All Ancient Gentiles Will Go To Hell. Here's The Reason.

Mr. Blah

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Although ancient gentiles (who didn't know Jesus or YHVH, Jewish God) have engraved law by God in their conscience, ALL of them would transgress it and it makes them sinners, like the Hebrew.

Both Jews and gentiles are under sin, but luckily for Jews, they know what to repent (i.e. to do sacrificial ritual prescribed in the Torah).
Poor gentiles, like ancient Native Americans, they didn't know which God is true and what to do if they sin.
Worshiping wrong God is sin too.

If they could live for 4000 years, there might be a chance to them to know Jesus & YHVH.
 

Mr. Blah

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Their deeds too would be filthy rags in the sight of God.
They can't help at all.
 

Todd

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If they could live for 4000 years, there might be a chance to them to know Jesus & YHVH.
Fortunately they will get that chance to know Jesus and YHVH in the ages to come! Yeah they going to spend sometime in hell, but hell isn't eternal!
 

Etagloc

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I see now why my professor said Christianity is a racist religion..... it's hella racist to think Native Americans who lived before white people brought Christianity are going to hell just because they were born indians.
 

UnspokenSoliloquy

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I believe different cultures were exposed to the true God, I'm not saying all religions are the same because they are not but with the amount of languages and cultures we have they could have learned about the true God and just called him a different name or referred to him in a different way. You can't automatically assume that ancients weren't saved. We know the Hebrews were the chosen people but we don't know how many gentiles believed and converted or believed in their own right.
 
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It is an Islamic viewpoint that every nation was sent a Messenger for their guidance. The important matter was the concept of Tawheed i.e., in oneness of Allah. The secondary matter was Shariah which kept changing from tribe to tribe and nation to nation. Allah, the most high, alone knows what is good for His creation. As it is mentioned in the Qur'ân:

And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'ân 16:36)

Some of these Messengers are mentioned in the Qur'ân by Allah and some of them are not as the Qur'ân says:

And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad); of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (Qur'ân 40:78)

So, we decided to have a look at the issue of Messengers sent to various tribes and nations and taking the advice of the Qur'ân So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth).

The content in this post is a discovery by serendipity. The information sometimes came from lazy browsing through the books on social anthropology and sometimes from serious research. As it was mentioned before the Islamic belief is that every nation on the earth was sent a Prophet for their guidance. As the time passed by corruption was introduced in the religion and instead of worshopping one true God, false dieties were worshipped along with it. The best example would be of Arabia before the advent of Prophet Muhammad(P). They worshipped idols like al-Uzza along with Allah.

The material below is an attempt to show that how different tribes in different parts of the world had Monotheism, i.e., worship of one true God. But along the true God some subservient gods are also worshipped in some cases.

The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea

The material is taken from a book called The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea by Leopold Pospisil. It is a case study of Stone-Age Kapauku tribe who led their aboriginal lives undisturbed by the spreading western civilization until 1938. The Kapauku Papuans are mountain people who belong to one of the several tribes whose members inhabit the central highlands of western New Guinea. Their country, most of which lies 1500 m above sea level, is composed of rugged mountain chains and deep valleys.

The Kapauku have an interesting world view. If we have to compare their religion versus Islam, the difference is very little. Regarding the Creator of the universe, the Kapauku believe:

The universe itself and all existence was Ebijata, "designed by Ugatame", the Creator, Ugatame has a dual nature: He is supposed to be masculine and feminine at the same time, is referred to as the two entities, and is manifested to the people by the duality of the sun and the moon. To my enquiry whether Ugatame was the sun and the moon I received the answer a firm denial. The sun is conceived as the ball of fire, because it provides light and is warm; moon is believed to be a cold light like that of a firefly or the bacteria that infest rotting wood. Sun and moon are only manifestations of Ugatame who thus makes his presence known to the people. they definitely are not Creator himself.[1]

On the nature of Ugatame, the Creator:

Ugatame is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, credited with the creation of all things and with having determined all events. Strangely enough, however, he is not believed to exist himself. When I questioned this contention, a Kapauku defended skillfully by a question: "But how can he exist when he created all the existence?" Obviously Ugatame is beyond existence, because to Kapauku all that exists must be of phenomenonal nature; one must be able to see, hear, smell, taste or feel it. But the Creator is beyond this phenomenal dimension, because of the simple reason that He created it. because He is so to speak, in the fifth dimension and is not of phenomenal nature, He is able to be omnipresent."[2]

How about good and evil?

