A question about the honesty of the intelligence claims to be God!

Fajr

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@DanRaleigh
This is not the only issue, the story tells us that he spoke to Moses and others as well, and that also created a religious belief, which we call Judaism. When he appointed Jesus as a prophet, he ignored Jewish people as well, and instead of helping them to understand their false beliefs and correcting them, his actions ended up creating Christianity as well. So my question is, how can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?
Thats exactly the point. He did not create Judaism nor Christianity (again wrong translation). And Jesus was helping them to understand their false beliefs. There is no religion but one since the beginning.

3:19
True Religion, in God’s eyes, is islam: [devotion to Him alone]. Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge- if anyone denies God’s revelations, God is swift to take account
 






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@DanRaleigh
You assume that should the truth become clear to an individual, they would accept it immediately and restructure their beliefs and behaviours to align themselves with it. You assume it is God's fault for conveying the message poorly, rather than a people's fault for rejecting and/or altering the message. But this is far too optimistic a view of human nature. Often, the truth will be made known to a person, as the truth was made known to people by Prophets sent to them by God, but they will reject it outright, and mock and threaten the messenger because the system they are part of serves them too well for them to ever consider leaving it. The payoff is too little; why abandon the source of your wealth and status to follow a man (often a low-status person) who claims to hold absolute truth from the Creator? More often than not following this messenger would require you to give up many of the comforts you had enjoyed, or would require you to reject the beliefs of the majority, in return for a reward that you don't know is going to come (it requires faith).

This is demonstrated in the story of Prophet Noah, for example:
We sent Noah to his people: ‘Warn your people, before a painful punishment comes to them.' And so he said, ‘My people, I am here to warn you plainly. Serve God, be mindful of Him and obey me. He will forgive you your sins and spare you until your appointed time––when God’s appointed time arrives it cannot be postponed. If only you understood!’ He said, ‘My Lord, I have called my people night and day, But the more I call them, the further they run away; Every time I call them, so that You may forgive them, they thrust their fingers into their ears, cover their heads with their garments, persist in their rejection, and grow more insolent and arrogant.
Quran, 71:1-7

Because now Jewish people and Christian people even found reasons to argue and even to kill each other based on religious beliefs. Who is responsible? The intelligence claims to be God (or the father of Jesus). Because of these issues, either we have to say that the intelligence claims to be God has no knowledge or critical thinking ability to resolve human issues or if not we were communicating with an intelligence who deceived our civilization.
So it is on the basis that people rejected the truth when it was made clear to them that you conclude God is a deceiver who has little ability to rectify complex human problems? This is a mistake. God has made distinct the path of righteousness from the path of error through His messengers, and then given humans the free will to decide which path they would rather follow. God cannot be blamed for a decision they make of their volition. It is only their own fault, and to their own loss if they reject God and His Messengers. Some people prefer blindness to guidance. They prefer the comfort of the beliefs they have always held, and the protection that this gives them from the majority.

God has conferred every favour on us: He has given us eyes to see, ears to hear, minds to contemplate, long lives in which we may seek Him, and above all, the ability to distinguish right from wrong. If after all this we still deny Him, is it God who is to blame, or ourselves?

Indeed, We sent to every community a messenger, [saying], “Worship Allah and shun false gods.” Among them were some whom Allah guided, while others were destined to stray. So travel through the land and see how was the end of the deniers!
Quran, 16:36

Say, “The truth is from your Lord. Whoever wills may believe, and whoever wills may disbelieve.”
Quran, 18:29

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Quran, 2:256

This is not the only issue, the story tells us that he spoke to Moses and others as well, and that also created a religious belief, which we call Judaism. When he appointed Jesus as a prophet, he ignored Jewish people as well, and instead of helping them to understand their false beliefs and correcting them, his actions ended up creating Christianity as well. So my question is, how can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?
These conflicts that arose between people were of their own doing. They manufactured distortions and corruptions in their respective messages to suit themselves, while the message itself was always simple and pure: worship and obey God alone, and do not set up any equals to Him or worship anything besides Him. The messengers were not the sources of deviations between different groups; the source of deviation was people who added to, deleted, altered, embellished and distorted parts of the message.
 






