Abortion - The End of the Slippery Slope

TempestOfTempo

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Colonel,

The 1 million is an average taken from more or less the past 50 years. It trnds to fluctuate around 1 million.

But at least you’re consistent in your interpretation of rare.


Justjess,

I hyperlinked the source in “Penal Law”.

It’s from the NY legislation.
Thats what I was thinking it was from, but didn't want to speak for you on here!
 
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Colonel,

The 1 million is an average taken from more or less the past 50 years. It trnds to fluctuate around 1 million.

But at least you’re consistent in your interpretation of rare.



.
1998 884,273
1999 861,789
2000 857,475
2001 853,485
2002
854,122
2003 848,163
2004 839,226
2005 820,151
2006 852,385
2007 827,609
2008 825,564
2009 789,217
2010 765,651
2011 730,322
2012 699,202
2013 664,435
2014 652,639
2015 638,169



Since 98' its been below a million year. There have been some fluctuations but it started decreasing pretty significantly since 2009, I hope this keeps up. Yes I do consider the roughly 8300 later-term abortions in 2015 to be pretty rare. In no way does this indicate that people are having them for "convenience". There is a reason behind it and nothing about the NY law justifies the hysteria.
 
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13k, 8k per year. The point remains the same.

And doesn’t the CDC have incomplete national stats? If I’m not mistaking some states don’t report the amount of abortions, including California which has one of the, if not the highest rate.

Lol no that's not how this works. The point does not remain the same as you tried to say that there were more "late term abortions" than gun murders, which is patently false. Considering the size of the US population 15,000 is rare anyway.

IDK about that all I could quickly find was that Cali has decreasing abortion rates as well

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/article132053889.html

Look, these abortions are done almost universally because of a viability issue or a serious risk to the mother's health. Look if you're against all abortions for moral reasons, more power to you, but stop the scaremongering with the idea that women at 7 months just decide to change their minds and have them aborted. Stop scaremongering about "Partial Birth" Abortions that are illegal on a federal level.

Edit : I apologize for calling you a rat under the floorboard of the universe, ( and for telling you to leave the forums ) but you did demagogue the shit out this issue and your post is riddled with inaccuracies.
 
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justjess

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Colonel,

The 1 million is an average taken from more or less the past 50 years. It trnds to fluctuate around 1 million.

But at least you’re consistent in your interpretation of rare.


Justjess,

I hyperlinked the source in “Penal Law”.

It’s from the NY legislation.
You portrayed at as if it was part of roe. It is not.
 
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That's not true. I said exactly this:

"In Roe v Wade, there's a penal law for abortions after viability, except when the mother's physical health is directly threatened, that are not regulated by the State. In the NY adaption the penal law for abortion after viability has been completely repealed."

And then went on to post the NY legislation (with primary source) that shows where the penal law on abortion was removed.
 

justjess

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There is no penal portion of roe

I’ve read through it twice, can’t find it

Roe left the ability and privilege of criminalizing post viability abortions to the discretion of the states, and barred them from criminalizing first trimester completely. The brief window between first trimester and viability was also left to the discretion of the states to deal with how it wished... it later amended that in a different decision to only pre and post viability categories but at no time did ROE propose or attach an actual penal law

Why did u say it did?
 
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justjess

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It would seem to me that prolifers time and energy would be far better spent working to advance technology that makes the point of viability come sooner... if you could create something that allowed a 15 week old fetus to be viable outside of the mothers womb then you would be able to greatly reduce abortions within the legal framework as it stands.

Also, financially foot the bill for this technology and the medical intervention necessary and the child’s entire childhood. Problem solved.
 
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Colonel,

For the rarity comparison I used the stats from 2013 simply because I don't keep up to date with yearly statistics. 2013 stats said approximately 33k gun deaths that year, two thirds suicide, one third homicide. The point here was not to prove if there were more or less late-term abortions, but what is considered rare. I do not consider 8,300 abortions after 21 weeks pregnancy a year to be rare, especially if you consider that the victim of a homicide doesn't lose his life based on a legal consensus between two or more people, unlike the victim of an abortion.

I disagree with your statement that I've given inaccuracies, and if so, definitely not deliberately. On the other hand, you have used many strawmen arguments and a lot of speculation. I never said women had late-term abortions because of convenience or because they had a change of heart. You however make the assumption that late-term abortions are not for those reasons. There's no possible way for us to know the exact motivations behind every abortion and give a general perspective. The only thing that interests me is principles based on philosophy.