From this position the Kapauku "logicians" reason further that evil as well as good have been equally created and determined by Ugatame. Consequently, he can be neither good, nor bad, but he must be indifferent.... In the world created by Ugatame everything is real to the Kapauku. Even the evil spirits that belong to the creation of Ugatame are necessarily phenomenal and not supernatural.[3]

On the aspect of free will, Kapauku think:

As a further extrapolations from above premises the Kapauku argue that because everything has been determined by Ugatame there cannot be anything like a free will in man, and consequently there is no sin. After all, Creator created good as well as evil, so why should he punish a man for executing his own will?[4]

An interesting argument between a Kapauku and a Christian Missionary:

"... a Kapauku is basically logical; he refuses to accept dogmas that either oppose clear empirical evidence or that contradict his commonsense or logic. On this subject an incident in the year 1955 was illuminating to me. A very old man from the mapia region, supported by his two sons, managed to come to see me in the Kamu valley. As he explained to me, his main purpose in coming was a problem he wanted to have clarified before he died. The problem concerned the white man. He could not understand how it is possible that the white man could be so clever and ingenious in designing such amazing contrivances as aeroplanes (which the old man could see flying over his valley), guns, medicines, clothes, and steel tools, and at the same time could be so primitive and illogical in his religion. "How can you think," he argued, "that a man can sin and can have a free will, and at the same time believe that your God is omnipotent, that He created the world and determined all the happenings? If He determined all that happens, and (therefore) also the bad deeds, how can a man be held responsible? Why, if he is omnipotent, did the Creator have to change himself into a man to allow himself to be killed (crucified) when it would have been enough for him just to order men to behave?" The notion that anything can be absolutely bad or good was quite incomprehensible to him. Furthermore, the Christian notion of man resembling God in appearance appeared to him as utterly primitive (tabe-tabe, meaning stupid).[5]

It is quite surprising that a tribe from stone age could argue so rationally and logically with a Christian Missionary on the aspect of God. We Muslims also use the same arguments when it comes to the concept of God. And of course, when the Kapauku heard that the God became man they called the concept "primitive" and "tabe-tabe" (stupid). Well, "polemics" against Christianity started in the stone age itself, Muslims are not to be blamed for that!!!

Lastly, now where is this Ugatame, their supreme god, residing? Waiting for the shock:

In the view of Kamu Kapauku the world is a flat block of stone and soil that is surrounded with water and extends indefinitely into the depth thus providing no room for an underworld. Above the earth is a solid bowl of blue sky that limits the known world at the horizon. During the day the sun travels from east to west on the inside of the inverted bowl of sky and thus provides light. In the evening it slips under the edge of the bowl and travels above it from west to east. Because the bowl of the sky is solid, it shields the earth from sun's rays, thus bringing night. an empirical support for this theory according to my informants, is provided by the stars. They are thought to be perforations in the solid sky, through which the rays of the returning sun penetrate at night. In the morning the sun emerges in the east under the canopy of the sky, thus making a new day. Beyond the solid bowl of sky exists another world that may be similar to ours, the abode of Ugatame, the Creator."[6]

The Religion Of Dinka Of Africa

The people of Dinka live in a land which lies in a vast arc around the swamps of central Nile basin in the Southern Sudan. It is a flat country of open savannah and savannah forest, intersected by many rivers and streams converging upon the central basin of the Nile. About the nature of the Dinka's religious philosophy:

The word which any enquirer into Dinka religion will first and most frequently hear is nhialic. Literally, the word is the locative form of nhial, meaning 'up' or 'above', and nhialic is the word used in many contexts in which we shoud speak of 'the sky'. Part of the meaning of nhialic, then, is conveyed by the 'sky' and 'in the above'.

