American Breakdown

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#81
People without a legal status can't receive SS benefits, period. Thier kids may go to the public school, they may receive medical care (mortaly they can't be rejected for lack of of legal status) and that's about it. No food stams, no housing help, no medicaid, unemployement, no medicare and no retirement. Period.
63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs
Compared to 35% of native households
https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs
 





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#82
Unless you are a small company.

There is this a family owned food distribution company. It started growing produce in an area where the only ones who did that job were ilegal inmigrants. As the time pass, the company started it own wholesale store and grew to 3 distribution centers and a store open to public. About 50% of the employees didn't have a legal status, they all were working with fake IDs and SS#. In 2009 Homeland Security came to do an audit, requested every employee's file and gave them 1 week to do it. 1 year later they came back with a hefty fine and the order of cleaning the files they found suspicious. The day after that HR met with the first 10 employees and requested copies of their documents. The next day only 50% of the workforce showed up to work.

That's how Obama mostly managed inmigration. While during Bush buses will come to the places to pick up employees, during Obama, there were investigations that resulted in fines and deportations.

Now, if you are a big employeer, I'm sure you were passing money to avoid been audited.

People without a legal status can't receive SS benefits, period. Thier kids may go to the public school, they may receive medical care (mortaly they can't be rejected for lack of of legal status) and that's about it. No food stams, no housing help, no medicaid, unemployement, no medicare and no retirement. Period. Most of them still go to work, pay rent, buy groceries, cars, cell phones, etc, and contribute to the economy. They know they are here ilegaly, and are willing to take the risk of been deported if caught.

America is breaking down by it's own people, specially those in power. There is no real free market when the corprations lobby to make the laws that benefit only them. There is no real capitalism, it's all corporatism and the greed of it's shareholders.
I agree. But I was specifically talking about businesses that pay under the table or 1099 employees who aren’t supposed to be to avoid paying into mandated insurance programs or their share of payroll taxes etc

Even the visa rules for jobs employers can’t fill are set up to benefit the rich who have lawyers on retainer to deal with all that while a small business may have to take a chance hiring an illegal because they can’t afford the ridiculous process mandated by the government

Everything is set up to keep the rich rich and the poor poor
 





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#83
There's an easier solution. Charge the crooked employers and block the remittances (which have topped $500 BILLION now) thus adhering to the rule of law. After all, this is what it is in and of itself, it's true nature: lawlessness. Everything else is incidental....
Well it would be nicer if the govt would have more reasonable laws. We all have to face the fact that Hispanic workers are the ones picking the crops and the ones that do the landscaping, cleaning, food prep etc. I don't see any other races doing those necessary jobs. So instead of making it harder for people to immigrate to fill those jobs then why not create more guest worker programs, not only for the field workers but for all the fields that immigrants currently occupy. Give them all a tax payer ID number and documents to work. A trial period for the govt to see if the immigrants are well-behaved and responsible and then provide a pathway to legalize their status based on their good citizenship.
 





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#84
Well it would be nicer if the govt would have more reasonable laws. We all have to face the fact that Hispanic workers are the ones picking the crops and the ones that do the landscaping, cleaning, food prep etc. I don't see any other races doing those necessary jobs. So instead of making it harder for people to immigrate to fill those jobs then why not create more guest worker programs, not only for the field workers but for all the fields that immigrants currently occupy. Give them all a tax payer ID number and documents to work. A trial period for the govt to see if the immigrants are well-behaved and responsible and then provide a pathway to legalize their status based on their good citizenship.
I am not anti immigration with the current stare of global affairs and being aware of our governments role in that...

However we have millions of people who can’t find work or can’t be hired due to criminal records (or who have some limitations like intellectual disabilities so people don’t want to hire them.. ) who we could be using to fill those positions instead - and who would be grateful for them. Saying the only possible people to fill these jobs are immigrants isn’t entirely honest.
 





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#85
I am not anti immigration with the current stare of global affairs and being aware of our governments role in that...

However we have millions of people who can’t find work or can’t be hired due to criminal records (or who have some limitations like intellectual disabilities so people don’t want to hire them.. ) who we could be using to fill those positions instead - and who would be grateful for them. Saying the only possible people to fill these jobs are immigrants isn’t entirely honest.
Let's be honest. Out of all those millions of people that can't find work, could you please tell me about how many You think would fill out applications to work as produce pickers, landscapers, car washers, house cleaners, hotel cleaners, construction, road workers, etc

The govt could also work on establishing work places for the disabled since the wealthy can't think of doing that.
 





