteous or misguided?

The signs of the end times are always supposed to be something that was unthinkable in the past, if the idea that the people will follow Quran but not following the Prophet was so unthinkable at prophet's time, it must be something wrong.

Not related but still an example, forever light says that if we do "so and so" stuff or "just follow the Quran" we can go back to the original religion of God, BUT if forever had looked up the hadiths, they would know that the prophet said that even though dividing into sects is haram, Islam near qiyamah would have 72-73 sects. So we can not go back, not until Isa a.s. is infront of us.

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w in his hadiths told us various prophecies, of coming times, he told us the situation of muslims, Palestine's occupation, Syria's destruction and alot more. Things we lived to witness ourselves, these signs of the end times. All of his end time prophecies have been coming true, without any exception. So, we can not even call these hadith wrong because time itself stands witness to it.

In Quran, Allah told us to follow him AND his messenger. We follow Allah by following Quran, how do we follow the prophet, if we take hadith and sunnah out of the equation?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

First of all let me preface by saying that I'm by no means an expert on all that Sunnis and Shia (or others) believe. Have been learning a bit on forums and a while back watched a series on Islam. Secondly, agreed with your suggestion on not allowing it to devolve into petty disagreements.

Personally it was learned about the difference between how Sunnis and Shia say the shahada, from watching a short video that was seen a while back, in which it was shown to be one of the main points of contention/disagreement between Sunnis and Shias. So right off the bat, they have been set-up to disagree with one another based on this alone. But, of course there are other disagreements as well, such as on how to pray, etc. Where do the differences come from?

If one is simply going by the Quran, which both sides claim to be the scripture then is either of them correct about the "correct" shahada? If neither version (sunni or shia) of the shahada, which they both (presumably) claim that everyone has to say in order to be considered a "true muslim" is found in the Quran, then how can they be? If they claim that Quran is the scripture of Islam, shouldn't something as fundamental as the shahada just be directly found in the Quran and that be enough.

Is the difference (and therefore, the division - continuing to use both of them as an example) between the Sunnis and Shias, as it exists today, not based mostly, if not entirely - around them having accepted and then followed a path supported by different hadiths?

And if this is the case, does this not prove by itself that the hadiths are in wrong, since the Quran is completely against dividing up into sects?
Hope this doesn't offend anyone or is considered as being too blunt, but aren't the hadiths the source of the differences between them and what the divisions boil down to?

B.t.w. this is offered just as "food for thought" from this perspective and hoping it may contain useful points. In the end, what each person chooses to believe has to be up to the individual.

P.S. Below, in case interested, is someone else's perspective that was seen yesterday that was thought to be interesting (note, they also wrote a disclaimer at the end.):

I really thank you for taking the time to address the issue with clarity and calm. I found these two quotes from the other resource you posted very powerful (as well as much of what you posted in your own words)......
"And yet, when God alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the life to come, shrink with aversion. But, when others are mentioned besides Him, behold, they rejoice."
I see that so often and it has become a real problem for me..... Muslims who speak about the prophet Muhammad in terms of being "perfect" and giving more weight to words he may or may-not have said (hadith) than they do the words of the Quran. And yes, its like many are adverse to speak on the glory and power of God almighty, but can go on and on about contested and unprovable contentions about Muhammad. My take on that is the word of God in the Quran is unwavering and unchanging.... there isnt wiggle room for them to insert their wicked cultural customs that were actually forbidden in Islam nor does it allow for them to twist Islamic doctrine into some sort of an excuse for their wicked behavior and nufts (desires). Thats just my personal brief take on the quote tho.

I am also very interested in the following quote "Those who break the unity of their deen and become sects, you have nothing to do with them whatsoever. Indeed, their case will go to God and He will then tell them what they had been doing." Since this directly from the Quran, there can be no doubt that both Sunni and Shia have strayed and deviated from the original, Islamic commandments of God as issued directly through both the Quran and Prophet Muhammad's own words. Am I correct in my observation? Im open to discussing it more!

 

[TempestOfTempo]

The signs of the end times are always supposed to be something that was unthinkable in the past, if the idea that the people will follow Quran but not following the Prophet was so unthinkable at prophet's time, it must be something wrong.

Not related but still an example, forever light says that if we do "so and so" stuff or "just follow the Quran" we can go back to the original religion of God, BUT if forever had looked up the hadiths, they would know that the prophet said that even though dividing into sects is haram, Islam near qiyamah would have 72-73 sects. So we can not go back, not until Isa a.s. is infront of us.

The Prophet Muhammad s.a.w in his hadiths told us various prophecies, of coming times, he told us the situation of muslims, Palestine's occupation, Syria's destruction and alot more. Things we lived to witness ourselves, these signs of the end times. All of his end time prophecies have been coming true, without any exception. So, we can not even call these hadith wrong because time itself stands witness to it.

In Quran, Allah told us to follow him AND his messenger. We follow Allah by following Quran, how do we follow the prophet, if we take hadith and sunnah out of the equation?

Thank you for this reply. I addressed some of this just now in my reply to Forever Light and since the three of us are the main players carrying this conversation and remaining respectful about it, feel free to reply to what I posted there and I will eagerly look for both of your replies as I am truly interested in this most important topic and I really appreciate sharing this thorough, thoughtful and civil dialog with you both.

 

[manama]

I am also very interested in the following quote "Those who break the unity of their deen and become sects, you have nothing to do with them whatsoever. Indeed, their case will go to God and He will then tell them what they had been doing." Since this directly from the Quran, there can be no doubt that both Sunni and Shia have strayed and deviated from the original, Islamic commandments of God as issued directly through both the Quran and Prophet Muhammad's own words. Am I correct in my observation? Im open to discussing it more!

Indeed, people dividing themselves into sects are committing a sin.

 

[Forever Light]

It also says in the New Testament of the Bible (just as it does in the Quran) that spitting up into sects (denominations) is wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Christ Jesus, that ye all speak the SAME thing, and [that] there be NO DIVISIONS among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Saying "let there be no divisions among you" means the same as "let there be no denominations among you".
Christianity however has done it in spades (dividing up into sects/denominations) and today there are literally thousands of them.