Abortion - The End of the Slippery Slope

Lurking009

Established
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
201
Likes
259
Murder is murder... is murder. No person should have the right to murder/terminate another human being, including and especially the mother of that human being.

- When a pregnant woman is keeping her child, she calls it a baby. When she's getting an abortion, it magically becomes a 'fetus'. I have never in my life ever heard a woman or couple who are keeping their baby joyfully announce they're having a fetus. Call it what you want, it's still a human being.

- A woman can kill her baby via abortion legally, but if someone was to cause that SAME WOMAN harm which results in the death of the baby, it's deemed fetal homicide. In both cases, a baby was killed. Nothing changed. Still the same baby in the same womb, but one case is acceptable and the other is murder. Reconcile.

- I hear self-proclaimed strong, intelligent and independent women repeat the 'their body, their choice' mantra over and over. And yet, somehow they're too stupid and too weak take personal responsibility and make the simple logical choice of birth control. As a woman myself, this deeply disturbs and angers me. Cheap birth control is available everywhere. Adoption agencies are everywhere. So why does Planned Parenthood keep pushing abortion at all stages and at all costs? That's the question the pro-abortionists should really be asking. Why did PP endorse and donate to Virginia Delegate Kathy Tran, who in turn helped create the late term abortion bill? Hmmm. How can anyone be on this site and still not question the obvious in-your-face agenda to kill babies?

People instinctively know deep in their hearts that killing a baby is wrong. If they didn't, the pro-abortion/anti-life side would not have had to work SO hard to dehumanize a baby and manipulate terminology so women can 'feel better' about their decision. But none of that matters when a life is lost. When the deed is done, it's still murder.
 





TeresaP7

Established
Joined
Nov 9, 2018
Messages
175
Likes
381
Legal or not as you yourself pointed out it is still going to happen, I don’t think condemning women to a death sentence over it is the right thing to do.
Replace that with slaves or holocaust victims. The logic is the same and so is the barbarism. Any of your ideas to make changes and to lay the costs on pro-lifers, I counter that. We have NO BUSINESS having to flip the bill for Planned Parenthood. We can end that ridiculous waste of money and put those taxes back in our own pockets, where the money belongs. That would allow those of us who do provide, by choice, to do good for others to do more with it if of our own choice and not towards the murder of the innocent.
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
The overwhelming majority of planned parenthood budget does not go to abortion. It is illegal for federal money to be used to pay for abortions.

The people who are against it should be the ones putting their money where their mouths are.

The left is already trying to push pro family programs and policies.. the right keeps voting them down
 





Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
1,882
Likes
3,220
It is illegal for federal money to be used to pay for abortions.
But it does go to lights, sanitizer, rent and a whole host of other things. It'd be like me paying someones electric bill and they use their money for drugs. Then me saying---I didn't buy them drugs.
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
Most abortion clinics are freestanding - that’s all they do so the finances aren’t complicated.

Planned parenthood has more then enough funding from so many varied sources that I am not really worried that they couldn’t perform abortions without the federal money keeping the lights on. It’s just not reasonable. Abortions account for a tiny percentage of the services they render. And they don’t even do them in every state - in NJ they don’t do them at all. If it’s so concerning to others they could always just follow the NJ model.
 





Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
1,882
Likes
3,220
Planned parenthood has more then enough funding from so many varied sources that I am not really worried that they couldn’t perform abortions without the federal money keeping the lights on
I agree. Which is why I wonder why some people freak out anytime someone mentions cutting federal funding for PP.
in NJ they don’t do them at all. If it’s so concerning to others they could always just follow the NJ model
How? Is it a state law or a choice from PP?
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
I agree. Which is why I wonder why some people freak out anytime someone mentions cutting federal funding for PP.

How? Is it a state law or a choice from PP?
I’m not sure but I think it was state law.

it has changed apparantly in the last twenty years... now they do first trimester only - so the pill. When I lived there they didn’t do any, so idk.
 





Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
1,882
Likes
3,220
I’m not sure but I think it was state law.

it has changed apparantly in the last twenty years... now they do first trimester only - so the pill. When I lived there they didn’t do any, so idk.
It seems that it would've had to be a choice by PP. A law of that nature would've easily been overturned. Then again, there seems to be plenty of bass ackward laws everywhere that go unchallenged.
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
All I know is it was weird, you could go to PP for a pregnancy test and they’d talk to you about your options but for the actual abortion they referred you out to a different clinic. This was 15-20 years ago so idk and I can’t find anything regarding it. I did find their current listings of services and it says up to 10 weeks on most and they have one clinic that does up to 13, other states PP is advertising up to 16-24.

Beats me.... and updated it was a choice of the pp’s in the state that changed in 2013 when the federal pp charter mandated every affiliate to have an abortion center.
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,083
Likes
1,657
I think abortion should be a crime, but since it will likely remain legal, it makes sense to start with pushing for a heartbeat bill.

As soon as the baby has a heartbeat, at around 18 days old, he/she cannot legally be aborted.

01E7BEDD-BD73-4A07-BADC-8F91CD8D0075.jpeg
3762AE31-725E-401A-ADBD-F784D2913C53.jpeg
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
Well no... you can have a heartbeat and still be considered dead. Brain death does not mean there is no heart beat. I’ve known people who had heartbeats and no brain activity and were being kept alive solely by machines.

I don’t think a heartbeat alone constitutes life, I personally think it’s brain activity. That’s after watching my grandfather, aunt , and father be in comas and eventually die.. as well as my grandmothers severe decline into Alzheimer’s that I mentioned elsewhere.

Everyone has their own beliefs that’s what makes the issue so complicated. Oddly enough true brain activity starts around 25 weeks so that fits with currentnlaws..

http://www.brainblogger.com/2009/05/10/medical-controversy-when-does-life-begin/
 





Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,083
Likes
1,657
Well no... you can have a heartbeat and still be considered dead. Brain death does not mean there is no heart beat. I’ve known people who had heartbeats and no brain activity and were being kept alive solely by machines.

I don’t think a heartbeat alone constitutes life, I personally think it’s brain activity. That’s after watching my grandfather, aunt , and father be in comas and eventually die.. as well as my grandmothers severe decline into Alzheimer’s that I mentioned elsewhere.

Everyone has their own beliefs that’s what makes the issue so complicated. Oddly enough true brain activity starts around 25 weeks so that fits with currentnlaws..

http://www.brainblogger.com/2009/05/10/medical-controversy-when-does-life-begin/
The brainwave issue is just grasping at straws to make it fit your standard. It is used as an indication of QUALITY of life, but not life in general.

A heartbeat alone ABSOLUTELY indicates life.

It is the baseline indicator. Without the heartbeat, there can be no life, or brainwaves.

If you are truly honest, you know this is the truth.
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
It’s not grasping at straws to differ in opinion on where life or personhood begins. If it was an easy thing to determine people wouldn’t be debating it for thousands of years.

A heartbeat doesn’t make a person, thought does. That’s what I believe and that belief predates any belief or position I’ve held on abortion.

Anyway, it’s been fun but I’m checking out of this conversation. We’ve both said any and all we could possibly say. No point running around in circles.
 





Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
881
Likes
879
Most abortions are performed early, the ones done later are almost universally done because of medical need. Sure sometimes thing slip the cracks but to put the focus on "late term abortions" is just demagoguery. The Law doesn't change that there is a process to go through before you can have one at a later date as JJ has shown with clinic advertising, etc.
You seem to be missing the point. This isn't about the policies of NY clinics (the new legislation is still young), neither is it about the reasons for abortion, it's about legislation, ie. what the law prohibits and what it allows. The new NY legislation prohibits the State from denying abortion and allows any abortion until birth based on the judgment of any medical professional (not a licensed physician) and the consent of the mother. There is nothing in that law that would prohibit or criminalize a woman's decision to have a late-term abortion with the co-operation of a health care provider. If there is, feel free to bring it to my attention and I will reconsider the demagoguery.
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
Well we can just look at nyc since that’s the topic of conversation...

