A question for Muslims and Christians

Loveangel

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Hello everyone. This question is directed to Muslims and Christians.
I want to read each religion's perpective. Please no arguing with each other that one religion's is the right one. Only respect and kind discussions in this thread.

-Why did God create satan knowing well that satan will sin and mislead Adam?
Why did God create satan and Adam, knowing that these two creations will sin and will cause billions of humans to carry the mistake of satan and Adam and go through the hard and depressing test that is life? And their sin caused so many humans and animals to go through so much pain and torture, when all of this could have been avoided.. given that God is ever-powerful and the creator, why didn't he create beings that are only loyal and their foreseeable future is only peaceful?
God does not need to test his creations, and he didnt need to create the forbidden tree in the first place. Now billions of people are lost, and 'mislead' by satan. This is nothing but natural, given the human nature God created, the world will never be 100% wholesome. So why the need to create prone-to-sin creations and test them? Why not stop them from sinning in heaven to avoid the result of the world today?

I grew up a muslim. But I've lost my faith due to this question. And I've watched some videos that 'debunk' the quran and whatnot.

I want to return my faith. I'm not sure whether my faith will lean towards Islam or Christianity though. What made me want to return my faith is the whole exposé on satanists and the illuminati. They run the world and are extremely dedicated to destroy morals and religion, and doing things in the name of satan, and apparently preparing for the anti christ. Also, the prophecies of both Islam's and Christianity's are terrifyingly true and real.

So I'm just confused right now, whether to believe in God or not. But I have no doubt about what the VC site says, and I believe it 100%.




EDIT: All of the answers mentioned free will. God can create anything, why create the concepts of free will / fear / good and evil / obedience? Why not create being that just exist? Without having to be under test/ free will? Just think of a world of creations that didn't have the concept of free will / fear / obedience, etc. Do you know what I mean?
I dont mean that god should take away free will. Just the concept of it as a whole.
I apologize for my poor English as it is not my native language :D
 
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Todd

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God alone is worthy to be in control and worthy of our adoration and loyalty and allegiance. Before Man was created God created the angelic beings, Lucifer being one of them. Lucifer/Satan was one of the highest ranking angels and one of God's greatest creations. Because of this he became prideful and desired to be worshiped and served as God was. The Bible tells us that Lucifer was cunning enough to create doubts among the other angels about God's worthiness to be served and receive all allegiance. His lie was that they should not be subservient to God, that they were all equal to God. He was able to convince 1/3 of the angels to doubt that God was truly the only being worthy of their allegiance. That is why Satan is called the accuser and it is still is modus operandi today.

God was prepared and had a plan to combat the accusations of Lucifer/Satan. God certainly could have just destroyed Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels that rebelled agaisnt him. But God, in his great wisdom, knew if he did that, the remaining angels would only continue to serve him out of fear, rather than total love and adoration. The angels who stayed loyal to God most likely would have heard the accusations of Lucifer, and God's reaction could have caused them to rethink and wonder if Lucifers accusations were true.

Instead of destroying Lucifer, God's solution was to create the Earth and cast Satan and the angels that rebelled out of heaven to the earth. The earth would be the "arena" that God would prove to all of creation that he was truly the only one worthy of allegiance and worthy to be in control. Human's were created to be key players in this demonstration. Adam and Eve were given the capacity to trust and follow God's guidance so that they could be blessed. Adam and Eve were given dominion over the earth. As long as they followed the guidance of God himself they would be allowed to reign over the earth and live in God's perfect blessings. But God also wanted to demonstrate that Lucifer/Satan was not worthy to receive the same honor and allegiance as God himself. He allowed Lucifer to present the same accusations to Adam and Eve (and henceforth all mankind). Adam and Eve fell for the false accusation against God. This was the lie... "surely you will not die if you disobey God and eat from the tree of life". Satan was accusing God of holding back from Adam and Eve the knowledge that would make them just like God.

Because Adam and Eve fell for the accusations agaisnt God, the dominion over the earth was taken from them and given temporarily to Satan. God allowed this to happen so that all of creation would be able to witness and experience the results of anyone other than God himself being in control.

God knew this was going to happen and he had a plan to reconcile himself to all of creation and prove that he alone is worthy to be in control. That he alone is worthy of all praise, honor and allegiance. What we see happening on the earth, in this age, is simply God allowing us to see what happens when anyone other then God is in control. Whether it's man or Satan, the results are not good and bring about pain and suffering. God blesses those who submit to him and gives glimpses of his goodness and worthiness to those who have faith and trust in him. But eventually in the ages to come God will prove his worthiness to all of creation.

