Abortion - The End of the Slippery Slope

justjess

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It’s not grasping at straws to differ in opinion on where life or personhood begins. If it was an easy thing to determine people wouldn’t be debating it for thousands of years.

A heartbeat doesn’t make a person, thought does. That’s what I believe and that belief predates any belief or position I’ve held on abortion.

Anyway, it’s been fun but I’m checking out of this conversation. We’ve both said any and all we could possibly say. No point running around in circles.
 
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Most abortions are performed early, the ones done later are almost universally done because of medical need. Sure sometimes thing slip the cracks but to put the focus on "late term abortions" is just demagoguery. The Law doesn't change that there is a process to go through before you can have one at a later date as JJ has shown with clinic advertising, etc.
You seem to be missing the point. This isn't about the policies of NY clinics (the new legislation is still young), neither is it about the reasons for abortion, it's about legislation, ie. what the law prohibits and what it allows. The new NY legislation prohibits the State from denying abortion and allows any abortion until birth based on the judgment of any medical professional (not a licensed physician) and the consent of the mother. There is nothing in that law that would prohibit or criminalize a woman's decision to have a late-term abortion with the co-operation of a health care provider. If there is, feel free to bring it to my attention and I will reconsider the demagoguery.
 

justjess

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Like what?
Well we can just look at nyc since that’s the topic of conversation...

Nyc has universal pre-K for all 4 year olds, they are working on expanding it to all 3 year olds (they have a limited program for 3 year olds now), they have free college for kids from families making less than 125k per year, they have a state level child tax credit and eitc that almost doubles the amount given by the feds, there are myriad free and low cost after school and recreational programs available for kids, they don’t even close schools for snow days because children that rely on the free lunch program would possibly go hungry, they are also extremely home school friendly... there is free/low cost healthcare available to every resident regardless of ability to pay, even in the business sphere there are advantages - you can go door to door there with advertisement (great when on a limited budget for a small start up) here it’s considered a crime and you are fined out the ass for doing so - expensive direct mail campaigns are all that’s allowed. Paid maternity/paternity, paid short term disability... (also not available in my conservative state)

As a mother of two who’s lived in nyc and currently lives in a more conservative state I’ve experienced the difference. It’s huge. Rents are ridiculous in NY but in three years when my daughter turns 4 and my son 18 it will still save me a lot of money to relocate back there - her preschool will be paid for, my sons college will be paid for and I’ll save money on taxes, all these things I’m on my own in this more conservative state where pay is also significantly lower (someone working a McDonald’s in Brooklyn makes more than my degreed position where I live)

I was also able to homeschool my son when I lived in nyc, the regulations on home school where I currently live made it unfeasible to do so.

Woul I like to see child care credits and universal pre-K paired with a subsidy for a stay at home parent as well? Yes, but while it’s not perfect it is still more family friendly and supportive.
 
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Well we can just look at nyc since that’s the topic of conversation...

Nyc has universal pre-K for all 4 year olds, they are working on expanding it to all 3 year olds (they have a limited program for 3 year olds now), they have free college for kids from families making less than 125k per year, they have a state level child tax credit and eitc that almost doubles the amount given by the feds, there are myriad free and low cost after school and recreational programs available for kids, they don’t even close schools for snow days because children that rely on the free lunch program would possibly go hungry, they are also extremely home school friendly... there is free/low cost healthcare available to every resident regardless of ability to pay, even in the business sphere there are advantages - you can go door to door there with advertisement (great when on a limited budget for a small start up) here it’s considered a crime and you are fined out the ass for doing so - expensive direct mail campaigns are all that’s allowed. Paid maternity/paternity, paid short term disability... (also not available in my conservative state)

As a mother of two who’s lived in nyc and currently lives in a more conservative state I’ve experienced the difference. It’s huge. Rents are ridiculous in NY but in three years when my daughter turns 4 and my son 18 it will still save me a lot of money to relocate back there - her preschool will be paid for, my sons college will be paid for and I’ll save money on taxes, all these things I’m on my own in this more conservative state where pay is also significantly lower (someone working a McDonald’s in Brooklyn makes more than my degreed position where I live)

I was also able to homeschool my son when I lived in nyc, the regulations on home school where I currently live made it unfeasible to do so.

Woul I like to see child care credits and universal pre-K paired with a subsidy for a stay at home parent as well? Yes, but while it’s not perfect it is still more family friendly and supportive.

The problem with all those state/government benefits is that nothing in life (other than salvation) is free.

The more the state and/or government “gives”, the more control & power it has over the people. Neither the state nor the federal government has the best interest of the people in mind.

