Abortion - The End of the Slippery Slope

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#81
I do not believe it is possible to be pro-choice and truly care about children. Set aside the less than 1% who complain of health issues. That small percentage is not a valid reason to murder 60,000,000 babies. I could not look my children in the eyes while standing for a woman’s right to murder her own child. There is no other way around that. It is self-deception to say one is for children while also not defending them at every stage.

Children recognize the horror of abortion AT EVERY STAGE, and there is a reason they see it so clearly. Adults are the ones who harden their hearts and deceive themselves and others. We all know it is murder.
I agree with your sentiments, but dont underestimate the indoctrination levels that generations have now been raised under the yoke of. Some actually feel the are advocating for children via abortion. Im willing to engage with those people because even if their actions are sinful, they are misguided with a heart still in the right place. But there are parties on both the pro life/choice sides who utilize this conflict for their own motives, whatever they may be. Those are the true enemy in this fight imo.
 





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#82
Nonsense? It's only nonsense because you think killing babies is okay.
Either a fetus is a human being or it's not. It's pretty simple.
We're talking abortion. I am not for abortion.
You asked the valid moral and scientific queries of the issue.... this dude responses with accusation of random philosophical ramblings after trying to derail the dialog with a bit of "war & death penalty" sleight of hand........
 





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#83
What truth? He said she was experiencing all these mental health issues, blamed it on the ten abortions she has had.

I argue that she probably already had the mental issues because it is not normal in any way to have ten abortions and the little complication of the fact she was sexually abused as a child comes out.

What truth exactly do you think I ignored?
As I sometimes tell my own kids when I find they have been up to no good and blame one another, I used to tell them - the one who is telling the truth can rest easy, the one who is not may fool others but they won't fool God.

I would never get involved with personality battles between them.
 





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#84
What truth? He said she was experiencing all these mental health issues, blamed it on the ten abortions she has had.

I argue that she probably already had the mental issues because it is not normal in any way to have ten abortions and the little complication of the fact she was sexually abused as a child comes out.

What truth exactly do you think I ignored?
I think its fair to say that you have a valid point.... if this person has truly had so many of these procedures, its logical to hypothesize that their life is likely in one heck of a state.......
I think its also completely unrealistic to think that the trauma of 10 abortions wouldn't haunt an normal individual, both emotionally and physically.
 





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#85
People who are sexually abused act out sexually quite frequently... your opinion that this isn’t a serious mental concern is irrelevant - it is. PTSD, depression, anxiety, attachment issues.. all very real and devastating.

You can’t blame her current diminished mental state on the abortions when she already had a diminished mental state to begin with.
These sad realities can feed off of one another, sinking the person deeper.
 





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#86
I’m definately not disagreeing with that...

After the second or third abortion that woman should have had a comprehensive psych evaluation and been offered therapy and social services. That’s not normal and indicates some deeper issue... one or two ok we’ll things happen but at ten that is something pathological and someone should have been trying to get to the root of it.

Unfortunately our system isn’t set up for that.. that’s a problem with the medical/health care industry more than anything else. Legalized early term abortion paired with social services and intervention and a pro worker environment would see a larger drop in abortion rates than just outlawing abortion without addressing the rest ever will.
 





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#87
I’m definately not disagreeing with that...

After the second or third abortion that woman should have had a comprehensive psych evaluation and been offered therapy and social services. That’s not normal and indicates some deeper issue... one or two ok we’ll things happen but at ten that is something pathological and someone should have been trying to get to the root of it.

Unfortunately our system isn’t set up for that.. that’s a problem with the medical/health care industry more than anything else. Legalized early term abortion paired with social services and intervention and a pro worker environment would see a larger drop in abortion rates than just outlawing abortion without addressing the rest ever will.
You and I may disagree, but one is too many. However, its legal. But after the first traumatic experience of an abortion, if the individual hasn't been convinced a change is needed in order to never again suffer such a cruel choice and procedure, that is strictly on them and the provider who is willing to commit to multiple abortions for one person (abortion as a form of birth control).

Im not trying to start a brawl though. I get the sense you are also opposed to abortion, yet see it as a last chance option, not a catch-all solution, so I aint trying to scream baby killer at you or other such provocations.
 





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#88
You and I may disagree, but one is too many. However, its legal. But after the first traumatic experience of an abortion, if the individual hanst been convinced a change is needed in order to never again suffer such a cruel choice and procedure, that is strictly on them and the provider who is willing to commit to multiple abortions for one person (abortion as a form of birth control).

Im not trying to start a brawl though. I get the sense you are also opposed to abortion, yet see it as a last chance option, not a catch-all solution, so I aint trying to scream baby killer at you or other such provocations.
I think you hit on a good point here - it appears that abortions are increasingly being employed as a catch-all solution and not an option to contemplate if all other possibilities have been exhausted.

Perhaps all of us, left or right leaning can at least agree on this?
 





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#89
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#90
The abortion rate is dropping rapidly so no... I don’t agree.