In the ages to come when all of creation has been reconciled to God, the memory of this lifetime and the results of unredeemed man being in control or Lucifer/Satan being in control will keep us from ever again doutbing the Goodness and worthiness of God. We will no longer experience the suffering and misery of this age, but we will forever be thankful and appreciative of who God really is. The short time span we are here on the temporary fallen earth, will seem like just a blink of the eye compared to the eternity we spend on the new earth in the presence and glory of God himself. But that short blink of the eye will be enough to keep us from ever doubting or questioning the Love, grace and mercy of God ever again.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Hello everyone. This question is directed to Muslims and Christians.
I want to read each religion's perpective. Please no arguing with each other that one religion's is the right one. Only respect and kind discussions in this thread.

-Why did God create satan knowing well that satan will sin and mislead Adam?
Why did God create satan and Adam, knowing that these two creations will sin and will cause billions of humans to carry the mistake of satan and Adam and go through the hard and depressing test that is life? And their sin caused so many humans and animals to go through so much pain and torture, when all of this could have been avoided.. given that God is ever-powerful and the creator, why didn't he create beings that are only loyal and their foreseeable future is only peaceful?
God does not need to test his creations, and he didnt need to create the forbidden tree in the first place. Now billions of people are lost, and 'mislead' by satan. This is nothing but natural, given the human nature God created, the world will never be 100% wholesome. So why the need to create prone-to-sin creations and test them? Why not stop them from sinning in heaven to avoid the result of the world today?

I grew up a muslim. But I've lost my faith due to this question. And I've watched some videos that 'debunk' the quran and whatnot.

I want to return my faith. I'm not sure whether my faith will lean towards Islam or Christianity though. What made me want to return my faith is the whole exposé on satanists and the illuminati. They run the world and are extremely dedicated to destroy morals and religion, and doing things in the name of satan, and apparently preparing for the anti christ. Also, the prophecies of both Islam's and Christianity's are terrifyingly true and real.

So I'm just confused right now, whether to believe in God or not. But I have no doubt about what the VC site says, and I believe it 100%.
For me as a Christian, this is the beginnings of an answer. I will write something more substantial when I get chance @Loveangel

"When we have understood about free will, we shall see how silly it is to ask, as somebody once asked me :”Why did God make a creature of such rotten stuff that it went wrong?”

The better stuff a creature is made of—the cleverer and stronger and freer it is—then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse it will be if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best—or worst—of all."
 

yiksmes

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Without good, we wouldn't have even a taste of what's bad and the other way around.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What is the greatest thought that ever entered the mind of Man? Daniel Webster suggested, "My responsibility to my Maker!"

God created man "in His own image." Since we are persons, so is God. Since we have personal feelings, so has God. If God be God, He must be the judge of all. You must meet God as He is, not as you might wish Him to be. We really need to understand how He sees things! (A God small enough for our mind would not be big enough for our need.)

What is God's greatest problem? How to be just and yet justify sinful man. What is God's greatest barrier? God's own character! Even Socrates recognized this dilemma, in his comment to Plato about 500 B.C:

"It may be that the Deity can forgive sins, but I do not see how."

God solved this dilemma by giving His greatest gift: His Son.The "Gospel" is not a code of ethics or morals; it's not a creed to be accepted, not a system of religion to be adhered to, not "good advice" to follow - it is a message concerning a divine Person.

Paul's Epistle to the Romans is all about the Grace of God revealed through the gift of a person. It spans the gulf between His righteousness and our iniquity, and His remedy through grace. Hal Lindsey suggests that "GRACE" can be viewed as an acronym: "God's Riches At Christ's Expense."

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/192/

@Loveangel - you might wonder why all of the above has any relevance to your question on free will, but as far as I understand it, God is looking for his adopted children to follow and obay him out of love.

If Jesus had not died on the cross with the sins of the world placed on His head, God could be accused of creating a world where good and evil were possible yet not truly entering into the suffering which such a created world would lead to.

If I were to start examining the truth of Christianity, I would start with the fact of the Crucification and Resurrection.


I might also be interested in whether there were anything special about the Bible...