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Tidal

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You really need to stop using these graphs while you say 1 billion Christians aren't Christian. I mean you reject their faith yourself. Why do you keep referencing them to serve whatever point it is you're trying to make? It only makes you look like a hypocrite.
Sides, you are TOTAL establishment. If there were paid shills here you'd definitely be one. From your pro-mask views to your complete belief in the official narrative to 9/11.
1- You're flogging a dead horse mate, EVERY faith has got people in it who disagree with each other such as the Shi'ite and Sunni muslims..:)

2- I mask up when I go in the grocers because I don't want to risk breathing in covid from carriers already in there, it's not rocket science.
Anyway, surgeons have worn masks for a hundred years in operating theatres to block germ transmission, so if masks are good enough for them.....:)

3- As you're a muslim OF COURSE you'd say muslims never did 9/11, next you'll be trying to tell us Mary Poppins did it..:)
Oh wait, this startling new footage has just emerged...

 






Cintra

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1- You're flogging a dead horse mate, EVERY faith has got people in it who disagree with each other such as the Shi'ite and Sunni muslims..:)
So you do align yourself with all the other christians, as shown on that graph?
The catholics, the church of england, the athiests who only ever go to weddings or funerals but always put christian on forms because they always have?
 






Tidal

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So you do align yourself with all the other christians, as shown on that graph?
The catholics, the church of england, the athiests who only ever go to weddings or funerals but always put christian on forms because they always have?
Like i said, every religion has got people in it who disagree with each other, for example some christians think Jesus was God, and others think he wasn't, and some muslims say its right to do terrorism and others say its not.
Same with rock n' roll, some people like certain singers more than others..:)
 






Tidal

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@DanRaleigh
3:19
True Religion, in God’s eyes, is islam: [devotion to Him alone]. Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge- if anyone denies God’s revelations, God is swift to take account
Wait a minute, when Jesus died on the cross he said-
""It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:30)

so, as the word 'finished' means 'finished', I can't accept that God would later send Mohammed or Joseph Smith or anybody else to give us a new religion later on..:)
 






Cintra

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Like i said, every religion has got people in it who disagree with each other, for example some christians think Jesus was God, and others think he wasn't, and some muslims say its right to do terrorism and others say its not.
Same with rock n' roll, some people like certain singers more than others..:)
Ummm... no...
Either you accept the beiefs of all the other christians in the pie-chart segment, or your argument is not valid.
If cathoics, quakers, shakers, and JWs are not real christians (as you have said many times), they are not part of 'your segment' on the graph.

In fact, it seems to me that there should be another segment, just big enough for one person, and it should be called 'Tidals crap meme religion'.

You really cant have your cake and eat it.

Dont argue back or I will have to get out the sad Jesus meme for you.
 






Alanantic

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Wait a minute, when Jesus died on the cross he said-
""It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:30)

so, as the word 'finished' means 'finished', I can't accept that God would later send Mohammed or Joseph Smith or anybody else to give us a new religion later on..:)
Boy, THAT's a leap in logic!
 






Aero

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On the other hand, the issue that I addressed has nothing to do with good or bad. Because of certain events, we can see a conflict on Earth based on religious beliefs. If you say that the conclusions (referring to the original post) that I have arrived from the reported events are wrong, then we can discuss the issue.
Maybe I misread you, but it still sounds like you are saying religious "conflict" equals bad. So I just need some clarification on what you're referring to specifically. Conflict is a universal thing, that isn't religion's fault. Nor is it a sign of a lack of intelligence.
 






DanRaleigh

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@DanRaleigh


Thats exactly the point. He did not create Judaism nor Christianity (again wrong translation). And Jesus was helping them to understand their false beliefs. There is no religion but one since the beginning.

3:19
True Religion, in God’s eyes, is islam: [devotion to Him alone]. Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge- if anyone denies God’s revelations, God is swift to take account
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are just names for a set of beliefs and practices(so you can ignore the names. If Jesus tells them an entirely different set of beliefs and practices, then the outcome would be rejection. And not only that they would even think that Jesus is crazy or a false prophet. That's common sense. This is why how hard for you to convince that Allah is the God (even if he is the true God) to Jewish and Christian people.