Nyc has universal pre-K for all 4 year olds, they are working on expanding it to all 3 year olds (they have a limited program for 3 year olds now), they have free college for kids from families making less than 125k per year, they have a state level child tax credit and eitc that almost doubles the amount given by the feds, there are myriad free and low cost after school and recreational programs available for kids, they don’t even close schools for snow days because children that rely on the free lunch program would possibly go hungry, they are also extremely home school friendly... there is free/low cost healthcare available to every resident regardless of ability to pay, even in the business sphere there are advantages - you can go door to door there with advertisement (great when on a limited budget for a small start up) here it’s considered a crime and you are fined out the ass for doing so - expensive direct mail campaigns are all that’s allowed. Paid maternity/paternity, paid short term disability... (also not available in my conservative state)

As a mother of two who’s lived in nyc and currently lives in a more conservative state I’ve experienced the difference. It’s huge. Rents are ridiculous in NY but in three years when my daughter turns 4 and my son 18 it will still save me a lot of money to relocate back there - her preschool will be paid for, my sons college will be paid for and I’ll save money on taxes, all these things I’m on my own in this more conservative state where pay is also significantly lower (someone working a McDonald’s in Brooklyn makes more than my degreed position where I live)

I was also able to homeschool my son when I lived in nyc, the regulations on home school where I currently live made it unfeasible to do so.

Woul I like to see child care credits and universal pre-K paired with a subsidy for a stay at home parent as well? Yes, but while it’s not perfect it is still more family friendly and supportive.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,083
Likes
1,657
Well we can just look at nyc since that’s the topic of conversation...

Nyc has universal pre-K for all 4 year olds, they are working on expanding it to all 3 year olds (they have a limited program for 3 year olds now), they have free college for kids from families making less than 125k per year, they have a state level child tax credit and eitc that almost doubles the amount given by the feds, there are myriad free and low cost after school and recreational programs available for kids, they don’t even close schools for snow days because children that rely on the free lunch program would possibly go hungry, they are also extremely home school friendly... there is free/low cost healthcare available to every resident regardless of ability to pay, even in the business sphere there are advantages - you can go door to door there with advertisement (great when on a limited budget for a small start up) here it’s considered a crime and you are fined out the ass for doing so - expensive direct mail campaigns are all that’s allowed. Paid maternity/paternity, paid short term disability... (also not available in my conservative state)

As a mother of two who’s lived in nyc and currently lives in a more conservative state I’ve experienced the difference. It’s huge. Rents are ridiculous in NY but in three years when my daughter turns 4 and my son 18 it will still save me a lot of money to relocate back there - her preschool will be paid for, my sons college will be paid for and I’ll save money on taxes, all these things I’m on my own in this more conservative state where pay is also significantly lower (someone working a McDonald’s in Brooklyn makes more than my degreed position where I live)

I was also able to homeschool my son when I lived in nyc, the regulations on home school where I currently live made it unfeasible to do so.

Woul I like to see child care credits and universal pre-K paired with a subsidy for a stay at home parent as well? Yes, but while it’s not perfect it is still more family friendly and supportive.

The problem with all those state/government benefits is that nothing in life (other than salvation) is free.

The more the state and/or government “gives”, the more control & power it has over the people. Neither the state nor the federal government has the best interest of the people in mind.

Rather than receiving these goodies from the government, it is far better to become more independent & self-sufficient as families, and restrict the (already too excessive) government control over how we raise our own children.

The government has gotten far too involved in all facets of Americans lives...healthcare, education, mandatory public school attendance, indoctrination and dependence on government provisions.

We are trading our autonomy & authority for a few carrots that are dangled before us, and it will eventually culminate into our complete reliance and servitude as citizens.

3DBEABA9-4668-43BB-AE7B-5D2C05361A90.jpeg
 





Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
5,563
I live in a state without any of that, raising two children of wildly different ages is extremely difficult. Especially considering the low wages also prevalent in this state.

When I lived in nyc all these things were available to me if I chose to utilize them, they aren’t forced you have to opt in to them. I was also able to home school my son which I’m not able to do here so if anything I feel my freedoms are more limited in my current state then they ever were in nyc. It makes it easier to raise a family when these programs are available.. we were talking about how to reduce/eliminate abortions and since the main reason people have them is they can’t afford a child I think these programs are worth the risk.