Angels

Karlysymon

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I'm not sure if angels are immortal or not. I believe they're mortal but have a life span that spans from the time they were created until Judgement Day where even they will face death and then be resurrected.

Karly, all angels are good and all angels were created to serve/worship the Most High. They all have tasks and they can range from a whole lot of things. The universe is a big place ;)

Remember when I said there's a veil between us and the jinn and that they can't physically speaking do anything to us so I don't know how a jinn-human orgy would be possible.

Possession is very rare and even then you have to take it with a grain of salt because people make up a lot of things.
Why would angels have to die and be resurrected? They are good and incapable of sinning. In Christianity, judgement and death await fallen angels. There's no prospect of a resurrection (Universal reconciliation).

As i have come to understand, angels and jinn are different entities in Islam,. So my question about duties/roles wasn't about angels but good jinn. What purpose do they serve because the angels do the recording, not good jinn? I guess, as you said, the universe is a big place and they must have some sort of employment.

Are there any descriptions on how they are actually created. My belief is, God is hands-on in creating higher intelligences. Everything else in our universe was *spoken* into existence, except man (formed by hand) and angels. and that translates into importance.

All this talk about sin and that they didn't know what sin was but committed sin is confusing, contradictory, and doesn't make sense so I'm not going to be carrying on this part of the discussion any longer. Thanks for the discussion regardless. I enjoyed the rest, however.
No problem at all. And thanks aswell.
 

Karlysymon

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I'm not implying that you don't know the material-- hope that wasn't your perception. :)

I also enjoyed Kent Hovind's lectures on antediluvian times-- our bones were made of sturdier stuff, and the oxygen was just amazing. Makes sense if people were living well over 500 years. The way the bible presents Genesis 6:4 (there were giants in the earth in those days)-- seems to me that they are an anomaly... the heroes, or men of renown-- not the norm. My opinion of course.. there are others.

The fallen ones were in the earth
in those days, and even afterwards
when sons of God come in unto
daughters of men,
and they have borne to them --
they [are] the heroes, who, from of old,
[are] the men of name. Gen. 6:4


Nephilim, Strong's.. for 'fallen'

I didn't mean to emphasize the book of Enoch, though it presents some very interesting things, and I think it's more than noteworthy.



... and also after.
Indeed. Noah was pure in his generations, but it's doubtful that his son's wives were. That would explain the giants' existence, post-flood.. but I'm not sure how that figures in with the Sethite theory. Maybe you could elaborate?
No, not all. Sorry if it came across that way. And you are right that Gen 6:4 *seems* to heavily lean towards angels. The problem is that theory raises more questions than it can answer. And as i mentioned to Kung Fu earlier, if the fallen angels could have offspring with humans, its only logical that they can procreate with their fellow angels. Except, it contradicts Christ's words about angels entering into matrimony. Iam sure we both agree that after their expulsion, God didn't take away their endowments, thus both fallen and unfallen can procreate. So, the theory demands of me to believe that angel Gabriel can have kids. Which then makes me wonder if my guardian angel has his own (angelic) family....so he sure must spend alot of time away from them because he lives to protect me and record my deeds. :D

I can't fully account for the Rephaites but i have a theory.
We are all Sethites because Noah descended from him. Could his daughters-in-law have descended from Nephilim/Cain's line? Maybe. But i choose to lean otherwise. Here's why:
It seems Noah wasn't planning on having any kids, given the prevailing decadence. Everyone else in Seth's line had kids much earlier. We both agree he had 120yrs to preach the 'end time' message and build the ark, and yet, he had Shem at age 500,( Gen 5:32) a century before the flood. The flood came when he was 600yo. (vs 7:11). So i highly doubt he would have let his sons marry unbelievers or those with a corrupted bloodline. Iam sure God would weigh on the matter of choosing life-mates since those 3 couples would re-populate the earth.