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#86
Let's be honest. Out of all those millions of people that can't find work, could you please tell me about how many You think would fill out applications to work as produce pickers, landscapers, car washers, house cleaners, hotel cleaners, construction, road workers, etc

The govt could also work on establishing work places for the disabled since the wealthy can't think of doing that.
See... now your bias is showing

All of them. Construction, road work and landscaping are pretty good jobs. I work with autistic kids who’d be happy to wash some cars or pick produce. There are plenty of struggling single moms or moms with records who’d be happy to clean some houses. We aren’t giving them the opportunity because of JUDGING and instead claiming we need to ship in immigrants cuz Americans “just won’t” - when theyre are plenty of Americans that will. They just aren’t the kinda Americans we give a fuck about
 





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#87
the problem is that employers now think thwy are entitled to dictate what their employees can do when they arent at work.

marijuana should not be a job disqualifier since it stays in a persons system for 30 days unless that person comes into work appearing high they shouldnt even be drug testing.

but this isnt even entirely employers fault. the insurance industry in many cases is mandating it.
Very true about the insurance companies.

On NPR they had a similar story a few years back- rural Ohio manufacturing town with so many heroin/pill addicts the local factories couldn't keep people. No call no shows, workers leaving early for treatments,... you know the scene. The opioid crisis was real.

I agree about drug testing though. Unless you're manning a crane or other equipment that could kill people, who cares what you do after work? It never stopped our ancestors who were 1/2 drunk the next mornings. Cannabis is not a "drug" and doesn't effect perception or motor skills. If anything it improves them. I've had several bosses who smoked on the job and basically insisted I do the same lol.

I refuse to work for a company that drug tests.
 





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#88
See... now your bias is showing

All of them. Construction, road work and landscaping are pretty good jobs. I work with autistic kids who’d be happy to wash some cars or pick produce. There are plenty of struggling single moms or moms with records who’d be happy to clean some houses. We aren’t giving them the opportunity because of JUDGING and instead claiming we need to ship in immigrants cuz Americans “just won’t” - when theyre are plenty of Americans that will. They just aren’t the kinda Americans we give a fuck about
I'm not biased dear, maybe the system has established all thing bias and/or people. I just go by what I have observed, life-long observations. Maybe in the area where you live things are not as pronounced as things here where I live.

It's up to employers to give the disabled a chance to showcase their skills. Maybe they can offer part time jobs to them if their attention spans won't allow them to work longer. It's up to the employers/companies to give people a second chance after making legal mistakes as well. And who is going to give employees those ideas or mandate that they give the disadvantaged a chance??

I'm sorry to bring up the topic of slavery but you really think that those buying the slaves were interested in working the fields themselves? Were they just interested in raking in money at the expense of others? Why couldn't they just use the European immigrants that were in dire need of a job/money? Why the slaves?

Did you know that when the Europeans set foot here on this land, many died because they weren't willing to build themselves shelters and grow their own food? They thought they were just going to collect the gold but they weren't willing to work hard for it. The same thing is going on here and we have to face it, NOT Everyone is willing to work hard. Some are just looking a way to collect money from the comfort of their offices and not going to work under the sun.
 





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#89
You are claiming we need to ship in immigrants or let illegals work because there’s no Americans to work these jobs. I’m telling you there are - plenty who would be grateful for the chance and your telling me that 1) no they are too lazy to do them and 2) the employer should have the right to hire illegals instead

You realize they say the same lazy crap about immigrants in certain corners? You are using the same handbook but against a different population because you prefer the other one. For all we know many of those immigrants are criminals too since we don’t exactly have access to their records if they are using fake names... but because employers can save on employment taxes and insurance it’s ok? It’s not okay. The whole entire situation is not okay.
 





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#90
See... now your bias is showing

All of them. Construction, road work and landscaping are pretty good jobs. I work with autistic kids who’d be happy to wash some cars or pick produce. There are plenty of struggling single moms or moms with records who’d be happy to clean some houses. We aren’t giving them the opportunity because of JUDGING and instead claiming we need to ship in immigrants cuz Americans “just won’t” - when theyre are plenty of Americans that will. They just aren’t the kinda Americans we give a fuck about
It's interesting because what you're saying goes against the narrative we've heard our entire life- that only immigrants will do certain work in the US. I've really been thinking about it and am still on the fence deciding if that's true or not.

