ABSURDITIES AND CRUELTIES OF THE "CHRISTIAN" RELIGION (PART I)

[Wigi]

I disagree. DIVINITY is REASON. We can have knowledge that Divinity exists by Reason, and we can have knowledge about the nature of Divinity by Reason. It is Reason that is "created in the image of God".​

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We can come to this knowledge but Christianity is much more deeper that knowing God by reason.

It's also this intimate relationship with His Spirit, something that finite beings like us can't comprehend by reason but through faith.


"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
Philippians 4:6‭-‬7

This is all that really matters in the end and I don't know words that could describe this experience more accurately than "I feel God's presence and He loves me"

I know it sounds weird and naive but reason can't understand this so I gave up trying to explain God's nature by human reasonings.

 

[shankara]

​

​

We can come to this knowledge but Christianity is much more deeper that knowing God by reason.

It's also this intimate relationship with His Spirit, something that finite beings like us can't comprehend by reason but through faith.


"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
Philippians 4:6‭-‬7

This is all that really matters in the end and I don't know words that could describe this experience more accurately than "I feel God's presence and He loves me"

I know it sounds weird and naive but reason can't understand this so I gave up trying to explain God's nature by human reasonings.

And you think that people of other religions don't have the same feeling of the Presence of Divinity?

 

[elsbet]

Well everything has a reflection, a shadow side. But UNITY, understanding that we are all worshipping the same thing in different ways...​

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Who told you that?

Have you considered the very reasonable idea that the division and conflict arose in the beginning (and I mean THE Beginning) precisely because we are NOT all worshiping the same "thing," as you put it?

​

I disagree. DIVINITY is REASON. We can have knowledge that Divinity exists by Reason, and we can have knowledge about the nature of Divinity by Reason. It is Reason that is "created in the image of God".

What is Reason created in the image of God? The definition of Reason, among men, is subjective-- many say that Reason tells us there is no God, or if He exists, He is an evil tyrant... or worse-- unknowable. So we can't really say that, in this discussion.

Divinity by Reason is a philosophical exercise (so much navel-gazing) which, ime, typically leads to deviation, if not complete separation, from the authentic, personal and entirely relationship-oriented nature of our God... and that is its purpose.

On this statement--

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UNITY... is generally better than it's opposite, DIVISION.​

I wholly disagree. Unity is beneficial or detrimental, depending on the banner under which everyone is united. Nazi Germany comes to mind..

 

[phipps]

Gnosticism doesn't deny the validity of the Four Gospels or Revelation. Nor is it necessarily saying that all of the Dead Sea Scrolls etc are legitimate. But we do understand the aforementioned influence of the ROMAN IMPERIUM on what went into the Bible... Personally I would say that the influence was pretty much in the negative, not including things which should have been included rather than including things which should not be included. So I'm not against people basing things on the Bible but I think it's a shame not to look beyond that one book...

EDIT: Also there were Christians before what we now know as the Bible existed...

I used to look beyond the Bible and nothing good ever came of it.

I know the early Christians in the Bible did not have the complete Bible as we do today with the New Testament. Also during the dark ages and renaissance when the Catholic Church persecuted Christians, they didn't have complete Bibles but the little they had was enough for them to put their lives on the line for Christ.

 

[shankara]

​

Who told you that?

Have you considered the very reasonable idea that the division and conflict arose in the beginning (and I mean THE Beginning) precisely because we are NOT all worshiping the same "thing," as you put it?

No, I think that it is essentially the Dark Forces which divide us. All human beings are one family but we fight, and often because of contradictory religious dogmas. If we got beyond the dogmas we would be closer to realizing true fraternity, which is exactly what the Dark Forces are afraid of, humanity uniting against them...

On this statement--

​

UNITY... is generally better than it's opposite, DIVISION.​

I wholly disagree. Unity is beneficial or detrimental, depending on the banner under which everyone is united. Nazi Germany comes to mind..

"Divide And Conquer" is the motto of the tyrant. The Nazi thing was also based on division, the "pure Aryan" Germans vs the other races and peoples.

What is Reason created in the image of God? The definition of Reason, among men, is subjective-- many say that Reason tells us there is no God, or if He exists, He is an evil tyrant... or worse-- unknowable. So we can't really say that, in this discussion.