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/hidden-layers-in-the-bible.4821/
 

mecca

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What made me want to return my faith is the whole exposé on satanists and the illuminati. They run the world and are extremely dedicated to destroy morals and religion, and doing things in the name of satan, and apparently preparing for the anti christ. Also, the prophecies of both Islam's and Christianity's are terrifyingly true and real.
There's really no proof for those claims though.
 

Alanantic

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Why does God allow the sun to be eaten by the Earth in the West at night and barfed up in the East every morning? We'll never know...
 

DesertRose

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Why does God allow the sun to be eaten by the Earth in the West at night and barfed up in the East every morning? We'll never know...
I see what you are getting at alanantic a bit strong on the imagery there....:)
I agree with that line of thinking btw.

My response:
Everything around us has a creator. The keyboard you are using the chair you sit on that car you are using.
Why then is it easy to deny that your head that questions for the limited few years of free will and
that hand that denies Him the Most High and that air you are taking in while you shrug that unearned body in disbelief.
Why do you think that these do not have a Creator.
Please contemplate that and use your unearned minutes to ponder.
I take this seriously:
“And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!”
[Saad 38:27]
I once read somewhere that if we were brought to heaven fully formed and with our free will then the arrogant disbelievers among us would have said that they can run things better than God. ( I can not find where I read this but it seems plausible).
Heaven should not be for the arrogant and those who disobey/disbelieve in God.

“Shall We treat those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds as Mufsidoon (those who associate partners in worship with Allaah and commit crimes) on earth? Or shall We treat the Muttaqoon (the pious) as the Fujjaar (criminals, disbelievers, the wicked)?”

[Saad 38:28]

Okay that is my 2 cents. May God guide you to His straight path without doubts. In-sha-Allah. Ameen.

Below is an excerpt from a more learned response:):

"It is well known to wise people that the one who does a thing knows more about the wisdom behind it than anyone else and for Allaah is the highest description (cf. al-Nahl 16:60); He is the One Who has created mankind and He knows best the wisdom behind the creation of mankind. No one would dispute this with regard to worldly matters. All people are certain that their physical faculties have been created for a reason. The eye is for seeing, the ear is for hearing, and so on. Does it make sense for his physical faculties to have been created for a reason but for himself to have been created in vain? Or does he not agree to respond to the One Who created him when He tells him of the reason behind his creation?

Allaah has told us that the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of life and death, is for the purpose of testing, so as to test man. Whoever obeys Him, He will reward him, and whoever disobeys Him, He will punish him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Who has created death and life that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the AllMighty, the OftForgiving”

[al-Mulk 67:2]

From this test results a manifestation of the names and attributes of Allaah, such as Allaah’s names al-Rahmaan (the Most Gracious), al-Ghafoor (the Oft Forgiving), al-Hakeem (the Most Wise), al-Tawwaab (the Accepter of Repentance), al-Raheem (the Most Merciful), and other names of Allaah.

One of the greatest reasons for which Allaah has created mankind – which is one of the greatest tests – is the command to affirm His Oneness (Tawheed) and to worship Him alone with no partner or associate. Allaah has stated this reason for the creation of mankind, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have created them so that I may command them to worship Me, not because I have any need of them. ‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (alone)” willingly or unwillingly. This is the view favoured by Ibn Jareer. Ibn Jurayj said: i.e., except that they should know Me. Al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said: “Except that they should worship Me”, i.e., for the purpose of worship. End quote.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 4/239

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah, may He be exalted, created mankind to worship Him and to know Him by His names and attributes, and to enjoin that upon them. Whoever submits to Him and does what is enjoined upon him will be one of those who are successful, but whoever turns away from that, they are the losers. He will inevitably gather them together in the Hereafter where He will reward or punish them for what He commanded and forbade them to do. Hence Allaah mentions how the mushrikeen (polytheists) denied the reward or punishment, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if you were to say to them: ‘You shall indeed be raised up after death,’ those who disbelieve would be sure to say, ‘This is nothing but obvious magic’”

[Hood 11:7]

i.e., if you were to speak to these people and tell them about the Resurrection after death, they would not believe you, rather they would reject your words vehemently and deny the message you brought, and they would say, ‘This is nothing but obvious magic,’ but in fact it is obvious truth. End quote. "

for more:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/45529/the-reason-why-mankind-was-created
 
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When individual soul's became self-aware, they realised the natural duality ie their own Self and God. This is at the level in sufi islam called Jabarut..and what the hindus call Brahmaloka, or known as the Causal plane in new age terminology.
The beings on that level serve God. This level is associated with the state of 'islam', perfect submission. It's also the place where angels of light exist.