But further, nhialic is addressed and referred to as 'creator' (aciek) and 'my father' (wa), and prayers and sacrifice are offered to it.[7]

Regarding the attributes of nhialic:

It would be easy, it is true, to translate nhialic aciek and nhialic wa as 'God the creator' and 'God (my) father', for the attributes of nhialic and 'God' there closely coincide, as do many others - unity, power, justice, 'highness', for example.[8]

In Dinka there are important interconnexions between notions of creation and of fatherhood, through the verb 'to create' is never interchangeable with the verb 'to beget'. Divinity (i.e., nhialic) created (cak) men in the beginning, and the men he created begot or bore (dhieth) children. Divinity did not 'beget' or 'bear' men, and it would be a linguistic mistake in Dinka either to use this express for the creation of men by Divinity, or to say that father and mother 'created' their child. Dhieth means both 'to beget' and 'to give birth to', so that verbally the activities of men and women in procreation are not distinguished from each other. When a man was asked to explain what happened in coitus, he described the physical act, and added 'And that is called begetting (dhieth), and Divinity will then slowly create (cak) the child in woman's belly.'[9]

And, of course, it goes without saying that when the woman is barren, it means that the Divinity has 'refused' her a child.

Other attributes of Divinity are the Absolute Truth and the Judge.

Divinity is specially needed to intervene in human affairs, to put them straight by making the truth appear. Wet nhialic, the 'word' of Divinity, is the truth, or what really and absolutely is so; and the Dinka think that in certain circumstances men may speak this totally objective 'word', representing to others the true nature of things, whether of present, past, of future situations. Cit nhialic, 'like Divinity' or 'as Divinity', is one of the common expressions men used to guarantee the truth of what they say, and 'Divinity will see' is what any Dinka will say if he suspects another of lying or cheating him and can take no further action of his own in the matter. In some of the invocations reproduced later it will be seen that Divinity is made the final judge or right or wrong, even when men feel sure that they are right. Divinity is thus the guardian of truth - and sometimes signifies to men what really is the case, behind or beyond their errors and falsehoods.[10]

The author went on to say:

The Dinka have no problem with the prospering sinner, for they are sure that Divinity will ultimately bring justice. Since among them every man at some time must meet with suffering and misfortune, death or disease among his family or his cattle, there is always evidence, for those who wish to refer to it, of divine justice. It is a serious matter when a man calls on Divinity to judge between him and another, so seriously that only a fool would take the risks involved if he knew he was in the wrong, and to call upon Divinity as witness gives the man who does so an initial presumption of being in the right.[11]

Divinity is also considered as the supreme being.

Nhialic, Divinity, has no plural; it is both singular and plural in intention.[12]

Some interesting thoughts of Dinka about the Divinity:

Divinity is 'in the above', and what rises into the sky thus approaches Divinity. I have been asked whether an aeroplane ever touches the sky, and if Divinity can be seen from it. This is a clear indication that the Dinka can regard Divinity as distinct from the 'physical' sky, for the sky itself can obviously be seen from the earth. The way in which terrestrail being may approach Divinity is by going high, by levitation, or sometimes by building a mound or 'pyramid'. There are many reports of the rising of holy men into the sky, and sometimes by those who claim that special relations have been established between divinity and themselves. Conversely, Divinity makes contact with the earth by falling, or by letting something fall, or by hurling something down. Such contacts are made in rain, lightning, comets and meteorites, and also in free-divinites which fall and possess men. All these are manifestations of Divinity.[13]

How about the beginning of relationship of Dinka and Divinity?

Logically, and for the Dinka historically, their relations with Divinity begin with a story of the supposed conjunction, and then division, of the earth and the sky - the emergence of their world as it is.[14]

Dinka, to our surprise, have their own 'version' of Adam and Eve story, i.e., the first human beings on the earth.

One of the myths of the separation of earth and sky already given shows that the Dinka also have the idea that Divinity originally created a pair, Garang and Abuk, from whom all men are descended.[15]

The first human beings, usually called Garang and Abuk, living on earth had to take care when they were doing their little planting or pounding, lest a hoe or a pestle should strike Divinity, but one day the woman 'because she was greedy' (in this context any Dinka would view her 'greed' indulgently) decided to plant (or pound) more than the permitted grain of millet. In order to do so she took one of the long-handled hoes (or pestles) which the Dinka now use. In raising this pole to pound or cultivate, she struck Divinity who withdrew, offended, to present great distance from the earth, and sent a small blue bird (the colour od the sky) called atoc to sever the rope which had previously given the men access to the sky and to him. Since that time the country has been 'spoilt', for men have to labour for the food they need, and are often hungry. They can no longer as before freely reach Divinity, and they suffer sickness and death, which thus accompany their abrupt separation from Divinity.[16]

There are, of course, other 'versions' of the same story as described above.

