Abortion : The Otherside of the slippery slope

mecca

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Abby Johnson and others who have witnessed abortions have seen via ultrasound the so-called "clump of cells" move away from the canula, the vacuum.
You're denying scientific evidence... You'd rather listen to one woman than read multiple studies? She's not a credible source, she doesn't know anything about the way biology works. Fetus's are physically incapable of experiencing pain until the pain processing part of their brain has developed... this happens in the third trimester. This is what the evidence states... There have been no studies to contradict this evidence because all studies have observed this process happening in the third trimester and not earlier than that.

Here is a scientific study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429#

"Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks."
If the fetus wasn't a human embryo and didn't feel pain, it wouldn't move away from the canula or vacuum.
A fetus doesn't have to feel pain to move away from something... a fetus is capable of reacting to stimuli but that certainly doesn't mean that it can process the stimuli as painful. Reflexes do not equal the perception of pain. The perception of pain is only possible when the brain is fully formed, and I hope you understand that a fetus's brain takes time to form. The part of the brain that registers pain is not formed until around 24 weeks, this is a fact and denying it is denying reality.

Here is some more useful knowledge from the study:

Nociception may be characterized by reflex movement in response to a noxious stimulus, without cortical involvement or conscious pain perception. Nociception involves peripheral sensory receptors whose afferent fibers synapse in the spinal cord on interneurons, which synapse on motor neurons that also reside in the spinal cord. These motor neurons trigger muscle contraction, causing limb flexion away from a stimulus.

In contrast, pain perception requires cortical recognition of the stimulus as unpleasant. Peripheral sensory receptor afferents synapse on spinal cord neurons, the axons of which project to the thalamus, which sends afferents to the cerebral cortex activating any number of cortical regions. Sensory receptors and spinal cord synapses required for nociception develop earlier than the thalamocortical pathways required for conscious perception of pain.
read Abby Johnson's story and you may change your mind. You may not change your mind because of the hardness of your heart.
What? The "hardness of my heart"? You're personally accusing me of things that don't apply, this shows me that you really have no credible argument. Abby is not a credible source and I'd rather not read her propaganda. I am only basing my claims on our current scientific knowledge and findings... also known as observed facts. I would only claim something different if new facts were ever discovered, but they have not been and all evidence points to what I've already explained. It has nothing to do with "my heart" or my personal feelings, emotions, or beliefs... only the truth.

And again, the truth is that abortions are conducted far before any of this development occurs... fetuses cannot feel pain early on in their development and that is the time frame in which abortions are performed. Abortions are done in the first trimester, nowhere near the time that pain perception is developed. If a person who was raped has an abortion, they are not hurting or killing a baby because the fetus is neither a baby nor is it conscious at that state of development.
 






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if you’ve never experienced true hardship, which it’s clear you have not, you just can’t fathom.
In all fairness Jess, Lisa has experienced hardship as I remember her story on the previous forum. That said I agree with her not being able to understand.

@Lisa , perhaps you should go to a r*pe crisis centre and talk to the counselors and listen to what they have to say about the women who they counsel. It might...MIGHT give you a better understanding of what women go through and endure when they’re sexually assaulted.

While I can appreciate the idea you wanting the baby to live, I think you need to also need to appreciate the victim who’s been raped and would carry that child for 40 weeks and then take care of it for the rest of her life, which is something you're not doing. Not to mention that every day when she looks at the child, she’d be reminded of the day she was violated and had no control over her body and personal space – it being a devastating experience is an understatement. Being raped changes who you are as an individual, and I don’t think you’re looking at the entire picture when a pregnancy is a result of it.
 






Lisa

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You were off topic to the op, therefore irrelevant. Not because I’m superior but because you literally said nothing about the actual thread topic until pages in. Had you said “war r*pe is terrible but I don’t think abortion is ok even in this circumstance” you would have been on topic but u didn’t. U completely skipped over the whole war r*pe thing to rant about abortion in general.