If Allah indeed appointed Jesus and if Allah is the true God, why do we see an issue with his critical thinking ability?

@DanRaleigh
You assume that should the truth become clear to an individual, they would accept it immediately and restructure their beliefs and behaviours to align themselves with it.
No, I'm not making this kind of an assumption.

@DanRaleigh
You assume it is God's fault for conveying the message poorly, rather than a people's fault for rejecting and/or altering the message.

@pescatarian09, why people rejected Allah? Because Christians believed Jesus is the son of God. If I tell Muslim leaders today that Leonardo is the true God(assume he is the true God), why do you think Muslim people will reject me even if he is the true God? According to your thinking, if Muslim people would reject Leonardo who is the true God, what Leonardo can do to fix it?


@DanRaleigh
But this is far too optimistic a view of human nature. Often, the truth will be made known to a person, as the truth was made known to people by Prophets sent to them by God, but they will reject it outright, and mock and threaten the messenger because the system they are part of serves them too well for them to ever consider leaving it.
Let me help you understand the issue. Assume Leonardo is the true god and he appoint me as a prophet, will Muslim leaders believe the claims made by me? Especially, if I tell them an entirely different set of beliefs and practices? (If Leonardo uses me as a prophet to deliver his message without saying a word to Muslim leaders, then that means, Leonardo, has very little understanding of how Muslim people think about their God.)

So it is on the basis that people rejected the truth when it was made clear to them that you conclude God is a deceiver who has little ability to rectify complex human problems? This is a mistake. God has made distinct the path of righteousness from the path of error through His messengers, and then given humans the free will to decide which path they would rather follow. God cannot be blamed for a decision they make of their volition. It is only their own fault, and to their own loss if they reject God and His Messengers. Some people prefer blindness to guidance. They prefer the comfort of the beliefs they have always held, and the protection that this gives them from the majority.
- I pointed out the issues again. Based on reported events, we can see that Actions of the intelligence claims to be Allah is actually not positive. He has failed to understand the nature of human beings and act accordingly.
 






DanRaleigh

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Maybe I misread you, but it still sounds like you are saying religious "conflict" equals bad. So I just need some clarification on what you're referring to specifically. Conflict is a universal thing, that isn't religion's fault. Nor is it a sign of a lack of intelligence.
Why should you get into a conflict with a group of people by creating a false belief in your mind because of a claim made by someone out there?
 






Karlysymon

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@AspiringSoul, My bad, my earlier reply to you wasn't that good. Anyway, let me address the issue of your statements:

'why didn't Jesus really speak to the rabbis clearly?" Even if Jesus had spoken to Jewish leaders, still Jewish leaders would have rejected Jesus. But if God had spoken to Jewish leaders and clarified the controversial nature of the events, then Jewish leaders would have accepted Jesus since they(Jewish leaders) believed their God is the true God.

You made another statement which is: "carried a message, their job wasnt to go on 'uniting' people." Let me show you the issue here: God appointed Moses and others as prophets to let us know his word. It didn't work as planned cause someone confused Jewish people or for some reason they ended up having a misunderstanding and this created the religious belief that we call Judaism. While God knowing this issue, he sent his son to Earth. Although he sent his son to Earth, he never made a logical/meaningful attempt to help them to figure out why their belief is false. Instead, this time, he created Christianity. So, the story tells us that while God supposes to bring harmony to Earth, his actions created conflicts on Earth (if God exists as you believe, these are huge issues that we cannot ignore) and we still have very little understanding of what created these issues. For almost 2000 years we can't find God or the angels. If angels or God truly care about human lives, they had plenty of time to communicate with us in a logical/meaningful way, so we could have fixed the issues but this never happened. Because of these issues, how can we come to the conclusion that God indeed spoke to us if he actually exists?




@craniumind , I wish I could address the issues related Abrahamic religions in one or two words. If you believe that the father of Jesus is the true God, how can you explain this?