From what we have seen above, it is clear that Monotheism existed among the tribes. And when Muslims encounter the Monotheism, we say, subhânallah, this is what Allah mentions in the Qur'ân. We have to look for His Signs as Allah says:

Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (Qur'ân 41:53)

And Allah knows best!
 

Daciple

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I do not believe this in the least bit, and I do not believe that the Word of God teaches this either. What does the Word of God teach us concerning those who hadnt or havent heard the name of Jesus or the Gospel?

First we must establish something clearly, and that is that God is not a respecter of persons:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

So we can be assured that God is judging everyone equally and on the same merit and when we read the Word of God He tells us exactly by what merit it is He judges all people.

Foremost we know that God has revealed Himself to all people, every single person in existence has been clearly made aware that God exists, some who like to call themselves Atheist make up reasons to reject His existence but He has assuredly spoken to them all and made Himself very clear to them.

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Nature itself declares God exists and all humanity knows it even if they reject it and create arguments to deny Him, we all have been made aware. I could use Nature to prove the existence of God in detail but that isnt what this thread is about so hopefully it doesnt derail the thread but the Mathematical Theory of Communication by Claude Shannon when applied to DNA proves beyond any doubt there is a Creator. DNA is a communications system, every single communications system in all of human existence and knowledge has a designer, it is impossible to have a communications system with out an intelligence higher than the communications system to create in the input and output. It also proves that Macroevolution is false as mutations are equivalent to noise in a communications system and noise is always 100% of the time degradation of the original signal, its never adding quality its taking it away. Just as mutations never add to DNA just corrupts it, anyways hopefully if we choose to debate this someone starts a new thread not to derail this one.

So we can see that God has shown Himself to all people, if a person rejects that God exists while clearly being made to know He exists then He will be Judged accordingly and thrown into Hell as the Bible states:

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

However we can still attest to the Athiests where they stand before the Lord, by showing where all Humanity stands before the Lord regardless of knowing Christ or the Word of God, as again God is not a respecter of persons. We are all made aware He exists and we are all made aware where we stand before the Lord.

Since there is no respecter of persons with God we know that all men are judged righteously and equally before the Lord. We also know that we are all judged by the light we are given to us the principal taught by James:

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

It is also taught by Christ in Matt 11:

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee
.

We also know that for those that know more, more is expected:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more
.

However we know that everyone is guilty before the Lord of Sin:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We also see this Truth working in all men:

Rom 3:4 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
:

So we see that God has written the law in our hearts, in all humanity regardless of time or location, and how can we prove this is True? Because regardless of time or location men who have never formally heard of the Law of God have created Laws in their Societies that already contain the Law of God. The universal laws such as without being told of the Law of Moses know that stealing, lying, murdering ect ect ect are wrong and thus have created secular laws based on these things. We also know that we in and of ourselves all create to ourselves our own personal laws apart from the secular law, things we tell ourselves we will or wont ever do. I'd never hurt a person, I'd never do this or that, however when we are all honest with ourselves all of us and thus every single human in existence save one, has broken not only the Law of God, not only the Secular Law, but we all have broken our own created made up Laws!! Thus we all know we stand guilty as we break even our own Laws!!

So we see 2 things, first that we all know God exists because Nature declares it so there will be no excuses given before God that we werent aware of His existence and second we see that all men are guilty before God, and each and everyone of us knows and understands that we are guilty for we not only break the Perfect Law of God, we even break our own made up moral law. Because of these two things all of humanity stands before God guilty and all of humanity knows we stand guilty before God. This is the basis of all Judgement from God and it is from here we are all equally Judged.

Those who hear the Gospel are made to know without a doubt that God exists and that they are all guilty before Him for breaking His Law. It is the response to the knowledge that either keeps a man in darkness and condemnation or allows a man into the light and justified by faith in the Works of Christ. It is the broken and contrite heart before God asking for forgiveness thru Christ that brings Salvation, I believe that all men have been given the same exact opportunity, for all men have been made to know God exists and that they are guilty before the Lord. I believe that those who may have never heard of the name of Christ, that still come with a broken and contrite heart before God and cry out for forgiveness, that God will meet them right there and offer them Salvation. We see this in the life of Cornelius (Acts 10-11) the man who knew God and cried out to Him and thus Peter was sent to preach the Gospel and he immediately accepted it.