There’s nothing terrible about advocating your position. However, forcing your opinion on others is. I’m not forcing anyone to go get an abortion or telling them they should. All I’m saying is that no matter what choice a woman decides she deserves understanding and empathy and she most definately deserves the ability to make that decision herself. Im not trying to force anyone to do anything, im trying to prevent that. Im not sure u are capable of understanding the difference.

If you don’t agree with abortion, don’t have one. End of. Why people like you feel the need to impose your own beliefs on others I will never understand. We do not live in a theocracy.

I’m sure Lisa that you personally wanted to be a mom since you were a toddler craddling your first baby doll. It was probably your greatest hope and dream for your life. I’m willing to bet that you struggled to become one so the opposite end of the spectrum is so completely foreign and inconceivable to you that you can’t even wrap your mind around it.

But the ability to empathize doesn’t mean being able to personally understand. It means being able to imagine walking in someone else’s shoes and feeling their pain. I get where both sides are coming from. I’ve been in both shoes so to speak and the shoes I haven’t been in I’ve watched people I love truly walk in themselves. Everyone has to make their own path and the entire situation is so complicated and individual no one can say what’s right for someone else. Yet, you want to. Mind boggling.

You can’t even presume to know what’s best for the fetus/baby. I’ve seen horrifically abuses and neglected children, children lingering for years in care with no families because no one wanted to adopt them etc etc.. if you’ve never experienced true hardship, which it’s clear you have not, you just can’t fathom. Maybe a get in free ticket to heaven would have been a way better option.
Well the thing is whether or not it’s r*pe in war or not the penalty for the baby is the same, so what does it matter if I didn’t mention the war r*pe first?

I’m not sure how my being against abortion translates into my forcing anyone to do anything. I can’t force anyone to do anything. That I am for the government to make it illegal instead of legal is because killing anyone should be illegal and the government should not support lawlessness. Once that happens..and it actually has happened...then where does the lawlessness stop? Answer it doesn’t and won’t stop, life will get worse.

I do have empathy and compassion for the woman, but I also have empathy and compassion for the baby and no one should die for convenience sake.

Haha, I’m not imposing anything, I’m just saying my 2 cents, the same as you.

I wanted to be a teacher actually. I didn’t want to be a mom until after I got married but I sure was so happy when I got pregnant. Best day of my life!! I love my kids to death. No I got pregnant right away.

I can understand and empathize that someone went through something horrible, that the last thing they would want to deal with is being pregnant but that doesn’t mean that it’s right to kill someone. Life isn’t fair. Life isn’t easy and life definitely can be horrible but that doesn’t mean that the way you deal with it is ending someone’s life. That’s not the answer. And we all suffer in this life, all of us. We all have decisions we would rather not make but that doesn’t mean that you can’t make a bad decision, because something bad happened to you and it won’t matter.

We kinda do live in a theocracy, only God lets you make your own decisions, what people don’t really seem to understand is that there is going to be a punishment for sins, you don’t get away with anything not even killing a little baby in the womb. It’s not gonna be me that does this, it’s not my laws but the One who made those laws will mete out justice.
 






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Lisa

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In all fairness Jess, Lisa has experienced hardship as I remember her story on the previous forum. That said I agree with her not being able to understand.

@Lisa , perhaps you should go to a r*pe crisis centre and talk to the counselors and listen to what they have to say about the women who they counsel. It might...MIGHT give you a better understanding of what women go through and endure when they’re sexually assaulted.

While I can appreciate the idea you wanting the baby to live, I think you need to also need to appreciate the victim who’s been raped and would carry that child for 40 weeks and then take care of it for the rest of her life, which is something you're not doing. Not to mention that every day when she looks at the child, she’d be reminded of the day she was violated and had no control over her body and personal space – it being a devastating experience is an understatement. Being raped changes who you are as an individual, and I don’t think you’re looking at the entire picture when a pregnancy is a result of it.
Thank you @Orwell's mentor for what you said about me. And thanks for your suggestion to visit the r*pe crisis center however, while my heart would break for the women, I still could not in good conscience say that abortion is the answer. It would take a lot to raise that baby I get that, but I just can’t say kill the baby.
 






justjess

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Well the thing is whether or not it’s r*pe in war or not the penalty for the baby is the same, so what does it matter if I didn’t mention the war r*pe first?