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/3/18119528/abortion-rate-decline-2018-birth-control-iud-pill

If we want it to drop further - which is something I do think all sides can agree on - we need to improve people’s economic situation and actually support families with our wallets instead of just paying lip service.
"If we want it to drop further - which is something I do think all sides can agree on - we need to improve people’s economic situation and actually support families with our wallets instead of just paying lip service."
That is where I diverge from many of the "Pro-Lifers"..... fools will stand and scream at a gal going into a building for this procedure, yet wont drop a dime or lift a finger to help her stabilize her own life enough so that she aint got to abort or give up the child? Weak sauce.
 





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#91
"If we want it to drop further - which is something I do think all sides can agree on - we need to improve people’s economic situation and actually support families with our wallets instead of just paying lip service."
That is where I diverge from many of the "Pro-Lifers"..... fools will stand and scream at a gal going into a building for this procedure, yet wont drop a dime or lift a finger to help her stabilize her own life enough so that she aint got to abort or give up the child? Weak sauce.
I agree. Without social support structures, people in desparate situations do desperate things. It's easy to judge people who face challenges we never have.

This is not the whole story though.

The issue has two sides. There are indeed people who face desparation and seemingly impossible odds. There are others who just feel that an unplanned child may prove to be a barrier to success at that point in their lives.

I'm glad I'm not God. He's going to be the judge.
 





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#92
Profitable? It’s illegal to be paid to give your child up for adoption... what are you talking about?

Micro vs macro, it is possible something is difficult/sad for an individual (the actual abortion) and also good for women’s rights (the ability to have that abortion)
Ah, of course-- as the lawyers say, then: "living expenses... and much more."

Win-win.

I disagree, though, on the late-term, third trimester legality of abortion. While I don't think the government should dictate *anything* a person can and cannot do, with or to, their own person, I think physicians should barred from performing"late term" infanticide. There are very rare (very tragic) medical situations that may warrant personal consideration of abortion-- even though it may not be deemed "medically necessary" from an ethical standpoint-- and those should, by all means, be considered on a case by case basis. Convenience is not one of them.
 





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#93
Ah, of course-- as the lawyers say, then: "living expenses... and much more."

Win-win.

I disagree, though, on the late-term, third trimester legality of abortion. While I don't think the government should dictate *anything* a person can and cannot do, with or to, their own person, I think physicians should barred from performing"late term" infanticide. There are very rare (very tragic) medical situations that may warrant personal consideration of abortion-- even though it may not be deemed "medically necessary" from an ethical standpoint-- and those should, by all means, be considered on a case by case basis. Convenience is not one of them.
Convenience is still illegal... so basically what you just said is actually what the ny law says
 





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#94
Convenience is still illegal... so basically what you just said is actually what the ny law says
Only in theory... the doctor's subjective opinion determines the legality.

Sidenote on the procedure to rid a woman of (what will be) a 'stillborn'... that is not an abortion. That it even made it into the language of the bill is absurd.
 





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#95
The N.Y. law is literally just codifying row v wade into state law as a preemptive protective measure in the event the feds start walking it back.. that’s why I truly don’t understand the hysteria at this point.

And it is technically an abortion as it is an unnatural ending to the pregnancy. Even if common sense says otherwise.
 





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#98
Maybe because everything you have stated here is an appeal to people's emotions. You are the definition of a hack.
Not sure if the definition of a hack applies here, but I agree with the first part. Tried appealing to pro-choicers' senses and reason in the past but arguments from passion seem to be the only ones at their processing level nowadays.

If you don't have any trouble processing the more philosophical arguments however, I'd be happy to give you a shot.
 





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#99
The GOD of Artful Deceiver steals dark skinned brothers and sisters to sell to white parents for a spiritual war

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia/

https://www.salon.com/2013/05/04/how_the_christian_right_perverts_adoption/

https://www.damemagazine.com/2018/10/01/are-evangelical-adoption-agencies-stealing-children/

This is your God on full Display in the poisonous rhetoric of a cowardly demagogue like Artful Deceiver.

You are the rat in the floor board of the universe.

black-cat-outside.jpg
 





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I wasn't referring to your personal feelings, more so your take on the political aspect. If it came down to one vote anywhere I lived yes, I would vote against legalized abortion. But I don't see this debate dismantling the democratic party.

To me this is kind of like the discussion over Sharia law- do you impose the same laws on foreigners? The US may have religious elements but its core was, is, and always will be about global economic domination. Washington and crew were not Christians. Maybe it's where I've traveled in the US but I see the the majority of women want free choice. As demonic as the act is, they say it's about control over their body. Even if the supreme court overturns RVW I think it ends up in the states hand and the majority will allow it.

If Americans claim to be pro-life, how did a human slave trade exist? They're guilty of hundreds of illicit military operations, interventionism, destabilizing other countries over 250 years. What about right to life in Syria or Libya? I blame democrats as much as republicans for the untold # of deaths and destruction they paved the way for. For me the issue of wealth inequality is right on par with legal abortion.

Overall there's good ideas in this thread. I've driven by planned parenthood clinics with parking lots filled to the brim! It's disgusting. We need the opposite approach to provide counseling or monetary assistance. I hope every woman can get the facts about the rates of depression, etc. following such a despicable act before they choose.