I believe those who acknowledge God, who acknowledge their Sin before God, that acknowledge they have no possibility of atoning for their Sin, and cry out to God in repentance, even if they live in the Jungles and the Rainforest, never hearing the name of Jesus, God will come to them and that their hearts would be the same as Cornelius and would accept Christ immediately.

If one disavows God, disavows the need for redemption, disavows their Sin and guilt before God, even if they never heard the name of Christ or the Gospel they will stand guilty before God and remain condemned....
 

Lady

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The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
 

Todd

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So, Satan and his angels are punished in temporal hell?

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
the greek word aionios in that scripture does not mean eternal. Aionios means "of the ages"a period of time of long duration" The correct word for "eternal" adidios" and is only used in the NT to describe God himslef.
 

Mr. Blah

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the greek word aionios in that scripture does not mean eternal. Aionios means "of the ages"a period of time of long duration" The correct word for "eternal" adidios" and is only used in the NT to describe God himslef.
So, how long is the length of "eternal life"?
"aionios" is used too for the phrase "eternal life" - "ζωην αιωνιον"/"zoen aionion"
 

Mr. Blah

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If the unknowing gentiles are saved too, there is no need to evangelize them.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

The joke pokes fun of a real conundrum: it would obviously be unfair for God to condemn these people for not accepting Jesus when they’d never heard of him, but at the same time, now that they’ve heard of him, their eternal souls are put at risk.

https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/28-if-someone-never-hears-the-gospel-can-they-still-go-to-heaven/
 
Last edited:

Mr. Blah

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It is an Islamic viewpoint that every nation was sent a Messenger for their guidance. The important matter was the concept of Tawheed i.e., in oneness of Allah. The secondary matter was Shariah which kept changing from tribe to tribe and nation to nation. Allah, the most high, alone knows what is good for His creation. As it is mentioned in the Qur'ân:

And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). (Qur'ân 16:36)

Some of these Messengers are mentioned in the Qur'ân by Allah and some of them are not as the Qur'ân says:

And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad); of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. (Qur'ân 40:78)

So, we decided to have a look at the issue of Messengers sent to various tribes and nations and taking the advice of the Qur'ân So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth).

The content in this post is a discovery by serendipity. The information sometimes came from lazy browsing through the books on social anthropology and sometimes from serious research. As it was mentioned before the Islamic belief is that every nation on the earth was sent a Prophet for their guidance. As the time passed by corruption was introduced in the religion and instead of worshopping one true God, false dieties were worshipped along with it. The best example would be of Arabia before the advent of Prophet Muhammad(P). They worshipped idols like al-Uzza along with Allah.

The material below is an attempt to show that how different tribes in different parts of the world had Monotheism, i.e., worship of one true God. But along the true God some subservient gods are also worshipped in some cases.

The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea

The material is taken from a book called The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea by Leopold Pospisil. It is a case study of Stone-Age Kapauku tribe who led their aboriginal lives undisturbed by the spreading western civilization until 1938. The Kapauku Papuans are mountain people who belong to one of the several tribes whose members inhabit the central highlands of western New Guinea. Their country, most of which lies 1500 m above sea level, is composed of rugged mountain chains and deep valleys.

The Kapauku have an interesting world view. If we have to compare their religion versus Islam, the difference is very little. Regarding the Creator of the universe, the Kapauku believe:

The universe itself and all existence was Ebijata, "designed by Ugatame", the Creator, Ugatame has a dual nature: He is supposed to be masculine and feminine at the same time, is referred to as the two entities, and is manifested to the people by the duality of the sun and the moon. To my enquiry whether Ugatame was the sun and the moon I received the answer a firm denial. The sun is conceived as the ball of fire, because it provides light and is warm; moon is believed to be a cold light like that of a firefly or the bacteria that infest rotting wood. Sun and moon are only manifestations of Ugatame who thus makes his presence known to the people. they definitely are not Creator himself.[1]