The next state of awareness was the realisation of all 'else' eg all other souls..and realising we are alone in the midst of everything/everyone else. This is where the fire of desire was born. This is called Malakut in sufi islam and Devaloka in hinduism.
the Devas and asuras and others are jinns. The reason the Quran says Jinns are 'made of fire' is because that world is desire.

Iblees was a jinnat that represented the good side of desire, wholesome desire. When his attention was directed upwards, he ascended in rank to a level even the angels of Jabarut could not reach because they didnt have that thirst for experience, knowledge, power etc like he did. So that fire, became light and hence he took on the form of an angel. That is why he was ranked amongst the angels.
But when his attention turned down to 'Adam', the fire became destructive.

So basically destructive fire=satan/evil etc, but kindled/controlled fire=good.

in buddhism they are Chanda and Tanha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanda_(Buddhism)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taṇhā

Buddha said Tanha/craving is the cause of ALL suffering. Obviously, that is not wrong.


The world of Malakut is energy, the mental universe, the multiverse etc etc.
Jabarut is like the code to a program and malakut is the program.
Whilst jinns only experience the part of malakut that they represent eg they are like characters in that program. Our world, Nasut, is a user interface from which the whole program can be experienced.
So basically the entire malakut is in us.

Ali ibn Talib RA
You consider yourself a small body; Yet encapsulated within you is the entire universe!”


the objective is to experience the whole of malakut eg every energy within ourselves and around us (other people) in small dose, in order to learn to master it. like having different colours, flavours, sounds etc and learning we can mix different ones to create something good or something bad..and ultimately learning their use and how to control them.
The objective is to conquer malakut..
the analogy of malakut used in different religions is a SEA (not to be confused with the ocean that the universal consciousness represents). We can either sink in it, swim in it or walk on it (which connects with the miracle of Jesus). The saying of Jesus "I will make you fishers or men" was about saving people from drowning in that sea.

Evil can be met with good...it can be overcome in different ways. Basically we have our own experiences and own challenges and it's entirely down to us whether we drown in it or rise above it...but we know we have every energy within ourselves so we can meet hate with hate and anger or love and kindness. It's the fire within ourselves that influences how we respond in situations too.
eg it feels good to smack someone in the fucking face because...you know, the fire is destructive and not under our control.
if it was, we would respond in the right way instead of reacting in the worst way.

To answer your question, why this is necessary eg why couldnt everything just remain perfect and fully capable etc.
It is the nature of consciousness to expand to new depths.
Experiencing pain/suffering gives depth to experiencing good and allows us to create this art.

it reminds me of this saying

Art completes what nature cannot bring to a finish. The artist gives us knowledge ofnature's unrealized ends

Also good and evil are relative to each other.
We can easily kill animals or destroy ecosystem's yet taking human life without cause is seen is evil. Why? because those are he rules we were given. Those rules created the consciousness of right and wrong from which evil became known.
Evil being known in this sense gives way for good to overcome it.
As an example, alcohol was not forbidden before.....yet it is forbidden in islam because of a new rule. That rule means, that when a muslim drinks, the consciousness of sin is experienced even when it wasnt a sin 1600 yrs ago.














Btw, i think the op is a fake account anyway.
 

Helioform

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The world of Malakut is energy, the mental universe, the multiverse etc etc.
Jabarut is like the code to a program and malakut is the program.
Whilst jinns only experience the part of malakut that they represent eg they are like characters in that program. Our world, Nasut, is a user interface from which the whole program can be experienced.
So basically the entire malakut is in us.

Ali ibn Talib RA
You consider yourself a small body; Yet encapsulated within you is the entire universe!”
That would be like a fractal, every small part of it containing the whole.
 

Alanantic

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I see what you are getting at alanantic a bit strong on the imagery there....:)
I agree with that line of thinking btw.

My response:
Everything around us has a creator. The keyboard you are using the chair you sit on that car you are using.
Why then is it easy to deny that your head that questions for the limited few years of free will and
that hand that denies Him the Most High and that air you are taking in while you shrug that unearned body in disbelief.
Why do you think that these do not have a Creator.
Please contemplate that and use your unearned minutes to ponder.
I take this seriously:
“And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!”
[Saad 38:27]
I once read somewhere that if we were brought to heaven fully formed and with our free will then the arrogant disbelievers among us would have said that they can run things better than God. ( I can not find where I read this but it seems plausible).
Heaven should not be for the arrogant and those who disobey/disbelieve in God.

