Another Perspective On Lgbtq

mecca

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but if the entire species were trans, we would all be gone in one generation.
That's why our entire species is not trans, I guess...
They are a small minority and it's not really possible for them to exceed the cisgender population, it's an uncommon variation.

And technically, even if everyone in our entire species had a gender incongruence, that still would not prevent people from reproducing.
is it normal to be born and desire to change ones biological sex, therefore preventing the possibiility of reproduction?
It's normal for the people who turn out to be transgender. I don't think reproduction is all that there is in life or the only goal.
disagree 100%
I wouldn't say it's a matter of opinion. It's proven that gender affirmation is beneficial and actively denying their gender causes harm.
(but fine for an individual to go for trans support groups. that should tell you something.
A trans support group isn't conversion therapy, they aren't trying to turn them into cisgender people and it's not really possible to do that.
 






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B_JMNN

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Ok...

So, basically all the arguments are about is whether its ok for a child/teen to make the life altering decision of surgery into the opposite gender?

For one, I don't care what anyone does to their body, its yours and I have mine. But if we're a society that is so "Won't anyone think of the children." Shouldn't we let them know how life altering that decision is? No kid needs that stress.

Puberty blockers seems wrong. It's not letting the natural biological process of the body take place.

I'm for transgendered people being whomever they want to be, but with all these age limits for things that are not as life altering: Having to be 25 to rent a car, 21 to buy drinks/smoke/enter a club, 18 to buy cigarettes because teens aren't mature yet. Shouldn't transitioning, a major major life altering decision, also have a set age?
 






mecca

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So, basically all the arguments are about is whether its ok for a child/teen to make the life altering decision of surgery into the opposite gender?
Actually, children are not allowed to have any sort of surgical transition. You have to be an adult, 18 years or older.
Shouldn't transitioning, a major major life altering decision, also have a set age?
Social transitioning doesn't... people can decide to go by a different name and pronouns at any age. But medical transitions have age requirements and guidelines and also diagnostic requirements.
 






polymoog

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That's why our entire species is not trans, I guess...
They are a small minority and it's not really possible for them to exceed the cisgender population, it's an uncommon variation.
if this very, very small minority (if we go with those who have not been warped by society, abuse, etc.) were normal, we would cease to exist. thats not a natural pathway of existence.
transgender is a disorder. being lefty is a variation.


It's normal for the people who turn out to be transgender. I don't think reproduction is all that there is in life or the only goal.
your last statement has merit, but from a evolutionary point of view, without reproduction, mankind is erased from existence. [biologically speaking, all we are is selfish DNA. theres the consciousness dimension, but thats a different topic.] keep in mind, this is far different than someone who is celibate-- who chooses not to reproduce. trans people cannot biologically reproduce due to their psychology.


A trans support group isn't conversion therapy, they aren't trying to turn them into cisgender people and it's not really possible to do that.
cant have it both ways. either allow support groups (trans- affirmation therapy, essentially) AND an individual to get conversion therapy if he/she wishes, or allow neither.
yes, its entirely possible. look into it. https://www.henrymakow.com/2018/06/Excuse-Me-Gay-is-Not-Good .html
 






B_JMNN

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Actually, children are not allowed to have any sort of surgical transition. You have to be an adult, 18 years or older.

Social transitioning doesn't... people can decide to go by a different name and pronouns at any age. But medical transitions have age requirements and guidelines and also diagnostic requirements.
But, are Puberty Blockers helping that transition by letting a teens natural process take place? Therefore already, in the teens mind, has made that decision.

I'm trying to understand their views as well. My mindset is, this is whom I was born as. As the creator wanted me to be in this time of life. Also, if you believe in reincarnation, transgendered people could be people reborn as the opposite gender from their past life, their soul remembers that aspect of it and has a struggle in the current life.
 






mecca

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Puberty blockers seems wrong. It's not letting the natural biological process of the body take place.
If a child is transgender, puberty can be one of the most traumatizing things for them to go through. Some of them take puberty blockers so they can have more time to grow up and decide what they want to do without having their body change fully into the gender that they are not in tune with. Puberty blockers are only given to adolescents if they need them (and can afford them) and they simply pause puberty so it can be resumed at a later date.
 






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B_JMNN

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If a child is transgender, puberty can be one of the most traumatizing things for them to go through. Some of them take puberty blockers so they can have more time to grow up and decide what they want to do without having their body change fully into the gender that they are not in tune with. Puberty blockers are only given to adolescents if they need them and they simply pause puberty so it can be resumed at a later date.