On the nature of Ugatame, the Creator:

Ugatame is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, credited with the creation of all things and with having determined all events. Strangely enough, however, he is not believed to exist himself. When I questioned this contention, a Kapauku defended skillfully by a question: "But how can he exist when he created all the existence?" Obviously Ugatame is beyond existence, because to Kapauku all that exists must be of phenomenonal nature; one must be able to see, hear, smell, taste or feel it. But the Creator is beyond this phenomenal dimension, because of the simple reason that He created it. because He is so to speak, in the fifth dimension and is not of phenomenal nature, He is able to be omnipresent."[2]

How about good and evil?

From this position the Kapauku "logicians" reason further that evil as well as good have been equally created and determined by Ugatame. Consequently, he can be neither good, nor bad, but he must be indifferent.... In the world created by Ugatame everything is real to the Kapauku. Even the evil spirits that belong to the creation of Ugatame are necessarily phenomenal and not supernatural.[3]

On the aspect of free will, Kapauku think:

As a further extrapolations from above premises the Kapauku argue that because everything has been determined by Ugatame there cannot be anything like a free will in man, and consequently there is no sin. After all, Creator created good as well as evil, so why should he punish a man for executing his own will?[4]

An interesting argument between a Kapauku and a Christian Missionary:

"... a Kapauku is basically logical; he refuses to accept dogmas that either oppose clear empirical evidence or that contradict his commonsense or logic. On this subject an incident in the year 1955 was illuminating to me. A very old man from the mapia region, supported by his two sons, managed to come to see me in the Kamu valley. As he explained to me, his main purpose in coming was a problem he wanted to have clarified before he died. The problem concerned the white man. He could not understand how it is possible that the white man could be so clever and ingenious in designing such amazing contrivances as aeroplanes (which the old man could see flying over his valley), guns, medicines, clothes, and steel tools, and at the same time could be so primitive and illogical in his religion. "How can you think," he argued, "that a man can sin and can have a free will, and at the same time believe that your God is omnipotent, that He created the world and determined all the happenings? If He determined all that happens, and (therefore) also the bad deeds, how can a man be held responsible? Why, if he is omnipotent, did the Creator have to change himself into a man to allow himself to be killed (crucified) when it would have been enough for him just to order men to behave?" The notion that anything can be absolutely bad or good was quite incomprehensible to him. Furthermore, the Christian notion of man resembling God in appearance appeared to him as utterly primitive (tabe-tabe, meaning stupid).[5]

It is quite surprising that a tribe from stone age could argue so rationally and logically with a Christian Missionary on the aspect of God. We Muslims also use the same arguments when it comes to the concept of God. And of course, when the Kapauku heard that the God became man they called the concept "primitive" and "tabe-tabe" (stupid). Well, "polemics" against Christianity started in the stone age itself, Muslims are not to be blamed for that!!!

Lastly, now where is this Ugatame, their supreme god, residing? Waiting for the shock:

In the view of Kamu Kapauku the world is a flat block of stone and soil that is surrounded with water and extends indefinitely into the depth thus providing no room for an underworld. Above the earth is a solid bowl of blue sky that limits the known world at the horizon. During the day the sun travels from east to west on the inside of the inverted bowl of sky and thus provides light. In the evening it slips under the edge of the bowl and travels above it from west to east. Because the bowl of the sky is solid, it shields the earth from sun's rays, thus bringing night. an empirical support for this theory according to my informants, is provided by the stars. They are thought to be perforations in the solid sky, through which the rays of the returning sun penetrate at night. In the morning the sun emerges in the east under the canopy of the sky, thus making a new day. Beyond the solid bowl of sky exists another world that may be similar to ours, the abode of Ugatame, the Creator."[6]

The Religion Of Dinka Of Africa

The people of Dinka live in a land which lies in a vast arc around the swamps of central Nile basin in the Southern Sudan. It is a flat country of open savannah and savannah forest, intersected by many rivers and streams converging upon the central basin of the Nile. About the nature of the Dinka's religious philosophy:

The word which any enquirer into Dinka religion will first and most frequently hear is nhialic. Literally, the word is the locative form of nhial, meaning 'up' or 'above', and nhialic is the word used in many contexts in which we shoud speak of 'the sky'. Part of the meaning of nhialic, then, is conveyed by the 'sky' and 'in the above'.