Rather than receiving these goodies from the government, it is far better to become more independent & self-sufficient as families, and restrict the (already too excessive) government control over how we raise our own children.

The government has gotten far too involved in all facets of Americans lives...healthcare, education, mandatory public school attendance, indoctrination and dependence on government provisions.

We are trading our autonomy & authority for a few carrots that are dangled before us, and it will eventually culminate into our complete reliance and servitude as citizens.

3DBEABA9-4668-43BB-AE7B-5D2C05361A90.jpeg
 

justjess

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I live in a state without any of that, raising two children of wildly different ages is extremely difficult. Especially considering the low wages also prevalent in this state.

When I lived in nyc all these things were available to me if I chose to utilize them, they aren’t forced you have to opt in to them. I was also able to home school my son which I’m not able to do here so if anything I feel my freedoms are more limited in my current state then they ever were in nyc. It makes it easier to raise a family when these programs are available.. we were talking about how to reduce/eliminate abortions and since the main reason people have them is they can’t afford a child I think these programs are worth the risk.
 
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I live in a state without any of that, raising two children of wildly different ages is extremely difficult. Especially considering the low wages also prevalent in this state.

When I lived in nyc all these things were available to me if I chose to utilize them, they aren’t forced you have to opt in to them. I was also able to home school my son which I’m not able to do here so if anything I feel my freedoms are more limited in my current state then they ever were in nyc. It makes it easier to raise a family when these programs are available.. we were talking about how to reduce/eliminate abortions and since the main reason people have them is they can’t afford a child I think these programs are worth the risk.
Nobody said raising children would be easy.

Or that even life in general would be easy.
At least, nobody ever told me that.

Life is simple, it’s just not easy.

You could always move back to NY if you thought that was better.

At least then you could homeschool your daughter & she would get a better education too, and you would be able to spend more time with her.

Yes, children cost money to raise, but having children is also very rewarding in itself. And as they get older, kids should become more of an asset, as they can help out around the house and do chores.

Also, your husband should be the one out making the money. That is his role & responsibility as a man, husband and father....providing for his family.

If there’s not enough money then he should get a second job and/or the family should consider cutting back on unnecessary luxuries. Either way, men are designed for work, and if he’s depending on your income to support the family, he’s not taking his responsibilities seriously, and putting more stress on you than necessary.

Daycare for a child as young as your daughter is virtually a mortgage payment or full month’s rent....and most daycares still charge you when your child is sick & cannot attend, even though you lose income that day. And kids definitely get sick more frequently when they are attending daycare or public school.

After you subtract income taxes, factor in lost wages, increased pediatrician visits/medications, cost of car note +gas & auto maintenance from daily driving, eating out for lunch, etc....there’s very little left over and you are basically just paying to go to work while someone else raises your kid.

That doesn’t seem very fulfilling.

Increasing government control over our lives so they can shoulder our responsibilities for us does not actually help us in the long run. It harms us as people, keeps us too busy & rushed to care about or enjoy the life we have, and will teach society to be weak & dependent on government to provide the things we should be able to provide for ourselves.

That is what they want. To dumb us down, divide our families & indoctrinate our kids.

Those are the blueprints for destroying a nation.

I’m not trying to tell you how to live your life, and I understand that families live differently, but it just makes sense that the husband go out and earn the money while the wife stays home and raises & teaches the kids and takes care of the household duties.

Everyone benefits this way, it is based on the strengths provided by each gender’s specific role and it is how to have a tightly knit, strong and indivisible family unit.
 

justjess

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And that entire explanation had what to do with this topic?

For one I was asked for examples of pro family policies that would reduce abortions so I provided them. My personal situation wasn’t relevant or mentioned aside from my experience homeschooling in nyc vs Pennsylvania.. the only other thing I mentioned involving myself was that putting one child in preschool and another in college the same year would be cheaper for me in nyc, I have three years before I cross that bridge and maybe I will move back I don’t know. But even that isn’t exactly relevant. I said nothing about whether or not my husband works or why I work or anything of the sort so you are making a whole hell of a lot of assumptions..

Most families are dual earner now because life is just too damn expensive. But don’t worry my daughters not in daycare someone’s home with her (and my son) all day. We switch off.

73% of women who get abortions cite financial inability to care for a child, there’s another thread stating millennials just aren’t having kids because they can’t afford them.. when this is the case then don’t you think we should LISTEN to them? This isn’t about socialism or communism this is about redirecting the tax dollars we already pay to better serve the citizens of this country and in this specific case REDUCE ABORTIONS.