Thats where I have a problem, why should they have more time to "grow up"? Its inhibiting that teens natural growth, which basically is gonna happen anyways.

So the one who does decide to use blockers and transition at the right age. Do they continue to use blockers? Do they take estrogen/testoterone to simulate the opposite sex's puberty?

In all reality a trans person is still going to biologically be the gender they were born. Unless you can somehow create a uterus, prostate, adams apple, the organs that define a male and female.
 






mecca

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Thats where I have a problem, why should they have more time to "grow up"? Its inhibiting that teens natural growth, which basically is gonna happen anyways.
When I said they have more time to grow up, I did not mean that they remain perpetually young. I meant that they have more time to reflect on their transgender identity without having their body fully change through puberty.

Their growth isn't inhibited on puberty blockers, they are still aging and growing... but the blockers are stopping sex hormones from being produced for a slightly longer time. Puberty can be a very negative experience for transgender people because it causes a lot of gender dysphoria for them. If they are able to pause it, they can get to an age where they have the ability to decide to start a smooth transition into the other gender. Their puberty will basically be the puberty of the gender that they actually identify as. If they did not have the blockers, they would not be able to decide, their body will have already gone in the direction that they didn't want it to go and it would be harder for them to transition and they would experience a lot more dysphoria.
Do they continue to use blockers? Do they take estrogen/testoterone to simulate the opposite sex's puberty?
They stop taking blockers and they can decide to start taking hormone therapy.
a trans person is still going to biologically be the gender they were born. Unless you can somehow create a uterus, prostate, adams apple, the organs that define a male and female.
Their biological sex doesn't change but their body will match their gender and they can live their lives as a transman or transwoman. And by the way, hormones create pronounced adams apples.
 






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mecca

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if this very, very small minority were normal, we would cease to exist.
Well, they already are a normal aspect of humanity... But if by normal you mean "statistical majority" that is still false because people can still decide to reproduce despite having a gender incongruence. Even if everyone was transgender, we could still continue our species. But transgender people aren't and will never be a statistical majority anyway so it's kind of pointless to discuss this.
transgender is a disorder. being lefty is a variation.
No, it's a product of biological variation. Technically, a lot of disorders are as well, but being transgender is not a disorder.
trans people cannot biologically reproduce due to their psychology.
Well, that's not true. There are transgender people who have children before they transition. Or their transition does not affect their reproductive capability and they go on to have children. Or they freeze their eggs/sperm so they can have children after they lose their fertility.
your last statement has merit, but from a evolutionary point of view, without reproduction, mankind is erased from existence.
Yes, I understand... but transgender people can reproduce. And not every variation in a species directly relates to reproduction. Evolution developed a system of sex determination through hormone levels in the womb... most people's mental and physical sex turn out aligned but sometimes different things happen that create an uncommon outcome.
 






Kung Fu

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Mecca you remind a lot of Flix on the old boards. I believe you're lying about a lot of things you say about yourself such as being a Muslim.
 






mecca

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Mecca you remind a lot of Flix on the old boards. I believe you're lying about a lot of things you say about yourself such as being a Muslim.
I don't know who that is but you can believe whatever you want buddy. I am a Muslim and I haven't lied about anything.
 






polymoog

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moog: transgender is a disorder. being lefty is a variation.
No, it's a product of biological variation. Technically, a lot of disorders are as well, but being transgender is not a disorder.
because? what sets gender dysphoria apart from other mental disorders, like chronic anxiety? how about a sociopath who was born that way?
 






mecca

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because? what sets gender dysphoria apart from other mental disorders, like chronic anxiety? how about a sociopath who was born that way?
Gender dysphoria is classified as a disorder because it causes extreme distress... and the treatment for it is some form of transitioning. But being gender non-conforming or transgender or having a gender incongruence is not a disorder. It may be somewhat atypical but there's nothing wrong with them.
 






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polymoog

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I'll leave this research article here if anyone's interested in reading it. I thought it was informative:

Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports
- Lisa Littman
always a class act, orwell.

however...
the problem is that the DSM and other medical sourcebooks had transgenderism and other issues like that listed as mental disorders. recently, theyve retracted it. i will argue that it was due to societal pressure from cultural marxists/PC pushers and the left that caused the change in attitude. mecca and others will argue that medical science simply became more informed.
i suppose i could dig up scientific reports backing my claims and left leaning scientists will have papers available expressing the contrary.
 