Divinity by Reason is a philosophical exercise (so much navel-gazing) which, ime, typically leads to deviation, if not complete separation, from the authentic, personal and entirely relationship-oriented nature of our God... and that is its purpose.

"Deviation" sounds very inquisitorial. Basically you want other people to believe what you believe because anyone who doesn't think the same thing as you, you believe to be damned to Eternal Suffering. Personally I don't have that concern and think that everyone is, and should, be on their own path, whether they are Evolving or Involuting, Ascending or Descending. Telling people what to think doesn't help them at all.

It's true, however, that REASON needs the yoke of Spirituality to plough the field of Insight.

 

[DavidSon]

@shankara

There are also Unitarian Christians, in the the present and in times past. I consider myself a type of Unitarian and I think you'd find this form more palatable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism


"Although there is no specific authority on convictions of Unitarian belief aside from rejection of the Trinity, the following beliefs are generally accepted:

• One God and the oneness or unity of God.
• The life and teachings of Jesus Christ constitute the exemplar model for living one's own life.
• Reason, rational thought, science, and philosophy coexist with faith in God.
• Humans have the ability to exercise free will in a responsible, constructive and ethical manner with the assistance of religion.
• Human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved (original sin) but capable of both good and evil, as God intended.
• No religion can claim an absolute monopoly on the Holy Spirit or theological truth.
• Though the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, they were humans and therefore subject to human error.
• The traditional doctrines of predestination, eternal damnation, and the vicarious sacrifice and satisfaction theories of the Atonement are invalid because they malign God's character and veil the true nature and mission of Jesus Christ.

Unitarians have liberal views of God, Jesus, the world and purpose of life as revealed through reason, scholarship, science, philosophy, scripture and other prophets and religions. They believe that reason and belief are complementary and that religion and science can co-exist and guide them in their understanding of nature and God. They also do not enforce belief in creeds or dogmatic formulas. Although there is flexibility in the nuances of belief or basic truths for the individual Unitarian Christian, general principles of faith have been recognized as a way to bind the group in some commonality.

Unitarian Christians reject the doctrine of some Christian denominations that God chooses to redeem or save only those certain individuals that accept the creeds of, or affiliate with, a specific church or religion, from a common ruin or corruption of the mass of humanity.

In 1938, The Christian leader attributed "the religion of Jesus, not a religion about Jesus" to Unitarians, though the phrase was used ...earlier still by US President Thomas Jefferson."

 

[elsbet]

No, I think that it is essentially the Dark Forces which divide us. All human beings are one family but we fight, and often because of contradictory religious dogmas. If we got beyond the dogmas we would be closer to realizing true fraternity, which is exactly what the Dark Forces are afraid of, humanity uniting against them...

This a reiteration of the OP... /shrug

"Deviation" sounds very inquisitorial. Basically you want other people to believe what you believe because anyone who doesn't think the same thing as you, you believe to be damned to Eternal Suffering.

I didn't say anything that even resembles that statement, or even the sentiment. What part of my response, exactly, gives you that idea?

Or did you make it up?

 

[shankara]

@shankara

There are also Unitarian Christians, in the the present and in times past. I consider myself a type of Unitarian and I think you'd find this form more palatable? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Sounds pretty sane and human to me.

The Mormons have some not dissimilar ideas actually, they don't really think that anyone is ultimately not saved. Came across this quote today from them:

The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. . . .We believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation

I didn't say anything that even resembles that statement, or even the sentiment. What part of my response, exactly, gives you that idea?

Or did you make it up?

Isn't that the doctrine of the Christian Church? "Believe and be saved", i.e. don't think something different about Christ. Sorry if I wrongly assumed that it was a doctrine you hold.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I think it's very important that people reach the stage of comprehending how one thing can be understood in many different ways and still be one thing.



I don't know that it's necessarily so difficult to believe in the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection (at least for me personally) but when it's combined with absurd doctrines like Eternal Damnation... Buddhism is just a lot more LOGICAL.



That is basically what I mean, yes. But though I respect "Bible Believers" and sincere followers of the Christ, I think there is an esoteric ascpect of His doctrine which you aren't appreciating.



Predestination is basically essential to the Protestant doctrine. It's an attempt to make a doctrine that doesn't make sense, make sense, though in the end it also doesn't make sense.