I’m not sure how my being against abortion translates into my forcing anyone to do anything. I can’t force anyone to do anything. That I am for the government to make it illegal instead of legal is because killing anyone should be illegal and the government should not support lawlessness. Once that happens..and it actually has happened...then where does the lawlessness stop? Answer it doesn’t and won’t stop, life will get worse.

I do have empathy and compassion for the woman, but I also have empathy and compassion for the baby and no one should die for convenience sake.

Haha, I’m not imposing anything, I’m just saying my 2 cents, the same as you.

I wanted to be a teacher actually. I didn’t want to be a mom until after I got married but I sure was so happy when I got pregnant. Best day of my life!! I love my kids to death. No I got pregnant right away.

I can understand and empathize that someone went through something horrible, that the last thing they would want to deal with is being pregnant but that doesn’t mean that it’s right to kill someone. Life isn’t fair. Life isn’t easy and life definitely can be horrible but that doesn’t mean that the way you deal with it is ending someone’s life. That’s not the answer. And we all suffer in this life, all of us. We all have decisions we would rather not make but that doesn’t mean that you can’t make a bad decision, because something bad happened to you and it won’t matter.

We kinda do live in a theocracy, only God lets you make your own decisions, what people don’t really seem to understand is that there is going to be a punishment for sins, you don’t get away with anything not even killing a little baby in the womb. It’s not gonna be me that does this, it’s not my laws but the One who made those laws will mete out justice.
No. We most definately do not live in a theocracy. I know you really wish we did, but we don’t.

Do you or do yo not want your anti abortion beliefs legislated into law? You just admitted above that you do. Which means - whether you like it or not - that you 100% want to force your religious beliefs on other people. Which is where me and u have a problem. Not because u don’t believe in abortion or think it’s wrong, we have a problem because u want to force this belief on other people through the legal system. I repeat WE DO NOT LIVE IN A THEOCRACY.

Not all people share your belief (and that is all it is, a firmly held BELIEF) that life begins at conception, that a embryo is a baby, that abortion is wrong. And since the only justification you have for this belief is a religious book and a feeling you have no ground to force others to share this belief.

I personally do not believe life believes at conception. I believe the soul and consciousness to be inextricably intertwined, one can’t exist without the other. Consciousness does not occur at conception,science proves it does not occur until later in pregnancy (third trimester) and therefore LIFE (having a soul) can not exist until that point either. I believe this just as firmly and inequivacly as you believe what you believe. I believed this far before I ever had any personal skin in the game and I will believe this until the day I die or until god comes down personally and tells me otherwise. We have freedom of religion in this country, and just as you are free to practice YOURS, I am free NOT TO.

As far as paying for your sins Lisa - if your god exists he is forgiving. Right? No one sin is worse than another in his book last I checked - the only unforgivable thing is not accepting him (pretty damn egotistical but whatever) so that will be between that woman and her god just like it is for every other “sinner”
 






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Lisa

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No. We most definately do not live in a theocracy. I know you really wish we did, but we don’t.

Do you or do yo not want your anti abortion beliefs legislated into law? You just admitted above that you do. Which means - whether you like it or not - that you 100% want to force your religious beliefs on other people. Which is where me and u have a problem. Not because u don’t believe in abortion or think it’s wrong, we have a problem because u want to force this belief on other people through the legal system. I repeat WE DO NOT LIVE IN A THEOCRACY.

Not all people share your belief (and that is all it is, a firmly held BELIEF) that life begins at conception, that a embryo is a baby, that abortion is wrong. And since the only justification you have for this belief is a religious book and a feeling you have no ground to force others to share this belief.

I personally do not believe life believes at conception. I believe the soul and consciousness to be inextricably intertwined, one can’t exist without the other. Consciousness does not occur at conception,science proves it does not occur until later in pregnancy (third trimester) and therefore LIFE (having a soul) can not exist until that point either. I believe this just as firmly and inequivacly as you believe what you believe. I believed this far before I ever had any personal skin in the game and I will believe this until the day I die or until god comes down personally and tells me otherwise. We have freedom of religion in this country, and just as you are free to practice YOURS, I am free NOT TO.

