Another Perspective On Lgbtq

polymoog

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Because, as I said, it has nothing to do with brain chemistry or internal identity. There is no eye color dysphoria.
why cant there be a person who in their mind (their psyche feels that way) thinks that they have brown eyes when they have blue eyes? why shouldnt that be recognized?
 






sim hae

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There is no eye color dysphoria.
WRONG. There are probably about as many people in the world who feel they have the "wrong" eye color as those who feel they have the "wrong" sex.
How so? Well, eye color can change drastically over the course of one's life because of various reasons: mental trauma, eye treatments, being exposed to certain chemicals, etc. You just don't know we exist because no one has ever put a spotlight on us, we don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Because of severe trauma, my eyes turned from a deep dark green to a somewhat greenish yellow.
I'm not sure if it happened because of all the complications I suffered after a botched 2 in 1 surgery I got at 14 yo, or because I had to have that surgery without anaesthesia. I had the wonderful joy of finding out that anaesthesia of any kind doesn't work on me while I was on that operating table.
I've always had yellowish skin and back then I still had natural blond hair, so I looked like a complete freak with those yellow eyes. I couldn't bear to look in the mirror, especially in the morning.
After a few years they got a bit darker (Thank God), they're now a light olive color but they'll never be back to the color I've had for the first half of my life.
 






manama

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To your way of thinking... but to answer your question--

I'm asking if you think it is something well within their control? You must, if you call it a preference, I'd think. It's a yes or no question.
Do you know what preference means lol
 






manama

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Gender identity is defined as an inherent, personal, and deeply held sense of one's own identity as a woman or man (or nonbinary). Everyone's brain is telling them that they are a girl or guy... people feel comfortable with identifying as a woman or man because they are in tune with that gender identity, that's who they are and how they see themselves.

Responding with "no" doesn't really mean anything and it doesn't get rid of the things that transgender people go through. Everyone has a gender identity, everyone on this forum has a gender... all of us feel comfortable and happy with calling ourselves guys or girls.

There is an obvious and strong correlation between being born male and identifying as a man and being born female and identifying as a woman but that does not mean that variation does not occur... it does occur, trans and nonbinary people exist as well as intersex people.
No one's brain is telling them that. Thats western first world problem. Brain doesn't work that way, if anything its a disorder. The whole concept of "gender identity" is bs anyway.
Stop shoving intersex people in the same group as binary/non binary or whatever new trash keeps coming out of Tumblr. They are not the same, they are actually born with both the sexes, their brain isn't "telling" them an identity. I can't see anyone with half a brain believing in the concept of gender identity. You are religious on the other hand, you should know better.
 






mecca

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WRONG. There are probably about as many people in the world who feel they have the "wrong" eye color as those who feel they have the "wrong" sex.
How so? Well, eye color can change drastically over the course of one's life because of various reasons: mental trauma, eye treatments, being exposed to certain chemicals, etc. You just don't know we exist because no one has ever put a spotlight on us, we don't matter in the grand scheme of things.


Because of severe trauma, my eyes turned from a deep dark green to a somewhat greenish yellow.
I'm not sure if it happened because of all the complications I suffered after a botched 2 in 1 surgery I got at 14 yo, or because I had to have that surgery without anaesthesia. I had the wonderful joy of finding out that anaesthesia of any kind doesn't work on me while I was on that operating table.
I've always had yellowish skin and back then I still had natural blond hair, so I looked like a complete freak with those yellow eyes. I couldn't bear to look in the mirror, especially in the morning.
After a few years they got a bit darker (Thank God), they're now a light olive color but they'll never be back to the color I've had for the first half of my life.
Ok. I'm sorry that happened to you. I don't know if that is the exact same type of thing as trans people but I didn't know that eye color could change so drastically.
 






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mecca

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No one's brain is telling them that. Thats western first world problem.
Plenty of other "non-western" cultures had more than two gender categories. Some Native American cultures had/have the idea of people called two-spirits which is a similar idea to non-binary and transgender people. If a trans person was born in another country, they would still be trans. There are transgender people in every society, country, and culture... and obviously their brain is telling them that they're transgender, that's why they have gender dysphoria and a desire to transition.