I think the Rephaites aren't so much of an anomaly but an ebb and flow in genetics. Using age as an example, God said he would reduce man's lifespan to 120, which he did and yet Abraham (175yo) outlived his grandfather (119yrs) and Isaac outlived them both (180yrs). So, the theory of degeneration, in an atmosphere of reduced oxygen, somehow, some people end(ed) up being of great stature. Shaquille O'neal is 7'1, just less 2ft of Goliath (over 9ft)


http://genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/giants/

Also, King Saul seemed to be in that range 7ft-10ft
And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly:and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people. 1 Sam 9:2

Interestingly, both he and Goliath aren't called Rephaites. So, maybe Rephaites were those over 12ft?
 

Kung Fu

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Why would angels have to die and be resurrected? They are good and incapable of sinning. In Christianity, judgement and death await fallen angels. There's no prospect of a resurrection (Universal reconciliation).
Because only the Most High can live forever. Nothing we know of is immortal except for the Most High thus why we say He has no beginning and He has no end. Showing humans that angels will even die and then be resurrected will show the disbelievers how wrong they were especially the ones that worship and or worshiped angels.

As i have come to understand, angels and jinn are different entities in Islam,. So my question about duties/roles wasn't about angels but good jinn. What purpose do they serve because the angels do the recording, not good jinn? I guess, as you said, the universe is a big place and they must have some sort of employment.
Apologies. I thought you were referring to angels. The jinn are not like the angels. The jinn are similar to the humans in that they are a creation with free will and have the capacity to obey or disobey (this life is nothing but a test for both humans and jinns). They will die and be resurrected to be judged on their belief, actions, and works just like the humans.

Are there any descriptions on how they are actually created. My belief is, God is hands-on in creating higher intelligences. Everything else in our universe was *spoken* into existence, except man (formed by hand) and angels. and that translates into importance.
All I know is that jinn are made from smokeless fire and anything else would just be conjecture on my part.

Do you believe the Most High literally used "hands" to form Adam(pbuh) if so that just seems a little funny to me because the Most High just says "be" and it is.
 
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Will do. I'm familiar with the more popular ones such as the one about the prophet(pbuh) in relation to Solomon(pbuh).

Thanks for the links brother.
my mind is so blank right now but isn't there a story somewhere of 2 angels (not harut and marut but a different story) who were judging the weakness of men and asked Allah to make them experience life on earth as men. They came down to earth...and when they felt lust, they could not control it and gave in.
Personally i think this story is also a mythos but it's possibly a story that's a sort of muslim copy of the story of the fallen angels in the OT who came and had sex with women, produced giants etc.
 

Kung Fu

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my mind is so blank right now but isn't there a story somewhere of 2 angels (not harut and marut but a different story) who were judging the weakness of men and asked Allah to make them experience life on earth as men. They came down to earth...and when they felt lust, they could not control it and gave in.
Personally i think this story is also a mythos but it's possibly a story that's a sort of muslim copy of the story of the fallen angels in the OT who came and had sex with women, produced giants etc.
I think that is the story of Harut and Marut and then as a form of punishment they were to stay on Earth and teach people magic but as a test to the people at the time to see if they could stay away from it. I believe the story to be a fabrication and not very sound at all as some scholars have pointed out.

The Quran simply tells two angels named, Harut and Marut came down and taught people magic as a test. Everything else about them turning into humans and then committing sin and having to be punished is nonsense and a fabrication in my honest opinion probably by donmeh Jews.
 
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I think that is the story of Harut and Marut and then as a form of punishment they were to stay on Earth and teach people magic but as a test to the people at the time to see if they could stay away from it. I believe the story to be a fabrication and not very sound at all as some scholars have pointed out.

The Quran simply tells two angels named, Harut and Marut came down and taught people magic as a test. Everything else about them turning into humans and then committing sin and having to be punished is nonsense and a fabrication in my honest opinion probably by donmeh Jews.
So it was them? i read it along time ago. The story is obviously fabricated because it's taking something that was in the bible but presenting it in another context.
 

Karlysymon

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Because only the Most High can live forever. Nothing we know of is immortal except for the Most High thus why we say He has no beginning and He has no end. Showing humans that angels will even die and then be resurrected will show the disbelievers how wrong they were especially the ones that worship and or worshiped angels.



