ABSURDITIES AND CRUELTIES OF THE "CHRISTIAN" RELIGION (PART I)

[shankara]

Spiritual wisdom and insight--

Like what?

Like everything that Christ says? The Sermon on the Mount, for one example.

I think the Harry Potter / Rosicrucian perspective represents the Christ Consciousness narrative fairly clearly. It is not about pure egoism as might be misunderstood but simply attaining the character and mind of Christ on your own without the need for repentance and salvation. Before you respond, spend at least five minutes tying to pull yourself up by your shoelaces!

I don't know about the Rosicrucian doctrine but definitely in the Gnosticism there is the need for what you would term "repentance", what we might call "working on oneself" but it boils down to the same thing. And yes, we do need the help of the (Inner) Christ.

We don't however believe that Christ "takes on" all of our sins in the same way as you do, that He is the bridge across the impassible chasm between humanity and God. There is forgiveness if we work on ourselves, but there is also Karma which needs to be paid.

I worked with a man for almost 40 years. I would witness to him about the Lord many times. His answer to me was, "I'm just as good as anyone else." I preached his funeral last year with sadness in my heart. Because Death is not the end!

All religious people understand this, that we must be prepared for Death and that being simply a "normal person" isn't enough. It's not only Christians that see this.

 

[Faker He-Man]

I think the Harry Potter / Rosicrucian perspective represents the Christ Consciousness narrative fairly clearly. It is not about pure egoism as might be misunderstood but simply attaining the character and mind of Christ on your own without the need for repentance and salvation. Before you respond, spend at least five minutes tying to pull yourself up by your shoelaces!

the narrative you speak of is intentionally misleading. We are sovereign entities on a path of advancement, yet it is also true that the ego would enjoy taking credit for advancement as you mentioned but you also want to separate this idea from egoism for some reason. When the ego pats itself on the back we do not gain awareness, we actually lose awareness, so it’s self-defeating. Like climbing a single rung on a ladder only to slip and fall back down.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

the narrative you speak of is intentionally misleading. We are sovereign entities on a path of advancement, yet it is also true that the ego would enjoy taking credit for advancement as you mentioned but you also want to separate this idea from egoism for some reason. When the ego pats itself on the back we do not gain awareness, we actually lose awareness, so it’s self-defeating. Like climbing a single rung on a ladder only to slip and fall back down.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood - in order to be "Christlike" do you acknowledge the need for a saviour, repentance and the new birth?

 

[shankara]

God went to great pains to assert HIS superiority and sovereignty over the pagan gods of the ancient world and to create clear distinction between how He was to be worshipped by his people and the practices of idol-worshippers.

I think there is a difference between real religion and worshipping dark forces for personal gain. The Abrahamic Religions are in fact religions, they uplift and inspire humanity in a certain way, whereas making human sacrifices to Moloch wouldn't be a real religion at all.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood - in order to be "Christlike" do you acknowledge the need for a saviour, repentance and the new birth?

These ideas are corrupted religious perceptions of the undistorted truth. They are just the gravy, not the meat. Being "Christlike" is simply accessing the "christ consciousness", which is what we automatically do in those moments when we are genuinely unselfish. This comes first and foremost, anything else is just gravy, or "fruits of the spirit".

The corrupted idea of being "saved", "born again", a "good christian" etc through repentance and humility is also (paradoxically) merely for the purpose of placating the ego. The ego loves to believe it is the only entity and that it can exist eternally, but it simply cannot because it's only an illusion in the first place.

Consider that humans have historically done far more harm in the name of "righteousness" than by their own greed or ignorance. This is because the ego can easily be trained to completely avoid experiencing the appropriate guilt by perceiving a harmful action as righteous or holy.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

These ideas are corrupted religious perceptions of the undistorted truth. They are just the gravy, not the meat.

Could you explain how you came to this conclusion. I have often heard it asserted but rarely substantiated.

Being "Christlike" is simply accessing the "christ consciousness", which is what we automatically do in those moments when we are genuinely unselfish. This comes first and foremost, anything else is just gravy, or "fruits of the spirit".

I am intrigued here. Could you expand on the attributes we would move closer to should we embrace this "Christ Consciousness".

The corrupted idea of being "saved", "born again", a "good christian" etc through repentance and humility is also (paradoxically) merely for the purpose of placating the ego.

What do you think Jesus actually meant by his words in John 3:16?

The ego loves to believe it is the only entity and that it can exist eternally, but it simply cannot because it's only an illusion in the first place.

i understand the Hindu concept of Maya and the "embrace that smothers" as Atman is supposedly subsumed into Brahman. I am hoping for rather more from eternal life that just being a drop that dissappear into the "cosmic consciousness".

Consider that humans have historically done far more harm in the name of "righteousness" than by their own greed or ignorance. This is because the ego can easily be trained to completely avoid experiencing the appropriate guilt by perceiving a harmful action as righteous or holy.

I don't think the subjective use humans have made of the justification of righteousness says anything about the objective reality of a righteous God.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Could you explain how you came to this conclusion. I have often heard it asserted but rarely substantiated.

"How can these things be?" Ahh the ever-questioning carnal intellect.