Western culture is the one that is erasing all other ways of seeing/thinking about things. Western culture is the culture that's trying to enforce a gender binary, not broaden it... because other cultures have had ideas and representation for other genders as well as transgender people, but western culture replaced them and called them "incorrect" even though it was an accurate representation of those people's identities and allowed for natural diversity and difference to be expressed.
Stop shoving intersex people in the same group as binary/non binary or whatever
Intersex, transgender, and non-binary people all freely decide to interact with each other and equate their experiences because they have similar struggles and issues that they face... they are a part of the same spaces and communities. They themselves say that they have similar experiences. I'm not equating them or claiming that they are the exact same thing, I am simply pointing out obvious similarities and the fact that there is variation in gender and biological sex within the human species.
They are not the same, they are actually born with both the sexes, their brain isn't "telling" them an identity.
Intersex people can also be transgender or nonbinary as well as being intersex. Their biological sex is ambiguous but they still have a gender identity... even though their biology is not male or female, their brain still tells them if they are a man, a woman or non-binary. They still feel like something.

How do you know that they don't have a gender? If you just talked to some of them you would find out that many intersex people identify as men or women or non-binary... because regardless of their biological sex they still have an inherent sense of identity. That's one reason why it is wrong to surgically alter intersex babies and raise them as a certain gender... there is a high likelihood that you got their gender wrong.

Many intersex people have their sex and gender assigned at birth and a lot of the time that ends up with them having to transition into the actual gender they see themselves as, that means they are transgender. A cisgender intersex person is someone who's gender is non-binary because their biological sex is also non-binary... so their gender is in alignment with their biological sex, meaning they can be considered cisgender and not transgender.
 






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manama

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Plenty of other "non-western" cultures had more than two gender categories. Some Native American cultures had/have the idea of people called two-spirits which is a similar idea to non-binary and transgender people. If a trans person was born in another country, they would still be trans. There are transgender people in every society, country, and culture... and obviously their brain is telling them that they're transgender, that's why they have gender dysphoria and a desire to transition.

Western culture is the one that is erasing all other ways of seeing/thinking about things. Western culture is the culture that's trying to enforce a gender binary, not broaden it... because other cultures have had ideas and representation for other genders as well as transgender people, but western culture replaced them and called them "incorrect" even though it was an accurate representation of those people's identities and allowed for natural diversity and difference to be expressed.

Intersex, transgender, and non-binary people all freely decide to interact with each other and equate their experiences because they have similar struggles and issues that they face... they are a part of the same spaces and communities. They themselves say that they have similar experiences. I'm not equating them or claiming that they are the exact same thing, I am simply pointing out obvious similarities and the fact that there is variation in gender and biological sex within the human species.

Intersex people can also be transgender or nonbinary as well as being intersex. Their biological sex is ambiguous but they still have a gender identity... even though their biology is not male or female, their brain still tells them if they are a man, a woman or non-binary. They still feel like something.

How do you know that they don't have a gender? If you just talked to some of them you would find out that many intersex people identify as men or women or non-binary... because regardless of their biological sex they still have an inherent sense of identity. That's one reason why it is wrong to surgically alter intersex babies and raise them as a certain gender... there is a high likelihood that you got their gender wrong.

Many intersex people have their sex and gender assigned at birth and a lot of the time that ends up with them having to transition into the actual gender they see themselves as, that means they are transgender. A cisgender intersex person is someone who's gender is non-binary because their biological sex is also non-binary... so their gender is in alignment with their biological sex, meaning they can be considered cisgender and not transgender.
Because its a biological thing, not a mental one. If its mental, its a disorder. If i feel like im 15 years of age, that doesn't mean i can identify as 15 yo. Its the same with gender. If i feel like something that i am NOT, its a disorder. The concept of gender identity is a hoax. If someone was ACTUALLY born with a female brain in a male body or the other way around, they wouldn't be able to function, wouldn't even hit puberty if that is a thing.

And why only gender? Is that because we learn though abrahamic faiths that people changing their gender was going to be a thing that would open doors to alot of evil? because its people changing what God made, because its shirk? But even if its being looked at by an atheist's perspective, why only gender? Why not ages too if i feel like a different age, or a different race, or a different specie all together.
 






elsbet

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Its the same with gender. If i feel like something that i am NOT, its a disorder. The concept of gender identity is a hoax. If someone was ACTUALLY born with a female brain in a male body or the other way around, they wouldn't be able to function, wouldn't even hit puberty if that is a thing.

And why only gender? Is that because we learn though abrahamic faiths that people changing their gender was going to be a thing that would open doors to alot of evil? because its people changing what God made, because its shirk? But even if its being looked at by an atheist's perspective, why only gender? Why not ages too if i feel like a different age, or a different race, or a different specie all together.
Of course it is a disorder-- that is how spiritual bondage manifests itself. To believe as you do, that these people are being "bad" simply for the sake of it is just cruel. Do you also believe that overeaters/ sugar-addicts and likewise, ADD kids, are just undisciplined?