As far as paying for your sins Lisa - if your god exists he is forgiving. Right? No one sin is worse than another in his book last I checked - the only unforgivable thing is not accepting him (pretty damn egotistical but whatever) so that will be between that woman and her god just like it is for every other “sinner”
How do you even think we got the laws we have Jess? Who do you think made those laws? Do you really think sinful man came up with you shouldn’t kill? This world is living on God’s laws. Governments are supposed to keep laws so that people don’t become too lawless. Yes people break the laws but they are also punished for them, helps remind people not to do wrong. It’s not a bad thing.

All laws against something are forced upon people whether they like it or not. Lots of people (apparently) hated and still hate that marijuana was illegal. Some places it’s legal and some still illegal, that doesn’t stop many people from breaking the law and doing it anyway. I would imagine even if we all went back to a time where abortion was illegal, people will still find an abortion dr and still get abortions. The law only makes it possible for the police to arrest you and the government to punish you.

It’s actually not a belief it’s a fact, life begins at conception. The sperm fertilizes the egg and voila new life starts just like that someone new is created! That’s the way God designed it and that’s the way it happens each and every time. All of us were begun in the same way, our parents had sex, sperm met egg and voila here we all are! Thats not a religious reason, haha, that’s fact.

Yes God is a forgiving God, but there are steps to take for forgiveness. And yes no one sin is worse than the others because in God’s sight ALL sin is bad and ALL sin has a punishment, being thrown in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. So I would say since that’s the punishment God really hates sin.

Maker of the world, omnipotent- God.. I surely don’t see how that makes Him egotistical, He is worthy to be worshipped and praised. We...not so much.

It will be between the woman and the God, the One true God and they can tell them their story and He will still say, thou shall not kill. There isn’t going to be any wiggle room. And maybe that sounds cold and unfeeling, I doubt God was unfeeling to what they endured but just because you endured wrong doesn’t mean you can inflict it upon someone else. You just can’t. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
 






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justjess

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So are you claiming to be above Sin now Lisa or are you admitting you’ll be burning in the lake of fire right along with the rest of us?

A sperm is technically life. So is a virus, an amoeba, a fungus etc. yet they aren’t “life” are they? Life denotes a soul, denotes consciousness and no your BELIEF that it begins at conception is not fact, if it was this wouldn’t be being debated for thousands of years now with no end in sight.

And no, our laws did not come from the god of the Bible. The earliest law model predates judeo Christian religions by thousands of years. (If you want to argue there’s some sort of universe/god inspiration - ok maybe, it also could very easily be common sense or the jungian archetypes) your specific god is not the catalyst for our current laws and you have no more evidence that he is anymore than the other hundreds of God’s currently worshipped on earth.

I’m happy for you that you have something you believe in and find comfort in. All anyone is asking is you stop trying to shove it down their throats or force your unproven belief into the private spaces of their lives.
 






Lisa

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So are you claiming to be above Sin now Lisa or are you admitting you’ll be burning in the lake of fire right along with the rest of us?

A sperm is technically life. So is a virus, an amoeba, a fungus etc. yet they aren’t “life” are they? Life denotes a soul, denotes consciousness and no your BELIEF that it begins at conception is not fact, if it was this wouldn’t be being debated for thousands of years now with no end in sight.

And no, our laws did not come from the god of the Bible. The earliest law model predates judeo Christian religions by thousands of years. (If you want to argue there’s some sort of universe/god inspiration - ok maybe, it also could very easily be common sense or the jungian archetypes) your specific god is not the catalyst for our current laws and you have no more evidence that he is anymore than the other hundreds of God’s currently worshipped on earth.

I’m happy for you that you have something you believe in and find comfort in. All anyone is asking is you stop trying to shove it down their throats or force your unproven belief into the private spaces of their lives.
I don’t believe I said I was above sin, anywhere.