I'm not condoning homosexuality. I'm simply saying that those people are that way for reasons of Karma, they aren't created by God simply to be sent to Hell.



I believe absolutely in Rebirth, Transmigration, and am going to deal with that subject more thoroughly in my next article. Without Rebirth any doctrine is incoherent.



Shantih.

Where do you get the idea that predestination is a Biblical doctrine?

It’s not.

It is a Calvinist belief, but it isn’t Biblical.

Show me some Scripture to prove it.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Sounds pretty sane and human to me.

The Mormons have some not dissimilar ideas actually, they don't really think that anyone is ultimately not saved. Came across this quote today from them:




Isn't that the doctrine of the Christian Church? "Believe and be saved", i.e. don't think something different about Christ. Sorry if I wrongly assumed that it was a doctrine you hold.

Mormons are not Bible-believing Christians; they are a cult, so it’s not surprising that they would appeal to the writings of philosophers & other men, instead of believing the Word of God.

Stay away from any sect that gets their beliefs from mere men instead of the Bible.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Well everything has a reflection, a shadow side. But UNITY, understanding that we are all worshipping the same thing in different ways, is generally better than it's opposite, DIVISION. Also, Buddhism is effectively Godless (ok, it's actually a little complicated) but is still a positive spiritual path.​

I disagree. DIVINITY is REASON. We can have knowledge that Divinity exists by Reason, and we can have knowledge about the nature of Divinity by Reason. It is Reason that is "created in the image of God".

Man is created in the image of God. God’s “reason”, thinking & wisdom is so far above ours that we cannot fully comprehend it....He is THE Creator, and we are merely His creation.

I don’t know about you, but I am content with that, and I do not feel like I have to elevate myself to God’s level (which is impossible) for Him to be valid.

 

[elsbet]

Isn't that the doctrine of the Christian Church? "Believe and be saved", i.e. don't think something different about Christ...

No, it isn't.

 

[DavidSon]

Where do you get the idea that predestination is a Biblical doctrine?

It’s not.

It is a Calvinist belief, but it isn’t Biblical.

Show me some Scripture to prove it.

I just saw @phipps post also saying that "predestination" isn't Biblical, but it very much is. In several instances we read in Scripture that the Almighty brought about events or caused ones to fail/ascend. He hardened the pharaoh's heart, hardened the heart of Israel His Servant at times. Jesus quoting Isaiah relates to the same idea, that we all are under God's Will-

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."- JOHN 12:40

These verses of Paul are also a source of debate on the specifics of predestination-

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." - ROMANS 8:28-30

As I said earlier, I don't think these concepts are that controversial. Even Calvin's belief in double predestination (that sinners and the saved are both foreknown by God) is not difficult to consider. What spiritual minded person hasn't thought, "Did I choose God or did God choose me?" Wouldn't the Most High already know what we're about to do? I read Sunni Muslims believe 100% in predestination, by their faith that God is omnipotent and omniscient- all is known by God.

None of this takes away from the paradox of free will, and all religious people acknowledge some balance of these truths. I think this is a proper summary by Bishop Theophan the Recluse in response to the question, "What is the relationship between the Divine provision and our free will?"

"The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort. When the Apostle Paul says, "it is not of him that willeth," this means that one's efforts do not produce what is sought. It is necessary to combine them: to strive and to expect all things from grace. It is not one's own efforts that will lead to the goal, because without grace, efforts produce little; nor does grace without effort bring what is sought, because grace acts in us and for us through our efforts. Both combine in a person to bring progress and carry him to the goal. (God's) foreknowledge is unfathomable. It is enough for us with our whole heart to believe that it never opposes God's grace and truth, and that it does not infringe man's freedom. Usually this resolves as follows: God foresees how a man will freely act and makes dispositions accordingly. Divine determination depends on the life of a man, and not his life upon the determination."

Man is created in the image of God. God’s “reason”, thinking & wisdom is so far above ours that we cannot fully comprehend it....He is THE Creator, and we are merely His creation.

I don’t know about you, but I am content with that, and I do not feel like I have to elevate myself to God’s level (which is impossible) for Him to be valid.

Well said! I agree, our intelligence or "reason" is probably just a particle compared to the mind of Great God.