I am intrigued here. Could you expand on the attributes we would move closer to should we embrace this "Christ Consciousness".

Goodwill firmly rooted in the desire to be unselfish.

What do you think Jesus actually meant by his words in John 3:16?

I hope you don't mind if we back up a bit to include some of the context. Do you believe Jesus even when he says that you can become capable of "seeing the kingdom of God"? (3:3) Where is this kingdom? Are you looking outward or inward? (3:6) Does Jesus ask us to simply believe in him and take his word for it, or does he instead encourage us to attain actual awareness of "heavenly things" so that we may see for ourselves? (3:11) Are we only supposed to merely believe in Jesus without bothering to attain this awareness, or do you suppose it's also possible for the carnal mind to access the vibration of christ consciousness by following his example, and be lifted up with/through Christ into an entirely new awareness?

If not, what do you suppose it means to be born anew, and why does Jesus make a comparison with birth? Also, why does he compare those who are born anew with the wind (which "blows wherever it will")?? (3:8)

Why must the son of man be "lifted up", and what does this mean exactly? 3:14

i understand the Hindu concept of Maya and the "embrace that smothers" as Atman is supposedly subsumed into Brahman. I am hoping for rather more from eternal life that just being a drop that dissappear into the "cosmic consciousness".

Ego death is just that. It's not like disappearing into nothing, it's more like a full recognition of the absolute unity and completeness of All That Exists. Do you perceive eternal life as something that has a beginning point which you are currently waiting for? If so, how can something that hasn't yet begun really be eternal?

I don't think the subjective use humans have made of the justification of righteousness says anything about the objective reality of a righteous God.

Right, but it says a whole lot about humans who attempt sublimation of their identity via the idea of servitude.

 

[elsbet]

Like everything that Christ says? The Sermon on the Mount, for one example.

Soo... spiritual wisdom and Insight are found, in your opinion, in --

Everything He said​

and​

The Sermon on the Mount ​

Terribly broad.
Can you give even one example, I wonder? Because we already know you don't believe Everything He said, based on the thread's title--

Looks like you dont really know the material.

 

[elsbet]

I think there is a difference between real religion and worshipping dark forces for personal gain. The Abrahamic Religions are in fact religions, they uplift and inspire humanity in a certain way, whereas making human sacrifices to Moloch wouldn't be a real religion at all.

Sure it would.

​

religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.​

It was done, faithfully-- and these pagan religions often put the Christian label on their continued efforts in human sacrifice to the old gods. Take the Inquisition.

 

[shankara]

Soo... spiritual wisdom and Insight are found, in your opinion, in --

Everything He said​

and​

The Sermon on the Mount ​

Terribly broad.
Can you give even one example, I wonder? Because we already know you don't believe Everything He said, based on the thread's title--

Looks like you dont really know the material.

I have no disagreement with the sayings of Christ, only with their interpretation by mainstream Christians.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I have no disagreement with the sayings of Christ, only with their interpretation by mainstream Christians.

Do you think those conclusions are theologically incorrect within the wider understanding of the Bible, or do simply dislike those conclusions and prefer more esoteric interpretations?

 

[shankara]

Do you think those conclusions are theologically incorrect within the wider understanding of the Bible, or do simply dislike those conclusions and prefer more esoteric interpretations?

Well for one I have to reconcile everything with the notion of Just Divinity. The mainstream Christian divinity simply is not so. I think that the Bible does refer to the incarnation of Christ etc., but that there are a lot of things hidden, not revealed too obviously. I'm not a Theologian so I can't account for all of the ways in which the scripture is interpreted but essentially I believe that Christ incarnated in order to perform in reality that internal drama we all must go through if we follow a spiritual path i.e. Ego-Death and Spiritual Rebirth.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Well for one I have to reconcile everything with the notion of Just Divinity. The mainstream Christian divinity simply is not so. I think that the Bible does refer to the incarnation of Christ etc., but that there are a lot of things hidden, not revealed too obviously. I'm not a Theologian so I can't account for all of the ways in which the scripture is interpreted but essentially I believe that Christ incarnated in order to perform in reality that internal drama we all must go through if we follow a spiritual path i.e. Ego-Death and Spiritual Rebirth.

Would I get right in saying that you believe in something more akin to James Joyce's concept of the "Monomyth" / Joseph Campbell's "Heroes Journey"

 

[shankara]

Would I get right in saying that you believe in something more akin to James Joyce's concept of the "Monomyth" / Joseph Campbell's "Heroes Journey"

Sure, I suppose that's one way of putting it. But I do think that some form of spiritual practice is necessary. I guess it's primarily an internal "Heroes Journey", not going and colonizing a country or getting rich or something like that.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sure, I suppose that's one way of putting it. But I do think that some form of spiritual practice is necessary. I guess it's primarily an internal "Heroes Journey", not going and colonizing a country or getting rich or something like that.

Interesting response. Just picking up on the last sentence though, would you conceed that there is a marked difference between the political purposes cynical or greedy people have put Christianity to and the actual message of the Gospel?

 

[shankara]

Interesting response. Just picking up on the last sentence though, would you conceed that there is a marked difference between the political purposes cynical or greedy people have put Christianity to and the actual message of the Gospel?

Absolutely.