Farm owners are the main advocates for the necessity of immigrant labor. From their experience Americans will not/cannot pick vegetables all day in the southern California sun. Work like that in the direct heat can be brutal. Another one is slaughterhouses- for 8-10$ able bodied US citizens choose to keep looking for something else. Sorry but I'd rather live under a bridge than work in a slaughterhouse. I heard one story from the New England area who rely on immigrants to keep their seasonally busy restaurant alive.

One thing that gets lost is Mexicans and Central Americans are just as talented as anyone else. In fact I've seen that in trades like roofing and masonry they are straight-up masterful. Some of their crews will easily go for 10 or 12 hours. I'm pointing out that "immigrants" can do anything if given the opportunity- a lot more than restaurants or hotels.

There are programs to get our disabled into the workforce but I agree there should be more. The immigration crisis to me goes back to what's already been said about the destructive force of capitalism. Employment is a human right. If people everywhere were cared for and paid a living wage there would be no crisis or breakdown. The world is run by greedy, cut-throat capitalists who compete with each other for money vs. caring for human beings and the planet. Evolution into a post-scarcity economy can't happen soon enough.
 





Lisa

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#92
We are supposed to question the narrative. The narrative is never reality. It’s spin on reality to benefit someone.
Unless it’s something your against then the narrative is good enough for you, Tommy Robinson comes to mind.
 





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#93
You are claiming we need to ship in immigrants or let illegals work because there’s no Americans to work these jobs. I’m telling you there are - plenty who would be grateful for the chance and your telling me that 1) no they are too lazy to do them and 2) the employer should have the right to hire illegals instead
I'm not claiming we need to ship immigrants, the pattern/ precedent has already been set. Immigrant labor -the need for those people that are willing to work hard in any field is Great. You have to come to the cruel reality that not EVERYONE from ANY Race is willing to fill the positions where hard work is required. Maybe some for for the RIGHT PAY. You want affordable products?? Gotta rely on hard work and cheap pay.
You realize they say the same lazy crap about immigrants in certain corners? You are using the same handbook but against a different population because you prefer the other one. For all we know many of those immigrants are criminals too since we don’t exactly have access to their records if they are using fake names... but because employers can save on employment taxes and insurance it’s ok? It’s not okay. The whole entire situation is not okay.
I do prefer people that work hard, that know about good work ethic. I'm sure any employer in their right mind thinks the same.The people that are willing to work hard to earn a living, I do prefer those people. Whether they're disabled, immigrants, disadvantaged, I prefer those. I know of plenty of entitled youngsters that wanna show up to work and do very little but get fully paid. That's why the economy will be on the decline, not enough of the people that are willing to put in the work.
You're right some of those immigrants are criminals. EVERY single race on this planet has its share of bad/rotten apples. How are we to tell unless they show their true colors? Even people that have had a good record all of a sudden snap. It's unfair to point the finger to just one race or ethnic group in that regard.
 





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#94
It's interesting because what you're saying goes against the narrative we've heard our entire life- that only immigrants will do certain work in the US. I've really been thinking about it and am still on the fence deciding if that's true or not.

Farm owners are the main advocates for the necessity of immigrant labor. From their experience Americans will not/cannot pick vegetables all day in the southern California sun. Work like that in the direct heat can be brutal. Another one is slaughterhouses- for 8-10$ able bodied US citizens choose to keep looking for something else. Sorry but I'd rather live under a bridge than work in a slaughterhouse. I heard one story from the New England area who rely on immigrants to keep their seasonally busy restaurant alive.

One thing that gets lost is Mexicans and Central Americans are just as talented as anyone else. In fact I've seen that in trades like roofing and masonry they are straight-up masterful. Some of their crews will easily go for 10 or 12 hours. I'm pointing out that "immigrants" can do anything if given the opportunity- a lot more than restaurants or hotels.

There are programs to get our disabled into the workforce but I agree there should be more. The immigration crisis to me goes back to what's already been said about the destructive force of capitalism. Employment is a human right. If people everywhere were cared for and paid a living wage there would be no crisis or breakdown. The world is run by greedy, cut-throat capitalists who compete with each other for money vs. caring for human beings and the planet. Evolution into a post-scarcity economy can't happen soon enough.
So well said Davidson
 





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#95
I do prefer people that work hard, that know about good work ethic. I'm sure any employer in their right mind thinks the same.The people that are willing to work hard to earn a living, I do prefer those people. Whether they're disabled, immigrants, disadvantaged, I prefer those. I know of plenty of entitled youngsters that wanna show up to work and do very little but get fully paid. That's why the economy will be on the decline, not enough of the people that are willing to put in the work.
You're right some of those immigrants are criminals. EVERY single race on this planet has its share of bad/rotten apples. How are we to tell unless they show their true colors? Even people that have had a good record all of a sudden snap. It's unfair to point the finger to just one race or ethnic group in that regard.
Your assuming the groups you mentioned work hard and the groups I mentioned don’t. Both are assumptions. And I wonder why you assume the groups I mentioned don’t... how are you concluding that?

