Angels

[Vytas]

They age, they eat, they procreate, and etc. I would like to add that Satan was given respite from death until the Final Day because he prayed for it in order to show the Most High how ungrateful the children of Adam(pbuh) would be to Him.

Yes we have example of that in book of Job.

Could you then say that's what they were created to do?

Maybe, we all serve God, we want it or not, even satan serves God.
Thanks for answers, not sure how i feel about smokeless fire though, in our world there is clear line between physical and spirtual realms, those jins seems to dwell in both...confusing...

 

[Kung Fu]

Maybe, we all serve God, we want it or not, even satan serves God.
Thanks for answers, not sure how i feel about smokeless fire though, in our world there is clear line between physical and spirtual realms, those jins seems to dwell in both...confusing...

I agree in the grand scheme of things we all serve the Most High whether we like it or not and whether we want too or not.

"Smokeless fire" could mean a lot of things scientifically, of course. The jinn operate on Earth but in a different realm where they can see us but we can't see them. They can't physically harm us but they can play with our senses such as sight.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[elsbet]

Matt Slick, author of the article you linked to.

Ahh.. Greek breakdown of "elect."

I have another post right after that one that elaborates.

 

[Karlysymon]

If no one knows what sin was or that it didn't exist how could they sin? If angels have the capacity to sin, as you believe they do, then why did they have to wait until Earth was created in order to sin? I'm really confused now.

Clearly he wasn't too bright considering what he did.

I believe animals have freewill because your dog, cat or horse can and will rebel against you.

Some christians believe angels can procreate. I don't. Man was 'created a little lower than them', so genetic make-up makes it an impossibility, just as offspring cannot arise out of a bestial act. There isn't any real proof, for me, supporting angelic-human liasons.
Are there actual accounts of jinn offspring and do they cross species?

The angels didn't know sin or its results as we know it now (war, death, disease) but once fullfledged rebellion had broken out, everyone knew something up because there was discord. You cannot fully understand something until you experience it. No one waited to sin until the creation of our solar system. It seems to me that rebellion had already broken out by the time our system was brought into existence.
Sin is transgression of the law and Lucifer told the very first lie. He broke one of the 10 commandments (John 8:44) as retold by Christ.
You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a
liar and the father of lies.

you are right in, a sense, to say that he wasn't too bright because sin is this mysterious thing that blinds or numbs the faculties. In the truest sense, Satan destroyed himself (like a drug addict). He is still alive but he isn't well. Christ talked about 'the decietfulness of sin'.
On the other hand, God didn't take away his great powers that he was endowed with. And it is that evil genius that has destroyed our world. So, despite the fact that his once great powers fade with the years, he remains brighter than you and remains such a formidable enemy to warrant the presence of guardian angels in our lives.

 

[elsbet]

I believe animals have freewill because your dog, cat or horse can and will rebel against you.

Some christians believe angels can procreate. I don't. Man was 'created a little lower than them', so genetic make-up makes it an impossibility, just as offspring cannot arise out of a bestial act. There isn't any real proof, for me, supporting angelic-human liasons.

You don't believe that the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6 are the fallen?

 

[SpektaCoolAir]

those jins seems to dwell in both...confusing...

if you are interested in a more detailed explanation then check out these links (if you got time):

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/669/viewall/world-of-jinn/

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyfPcUoivAtYLK6aIirYy65RieY1kCwBk


don't mean to derail the thread from the original topic - that's why i only provide the links.

 

[Karlysymon]

You don't believe that the 'sons of God' in Genesis 6 are the fallen?

No i don't
Feel free to convince me otherwise

If, as we are told that the fallen angels are the sons of God, the fathers of the giants, well, how do you account for giant plants, insects and animals in the distant past? Are the fallen responsible for that too?
(there was a discussion on this in the Nephilim thread)
Larger organisms in the past
http://genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/

If procreation is possible, why suddenly stop after the flood? I mean, the fallen have been harassing man since before the flood, where are their offspring now? Jesus compared the end times to Noah's day, if these are the end times, shouldn't we be witnessing the same kind of degeneracy?