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Orwell's mentor

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always a class act, orwell.

however...
the problem is that the DSM and other medical sourcebooks had transgenderism and other issues like that listed as mental disorders. recently, theyve retracted it. i will argue that it was due to societal pressure from cultural marxists/PC pushers, and the left that caused the change in attitude. mecca and others will argue that medical science simply became more informed.
i suppose i could dig up scientific reports backing my claims and left leaning scientists will have papers available expressing the contrary.
Agreed. That said I did find it interesting the findings indicate that social pressure and media is said to influence their decision, much like anorexia did back in the day when I was growing up. I know anyone can attest to the challenges to adolescence. I was just taken aback that many of clinicians didn’t really research the cause of the (mental) stress in their lives because this wasn't an issue in my generation (i.e. "rapid onset"), but peer pressure and media was.
 






mecca

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I'll leave this research article here if anyone's interested in reading it. I thought it was informative:
Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports
That study used a biased sample by only talking to people on anti-trans forums. And they decided to only gather data about the parent's perception of their child's behavior but they did not ask any of the transgender teens what their actual experiences were which doesn't really make sense. If they are claiming to study transgender individuals then they should be gathering information from those people. The parents truly have no clue how long their children held in their feelings before telling their parents. To the parents it can seem sudden and surprising but to the teen, it was a progressive realization. All this study tells us is what a small group of parents think about their transgender children, it doesn't really show anything else.
 






Orwell's mentor

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That study used a biased sample by only talking to people on anti-trans forums. And they decided to only gather data about the parent's perception of their child's behavior but they did not ask any of the transgender teens what their actual experiences were which doesn't really make sense. If they are claiming to study transgender individuals then they should be gathering information from those people. The parents truly have no clue how long their children held in their feelings before telling their parents. To the parents it can seem sudden and surprising but to the teen, it was a progressive realization. All this study tells us is what a small group of parents think about their transgender children, it doesn't really show anything else.
These are the people who participated in the study:

Participants

During the recruitment period, 256 parents completed online surveys that met the study criteria. The sample of parents included more women (91.7%) than men (8.3%) and participants were predominantly between the ages of 45 and 60 (66.1%) (Table 1). Most respondents were White (91.4%), non-Hispanic (99.2%), and lived in the United States (71.7%). Most respondents had a Bachelor’s degree (37.8%) or graduate degree (33.1%). The adolescents and young adults (AYAs) described by their parents were predominantly female sex at birth (82.8%) with an average current age of 16.4 years (range, 11–27 years). See Table 2.

Therefore, the next rhetorical question would be is how many is sufficient, and if the parents were pro-trans, would that impact the decision?
Asking children and adolescents about their feelings is relative as they can feel many things when they’re growing. Heck! At one time, I thought I was going to marry Martin Fry of ABC in my teen years, and no one could tell me differently!!! Children and adolescent teens feel things for a variety of reasons but that doesn't mean it's so. They need parental guidance to steer them on a healthy path and help them make the best decisions to be a healthy adult. Changing one’s sex at that age is a LIFETIME decision when there’s no room to turn back. If they “feel” the opposite sex during puberty, they’ll feel it after puberty and then, they should receive the assistance they need from medically sound professionals.
 






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mecca

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Therefore, the next rhetorical question would be is how many is sufficient, and if the parents were pro-trans, would that impact the decision?
Them being anti-trans and gathering together on anti-trans forums is an obvious bias that impacts the study.
These are the people who participated in the study
The study did not ask the teens anything about how they experienced gender dysphoria... the study can't accurately determine something about transgender people by just asking their parents' opinion. The parents can't possibly know what their child is thinking. Like I said, all the study tells us is what a few parents think about their child... it doesn't prove anything about what's really going on in the young adult's mind. And it doesn't provide any information about how their gender dysphoria arose.
 






Orwell's mentor

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Them being anti-trans is an obvious bias that impacts the study.

The study did not ask the teens anything about how they experienced gender dysphoria... the study can't accurately determine something about transgender people by just asking their parents. The parents can't possibly know what their child is thinking. Like I said, all the study tells us is what a few parents think about their child... it doesn't prove anything about what's really going on in the young adult's mind. And it doesn't provide any information about how their gender dysphoria arose.
That's fine, Mecca. I'm really not interested in debating this topic as I see how passionate you are about it. I just posted the study if anyone's interested in reading it.
 






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