“Shall We treat those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds as Mufsidoon (those who associate partners in worship with Allaah and commit crimes) on earth? Or shall We treat the Muttaqoon (the pious) as the Fujjaar (criminals, disbelievers, the wicked)?”

[Saad 38:28]

Okay that is my 2 cents. May God guide you to His straight path without doubts. In-sha-Allah. Ameen.

Below is an excerpt from a more learned response:):

"It is well known to wise people that the one who does a thing knows more about the wisdom behind it than anyone else and for Allaah is the highest description (cf. al-Nahl 16:60); He is the One Who has created mankind and He knows best the wisdom behind the creation of mankind. No one would dispute this with regard to worldly matters. All people are certain that their physical faculties have been created for a reason. The eye is for seeing, the ear is for hearing, and so on. Does it make sense for his physical faculties to have been created for a reason but for himself to have been created in vain? Or does he not agree to respond to the One Who created him when He tells him of the reason behind his creation?

Allaah has told us that the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of life and death, is for the purpose of testing, so as to test man. Whoever obeys Him, He will reward him, and whoever disobeys Him, He will punish him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Who has created death and life that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the AllMighty, the OftForgiving”

[al-Mulk 67:2]

From this test results a manifestation of the names and attributes of Allaah, such as Allaah’s names al-Rahmaan (the Most Gracious), al-Ghafoor (the Oft Forgiving), al-Hakeem (the Most Wise), al-Tawwaab (the Accepter of Repentance), al-Raheem (the Most Merciful), and other names of Allaah.

One of the greatest reasons for which Allaah has created mankind – which is one of the greatest tests – is the command to affirm His Oneness (Tawheed) and to worship Him alone with no partner or associate. Allaah has stated this reason for the creation of mankind, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have created them so that I may command them to worship Me, not because I have any need of them. ‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (alone)” willingly or unwillingly. This is the view favoured by Ibn Jareer. Ibn Jurayj said: i.e., except that they should know Me. Al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said: “Except that they should worship Me”, i.e., for the purpose of worship. End quote.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 4/239

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah, may He be exalted, created mankind to worship Him and to know Him by His names and attributes, and to enjoin that upon them. Whoever submits to Him and does what is enjoined upon him will be one of those who are successful, but whoever turns away from that, they are the losers. He will inevitably gather them together in the Hereafter where He will reward or punish them for what He commanded and forbade them to do. Hence Allaah mentions how the mushrikeen (polytheists) denied the reward or punishment, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if you were to say to them: ‘You shall indeed be raised up after death,’ those who disbelieve would be sure to say, ‘This is nothing but obvious magic’”

[Hood 11:7]

i.e., if you were to speak to these people and tell them about the Resurrection after death, they would not believe you, rather they would reject your words vehemently and deny the message you brought, and they would say, ‘This is nothing but obvious magic,’ but in fact it is obvious truth. End quote. "

for more:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/45529/the-reason-why-mankind-was-created
Yeah, that was a little harsh. I sheepishly returned to see what kind of response I got. My ego was all stirred up and no one can respond to another's ego rant. I just get frustrated when myth is taken literally. Myth hints at the Truth. It points to where Truth lies, but it's not Truth itself. When you believe something literally, you stop looking. You fail to "take the hint". You think, "My search is over! I found Jesus! Or Allah is IT! My search for Truth is finally over!" You get handed your diploma and you celebrated graduating Grade School.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yeah, that was a little harsh. I sheepishly returned to see what kind of response I got. My ego was all stirred up and no one can respond to another's ego rant. I just get frustrated when myth is taken literally. Myth hints at the Truth. It points to where Truth lies, but it's not Truth itself. When you believe something literally, you stop looking. You fail to "take the hint". You think, "My search is over! I found Jesus! Or Allah is IT! My search for Truth is finally over!" You get handed your diploma and you celebrated graduating Grade School.
Would it be fair to say that your outlook would have you always searching and never finding? Is truth for you a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
 

Alanantic

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Would it be fair to say that your outlook would have you always searching and never finding? Is truth for you a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
Well, that would make no sense! Intellectually, I know that the search for Truth isn't found in "Time" (being inherently timeless). Nor can it be found by any act of a mortal ego (since that's just a character the Soul's playing.) Strangely enough, from what I've read, Truth will turn out to be what we already know, but simply forgot. But why forget in the first place? Only God knows that, I guess.