Then that bit about genetics (Psalm 8)
For You have made him
a little lower than the angels

There are a multitude of voices out there that the sons of God are the children of Seth. Atleast i was shocked to find its the position Albert Pike held.
http://genesis6conspiracy.com/the-daughters-of-cain/

Seth and Enoch

 

[elsbet]

No i don't
Feel free to convince me otherwise

If, as we are told that the fallen angels are the sons of God, the fathers of the giants, well, how do you account for giant plants, insects and animals in the distant past? Are the fallen responsible for that too?
(there was a discussion on this in the Nephilim thread)
Larger organisms in the past
http://genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/

If procreation is possible, why suddenly stop after the flood? I mean, the fallen have been harassing man since before the flood, where are their offspring now? Jesus compared the end times to Noah's day, if these are the end times, shouldn't we be witnessing the same kind of degeneracy?

Then that bit about genetics (Psalm 8)
For You have made him
a little lower than the angels

There are a multitude of voices out there that the sons of God are the children of Seth. Atleast i was shocked to find its the position Albert Pike held.
http://genesis6conspiracy.com/the-daughters-of-cain/

Seth and Enoch

Good questions.. I appreciate your response.

It's 6.20 am here, and I have to run off to work-- but I will get back to you later with something that (hopefully) resembles an intelligent response. Favorite topic. ♡

Two points, though:
If the line of Seth = the Sons of God, it's not clear how they could have produced giants with the daughters of Cain.. they were both entirely human.

And second-- there were two Enochs.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(2) The sons of God. . . . --The literal translation of this verse is, And the sons of the Elohim saw the daughters of the adam that they were good (beautiful); and they took to them wives whomsoever they chose.
Gen. 6:2
Interlinear

 

[Vytas]

No i don't
If procreation is possible, why suddenly stop after the flood? I mean, the fallen have been harassing man since before the flood, where are their offspring now? Jesus compared the end times to Noah's day, if these are the end times, shouldn't we be witnessing the same kind of degeneracy?

Because that was purpose of the flood?

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What Jesus compares here? Knowledge, readiness, faith. Don't see any giants

 

[Karlysymon]

Good questions.. I appreciate your response.

It's 6.20 am here, and I have to run off to work-- but I will get back to you later with something that (hopefully) resembles an intelligent response. Favorite topic. ♡

Two points, though:
If the line of Seth = the Sons of God, it's not clear how they could have produced giants with the daughters of Cain.. they were both entirely human.

And second-- there were two Enochs.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(2) The sons of God. . . . --The literal translation of this verse is, And the sons of the Elohim saw the daughters of the adam that they were good (beautiful); and they took to them wives whomsoever they chose.
Gen. 6:2
Interlinear

I await your response and i enjoyed studying the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Yes, there were two Enochs but the bible puts emphasis on only one (Hebrews 11:5, Jude 14). Come to think of it, i've never read the Book of Enoch. So who actually wrote it? Cain's Enoch or Seth's Enoch? One was wiped out by the flood(Cain's entire line) and the other translated to heaven.

Everyone in the antediluvian world was a giant because of the enviroment and we've degenerated since
https://research.asu.edu/stories/read/big-insects-provide-big-answers-about-oxygen

But there's also the curious case of the Rephaites, post-flood giants and it'd be nice if you adressed that aswell. I wonder, was it a recessive gene? They were Abraham's contemporaries (Gen 14:5). Moses and the Israelites killed the last Rephaite, King Og of Bashan (Deut 3:11, 2:10)

@Vytas
Purpose of the flood wasn't because of the giants but because man was corrupt and had so destroyed the earth rendering it almost inhabitable. Just look at what we've done to our own world now...Fukushima, chemtrails, etc
Genesis 6:13
So God said to Noah, ‘I am going to put an end to all
people, for the earth is
filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

 

[Kung Fu]

I believe animals have freewill because your dog, cat or horse can and will rebel against you.

Animals operate on instinct. If they rebel it's due to instinct and not free will. There's a reason bees are called drones

Some christians believe angels can procreate. I don't. Man was 'created a little lower than them', so genetic make-up makes it an impossibility, just as offspring cannot arise out of a bestial act. There isn't any real proof, for me, supporting angelic-human liasons.
Are there actual accounts of jinn offspring and do they cross species?