The issue is the acceptance of these things as "normal" so people never get healed-- that is the point. They're offered a slogan 'big is beautiful!' instead. ADD kids arent quite so lucky of course-- they are medicated within an inch of their lives. Children on pharmaceutical grade amphetamine is not a solution.

I don't agree with @mecca but what she believes on this subject does not appear to come from an approval of shirk-- her defensive stance looks much closer to Mercy, than anything else. I'm sure she'll waste no time correcting me if I'm wrong, but it should be noted that the Merciful outrank the Accuser, every time.

Do you know what preference means
Can't even give a straight answer. :D That's so shady.
 






manama

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Can't even give a straight answer. :D That's so shady.
No its called using a brain, preferences are wired into one throughout their life experiences. Choice is just on-the-spot thing,

I'm sure she'll waste no time correcting me if I'm wrong, but it should be noted that the Merciful outrank the Accuser, every time.
What are you even talking about? I'm just saying that gender identity isn't a thing. I, personally, do not care what someone wants to do with themselves, their bodies or whatever as long as it doesn't effect me. Stop digging too deep into it, there is nothing there.
 






mecca

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And why only gender? Is that because we learn though abrahamic faiths that people changing their gender was going to be a thing that would open doors to alot of evil? because its people changing what God made, because its shirk?
Transgender people aren't evil or against God just for being themselves.
gender identity isn't a thing.
How? What do you call yourself if not a woman? Woman is a gender identity. Everyone has one.
 






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manama

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How? What do you call yourself if not a woman? Woman is a gender identity. Everyone has one.
Because i was born female? Even if i call myself a man, it wouldn't change the fact that I'm a woman. "Woman" isn't a gender identity, its just the english word for grown up females. Calling yourself something doesn't mean you'd become that thing. Facts are more important than "feelings".

Transgender people aren't evil or against God just for being themselves.
You seriously need to read into the very religion you are following. "Intersex" people are the ones who aren't sinning by being either gender, they are born like that, its their right.
Us non-intersex people can't do that, not only is it absolutely stupid, it is also the epitome of shirk.
 






peridot

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Very sorry about your eye, but your comment is making a very interesting argument.

Until your accident, your eyes had genes for green, as least as far as anyone could see.
Biology class is always quick to point out that genes for color can be controlled by more than one gene.
But your darker green eyes wasn't something you felt; it's what color they were period. Even if you felt your eyes should have been blue, or dark red, or whatever, they appear on your face as green.

It was after an injury that they changed. You could have still felt your eyes should have been blue, dark red with white polka dots, or even the original green color, but at that time your eyes were expressing another color, most likely due to some chemical changes related to your trauma.

But if now your eyes are changing back to closer to its original color, that's also an indication that your eyes were not genetically coded for this this temporary yellow/green color, nor did the trauma ultimately change the genes.

So summarizing: your eyes are color A, change to B due to outside forces, and appear to be changing back to A, or something close to eye. Almost like your eyes bruised for awhile, and are now healing. The bruising however is NOT original; it was the effect of something else. No amount of your personal feeling on the matter changed your eyes. Even if you had gotten colored contact lenses, or inserted dye into your eyes, at best you could have affected a temporary change, but as long as your genes were healthy and active, they would change your eye color back. (this also happens with hair color and baby's eyes -though not necessarily from injury - sometimes as well).

WRONG. There are probably about as many people in the world who feel they have the "wrong" eye color as those who feel they have the "wrong" sex.
How so? Well, eye color can change drastically over the course of one's life because of various reasons: mental trauma, eye treatments, being exposed to certain chemicals, etc. You just don't know we exist because no one has ever put a spotlight on us, we don't matter in the grand scheme of things.


Because of severe trauma, my eyes turned from a deep dark green to a somewhat greenish yellow.
I'm not sure if it happened because of all the complications I suffered after a botched 2 in 1 surgery I got at 14 yo, or because I had to have that surgery without anaesthesia. I had the wonderful joy of finding out that anaesthesia of any kind doesn't work on me while I was on that operating table.
I've always had yellowish skin and back then I still had natural blond hair, so I looked like a complete freak with those yellow eyes. I couldn't bear to look in the mirror, especially in the morning.
After a few years they got a bit darker (Thank God), they're now a light olive color but they'll never be back to the color I've had for the first half of my life.
 






sim hae

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Ok. I'm sorry that happened to you. I don't know if that is the exact same type of thing as trans people but I didn't know that eye color could change so drastically.