Apologies. I thought you were referring to angels. The jinn are not like the angels. The jinn are similar to the humans in that they are a creation with free will and have the capacity to obey or disobey (this life is nothing but a test for both humans and jinns). They will die and be resurrected to be judged on their belief, actions, and works just like the humans.

All I know is that jinn are made from smokeless fire and anything else would just be conjecture on my part.

Do you believe the Most High literally used "hands" to form Adam(pbuh) if so that just seems a little funny to me because the Most High just says "be" and it is.
Is there a time frame of when, where and why the death and resurrection will occur? Is it at the end of the age, after the Mahdi....you get the gist.

Yes, going by the creation account, God 'got down in the dirt'. Re-read it and see for yourself. Everything else, He said "Let there be"
but for Adam and Eve, that statement isn't mentioned.

It may be funny but its actually a comforting thought that God took the time to mold someone.
David's psalm (139) is corroborative.

@AspiringSoul
i haven't forgotten you in the solomon thread.
 

Kung Fu

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Is there a time frame of when, where and why the death and resurrection will occur? Is it at the end of the age, after the Mahdi....you get the gist.
If you're talking about the angels, I already told you why I believe they die in the previous post. On the subject of Judgement Day only the Most High knows when that day is and, of course it would have to be after Mahdi and the return of Jesus.

Yes, going by the creation account, God 'got down in the dirt'. Re-read it and see for yourself. Everything else, He said "Let there be"
but for Adam and Eve, that statement isn't mentioned.
Going by that kind of logic than the Most High according to your views must of also gotten literally tired on the seventh day because he had to rest from all His work.
 

elsbet

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No, not all. Sorry if it came across that way. And you are right that Gen 6:4 *seems* to heavily lean towards angels. The problem is that theory raises more questions than it can answer. And as i mentioned to Kung Fu earlier, if the fallen angels could have offspring with humans, its only logical that they can procreate with their fellow angels. Except, it contradicts Christ's words about angels entering into matrimony. Iam sure we both agree that after their expulsion, God didn't take away their endowments, thus both fallen and unfallen can procreate. So, the theory demands of me to believe that angel Gabriel can have kids. Which then makes me wonder if my guardian angel has his own (angelic) family....so he sure must spend alot of time away from them because he lives to protect me and record my deeds. :D

I can't fully account for the Rephaites but i have a theory.
We are all Sethites because Noah descended from him. Could his daughters-in-law have descended from Nephilim/Cain's line? Maybe. But i choose to lean otherwise. Here's why:
It seems Noah wasn't planning on having any kids, given the prevailing decadence. Everyone else in Seth's line had kids much earlier. We both agree he had 120yrs to preach the 'end time' message and build the ark, and yet, he had Shem at age 500,( Gen 5:32) a century before the flood. The flood came when he was 600yo. (vs 7:11). So i highly doubt he would have let his sons marry unbelievers or those with a corrupted bloodline. Iam sure God would weigh on the matter of choosing life-mates since those 3 couples would re-populate the earth.

I think the Rephaites aren't so much of an anomaly but an ebb and flow in genetics. Using age as an example, God said he would reduce man's lifespan to 120, which he did and yet Abraham (175yo) outlived his grandfather (119yrs) and Isaac outlived them both (180yrs). So, the theory of degeneration, in an atmosphere of reduced oxygen, somehow, some people end(ed) up being of great stature. Shaquille O'neal is 7'1, just less 2ft of Goliath (over 9ft)


http://genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/giants/

Also, King Saul seemed to be in that range 7ft-10ft
And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly:and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people. 1 Sam 9:2

Interestingly, both he and Goliath aren't called Rephaites. So, maybe Rephaites were those over 12ft?
Idk.. but to my knowledge, Noah was the only one pure in his generations. All other flesh was corrupt.

You're familiar with Rob Skiba, right?
 

Karlysymon

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Idk.. but to my knowledge, Noah was the only one pure in his generations. All other flesh was corrupt.