Back to shankara's OP I think it would be more accurate to state that reason is PART of the image we are made in. Logic has it's place but surely it melts away when we're singing, listening to poetry, or kicked back looking at the stars. There's much to life where reasoning is irrelevant. Also, I ask this: how is the question of predestination more illogical than the theory of reincarnation? That if you're greedy in this life you'll return in the next as a pig or dog...

 

[phipps]

I just saw @phipps post also saying that "predestination" isn't Biblical, but it very much is. In several instances we read in Scripture that the Almighty brought about events or caused ones to fail/ascend. He hardened the pharaoh's heart, hardened the heart of Israel His Servant at times. Jesus quoting Isaiah relates to the same idea, that we all are under God's Will-

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."- JOHN 12:40

These verses of Paul are also a source of debate on the specifics of predestination-

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." - ROMANS 8:28-30

As I said earlier, I don't think these concepts are that controversial. Even Calvin's belief in double predestination (that sinners and the saved are both foreknown by God) is not difficult to consider. What spiritual minded person hasn't thought, "Did I choose God or did God choose me?" Wouldn't the Most High already know what we're about to do? I read Sunni Muslims believe 100% in predestination, by their faith that God is omnipotent and omniscient- all is known by God.

None of this takes away from the paradox of free will, and all religious people acknowledge some balance of these truths. I think this is a proper summary by Bishop Theophan the Recluse in response to the question, "What is the relationship between the Divine provision and our free will?"

"The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort. When the Apostle Paul says, "it is not of him that willeth," this means that one's efforts do not produce what is sought. It is necessary to combine them: to strive and to expect all things from grace. It is not one's own efforts that will lead to the goal, because without grace, efforts produce little; nor does grace without effort bring what is sought, because grace acts in us and for us through our efforts. Both combine in a person to bring progress and carry him to the goal. (God's) foreknowledge is unfathomable. It is enough for us with our whole heart to believe that it never opposes God's grace and truth, and that it does not infringe man's freedom. Usually this resolves as follows: God foresees how a man will freely act and makes dispositions accordingly. Divine determination depends on the life of a man, and not his life upon the determination."



Well said! I agree, our intelligence or "reason" is probably just a particle compared to the mind of Great God.

Back to shankara's OP I think it would be more accurate to state that reason is PART of the image we are made in. Logic has it's place but surely it melts away when we're singing, listening to poetry, or kicked back looking at the stars. There's much to life where reasoning is irrelevant. Also, I ask this: how is the question of predestination more illogical than the theory of reincarnation? That if you're greedy in this life you'll return in the next as a pig or dog...

Every time someone argues for Predestination the first verses they bring up are of Pharaoh's heart being hardened then Paul's writings.

The Bible says in Exodus 4:21 "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

Exodus 9:12, "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

But then in Exodus 8:15 says, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."

It is important to note that people often react very differently to God's actions. For example, let's imagine that God invoked some calamity on people as a judgment for their sin. Some people would respond and repent. Many would simply harden their hearts and blame God. Thus, by bringing about this calamity, some might be saved, but God could be said to have indirectly hardened the hearts of others. Of course, sometimes you don't need calamity. For instance, evangelism has the same result. Each time the Gospel is preached, people are brought to a point of decision. Some accept the truth and are changed by it, while others reject it. Since we are creatures of habit, every decision against the truth makes it easier to reject it the next time.

Another explanation for this apparent contradiction could be in the way the verse is read. One could read it as God making the action of hardening Pharaoh's heart. But it could also be said that God (indirectly) hardened Pharaoh’s heart by forcing Pharaoh to respond. Just as exercise strengthens muscles, repeated rejection of truth strengthens rebellion. God hit Egypt with ten plagues, each one designed to challenge the Egyptians’ belief in their gods. With every new plague, Pharaoh was presented with evidence that the Hebrews’ God was real and powerful while Egypt’s gods were imaginary and powerless.

Each plague presented Pharaoh with an opportunity to accept truth and yield to God or reject truth and become more stubborn and hardened in heart. He repeatedly exercised his choice to reject truth and God’s mercy and strengthened his stubborn will until his proud heart could not be moved, even when threatened with the death of his son. With each plague, God forced Pharaoh to make a choice. So in this sense, God’s actions pushed Pharaoh to act and it could be said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart by pressing him to make a choice and allowing him to choose. At the same time, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by making his choices against God.