This is what I meant about putting your money where your mouth is. Pro lifers don’t want people to get abortions but also don’t want to do anything to support struggling families. It’s asinine.
 
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And that entire explanation had what to do with this topic?

For one I was asked for examples of pro family policies that would reduce abortions so I provided them. My personal situation wasn’t relevant or mentioned aside from my experience homeschooling in nyc vs Pennsylvania.. the only other thing I mentioned involving myself was that putting one child in preschool and another in college the same year would be cheaper for me in nyc, I have three years before I cross that bridge and maybe I will move back I don’t know. But even that isn’t exactly relevant. I said nothing about whether or not my husband works or why I work or anything of the sort so you are making a whole hell of a lot of assumptions..

Most families are dual earner now because life is just too damn expensive. But don’t worry my daughters not in daycare someone’s home with her (and my son) all day. We switch off.

73% of women who get abortions cite financial inability to care for a child, there’s another thread stating millennials just aren’t having kids because they can’t afford them.. when this is the case then don’t you think we should LISTEN to them? This isn’t about socialism or communism this is about redirecting the tax dollars we already pay to better serve the citizens of this country and in this specific case REDUCE ABORTIONS.

This is what I meant about putting your money where your mouth is. Pro lifers don’t want people to get abortions but also don’t want to do anything to support struggling families. It’s asinine.
I do think we should try to reduce abortions.

Tax money IS used to support pregnant women.....Medicaid provides free healthcare for the mother & baby. It even covers dental, vision, hospital stays and medications.

A pregnant woman can also apply (& get) food stamps for herself & her child(ren).

Food & medical are pretty much covered & provided for ALL pregnant women below certain income levels in the state of Texas, I assume there are similar provisions in all other states.

I think it should go a step further and provide temporary housing & support for pregnant & new moms who might not otherwise keep their baby, as we discussed earlier in the thread.

Ultimately, I really do not believe women are aborting their babies for monetary reasons, and it isn’t a viable excuse to kill a baby.

People do not fall on hard times financially, and go and kill their toddler. They step up, work harder, sell belongings if they have to or figure something out. They do not just murder their kids so they don’t have to support them.

The reason most women have abortions is because they were irresponsible, got pregnant, and do not want to take responsibility for their OWN ACTIONS.

It is simply more convenient for them to kill them in the womb, before they ever see them. Out of sight, out of mind.

It is pure selfishness. Cowardly, irresponsible, cold-hearted, careless, SELFISHNESS.
 
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I Wish I’d Had A ‘Late-Term Abortion’ Instead Of Having My Daughter

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6/

I’m just going to leave this here as the last contribution I will make to this thread
I wonder why the girl didn’t yell for help.

After all, She says her mom was home, and yet, the classmate/guy she brings over rapes her in the kitchen——THE most public room in the house?

Then she immediately cleans up after him, but doesn’t call the police or even tell her mom?

Seems.....off.

Anyway, if she really was raped, she SHOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY reported it to the police.

By failing to do so, she is denying herself justice AND allowing a dangerous criminal to roam free—making it possible for him to r*pe more people, which he assuredly will, especially after she let him get away unpunished.

And she becomes pregnant, and has her daughter, who unfortunately dies later and she still wished that she would have killed her in the womb?

That is morbidly disgusting.

And I still do not see how that would have been any better.

The baby did not r*pe her, or victimize her, so how is it just to wish she would have taken out her vengeance on the baby?

How would an abortion make the situation any better?

Two wrongs never make a right.
 
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I wonder why the girl didn’t yell for help.

After all, She says her mom was home, and yet, the classmate/guy she brings over rapes her in the kitchen——THE most public room in the house?

Then she immediately cleans up after him, but doesn’t call the police or even tell her mom?

Seems.....off.

Anyway, if she really was raped, she SHOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY reported it to the police.

By failing to do so, she is denying herself justice AND allowing a dangerous criminal to roam free—making it possible for him to r*pe more people, which he assuredly will, especially after she let him get away unpunished.

And she becomes pregnant, and has her daughter, who unfortunately dies later and she still wished that she would have killed her in the womb?

That is morbidly disgusting.

And I still do not see how that would have been any better.

The baby did not r*pe her, or victimize her, so how is it just to wish she would have taken out her vengeance on the baby?

How would an abortion make the situation any better?

Two wrongs never make a right.

This is why anyone with a conscience views Christianity as morally repugnant.

I see you fall into the “it’s not r*pe unless the woman screams” camp. The article states that he covered her mouth.

Regardless abortion in this case would have been a mercy, instead a single year of painful life. She loved the baby and it wasn’t about “vengeance” it was about mercy, something you pretend your Devil-God is all about.
 