You also assume that I don't approve of any abortions at all, which is also an unfounded assumption. I made no such claim, nor is it true. I'm not an Evangelical Christian, yet you lumped me in that group. I'm not even Protestant or American. I'm not aware of those adoption practices in the links you've shared, but at first glance I don't see any reason for any hysteria on your behalf. Speaking of which, you're confusing my criticism for hysteria. However, I disagree when you say "nothing about the NY law justifies the hysteria". I think hysteria is more than justified for the following reason:

What you perceive as hysteria is in reality contempt for the lawmakers of this bill, its legalities and the people cheering for its realisation as if a greater good has been achieved. Roe v Wade, although not a fan, at least balances the rights between woman and unborn child on the fetus' viability. The NY law and the Virginia bill both completely reduce the rights of the unborn child to zero and maximizes the rights of the mother. The unborn child has been taken out of the equation. It is a onesidedness rooted in selfishness, ego, as free2018 had already mentioned, and more a quest for female empowerment than achieving political reform that is morally right. The woman (and the father whose say in this is remarkably irrelevant apparently) should have the right not to be forced through the entirety of pregnancy and the consequences thereof if the pregnancy was unwanted, granted that both parents took enough responsibility to avoid the pregnancy in the first place. Else it's nothing more than a brutal form of damage repair after the irresponsible search for immediate gratification by two adults who in a true adult world should be held accountable for the consequences of their actions. Abortion should not be treated as a contraceptive but a tragic intervention when contraceptives were not used correctly, successfully or not at all. If people could start from this perspective - and I do believe most pro-choice people do since even you and Jess argue that it is good and would be good if the abortion numbers came down - the opposing sides in this debate would be alot more agreeable.

If unwanted pregnancy does happen, women with a basic understanding of their own anatomy find that out long before the end of the first trimester. Any legislation that decriminalises and allows abortion beyond that, let alone the third trimester, unless it's to save the mother's life due to pregnancy-related complications, has no justification.

For this, whether you agree or not, I stand with my prediction that January of 2019, with the NY and Virginia monstrosities of a bill, will be designated in the future as the month that brought irreparable damage to the Democrat party, if the incessant Russian conspiracy delusion didn't already do the trick.
 
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Jess,

Yes, I think you're right that Roe v Wade leaves the penal code to the individual states. The amendment in the NY legislation was most likely from the previous NY legislation. But there remains a significant difference that the new NY law gives full authority to the medical professional's judgment to allow abortion up to birth while simultaneously decriminalising abortion after 24 weeks and explicitly stating that abortion is a fundamental right that cannot be denied by the State.

The sources for these claims have been provided. Can you see how this completely removes all limits to abortion or do you see any way to regulate abortion in all of this?

Secondly, the general pro-life stance in the US is to not allow abortion at all. I don't know if any pro-life organisations are or are not thinking about solutions to reduce viability, but if you are going to assign responsibility to people to reduce viability, I think it'd be more just if the group advocating for abortion is the one taking up that responsibility. The viability standard is the standard of the pro-choicers after all, not the pro-lifers.
 
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Because this is talking about post viability, where there are strict conditions for the mother to have an abortion. Prior to that it’s considered part of the mothers body not a separate entity and you can’t criminally prosecute for it either.
You claim there are “strict conditions”.

I doubt most OB/GYNs would casually perform abortion, which is why abortion clinics exist.

Abortion clinics are murder mills. They care only about $$$, which is why PP sold baby parts. They do NOT care about clients—mother or baby. Only profit.

Women in the 2nd and 3rd trimester can EASILY get an abortion. You make it sound as if there’s a screening process. The mother just books an appointment. The abortionist can charge the woman MORE for the older unborn babies, because different murder methods must be used, but abortion clinics are eagerly available kill unborn babies of all ages.
 
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Advocate for abortion? Please show me where I did that... I’ll wait.

I also don’t believe a fetus is a person at conception which was also the belief of early churches so take it up with them.
You yourself claim to be pro-choice, which means you are an abortion advocate.

Then you say you “don’t believe a fetus is a person at conception “.

Really, then what is it?

Simple biology shows it is a human being at its beginning stages of development.

At what point does the baby’s life count?

And don’t bring the “early church” into this......(which I do not believe your claim because Christianity believes life begins as soon as fertilization occurs/conception)....... as if you have formulated your beliefs on what the Bible says, as you clearly have NOT.
 

free2018

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You asked the valid moral and scientific queries of the issue.... this dude responses with accusation of random philosophical ramblings after trying to derail the dialog with a bit of "war & death penalty" sleight of hand........
I didn't want to derail. I still don't.
 

justjess

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Jess,

Yes, I think you're right that Roe v Wade leaves the penal code to the individual states. The amendment in the NY legislation was most likely from the previous NY legislation. But there remains a significant difference that the new NY law gives full authority to the medical professional's judgment to allow abortion up to birth while simultaneously decriminalising abortion after 24 weeks and explicitly stating that abortion is a fundamental right that cannot be denied by the State.

The sources for these claims have been provided. Can you see how this completely removes all limits to abortion or do you see any way to regulate abortion in all of this?