But further, nhialic is addressed and referred to as 'creator' (aciek) and 'my father' (wa), and prayers and sacrifice are offered to it.[7]

Regarding the attributes of nhialic:

It would be easy, it is true, to translate nhialic aciek and nhialic wa as 'God the creator' and 'God (my) father', for the attributes of nhialic and 'God' there closely coincide, as do many others - unity, power, justice, 'highness', for example.[8]

In Dinka there are important interconnexions between notions of creation and of fatherhood, through the verb 'to create' is never interchangeable with the verb 'to beget'. Divinity (i.e., nhialic) created (cak) men in the beginning, and the men he created begot or bore (dhieth) children. Divinity did not 'beget' or 'bear' men, and it would be a linguistic mistake in Dinka either to use this express for the creation of men by Divinity, or to say that father and mother 'created' their child. Dhieth means both 'to beget' and 'to give birth to', so that verbally the activities of men and women in procreation are not distinguished from each other. When a man was asked to explain what happened in coitus, he described the physical act, and added 'And that is called begetting (dhieth), and Divinity will then slowly create (cak) the child in woman's belly.'[9]

And, of course, it goes without saying that when the woman is barren, it means that the Divinity has 'refused' her a child.

Other attributes of Divinity are the Absolute Truth and the Judge.

Divinity is specially needed to intervene in human affairs, to put them straight by making the truth appear. Wet nhialic, the 'word' of Divinity, is the truth, or what really and absolutely is so; and the Dinka think that in certain circumstances men may speak this totally objective 'word', representing to others the true nature of things, whether of present, past, of future situations. Cit nhialic, 'like Divinity' or 'as Divinity', is one of the common expressions men used to guarantee the truth of what they say, and 'Divinity will see' is what any Dinka will say if he suspects another of lying or cheating him and can take no further action of his own in the matter. In some of the invocations reproduced later it will be seen that Divinity is made the final judge or right or wrong, even when men feel sure that they are right. Divinity is thus the guardian of truth - and sometimes signifies to men what really is the case, behind or beyond their errors and falsehoods.[10]

The author went on to say:

The Dinka have no problem with the prospering sinner, for they are sure that Divinity will ultimately bring justice. Since among them every man at some time must meet with suffering and misfortune, death or disease among his family or his cattle, there is always evidence, for those who wish to refer to it, of divine justice. It is a serious matter when a man calls on Divinity to judge between him and another, so seriously that only a fool would take the risks involved if he knew he was in the wrong, and to call upon Divinity as witness gives the man who does so an initial presumption of being in the right.[11]

Divinity is also considered as the supreme being.

Nhialic, Divinity, has no plural; it is both singular and plural in intention.[12]

Some interesting thoughts of Dinka about the Divinity:

Divinity is 'in the above', and what rises into the sky thus approaches Divinity. I have been asked whether an aeroplane ever touches the sky, and if Divinity can be seen from it. This is a clear indication that the Dinka can regard Divinity as distinct from the 'physical' sky, for the sky itself can obviously be seen from the earth. The way in which terrestrail being may approach Divinity is by going high, by levitation, or sometimes by building a mound or 'pyramid'. There are many reports of the rising of holy men into the sky, and sometimes by those who claim that special relations have been established between divinity and themselves. Conversely, Divinity makes contact with the earth by falling, or by letting something fall, or by hurling something down. Such contacts are made in rain, lightning, comets and meteorites, and also in free-divinites which fall and possess men. All these are manifestations of Divinity.[13]

How about the beginning of relationship of Dinka and Divinity?

Logically, and for the Dinka historically, their relations with Divinity begin with a story of the supposed conjunction, and then division, of the earth and the sky - the emergence of their world as it is.[14]

Dinka, to our surprise, have their own 'version' of Adam and Eve story, i.e., the first human beings on the earth.