What about the Nephilim?

The jinn are mortal and they exist today would have to mean they do procreate, logically speaking, of course. However, there's a veil between our realm and theirs in which we can't see them but they can see us. I have no idea if the veil/barrier was there when Adam(pbuh) came down to Earth or after the flood (because I think I know what you're getting at). Let's say the barrier was never there between us I still don't believe they could have intercourse with humans and produce offspring because their genetic makeup is completely different from ours.

The angels didn't know sin or its results as we know it now (war, death, disease) but once fullfledged rebellion had broken out, everyone knew something up because there was discord. You cannot fully understand something until you experience it. No one waited to sin until the creation of our solar system. It seems to me that rebellion had already broken out by the time our system was brought into existence.
Sin is transgression of the law and Lucifer told the very first lie. He broke one of the 10 commandments (John 8:44) as retold by Christ.
You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a
liar and the father of lies.

But if no one knew what sin was how would they know they were sinning?

How could he break one of the 10 commandments when he sinned (when no one knew what sin was) way before the 10 commandments were revealed?

 

[Kung Fu]

Purpose of the flood wasn't because of the giants but because man was corrupt and had so destroyed the earth rendering it almost inhabitable. Just look at what we've done to our own world now...Fukushima, chemtrails, etc
Genesis 6:13
So God said to Noah, ‘I am going to put an end to all
people, for the earth is
filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Careful Karly you're starting to sound like a Muslim.

 

[Vytas]

@Vytas
Purpose of the flood wasn't because of the giants but because man was corrupt and had so destroyed the earth rendering it almost inhabitable. Just look at what we've done to our own world now...Fukushima, chemtrails, etc
Genesis 6:13
So God said to Noah, ‘I am going to put an end to all
people, for the earth is
filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

Pure humans aren't capable of that period. Man was corrupt in only one way ? And who cares about earth? God would wipe us like 10 times already if those were main reasons, God doesn't change...

 

[Karlysymon]

What about the Nephilim?

The jinn are mortal and they exist today would have to mean they do procreate, logically speaking, of course. However, there's a veil between our realm and theirs in which we can't see them but they can see us. I have no idea if the veil/barrier was there when Adam(pbuh) came down to Earth or after the flood (because I think I know what you're getting at). Let's say the barrier was never there between us I still don't believe they could have intercourse with humans and produce offspring because their genetic makeup is completely different from ours.



But if no one knew what sin was how would they know they were sinning?

How could he break one of the 10 commandments when he sinned (when no one knew what sin was) way before the 10 commandments were revealed?

I already explained my beliefs about the Nephilim in a previous post.

Since the Jinn are mortal, i take it the angels are immortal? And what about the good ones, what other roles are they tasked with, other than worshipping God?
If they can procreate within their own 'race', sure the bad ones would try jinn-human liasons.
And thats my problem with angel-human liasons theory. If offspring resulted, its only logical that they (angels) can marry and reproduce with their own kind. But this directly contradicts Christ's words (just realizing this angle now!!)
For in the resurrection they neither marry,nor are given in marriage, but are
as the angels of God in Heaven. Matt 22:30
Then it also means there's male and female angels.

So, in the article Specktacoolair posted, there was this
We know as Muslims, that Jinns possess people for many reasons. Sometimes it is because the Jinn or its family has been hurt accidentally. It could be because the Jinn has fallen in love with the person.

seriously, i had to laugh because i had to imagine Iblis getting a dopamine rush because he's in love. That is crazy!
How can you hurt jinn, they are invisible. Hurtful words, maybe. Its not like you can hurl a glass at them?

Adam and Eve didn't know what sin was but they quickly found out after their transgression. You can't fully understand something until you experience it.
The Law predates Sinai, Adam...all creation infact. God has a gov't and you cannot establish one without laws.
The law is divine and eternal because it is an expression of His character. If the 10 commandments didn't exist before Moses, then it shouldn't have been wrong of Cain to kill, or Abraham to lie (about Sarah) or Joseph to commit adultery, etc. Even you guys have the story of Abraham smashing his father's idols (tawheed). The creation account also shows its existence pre-Sinai.

Careful Karly you're starting to sound like a Muslim.