Secondly, the general pro-life stance in the US is to not allow abortion at all. I don't know if any pro-life organisations are or are not thinking about solutions to reduce viability, but if you are going to assign responsibility to people to reduce viability, I think it'd be more just if the group advocating for abortion is the one taking up that responsibility. The viability standard is the standard of the pro-choicers after all, not the pro-lifers.
I could be wrong artful but I do not see the new N.Y. law being abused how you fear it will be.. a brief cursory look at some of the abortion clinics in nyc still states they do abortions up until 24 weeks. If abortion clinics aren’t doing them past that point then it would be up to a specialized doctor who was making that decision based on the woman’s medical situation. A clinic u just walk in, pay, have the procedure no questions asked... if at some point in the future I see them take the 24 week requirement off their websites or hear reports that they are doing them but not advertising then I will change my mind but at this point I’ve seen no reason to be alarmed. I took a look to see if the sites changed anything and they haven’t.

I am a little perturbed that by deleting it from the penal code they didn’t add something else to the penal code to ensure that a wanted pregnancy ended by domestic violence or violent criminals is still a crime. And that they so completely deleted it from the criminal code that there is now no punishment at all if a late term abortion is performed for no reason (again I looked late last night), however I do trust that women aren’t having late term abortions for frivolous reasons and that the law itself will provide protection in the event this happens, so that is something I’m going to have to wait and see on.

As for the viability thing it wouldn’t make sense for the pro choice people to invest the funds to do that. The pro life contingent spends billions if not trillions each year protesting and lobbying trying to change abortion laws to restrict it... if that money was directed instead to advancing technology to make fetus’s viable earlier or to support families financially (since 73% of women getting abortions say they are having one because they can’t afford a child) I think they would achieve their ultimate goals of reducing and eventually eliminating abortions quicker, easier and in a more positive manner. Just a thought.
 

justjess

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You claim there are “strict conditions”.

I doubt most OB/GYNs would casually perform abortion, which is why abortion clinics exist.

Abortion clinics are murder mills. They care only about $$$, which is why PP sold baby parts. They do NOT care about clients—mother or baby. Only profit.

Women in the 2nd and 3rd trimester can EASILY get an abortion. You make it sound as if there’s a screening process. The mother just books an appointment. The abortionist can charge the woman MORE for the older unborn babies, because different murder methods must be used, but abortion clinics are eagerly available kill unborn babies of all ages.
Abortion clinics in nyc are still stating they will only perform up until 24 weeks. I’ve looked. Have you?

If clinics arent performing them past that point it would be up to the obgyn who would obviously screen.

If clinics end up performing them anyway in a way that disagrees with the law they will lose their medical license, same for obgyns
 

justjess

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You yourself claim to be pro-choice, which means you are an abortion advocate.

Then you say you “don’t believe a fetus is a person at conception “.

Really, then what is it?

Simple biology shows it is a human being at its beginning stages of development.

At what point does the baby’s life count?

And don’t bring the “early church” into this......(which I do not believe your claim because Christianity believes life begins as soon as fertilization occurs/conception)....... as if you have formulated your beliefs on what the Bible says, as you clearly have NOT.
No being pro choice does not mean being an abortion advocate, it means leaving other women to make their own decisions and know what’s best for themselves. It means minding my own damn business. I have never once encouraged anyone to get an abortion and I never would. Just stop.

And no, not what the bible says since it’s mute on the matter but a thorough examination of historical attitudes and beliefs on the subject including those of various religions including the early Christian Church. I do not believe a zygot has a soul, I also do not believe someone Who is brain deads soul is still trapped inside them while their body is kept artificially alive by machines. Contrary to whatever u may think I’ve actually put much considered thought into the topic to arrive at my own conclusions informed by many great thinkers of the past.

I also never said it wasn’t human just that I don’t believe it is a person (or has a soul) at conception. There is a difference.

My line? I think first trimester abortions are fine, after that there needs to be a compelling reason. After quickening that reason better be enormous. After viability just shouldn’t happen at all for any reason other than the fetus itself isn’t viable/conducive to life. Your belief is different and that’s fine, but not everyone in this country has the same religious beliefs as you nor should they be held to beliefs that don’t hold. We aren’t living in a theocracy.

It’s funny how I can give you understanding yet you can’t seem to do the same..

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58f52ed7e4b048372700dab5
 
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Colonel,


I never said women had late-term abortions because of convenience or because they had a change of heart. You however make the assumption that late-term abortions are not for those reasons. There's no possible way for us to know the exact motivations behind every abortion and give a general perspective. The only thing that interests me is principles based on philosophy.

.
"All protections of the unborn child have been eradicated for the sake of protecting the sexual liberty, immaturity and irresponsibility of promiscuous adults"

Uh huh.