One of the myths of the separation of earth and sky already given shows that the Dinka also have the idea that Divinity originally created a pair, Garang and Abuk, from whom all men are descended.[15]

The first human beings, usually called Garang and Abuk, living on earth had to take care when they were doing their little planting or pounding, lest a hoe or a pestle should strike Divinity, but one day the woman 'because she was greedy' (in this context any Dinka would view her 'greed' indulgently) decided to plant (or pound) more than the permitted grain of millet. In order to do so she took one of the long-handled hoes (or pestles) which the Dinka now use. In raising this pole to pound or cultivate, she struck Divinity who withdrew, offended, to present great distance from the earth, and sent a small blue bird (the colour od the sky) called atoc to sever the rope which had previously given the men access to the sky and to him. Since that time the country has been 'spoilt', for men have to labour for the food they need, and are often hungry. They can no longer as before freely reach Divinity, and they suffer sickness and death, which thus accompany their abrupt separation from Divinity.[16]

There are, of course, other 'versions' of the same story as described above.

From what we have seen above, it is clear that Monotheism existed among the tribes. And when Muslims encounter the Monotheism, we say, subhânallah, this is what Allah mentions in the Qur'ân. We have to look for His Signs as Allah says:

Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (Qur'ân 41:53)

And Allah knows best!
Is the Buddha one of Allah's messengers?
If he is, why did he teach "another doctrines" that Islam doesn't support, such as reincarnation?
 

Todd

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So, how long is the length of "eternal life"?
"aionios" is used too for the phrase "eternal life" - "ζωην αιωνιον"/"zoen aionion"
I contend that the promise we as believers have, is that we will have life for the ages to come. That life will last as long as it takes for God to reconcile all things and then for Christ to hand the Kingdom over back to God when God will become "all in all". I have no idea how long that will be...

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

During the "life of the ages to come" that we are promised, we will reign with Christ (as his body) till he puts all his enemines under his feet. Who are we going to regin over? The unbelievers who will be coming out of their time in the "Lake of Fire". Whether that lake of fire is literal or just a metaphor for God's correction and purification remains to be seen.

The life of the ages to come is not "eternal" in the sense of forever. After all these things are done and the last enemy, death, is destroyed, Christ will deliver the kingdom back to God and God will be all in all (both believers who regined with Chrsit and unbelievers who come out of the purification and correction process) .
 

Todd

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If the unknowing gentiles are saved too, there is no need to evangelize them.

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

The joke pokes fun of a real conundrum: it would obviously be unfair for God to condemn these people for not accepting Jesus when they’d never heard of him, but at the same time, now that they’ve heard of him, their eternal souls are put at risk.

https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/28-if-someone-never-hears-the-gospel-can-they-still-go-to-heaven/
Of course we still need to evangelize. I would still rather see people come to God in this age, so that they can enjoy the "life of the ages to come" rather than suffer any amount of time in the correction and purification of God in the ages to come. That processs as described in the Bible still does not sound like something I want to go through. I'd rather see people take up God's offer of salvation now, then go through all that in the ages to come.

Your logical conundrum actually works to make the case for Apokatastasis.
 

Mr. Blah

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I contend that the promise we as believers have, is that we will have life for the ages to come. That life will last as long as it takes for God to reconcile all things and then for Christ to hand the Kingdom over back to God when God will become "all in all". I have no idea how long that will be...

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

During the "life of the ages to come" that we are promised, we will reign with Christ (as his body) till he puts all his enemines under his feet. Who are we going to regin over? The unbelievers who will be coming out of their time in the "Lake of Fire". Whether that lake of fire is literal or just a metaphor for God's correction and purification remains to be seen.

The life of the ages to come is not "eternal" in the sense of forever. After all these things are done and the last enemy, death, is destroyed, Christ will deliver the kingdom back to God and God will be all in all (both believers who regined with Chrsit and unbelievers who come out of the purification and correction process) .
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What do you think about the verse above?
Does the word "Everlasting" mean everlasting?
 

Todd

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Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What do you think about the verse above?
Does the word "Everlasting" mean everlasting?
No, not necessarily. It's the hebrew word owlam.

Instead of posting it again I'll just direct you to the thread were I hashed this out with someone else.
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/can-a-christian-lose-salvation.342/page-14#post-17573
 
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Is the Buddha one of Allah's messengers?
If he is, why did he teach "another doctrines" that Islam doesn't support, such as reincarnation?
I don't know if Buddha is one of Allah's Messengers. He is not mentioned as one in the Quran or Sunnah. God says:

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]. And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech. [We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
 
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