Easy, easy now....i can't be anything other than christian.

 

[Kung Fu]

I already explained my beliefs about the Nephilim in a previous post.

Since the Jinn are mortal, i take it the angels are immortal? And what about the good ones, what other roles are they tasked with, other than worshipping God?
If they can procreate within their own 'race', sure the bad ones would try jinn-human liasons.
And thats my problem with angel-human liasons theory. If offspring resulted, its only logical that they (angels) can marry and reproduce with their own kind. But this directly contradicts Christ's words (just realizing this angle now!!)
For in the resurrection they neither marry,nor are given in marriage, but are
as the angels of God in Heaven. Matt 22:30
Then it also means there's male and female angels.

I'm not sure if angels are immortal or not. I believe they're mortal but have a life span that spans from the time they were created until Judgement Day where even they will face death and then be resurrected.

Karly, all angels are good and all angels were created to serve/worship the Most High. They all have tasks and they can range from a whole lot of things. The universe is a big place

Remember when I said there's a veil between us and the jinn and that they can't physically speaking do anything to us so I don't know how a jinn-human orgy would be possible.

So, in the article Specktacoolair posted, there was this
We know as Muslims, that Jinns possess people for many reasons. Sometimes it is because the Jinn or its family has been hurt accidentally. It could be because the Jinn has fallen in love with the person.

Possession is very rare and even then you have to take it with a grain of salt because people make up a lot of things.

 

[Kung Fu]

Adam and Eve didn't know what sin was but they quickly found out after their transgression. You can't fully understand something until you experience it.
The Law predates Sinai, Adam...all creation infact. God has a gov't and you cannot establish one without laws.
The law is divine and eternal because it is an expression of His character. If the 10 commandments didn't exist before Moses, then it shouldn't have been wrong of Cain to kill, or Abraham to lie (about Sarah) or Joseph to commit adultery, etc. Even you guys have the story of Abraham smashing his father's idols (tawheed). The creation account also shows its existence pre-Sinai.

All this talk about sin and that they didn't know what sin was but committed sin is confusing, contradictory, and doesn't make sense so I'm not going to be carrying on this part of the discussion any longer. Thanks for the discussion regardless. I enjoyed the rest, however.

 

[elsbet]

I await your response and i enjoyed studying the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

I'm not implying that you don't know the material-- hope that wasn't your perception.

I also enjoyed Kent Hovind's lectures on antediluvian times-- our bones were made of sturdier stuff, and the oxygen was just amazing. Makes sense if people were living well over 500 years. The way the bible presents Genesis 6:4 (there were giants in the earth in those days)-- seems to me that they are an anomaly... the heroes, or men of renown-- not the norm. My opinion of course.. there are others.

The fallen ones were in the earth
in those days, and even afterwards
when sons of God come in unto
daughters of men,
and they have borne to them --
they [are] the heroes, who, from of old,
[are] the men of name. Gen. 6:4

Nephilim, Strong's.. for 'fallen'

I didn't mean to emphasize the book of Enoch, though it presents some very interesting things, and I think it's more than noteworthy.

But there's also the curious case of the Rephaites, post-flood giants and it'd be nice if you adressed that aswell. I wonder, was it a recessive gene? They were Abraham's contemporaries (Gen 14:5). Moses and the Israelites killed the last Rephaite, King Og of Bashan (Deut 3:11, 2:10)

... and also after.
Indeed. Noah was pure in his generations, but it's doubtful that his son's wives were. That would explain the giants' existence, post-flood.. but I'm not sure how that figures in with the Sethite theory. Maybe you could elaborate?

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Kung Fu
Bro go on searchtruth.com and use the search function ie type in 'jinn' and then read every hadith you can get, in Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Dawood collection. You will find some answers at least.

 

[AspiringSoul]

in fact the first hadith that comes up would answer you
https://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=jinn&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0

 

[Kung Fu]

@Kung Fu
Bro go on searchtruth.com and use the search function ie type in 'jinn' and then read every hadith you can get, in Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Dawood collection. You will find some answers at least.

Will do. I'm familiar with the more popular ones such as the one about the prophet(pbuh) in relation to Solomon(pbuh).

Thanks for the links brother.