Haha, well all I know is when sperm meets egg then life begins.

God started everything so nothing predates Him.

I haven’t shoved anything down anyone’s throats or anywhere else. Just gave my opinion. That’s what a forum is about, people join it and share their opinions.... :rolleyes:
 






elsbet

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Yep.

Nope.

Lol, I don't view any propaganda websites and I didn't get my information from uncredible sources as you may have... I don't know what you're reading but my claims are based upon the available scientific evidence

The studies that have been conducted to determine the time frame that a fetus begins to feel pain have all reached similar conclusions that a fetus's brain is not developed enough to feel pain until around the beginning of the third trimester. There's no definitive way to pinpoint the exact moment that every single fetus will be able to feel pain, but all evidence has shown that the brain structures necessary to feel / perceive pain are only fully formed around 24 weeks of gestation, maybe even later, and they have not formed before that time. So around the 24 week mark at the earliest is when fetuses can feel pain... before that they are not able to.
Read this if you want: https://www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html

You should remember that your brain is the organ that registers the perception of pain... if your brain gets damaged or if it's not fully developed (like a fetus's brain), then you won't be able to feel or experience pain at all. And the brain is our body's most complex organ so it makes sense that it takes longer for it to fully develop as a fetus is growing. The cerebral cortex is only just beginning to start functioning by the time the fetus is ready to come out.

Regardless, abortions are performed within the first trimester at around 8 weeks, far before any of this brain development occurs... the first trimester is extremely early and the fetus is nowhere near being fully formed, it certainly cannot feel pain at that point.
Certainly? No.
All evidence ? Certainly not... and I'm not sure what 'studies' you're referring to-- you've cited one abortionist from a commercial, online news magazine. -.-

Why does the potential existence of pain mean that a procedure should be avoided? Davis said.​
Even death row inmates are viewed more humanely when planning their execution.

Had you done (any) futher research, you would know there is other scientific research that shows compelling evidence otherwise---> there is an abundance of scholarly articles on antenatal/ prenatal pain. You aren't limited to trendy, political propaganda articles on abortion, that cite only those who make their living by it.

From the National Center for Biotechnology--

Until recently, it was incorrectly thought that nociception [the sensory nervous system's response to certain harmful or potentially harmful stimuli.] was diminished in preterm infants due to the immaturity of their CNS.​
In fact, it [is] now clear that skin receptors and sensory nerves around the mouth appear as early as the 7th week of gestation. Further, the immaturity of the CNS preferentially affects descending inhibitory pathways ... which do not appear until the 32nd week of gestation. Thus, the developmental immaturity of the CNS potentially makes the preterm neonate more, rather than less, likely to feel pain.​
LINK - NCBI

Not everyone has come to the same conclusion as your abortionist source-- understandable in her case, though---> its bad for business.
 






mecca

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I'm not sure what 'studies' you're referring to-- you've cited one abortionist from a commercial, online news magazine
Lol, "abortionist". I linked an objective and well written article that cites multiple scientific studies and relays the information found within them. It's a useful and concise way to understand scientific information. You seemingly didn't even read the article. I also linked directly to a study itself and provided multiple quotes from that study. There has been no contradictory evidence against the conclusions of the various studies that have been conducted on this topic, they have all reached a consensus that the brain structures responsible for pain perception are only developed around the beginning of the third trimester.
From the National Center for Biotechnology
The study you're linking is talking about neonates, primarily preterm neonates. A neonate is not a fetus... it's a baby that's already been born. Fetuses haven't developed enough to feel pain until around 24 weeks, but after that time they begin to be able to experience pain. A baby is typically born at 40 weeks... this is a decent ways away from 24 weeks which means that the neonate should already have been able to feel pain for a while by this time. A premature baby would also be born past the 24 week mark as well. Most premature babies are born at around 34 weeks but even an extremely premature baby that is born at 26 weeks would still be past the 24 week mark and their brain could be developed enough to feel pain. This study doesn't contradict any of the scientific sources I provided.
skin receptors and sensory nerves around the mouth appear as early as the 7th week of gestation
That doesn't mean that a fetus can feel pain. The study I linked is already aware of this and has already taken this into account in it's analysis. This exact information is already addressed in the article that I linked to you:

"In the review, the researchers highlighted several key points in fetal development that are required in order for a fetus to perceive pain.​
One is that the receptors in the skin that sense an injury must be developed. Research has shown that this happens between 7.5 and 15 weeks of pregnancy, depending on the location of the receptors on the body, according to the review. For example, receptors in the skin around the mouth develop at around 7.5 weeks, whereas receptors in the skin on the abdomen develop at around 15 weeks, according to the review.​
Second, the neurons in the spinal cord that transmit that signal up to the brain must be developed. Researchers who looked at fetal tissues reported that this happens at around 19 weeks, the review said.​
Third, the neurons that extend from the spinal cord into the brain need to reach all the way to the area of the brain where pain is perceived. This does not occur until between 23 and 24 weeks, according to the review."​
This means that all three criteria are required in order for a fetus to perceive pain. You need the receptors to be formed as well as the neural connection within the brain. Fetal development is a process and it doesn't all happen at once... so the first criterion is the earliest to occur and over time each developmental point is reached. The final criterion happens sometime around the 23rd week and that is the time when all of the pathways are able to work together to allow a fetus to experience pain for the first time in it's development.

So by the time a baby is born, it should be able to feel pain because it already passed the 24th week of development in the womb. This is true for both full term and preterm babies.

But the study you linked is not even about fetal development... it's talking about preterm neonates and infants, how to manage their pain, and the consequences of not adequately managing their pain. It's literally titled "Neonatal pain management". What that study says is that although a preterm baby is able to feel pain by the time it's born (because it's born after 24 weeks), they are still born early and their brains and nervous systems have not developed to the extent that a full term baby's has. This means that a preterm baby's sense of pain may be heightened because the pain inhibiting part of their brain has not fully developed yet. The pain perceiving part of the brain develops at 24 weeks but the pain inhibiting part of the brain develops at 32 weeks. This means that a premature baby born in between this time could possibly experience a heightened pain level compared to a full term baby... the study focuses on the claim that not adequately managing a newborn's pain at this time can have harmful psychological consequences in the future. People in the past did not consider premature babies' pain levels due to misconceptions about how they feel pain, but now people are careful to take their pain into account... the study is focused on the best ways to manage premature newborn's pain levels during surgeries. That is what the study you linked is addressing, it's talking about preterm neonates and the consequences of overlooking their pain, but it's not about fetal development.

We already know that newborns are capable of feeling pain because it has been determined that fetuses can begin to feel pain at the beginning of the third trimester which is a decent amount of time before a baby is ready to be born.

And again, none of this is particularly relevant to abortions because abortions are not performed anywhere near this time. And late term abortions are only done out of medical necessity due to a fatal condition of the fetus or to save the mother's life, they are also quite rare. This thread is supposed to be discussing abortion in the case of r*pe... I've already said that the government should not have the right to force women to carry a fetus and give birth when they already had their bodily autonomy taken away from them due to r*pe. Abortion in the case of r*pe would not take place late term either.
 






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justjess

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I don’t believe I said I was above sin, anywhere.

Haha, well all I know is when sperm meets egg then life begins.

God started everything so nothing predates Him.

I haven’t shoved anything down anyone’s throats or anywhere else. Just gave my opinion. That’s what a forum is about, people join it and share their opinions.... :rolleyes:
You want your religious opinion legislated into law to govern millions of people who do not share your opinion. This isn’t that hard Lisa, giving your opinion here is one thing wanting it legislated and, yes, forced on others is another.
 






Lisa

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You want your religious opinion legislated into law to govern millions of people who do not share your opinion. This isn’t that hard Lisa, giving your opinion here is one thing wanting it legislated and, yes, forced on others is another.
I don’t care if it’s a religious opinion or not, but I wouldn’t mind if people did the right thing and said murder is wrong and that murdering babies in the womb is wrong and not give it a pass for emotional reasons. Because like I have said the government should back what is right in its laws. That isn’t a bad thing.