You're familiar with Rob Skiba, right?
No, iam not. But you can post links for me :)

Going by that kind of logic than the Most High according to your views must of also gotten literally tired on the seventh day because he had to rest from all His work.
Haha
 

elsbet

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No, iam not. But you can post links for me :)
Nice.. please see, below. I'm posting two that are a part of the same lecture, each relatively short-- if you like, you can easily find the more in depth versions. :)


 

Karlysymon

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Nice.. please see, below. I'm posting two that are a part of the same lecture, each relatively short-- if you like, you can easily find the more in depth versions. :)


Thanks. Food for thought. I liked his reference to his friend's class experiment proving that sin/sinful desposition can be inherited. Something i totally agree with.
 

manama

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So it was them? i read it along time ago. The story is obviously fabricated because it's taking something that was in the bible but presenting it in another context.
It was indeed them, the fabrication of the fake story however is caused by Satan according to what i read long time ago, I heard it was at the same time as when Satan was making up lies about Prophet Solomon A.s after his death that he a.s practiced black magick.
I guess it was to demoralize the believers that both their prophets who was supposed to not be a sinner and the angels who supposedly couldn't sin, fell into sin.
 

manama

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As i have come to understand, angels and jinn are different entities in Islam,. So my question about duties/roles wasn't about angels but good jinn. What purpose do they serve because the angels do the recording, not good jinn? I guess, as you said, the universe is a big place and they must have some sort of employment.
Just another specie leading a normal life.
 

SpektaCoolAir

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Concerning Can Angels Disobey? - The case of Harut and Marut contradiction:

Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but verse [2:102] relates the story of two angels who sinned.

Verses in question:

16:49-50 And to Allâh prostate all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, of the live moving creatures and the angels, and they are not proud [i.e. they worship their Lord (Allâh) with humility]. They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.

2:102 They followed what the devils gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the devils, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

1. The allegation is based on a misunderstanding of verse 2:102 and the story given of Harut and Marut.
Many false interpretations of the above verse arise from Christian/Jewsish myths and legends that have been recorded in some books of Tafsir. These narrations are known called Israeliyyat which Mufti Muhammad Shafi describes as follows:

Judaica or Isra'iliyyat are narratives which have reached us through Jews and Christians. It may be noted that the early commentators used to write down all sorts of narrations which reached them from an identified source.
Many of these narrations were straight from Judaica.

(Shafi, Ma'ariful Qur'an, Maktaba-e-Darul-Uloom, Karachi 2003, vol. 1, p. 411)

The scholars who wrote these books of tafsir recorded such narrations in order to provide a comprehensive
record of narrations on a certain verse, which were intended to be investigated and scrutinised later to determine their authenticity. For more information please refer to our previous response on Can Angels Disobey?.
We shall proceed, God willingly, by discussing the false interpretation of the verses based on weak and fabricated reports and then we shall present the true interpretation of the verses based on authoritative sources.

2. There are numerous absurd tales that have been transmitted about these verses, yet they all center around the same basic story.
To summarise the (false) story, the angels had become astonished at the acts of disobedience committed by the human beings on earth. They began to curse the humans and could not understand how they could be so sinful. According to the story, God informed the angels that they would have also sinned if they were in the position of human beings. So the angels elected Harut and Marut from amongst themselves and God gave tem human attributes and sent them to earth after commanding them to avoid wine, idolatry, fornication and murder. However, Harut and Marut eventually succumbed to their human lusts and fell into all of these sins. Consequently, God punished them for their transgressions.

Such ridiculous tales have been rejected by all knowledgeable scholars of Islam as fabrications which have no place in the religion.
Shaykh Abdul Hamid Kishk discusses these narrations and tales in detail in his book on Angels:

All this is part of myths and lies of the tribe of Israel and is not corroborated either by intellect or transmission or Shari'a. Some of the transmitters of this false fiction even go so far as to ascribe its transmission to some of the Companions and Followers but in doing so they enter the arena of sin and shameful crime and at the same time connect this lie to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, by taking it back to him.
Glory be to You, my Lord, above and beyond this terrible lie!

http://www.islamawareness.net/Angels/disobey.html
 

elsbet

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Yes he is Hebrew Roots Movement, Id stay far away from that dude, even if he says some true things....
I missed this.
I'll have to familiarize myself with this aspect because I've never heard him speak on this before.
 
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