Let's say the father of Jesus is the true God and he sent his son to Earth to help humanity 2000+ years ago. But now the question is why didn't he speak to Jewish leaders and tell them that he is sending his son to Earth? Why this is an issue? Because of the reported events, we know that Christianity is based on the Hebrew Bible and Christians believe that Hebrew Bible has the word of God (the word of the father of Jesus). Therefore, we can say that either father of Jesus (God) has spoken to Jewish people or at least we can say that the beliefs of Jewish leaders/people had when Jesus was on Earth were due to the actions performed by the father of Jesus(God). Therefore, the father of Jesus (God) should be responsible for the religious belief that Jewish leaders/people were having at that time (if we consider this line of thinking).

Although the father of Jesus (God) knew that the beliefs of Jewish leaders/people (God should know the cause of confusion), he did not say a word to Jewish leaders/people; and the intelligence claims to be God completely neglected the issue or did not make any logical/meaningful effort to fix the issue (If God was thinking that just by talking to Jesus directly and/or Jesus showing miracles to people would be enough for Jewish people to know that God has sent a prophet or his son to Earth, that's bad judgment. And that implies the intelligence claims to be God who communicated with Jesus had no clue how to resolve complicated human issues). Overall, the story of Jesus tells that, instead of God fixing the issue—by sending his son to Earth—he ended up creating another religion on Earth (His actions have already created Judaism by this time). By doing so, he made the situation worst. Because now Jewish people and Christian people even found reasons to argue and even to kill each other based on religious beliefs. Who is responsible? The intelligence claims to be God (or the father of Jesus). Because of these issues, either we have to say that the intelligence claims to be God has no knowledge or critical thinking ability to resolve human issues or if not we were communicating with an intelligence who deceived our civilization. If not, what reasoning can be used to explain this? What can we say about these controversies when we consider the parallels mentioned in this overall research?

@Wigi, @TokiEl , please refer to the reply that I made to craniumind.

@Fajr, although you have come to the conclusion that Jesus is a prophet sent by Allah, Christians are not having the same belief. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Although their belief is false (another conclusion that you seem to have arrived), Allah's actions created Christianity (their beliefs) because of his work with Jesus. So, having paganism and Buddhism, and other religions during this period is actually not the issue. This is why I asked the following question earlier:

Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used the prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 22/23 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By sending the Quran, he made the situation worst. Cause now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to Justify Allah's work, this hypothesis tells us that Allah or the intelligence claims to be God has no knowledge or critical thinking ability to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts among people or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad.

This is not the only issue, the story tells us that he spoke to Moses and others as well, and that also created a religious belief, which we call Judaism. When he appointed Jesus as a prophet, he ignored Jewish people as well, and instead of helping them to understand their false beliefs and correcting them, his actions ended up creating Christianity as well. So my question is, how can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?
I’ll preface my post with this

“To the Law and to the Testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.” [Isaiah 8:19-20]

To attempt to answer your query, I believe that as long as there is a Sacred text, the claims of any being have to be tested against that Standard. Otherwise, how would we tell if it is God/his messenger speaking or the arch deceiver?

When Christ came, he referenced the Old testament multiple times not just to reaffirm its authenticity but also people’s faith in it as a sacred text.
Jesus consistently treats Old Testament people, places, and events as historical truth. He refers to Genesis 1 and 2, Abel in Genesis 4, David eating the showbread, and Elisha among other historical figures. He repeatedly speaks of the sufferings of the prophets of old (Matt. 5:12, Matt. 13:57, Matt. 23:34-36, Mark 6:4). In a message of warning, Jesus also describes the days of Noah: “As … they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt. 24:38, 39, NKJV).
It foreshadowed his life, ministry, death and resurrection and the Jewish leaders had no excuse for ignorance because they themselves acknowledged it.
“Then one of them named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year spoke up; You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish. He didn’t say this on his own but as high priest that year, prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. So from that day on they plotted to take his life”. John 11: 45-54
Islam doesn’t acknowledge the cross/vicarious atonement. Something that Christ repeatedly says as the main reason for His coming (Matthew 20:28, 18:21, Luke 24:13-32). Therefore, for me as a christian, the Law and the Testimony do not corroborate Muhammad or the claims of the Gabriel that spoke to him.