The same could be applied to John 12:40 too. If we read from verse 37 it says, "But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” " The Jews repeatedly rejected God no matter how many signs He did in front of them. So their hearts were hardened with every rejection until they got to the point of no return. Why the Bible uses the words "God hardened their hearts" I don't know. But its always our choice to reject God.

In Romans 8:28-30 and other verses from Paul's writings, Paul is saying that God wants everyone to be saved. Those who respond to the invitation, He then transforms. Paul wrote, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness" (Romans 6:16-18). You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval. Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.

Paul is the same one who also wrote, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4). So God desires that all be saved.

We are told in John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Paul does not contradict Jesus. His writings can be hard to understand but the idea that God is willing that some perish is a false teaching and Paul definitely does NOT mean that Romans 8:28-30. Jesus died to save us all not some. Jesus said in John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”" And in Revelation He declares, “Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” We either have free will or we don't. There are no exceptions to the rule.

The subject is controversial and it says something that is against God's character. Is it really fair to say that God predestined some to eternal life and some to eternal death? Are we robots programmed to either work or fail? Can robots love willingly? When Satan sinned in heaven, did God create him to rebel? Then when God says He created Lucifer perfect, is He lying to us? Predestination is inconsistent with the word of God. God's foreknowledge does not interfere with our free will.

God chose all of us, we are the ones who don't always choose Him and eventually God accepts our choices. Just like Pharaoh and Israel, we all have and get many chances to accept God but if we reject Him over and over our hearts will harden. It becomes easier and easier to reject God over time because we grieve away the Holy spirit.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

"Do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19).

When we continually grieve the Holy Spirit, His power is diminished in our lives. On the flip side, His power is strengthened in our lives when we follow what God has said.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14).

 

[Dalit]

At the same time, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by making his choices against God.

Why the Bible uses the words "God hardened their hearts" I don't know. But its always our choice to reject God.

Yes, I agree. I think because God knows our choices, to accept or reject Him, maybe He lets us have what we want there and, in a sense, He lets us be hardened (if we so choose to be) so we won't be even more condemned. Yet He desires that all be saved by all coming to repentance. That might sound like I'm stretching a bit, yet I've thought about this long and hard and have heard other scholarly commentary on such.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Every time someone argues for Predestination the first verses they bring up are of Pharaoh's heart being hardened then Paul's writings.

The Bible says in Exodus 4:21 "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

Exodus 9:12, "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

But then in Exodus 8:15 says, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."

God is sovereign. Who are we to instruct God or tell Him what or how to do things? (Rom. 9:1-33) He blinds them by turning them over to their own reasoning to suffer the rejection of the creator. (Rom. 1:16-32). The reason people can not find the Truth is the same reason a thief can not find the cops....they are not looking for them.

 

[shankara]

Man is created in the image of God. God’s “reason”, thinking & wisdom is so far above ours that we cannot fully comprehend it....He is THE Creator, and we are merely His creation.

I don’t know about you, but I am content with that, and I do not feel like I have to elevate myself to God’s level (which is impossible) for Him to be valid.

Sure, there is always danger if intellect is divorced from spirituality. Yet if our reason is guided by the heart, which itself is guided by spiritual practise, the intellect becomes a liberating force, something that leads us towards Truth.

Where do you get the idea that predestination is a Biblical doctrine?

It’s not.

It is a Calvinist belief, but it isn’t Biblical.

Show me some Scripture to prove it.

It may not be Biblical, in fact I don't think it is. But it is a fundamental doctrine of many forms of Protestantism and something which a lot of people believe. I'm not against the Bible, I'm against erroneous and foolish dogmas.

Mormons are not Bible-believing Christians; they are a cult, so it’s not surprising that they would appeal to the writings of philosophers & other men, instead of believing the Word of God.

Stay away from any sect that gets their beliefs from mere men instead of the Bible.

I take my beliefs from Buddhist Sutras, so I'm not so worried... The Bible is a legitimate Divine Revelation, the Christ is the highest teacher, but there are other valid Revelations.

Well said! I agree, our intelligence or "reason" is probably just a particle compared to the mind of Great God.

Back to shankara's OP I think it would be more accurate to state that reason is PART of the image we are made in. Logic has it's place but surely it melts away when we're singing, listening to poetry, or kicked back looking at the stars. There's much to life where reasoning is irrelevant. Also, I ask this: how is the question of predestination more illogical than the theory of reincarnation? That if you're greedy in this life you'll return in the next as a pig or dog...