Most abortions are performed early, the ones done later are almost universally done because of medical need. Sure sometimes thing slip the cracks but to put the focus on "late term abortions" is just demagoguery. The Law doesn't change that there is a process to go through before you can have one at a later date as JJ has shown with clinic advertising, etc.

While this may indeed rally the religious right enough to tip the next election, no one is changing their minds over the NY law. Most rational people will be able to see beyond the scaremongering rhetoric. Unless a crisis happens its pretty likely that Trump is toast, there's a lot of time but his numbers are slipping and working people are paying higher taxes, trade war is taking it's toll and the guy keeps a cadre of crooks around him. Still I wouldn't put it past the Democratic Party to fuck this up somehow, but if they do and lose the split in the party will be over economics not abortion. Not like any of that matters because if Trump gets re-elected things are gonna get real.
 
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Abortion clinics in nyc are still stating they will only perform up until 24 weeks. I’ve looked. Have you?

If clinics arent performing them past that point it would be up to the obgyn who would obviously screen.

If clinics end up performing them anyway in a way that disagrees with the law they will lose their medical license, same for obgyns
Jess, my sister had 7 abortions ... 3 of those were after 24 weeks. 2 were bordering the 3rd trimester & one was mere days before giving birth. (She is now saved, and pro-life).

She had no problems whatsoever finding several abortion clinics who were willing to perform abortions after 24 weeks. They charged her more & she said the process was different, and it took 2 days to do the ones that were later in the pregnancy.

And if it is THAT EASY in a state as conservative as Texas, I can guarantee it is happening in all states.


You should not be so naive to really believe that just because the law says not to, or it isn’t on the murder menu on their website, that these clinics aren’t performing them.

That’s like saying there is no prostitution happening in the VIP area of strip clubs because it’s “illegal “. It happens, it just isn’t advertised.
 
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No being pro choice does not mean being an abortion advocate, it means leaving other women to make their own decisions and know what’s best for themselves. It means minding my own damn business. I have never once encouraged anyone to get an abortion and I never would. Just stop.

And no, not what the bible says since it’s mute on the matter but a thorough examination of historical attitudes and beliefs on the subject including those of various religions including the early Christian Church. I do not believe a zygot has a soul, I also do not believe someone Who is brain deads soul is still trapped inside them while their body is kept artificially alive by machines. Contrary to whatever u may think I’ve actually put much considered thought into the topic to arrive at my own conclusions informed by many great thinkers of the past.

I also never said it wasn’t human just that I don’t believe it is a person (or has a soul) at conception. There is a difference.

My line? I think first trimester abortions are fine, after that there needs to be a compelling reason. After quickening that reason better be enormous. After viability just shouldn’t happen at all for any reason other than the fetus itself isn’t viable/conducive to life. Your belief is different and that’s fine, but not everyone in this country has the same religious beliefs as you nor should they be held to beliefs that don’t hold. We aren’t living in a theocracy.

It’s funny how I can give you understanding yet you can’t seem to do the same..

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58f52ed7e4b048372700dab5
My beliefs on abortion have ALWAYS remained the same.

I have been strictly pro-life for my entire life, including when I was an atheist and long before I got saved.

It didn’t take a religious belief to recognize that killing the unborn (no matter how young) is murder.

As far as “viability”, that doesn’t hold much water in my opinion. Even the healthiest newborn baby already outside the mother will die if not constantly cared for, fed, kept warm, etc. by the mother or some other person.
 

justjess

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I’m sorry but I just don’t believe you.. at this point you’ve had a friend with cancer that had a csection to save her 20 week old fetus who miraculously survived and now a sister who’s had 7 abortions of which three were illegal. That’s just too entirely implausible, I’m sorry.

If they are performing illegal abortions they should lose their license and be shut down, what the law says doesn’t actually matter to people who break laws so the law allowing for exceptional circumstances shouldnt bother you or anyone else since it doesn’t matter either way to those who break it. The only way this law should bother you is if you actually disagree that abortions in cases of maternal health and fatality shouldn’t be done. In which case, while I vehementally disagree with you, I respect that this is your belief.

My problem comes in with trying to force that belief on people who don’t share it. The laws and ideas surrounding pregnancy are all based squarely in religion and philosophy. If someone has a different religious or philosophical view in a country that isn’t a theocracy, forcing them to adhere to ones own is wrong.

At the end of the day if your god exists he will judge them for what they’ve done. Why isn’t that good enough? The aborted child or fetus, if it has in fact been ensouled already will find its way to heaven since it’s innocent, even the Catholics with the original sin doctrine believe this. Eternal damnation of the mother who aborted it, if your god sees fit is worse than any prison sentence she could have been given anyway.

Abortions have been around since the beginning of time. Whether they are legal or not they aren’t going to go away.

I personally don’t feel making them illegal does any actual good. I’d rather see time effort and resources directed towards ameliorating the societal conditions that cause women to get abortions in the first place.
 
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