All laws force people to abide by them, don’t ya think? Especially if you don’t agree with them.
 






Lisa

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Yes Lisa thats all you know which means you clearly don't know anything about this topic and we would be very thankful and pleased if you went back into hibernation.
Well, let’s see manama if you would answer the question that @mecca would not.
I know you said you are muslim, so does islam support abortion?
 






Lisa

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Life beginning at conception is a very odd assumption considering that sperm + egg usually fails to develop. Only about one-third develop successfully beyond the embryonic stages.
Haha, that is the way human life begins and it works quite a lot of the time considering there are over 7 billion people on planet earth...
 






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We will continue to see the idea of abortion manifested in the world until we collectively realize it is woven into the tapestry of our outer physical reality for a specific reason: abortion exists only as a tool for us to directly experience a physical metaphor for the amount of unaddressed and unhealed birth-associated trauma buried within the collective psyche of humanity.
 






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Also, the actual non-illusory reason so many embryos fail is there is a whole complex process of planning happening behind the scenes to ensoul a child, and the beginning of life is not as simple as it seems from within the illusion. :)

I will butt out now.
 






justjess

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I don’t care if it’s a religious opinion or not, but I wouldn’t mind if people did the right thing and said murder is wrong and that murdering babies in the womb is wrong and not give it a pass for emotional reasons. Because like I have said the government should back what is right in its laws. That isn’t a bad thing.

All laws force people to abide by them, don’t ya think? Especially if you don’t agree with them.
You think it’s whats right. It’s your opinion. It isn’t fact. Many others disagree with you.

It is not right to base laws on religious opinion and no, we don’t do it in a secular country. Aside from religious opinion there is no reason to believe abortion is wrong since science, philosophy etc disagrees with life beginning at conception. There’s also the issue of balancing the woman’s rights over her own body.

They aren’t babies.

And all laws are based on objective truth, risk vs harm etc. I disagree that abortion should be outlawed and when it actually was for a brief moment in time many many women died because regardless of legal status women have been aborting pregnancies since the dawn of time. And no I don’t think women should die or be imprisoned for terminating an unwanted pregnancy at early stages when it is not an actual life. And I don’t believe your bible has any place in the secular law of the land above all else.
 






Lisa

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Mar 13, 2017
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You think it’s whats right. It’s your opinion. It isn’t fact. Many others disagree with you.

It is not right to base laws on religious opinion and no, we don’t do it in a secular country. Aside from religious opinion there is no reason to believe abortion is wrong since science, philosophy etc disagrees with life beginning at conception. There’s also the issue of balancing the woman’s rights over her own body.

They aren’t babies.

And all laws are based on objective truth, risk vs harm etc. I disagree that abortion should be outlawed and when it actually was for a brief moment in time many many women died because regardless of legal status women have been aborting pregnancies since the dawn of time. And no I don’t think women should die or be imprisoned for terminating an unwanted pregnancy at early stages when it is not an actual life. And I don’t believe your bible has any place in the secular law of the land above all else.
Why do you think all those disagree with life beginning at conception? It’s to give people an out, a way to do what they want to do instead of doing what right. It’s not easy to do the right thing.

Those cells you talk about are forming a new life on day one, so aborting that life is pretty much killing. Besides which a woman doesn’t tend to know the first day she is pregnant, usually takes a month to find out so the baby is forming and looking more human everyday. You then are killing a baby.

Doesn’t matter when abortion started or the reason why, it’s still wrong even if everyone does it.

The Bible shaped the laws of any land whether people know it or not. It’s because God put his laws in our hearts and our consciences tell us when we break those laws. Governments use those laws but I guess if it makes you feel a lot better, I don’t see abortion ever being turned back and that’s because of something else the Bible talks about...lawlessness in the last days, it will get worse and worse and in fact be the worst time in history. So all the women can keep cheering to kill their babies and think that since it’s law it’s ok. When in reality it’s not ever ok and the God that created them will let them know that in the white throne judgement. No one really gets away with evil..
 






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