You speak about singing, I personally very much like classical music. It's true that the heart in the music is beyond mere intellection (because the intellect should always be guided by the heart, and the heart always guided by spiritual practise) but the laws of counterpoint and musical harmony are not dissimilar to mathematics, they are Reasonable.

Predestination is a totally different thing to being born in an animal body. God has not foreordained that anyone be born in an animal body, though there are perhaps people so conditioned that they're unlikely to arrive anywhere else... But no-one is condemned to be born as an animal for eternity, it's just a Karmic Lesson which will pass like all Karmic lessons (everything passes). Anyway, I'm going to deal with Rebirth in Part II.

 

[Camidria]

@shankara my question is, how do you think it will be ever possible for all belief systems to come to a place where they agree like you said that they all worship the same but differently?

My one friend @Red Sky at Morning posted this and I think it is very relevant here: CONTRADICT

https://contradictmovement.org/pages/what-does-this-mean

Religious Contradictions

Reincarnation (Hinduism and Buddhism) contradicts the belief that this life is the only life before eternity (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam).

Pantheism (Hinduism) contradicts the belief that there is only one transcendent God (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), and both of these beliefs contradict the belief that there is no God (Theravada Buddhism and Atheism).

Salvation from sin (Christianity) contradicts the belief that there is no sin to be saved from but simply pain that can be escaped through enlightenment (Buddhism).

Jesus Christ being the incarnate, Son of God (Christianity), contradicts the teaching that he is just a prophet (Islam) or that he was a false prophet (Judaism).

Jesus dying as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world and rose from the grave contradicts the belief that Jesus ascended into heaven while never dying on a cross, or facing death of any kind (Islam).

All religions that suggest that the merits of an individual can free a person from humanity’s ultimate problem of death contradict Christianity’s teaching that “we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which is a gift, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8).

In light of these contradictions, all religions can’t be true. They could all be false, but they can’t all be true.

How can one know which religion is true, if any?

This is from their website, and I agree with this. God doesn't change He is always the same, He won't tell us one thing in one religion and another in the next....

 

[Dalit]

@shankara my question is, how do you think it will be ever possible for all belief systems to come to a place where they agree like you said that they all worship the same but differently?

My one friend @Red Sky at Morning posted this and I think it is very relevant here:
View attachment 20120
https://contradictmovement.org/pages/what-does-this-mean

Religious Contradictions

Reincarnation (Hinduism and Buddhism) contradicts the belief that this life is the only life before eternity (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam).

Pantheism (Hinduism) contradicts the belief that there is only one transcendent God (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), and both of these beliefs contradict the belief that there is no God (Theravada Buddhism and Atheism).

Salvation from sin (Christianity) contradicts the belief that there is no sin to be saved from but simply pain that can be escaped through enlightenment (Buddhism).

Jesus Christ being the incarnate, Son of God (Christianity), contradicts the teaching that he is just a prophet (Islam) or that he was a false prophet (Judaism).

Jesus dying as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world and rose from the grave contradicts the belief that Jesus ascended into heaven while never dying on a cross, or facing death of any kind (Islam).

All religions that suggest that the merits of an individual can free a person from humanity’s ultimate problem of death contradict Christianity’s teaching that “we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which is a gift, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8).

In light of these contradictions, all religions can’t be true. They could all be false, but they can’t all be true.

How can one know which religion is true, if any?

This is from their website, and I agree with this. God doesn't change He is always the same, He won't tell us one thing in one religion and another in the next....

There's another one in this family of bumper stickers, too.



The Tolerance Believe In It Bumper Sticker is a variation on the coexist design and includes a Christian cross, a peace sign, a Native American Indian pipe, the male and female symbols, Kokopelli; Jewish Star, Baha'i 9 Pointed Star; Islamic Star and Crescent; Einstein's formula e=mc2

E=mc2 is now a religious belief?

 

[Camidria]

And all this talk I see about the Bible being changed, there is fantastic in depth archeological and other work that prove that God's Word has been preserved, over 60 000 copies was found of the Bible for one. If a manuscript says something else than the other text then they have been changed, and 98% of those copies are the same. God's Word has been preserved, and for an in depth study you can check out this video, it also talks about the divinity of scripture - the Heptadic structure