"You cannot wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~ Navajo Proverb

"The soul is undergoing a dream from which it must awake. This dream represents our association and identification with the world. The fact that it is described as being a dream means that whatever is in it has to be false. Nothing in a dream can be true. Waking up from that dream is the ultimate goal, Self-realization." -- The main theme of "Yoga Vasistha"
 
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Well, that would make no sense! Intellectually, I know that the search for Truth isn't found in "Time" (being inherently timeless). Nor can it be found by any act of a mortal ego (since that's just a character the Soul's playing.) Strangely enough, from what I've read, Truth will turn out to be what we already know, but simply forgot. But why forget in the first place? Only God knows that, I guess.

"You cannot wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~ Navajo Proverb

"The soul is undergoing a dream from which it must awake. This dream represents our association and identification with the world. The fact that it is described as being a dream means that whatever is in it has to be false. Nothing in a dream can be true. Waking up from that dream is the ultimate goal, Self-realization." -- The main theme of "Yoga Vasistha"
“ We are like the dreamer who dreams and then lives inside the dream”

 

phipps

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-Why did God create satan knowing well that satan will sin and mislead Adam?
The Bible says, “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. … Every precious stone was your covering. … The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. … You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 15).

“You were the anointed cherub who covers … you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones” (Ezekiel 28:14).

Lucifer was created by God, as were all the other angels (Ephesians 3:9). Lucifer was a “covering” cherub, or angel. One covering angel stands on the left side of God’s throne and another on the right (Psalm 99:1). Lucifer was one of these highly exalted angels and was a leader. Lucifer’s beauty was flawless and breathtaking. His wisdom was perfect. His brightness was awe-inspiring. Ezekiel 28:13 seems to indicate that he was specially created to be an outstanding musician.

However something happened to cause Satan to sin. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor” (Ezekiel 28:17).

“You have said in your heart: … ‘I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; … I will be like the Most High’ ” (Isaiah 14:13, 14).

Pride, jealousy, and discontent arose in Lucifer’s heart. He soon began to desire to unseat God and to demand that everyone worship him instead.

But since He created Lucifer, isn’t God really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God’s government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create Lucifer, He would have been repudiating one of His own characteristics of love; that is, the freedom to choose.

Freedom of Choice Is God’s Way.
Knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. He did the same for Adam and Eve—and for you! God knew before you were born how you would live, but even so, He permits you to live so you can choose Him or the devil. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused while taking time to allow every person to freely choose whom he or she will follow.

Why didn’t God destroy Lucifer when he sinned and therefore end the problem immediately?
Because sin was something completely new in God’s creation and its inhabitants did not understand it. It’s likely that even Lucifer did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach might have been as one greatly concerned for heaven and the angels. His message might have gone like this: “Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority, as the Father has, tends to blind leaders to real life. God knows my suggestions are correct, but He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our leader, who is out of touch, to jeopardize our happiness and place in heaven. God will listen if we move in unison. We must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn’t appreciate us.”

One Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer (Revelation 12:3, 4)
Lucifer’s arguments convinced many angels, and a third joined him in rebellion. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God’s character might have begun to obey God through fear rather than love, saying, “Could Lucifer have been right after all? We’ll never know now. Be careful. If you even question God about His government, He might kill you.” Nothing would have been settled in the minds of God’s created beings if He had destroyed Lucifer immediately.

God Desires Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service God desires is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by genuine love. He knows that obedience motivated by anything else, such as fear, is ineffective and will eventually lead to sin.

God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claims he has a better plan for the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate his principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced of the truth—that Satan’s government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.

The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, “We have been made a spectacle [some margins say “theater”] to the world, both to angels and to men” (1 Corinthians 4:9). The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with Satan will be destroyed with him for the safety of the universe, and God’s people will finally be able to enjoy the eternal safety of their home in paradise.
 

Loveangel

Newbie
Joined
Oct 13, 2018
Messages
7
The Bible says, “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. … Every precious stone was your covering. … The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. … You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 15).