Until trans people put a monopoly on dysphoria, it just meant:
a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. A person suffering from dysphoria will feel that "Things aren't the way they are supposed to be."
The eyes are the first things you see when you look in the mirror (not one's genitals), naturally it's going to result in mental discomfort to look and not see yourself (especially with that freaky color), but what truly affected my life was the fact that extremely light eyes are ironically, incompatible with light. Those yellow eyes took my previous photophobia, to levels I didn't think were possible. I used to get physically sick and have terrible migraines after making the trip to and from school (despite wearing sunglasses on the way there). I had to center my life around the dark, live my life when everyone else was away in dream land.

For some reason, even though it turns our lives upside down, most doctors couldn't care less about this issue despite there being many people who develop yellow or yellowish eyes, usually as a consequence of certain diseases.
I wonder why...
 






sim hae

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But if now your eyes are changing back to closer to its original color, that's also an indication that your eyes were not genetically coded for this this temporary yellow/green color, nor did the trauma ultimately change the genes.

So summarizing: your eyes are color A, change to B due to outside forces, and appear to be changing back to A, or something close to eye. Almost like your eyes bruised for awhile, and are now healing. The bruising however is NOT original; it was the effect of something else. No amount of your personal feeling on the matter changed your eyes. Even if you had gotten colored contact lenses, or inserted dye into your eyes, at best you could have affected a temporary change, but as long as your genes were healthy and active, they would change your eye color back. (this also happens with hair color and baby's eyes -though not necessarily from injury - sometimes as well).

I thought similarly to you after they changed to light olive, I had hoped they'll eventually go back to forest green, but unfortunately these last couple of years they developed an amber center :(

Unlike my changing eyes, people who use certain eye drops/ointments (like Xalatan or Lumigan) suffer only one change, but permanent, usually from blue or green to brown.
 






Karlysymon

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Agree, except for the Sexuality is a choice part-- I'm not a fan of the 'born that way' camp, but I don't believe it's a choice in the same way that I choose Colombian or breakfast blend in the morning.

Seems more like they're made to be that way, whether through abuse or hormones as detailed above. Even preference doesn't really cover it.. its stronger than that . Compulsion may be more appropriate... covers all the bases: mental, physical and spiritual.
We are all exposed to something prenatal. Meth babies, those whose
mums drank or smoked throughout their pregnancies, violent fathers:
this serial killer
was born with an injured skull as a result of a
beating his mother took from his father while she was pregnant,
etc
Why is everyone else required to overcome their predisposition/molded
taste since the womb but when it comes to sexuality, it becomes a 'hands-off ' case? Why should it be okay to stage an intervention for a meth baby (now adult) but its not okay for a gay person, whose
homosexuality is as a result of a slew of endocrine disruptors since conception?

Obviously someone will say that alcoholism etc are self-destructive
behaviours and homosexuality isn't. As i see it, its not fair to criminalize or expect people to over come but when it comes to other predispositions, we are required to 'just let it be'. The serial killer should able to argue that he was 'born that way' but as is always the case, death row awaits them.
 






mecca

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Until trans people put a monopoly on dysphoria
I don't think they have a monopoly on it... they experience a specific type of dysphoria relating to their gender and body that is caused by hormonal factors. Dysphoria is still a medical term that is used in other areas outside of just gender dysphoria, there are different types.
For some reason, even though it turns our lives upside down, most doctors couldn't care less about this issue despite there being many people who develop yellow or yellowish eyes, usually as a consequence of certain diseases.
I wonder why...
I don't know but raising awareness about the issue can probably help people to care and take it seriously. I had never heard about it until you told me.
 






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elsbet

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We are all exposed to something prenatal. Meth babies, those whose
mums drank or smoked throughout their pregnancies, violent fathers:
this serial killer
was born with an injured skull as a result of a
beating his mother took from his father while she was pregnant,
etc
Why is everyone else required to overcome their predisposition/molded
taste since the womb but when it comes to sexuality, it becomes a 'hands-off ' case? Why should it be okay to stage an intervention for a meth baby (now adult) but its not okay for a gay person, whose
homosexuality is as a result of a slew of endocrine disruptors since conception?

Obviously someone will say that alcoholism etc are self-destructive
behaviours and homosexuality isn't. As i see it, its not fair to criminalize or expect people to over come but when it comes to other predispositions, we are required to 'just let it be'. The serial killer should able to argue that he was 'born that way' but as is always the case, death row awaits them.
What the hell, I dont disagree with you. :D

But this is a good post... why aren't alcoholics accepted as Born that Way?

Drug addicts in Europe were, at one time.. clean heroin on the dole. :)

In Finland, they do care for alcoholic brethren.. just how it is, but I digress. Good point, Karly.
 






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