And yes every single group has their bad apples. You say we should see their “true colors” Yet you are dismissing entire groups of people based on mistakes they made without giving them a chance to show their “true colors” - why should we give immigrants a chance but not someone with a criminal record? Or who smokes pot on the weekends? Or who has some sort of disability? None of those things automatically mean they won’t work hard. Or are bad people. Assumptions... but you don’t want assumptions about immigrants.

I find it an interesting comment aimed at me since I’m not anti immigrant. My comment was in response to the claim we NEED to have immigRants because Americans WONT take the jobs. I don’t believe that’s true. Not by a long shot. That doesn’t have any bearing on my stance on immigration. I don’t need some made up story to justify my stance on immigration. If it’s the right thing to do we should do it. But let’s be honest about it on all sides.

As for the younger generations seeming lack of initiative.. that isn’t a group I mentioned and would be a thread in and of itself. However if the rewards of employment - even employment they wouldn’t necessarily want - were greater then the perceived or real consequences of not taking those jobs... we wouldn’t be having the problems we are with the younger generations.

@Lisa you can’t make up a criminal record.
 





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#97
Your assuming the groups you mentioned work hard and the groups I mentioned don’t. Both are assumptions. And I wonder why you assume the groups I mentioned don’t... how are you concluding that?
No Jess I am not assuming anything you just want to pick a fight or maybe I am not explaining myself correctly. ANY Ethnic group on this Earth has its bad apples, ANY. I am not saying immigrants are Angels. I am saying that most immigrants are hard workers, I am not saying U.S nationals are all lazy I know there are hardworking ones but I see more of them in white collar positions.
And yes every single group has their bad apples. You say we should see their “true colors” Yet you are dismissing entire groups of people based on mistakes they made without giving them a chance to show their “true colors” - why should we give immigrants a chance but not someone with a criminal record? Or who smokes pot on the weekends? Or who has some sort of disability? None of those things automatically mean they won’t work hard. Or are bad people. Assumptions... but you don’t want assumptions about immigrants.
I AM NOT dismissing entire groups Jess, I'm sorry that You're Not understanding what I'm saying. How can I dismiss an entire group because of their mistakes when I CLEARLY stated that they should be given a chance????
I find it an interesting comment aimed at me since I’m not anti immigrant. My comment was in response to the claim we NEED to have immigRants because Americans WONT take the jobs. I don’t believe that’s true. Not by a long shot. That doesn’t have any bearing on my stance on immigration. I don’t need some made up story to justify my stance on immigration. If it’s the right thing to do we should do it. But let’s be honest about it on all sides.
You're Dismissing the fact that NOT Everyone is geared for certain Jobs that require hard labor.
As for the younger generations seeming lack of initiative.. that isn’t a group I mentioned and would be a thread in and of itself. However if the rewards of employment - even employment they wouldn’t necessarily want - were greater then the perceived or real consequences of not taking those jobs... we wouldn’t be having the problems we are with the younger generations.
There are some hard working youths I am Not saying they're all lazy but A LOT of them are. Just like everything else that is on the decline the workforce is one the fields being affected as well.
@Lisa you can’t make up a criminal record.
 





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#98
Did you or did you not state that we need immigrants because there are no Americans who would take those jobs?

And then when provided with groups who I’m almost positive would state “I prefer hard workers” ?
 





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#99
Did you or did you not state that we need immigrants because there are no Americans who would take those jobs?
Maybe I did or didn't. Whatever is going on in the work force speaks for itself.
And then when provided with groups who I’m almost positive would state “I prefer hard workers” ?
Hard workers could be Black, White, Brown, Natives, etc, disabled, human beings that make mistakes, teens, women, men anyone that understands the concept of hard work.
 





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Do you pre
Did you or did you not state that we need immigrants because there are no Americans who would take those jobs?

And then when provided with groups who I’m almost positive would state “I prefer hard workers” ?
Do you prefer people that work hard or it doesn't matter?