“You were the anointed cherub who covers … you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones” (Ezekiel 28:14).

Lucifer was created by God, as were all the other angels (Ephesians 3:9). Lucifer was a “covering” cherub, or angel. One covering angel stands on the left side of God’s throne and another on the right (Psalm 99:1). Lucifer was one of these highly exalted angels and was a leader. Lucifer’s beauty was flawless and breathtaking. His wisdom was perfect. His brightness was awe-inspiring. Ezekiel 28:13 seems to indicate that he was specially created to be an outstanding musician.

However something happened to cause Satan to sin. “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor” (Ezekiel 28:17).

“You have said in your heart: … ‘I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; … I will be like the Most High’ ” (Isaiah 14:13, 14).

Pride, jealousy, and discontent arose in Lucifer’s heart. He soon began to desire to unseat God and to demand that everyone worship him instead.

But since He created Lucifer, isn’t God really responsible for his sin?
Not at all. God created Lucifer a perfect, sinless angel. Lucifer made a devil of himself. Freedom to choose is a cornerstone principle of God’s government. God knew Lucifer would sin when He created him. If at that point God had refused to create Lucifer, He would have been repudiating one of His own characteristics of love; that is, the freedom to choose.

Freedom of Choice Is God’s Way.
Knowing full well what Lucifer would do, God still created him. He did the same for Adam and Eve—and for you! God knew before you were born how you would live, but even so, He permits you to live so you can choose Him or the devil. God is willing to be misunderstood and falsely accused while taking time to allow every person to freely choose whom he or she will follow.

Why didn’t God destroy Lucifer when he sinned and therefore end the problem immediately?
Because sin was something completely new in God’s creation and its inhabitants did not understand it. It’s likely that even Lucifer did not fully comprehend it at first. Lucifer was a brilliant, highly respected angelic leader. His approach might have been as one greatly concerned for heaven and the angels. His message might have gone like this: “Heaven is good, but it would be improved with more angel input. Too much unchallenged authority, as the Father has, tends to blind leaders to real life. God knows my suggestions are correct, but He is feeling threatened. We must not permit our leader, who is out of touch, to jeopardize our happiness and place in heaven. God will listen if we move in unison. We must act. Otherwise, we will all be ruined by a government that doesn’t appreciate us.”

One Third of the Angels Joined Lucifer (Revelation 12:3, 4)
Lucifer’s arguments convinced many angels, and a third joined him in rebellion. If God had destroyed Lucifer immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God’s character might have begun to obey God through fear rather than love, saying, “Could Lucifer have been right after all? We’ll never know now. Be careful. If you even question God about His government, He might kill you.” Nothing would have been settled in the minds of God’s created beings if He had destroyed Lucifer immediately.

God Desires Only Loving, Voluntary Service
The only service God desires is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by genuine love. He knows that obedience motivated by anything else, such as fear, is ineffective and will eventually lead to sin.

God Is Giving Satan Time to Demonstrate His Principles
Satan claims he has a better plan for the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate his principles. The Lord will abolish sin only after every soul in the universe is convinced of the truth—that Satan’s government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying, and destructive.

The Universe Is Watching This World
The Bible says, “We have been made a spectacle [some margins say “theater”] to the world, both to angels and to men” (1 Corinthians 4:9). The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every soul will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan. Those who have chosen to ally with Satan will be destroyed with him for the safety of the universe, and God’s people will finally be able to enjoy the eternal safety of their home in paradise.
Thank you for your answer.


But why did God create the concept of free will and serving him with love? Why did God create Lucifer, angels, and Adam knowing that giving them these concepts (love, serving, betrayal) would cause a war between good and evil, and so much pain that was and is present in this world?
The concept of love and serving and free will is only understood by us humans (and lucifer and angels) God is beyond that, and he can create unthinkable realities and concepts. Why settle with the creation of Lucifer and the mentioned concepts?
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,930
Thank you for your answer.


But why did God create the concept of free will and serving him with love? Why did God create Lucifer, angels, and Adam knowing that giving them these concepts (love, serving, betrayal) would cause a war between good and evil, and so much pain that was and is present in this world?
The concept of love and serving and free will is only understood by us humans (and lucifer and angels) God is beyond that, and he can create unthinkable realities and concepts. Why settle with the creation of Lucifer and the mentioned concepts?
If the "concepts of God" are unthinkable, perhaps we waste our time discussing them.
 
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