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This is why anyone with a conscience views Christianity as morally repugnant.

I see you fall into the “it’s not r*pe unless the woman screams” camp. The article states that he covered her mouth.

Regardless abortion in this case would have been a mercy, instead a single year of painful life. She loved the baby and it wasn’t about “vengeance” it was about mercy, something you pretend your Devil-God is all about.
There is no "mercy" in death, mercy, cannot exist without life.
 

Wigi

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I think it's kinda strange to use r*pe as an argument to justify abortion (which is murder for me) when we see the statistics.

Someone really believes that most abortions are caused by 'r*pe' ?
If yes, does it mean that we have to believe there was/are millions of rapists in freedom but nobody said a thing even though we know it's absolutely criminal?

Is it r*pe when a woman consented to have 'unprotected sex' but has decided to change her mind months later when she knew she was pregnant?

I hear 'my body my choice' but babies have no rights and they should die in silence if they are inside the womb?

I'm asking because it looks like people ignore that they started as babies and their parents most likely couldn't afford having them yet here we are.
 
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This is why anyone with a conscience views Christianity as morally repugnant.

I see you fall into the “it’s not r*pe unless the woman screams” camp. The article states that he covered her mouth.

Regardless abortion in this case would have been a mercy, instead a single year of painful life. She loved the baby and it wasn’t about “vengeance” it was about mercy, something you pretend your Devil-God is all about.
It isn’t because she didn’t scream, it is all the details that don’t add up. I’m not trying to redefine r*pe. But sometimes people make false accusations and that is a VERY serious allegation to make against a man.....one that could ruin his entire life, and should not be casually made.
I’m not saying she IS lying about being raped, but because she flat out REFUSED to report it—-even after her parents found out & encouraged her to and offered their support in helping her through it——that just casts doubt in my mind.

If she had gone to the police, they could have taken her to a hospital where she would have received extensive care, provided her with an abundance of resources to heal physically, mentally & emotionally & used a r*pe test kit to confirm it & he would still be in prison today.

At least that way, she would know that nobody else would have to suffer through what she did because of him. I can’t imagine there is any solace in letting one’s attacker just walk away, scot free.

But I digress.....

Having an abortion would not have made things better for the baby.

The baby, being terminally ill, would have been provided with comprehensive medical services through pediatric hospice/palliative care (and that could have been arranged at the girl’s home, and a team of doctors &/or nurses would have ensured the baby received compassionate end-of-life care, INCLUDING effective pain control).

It wouldn’t have cost her a dime. Why she didn’t utilize those services, that is a mystery to me.

Perhaps you do not realize this, but real doctors & nurses are very sympathetic when caring for the dying. They will not let a person die without dignity writhing in pain (like abortionists do to babies).

Ensuring that a dying person or child passes comfortably & calmly without pain or distress IS mercy, Colonel.

Ripping a baby apart piece by piece with no anesthesia or pain control is NOT.....

......And if the mother REALLY loved her child at all, she would NEVER allow it.

Period.
 

justjess

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I do think we should try to reduce abortions.

Tax money IS used to support pregnant women.....Medicaid provides free healthcare for the mother & baby. It even covers dental, vision, hospital stays and medications.

A pregnant woman can also apply (& get) food stamps for herself & her child(ren).

Food & medical are pretty much covered & provided for ALL pregnant women below certain income levels in the state of Texas, I assume there are similar provisions in all other states.

I think it should go a step further and provide temporary housing & support for pregnant & new moms who might not otherwise keep their baby, as we discussed earlier in the thread.

Ultimately, I really do not believe women are aborting their babies for monetary reasons, and it isn’t a viable excuse to kill a baby.

People do not fall on hard times financially, and go and kill their toddler. They step up, work harder, sell belongings if they have to or figure something out. They do not just murder their kids so they don’t have to support them.

The reason most women have abortions is because they were irresponsible, got pregnant, and do not want to take responsibility for their OWN ACTIONS.

It is simply more convenient for them to kill them in the womb, before they ever see them. Out of sight, out of mind.

It is pure selfishness. Cowardly, irresponsible, cold-hearted, careless, SELFISHNESS.
So the struggling family only matters/warrants financial support during the pregnancy is basically what you are saying... once that baby is born pull yourself up by your bootstraps?

73% cite financial inability to care for a child, not financial inability to get through the pregnancy. I wish you guys would stop calling yourself pro life and just say anti abortion. It would be so much more honest... as I said we are just running around in circles so I will leave, got pulled back by artfuls somewhat different question and should have known better.

Happy Valentine’s Day! Enjoy
 
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