I agree with what @pescatarian said, that in your query, you seem to be discounting rebellion. For example, you could take your evidence of a spherical earth to a flat earther or heliocentric theory to earth centrics. Them refusing to believe your evidence doesn’t negate it or make it false. The “complicated human issues” that you bring up involve freewill. God gave us freewill and as such, He respects it.

It gets even more precarious see these two threads (HERE and HERE) . The powers that be are hard at work in creating a “new religion” with “outside help”. Now, when a realistic otherworldly being appears in the skies and starts making religious statements, how and what are you going to use to vet his claims? If you’ve discredited the Law and the Testimony, won’t his claims have a higher chance of standing?

"If it is possible to feed artificial thought into the multigenic field via satellite, the mind control of the entire planet is now possible. An individual's only resistance would be to constantly question the motivation behind their thoughts and not act upon thoughts which they consider to be outside their own ideological, religious and moral boundaries.'"~Lt. Col John Alexander
 






Aero

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Why should you get into a conflict with a group of people by creating a false belief in your mind because of a claim made by someone out there?
I think you are missing the point. Or resistant to the fact that conflict can promote growth.

Conflict is also inevitable between people of different cultures, especially for natural resources. You bring up false beliefs, and I would counter and say nobody waits until they are on the brink of starving to find food. Our minds tell us to eat before we are even technically hungry. So being hungry is a false belief, but important for survival.
 






DanRaleigh

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I think you are missing the point. Or resistant to the fact that conflict can promote growth.

Conflict is also inevitable between people of different cultures, especially for natural resources. You bring up false beliefs, and I would counter and say nobody waits until they are on the brink of starving to find food. Our minds tell us to eat before we are even technically hungry. So being hungry is a false belief, but important for survival.
Does that mean you are claiming God(father of Jesus) created the conflict by knowing?

@Karlysymon, In short, is this what you are saying? If someone (Jesus) claims that he is communicating with God and if he referring to the same old sacred text, then Jewish leaders should accept the new beliefs and practices (even if it contradicts)?
 






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TokiEl

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If Jesus tells them an entirely different set of beliefs and practices, then the outcome would be rejection. And not only that they would even think that Jesus is crazy or a false prophet.
Jesus told them that He was the Messiah they were waiting for... but the jewish establishment rejected Him.

Why did the jewish establishment reject Him ?


John 8 43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

John 10 31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?” 33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man,
declare Yourself to be God.”



They rejected Him because they belonged to the devil... and so they can't understand God.
 






DanRaleigh

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Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil,
Sorry, this verse is not clear. Is it that Jesus was implying that the fathers of all Jewish leaders/people are the devil? or just because they reject, then their father's would be devil? or something else?
 






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TokiEl

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Sorry, this verse is not clear. Is it that Jesus was implying that the fathers of all Jewish leaders/people is the devil? or just because they reject, then their father would be the devil?
When God is standing right in front of you speaking... and all you do is quarrel and wanting to kill Him... you do not belong to God but the devil.
 






DanRaleigh

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When God is standing right in front of you speaking.
God spoke to them before Jesus came to the Earth and his actions created unique religious beliefs and practices among them than what Jesus was telling. So how can they know if Jesus was telling the truth? They would obviously think of Jesus as a false prophet who is trying to convert them to another religion.
 






TokiEl

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God spoke to them before Jesus came to the Earth and his actions created unique religious beliefs and practices among them than what Jesus was telling. So how can they know if Jesus was telling the truth? They would obviously think of Jesus as a false prophet who is trying to convert them to another religion.
They were waiting for the Messiah... but when the Messiah came they didn't gel...

They didn't gel because One was of God and the others were of the devil.
 






DanRaleigh

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They were waiting for the Messiah
So the issue is while they waiting for the messiah (with a set of beliefs they had), Jesus was telling them an entirely different story. Their reaction is not something to Surprise. If Jesus had common sense then Jesus would have understood the issue and asked his father to talk to them directly. On the other hand, if the intelligence claims to be God had common sense then he would have spoken to them directly.
 






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