20,000 Orthodox Jews protest against the Zionist state and its army in NYC

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#2
I wish I could find the video clip of the orthodox Jewish fellows protesting the Zionist state of Israel with principle and moral/religious authority...... only to have a "reform" Jewish person come by and say things that I wont reprint here..... yet still be unable to refute their arguments with any form of truth.......
 





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#3
Powerful! This makes Christian Zionism look so, so stupid. A couple quotes I wrote down from the brother's speech:

"The state of Israel has as much to do with Judaism as China or Korea."

"The strongest tool of propaganda is their army... to teach their recruits how to serve the zionist Gods."

"Israel is a church of zionism."
 





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#4
Satmar Jews (whom you see in the video) generally believe, as per their interpretation of the Talmud, that Israel must be given by God and its walls not erected by man itself, and that Israel will be given after they have received the moshiach. In this particular case, they are protesting military conscription for Israeli Jews. However, they account for about 70,000 people in total, women and children included. Neturei Karta are about 5,000. Put together, both remain a small minority.

84% of orthodox Jews in the US believe Israel was given to the Jews by God (source). Most orthodox Jews reason that Israel wasn't taken by force, but given to them by an international coalition of gentiles after centuries of oppression.

The statement that Zionism or Israel has nothing to do with Judaism is more feelings-based than factual. I understand the sentiment of some orthodox Jews to disassociate this rogue state from their belief system, but it just doesn't add up. Eretz Yisrael is biblical, not historical. The modern Jews are not historically linked to the land, they are linked through their religion. The rebuilding of the Temple is a Judaic project, not a secular one.

For the large majority of orthodox Jews, politics is the enabler of deeper religious prophecy. It would be wise for the goy world to remember that.

 





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#5
Satmar Jews (whom you see in the video) generally believe, as per their interpretation of the Talmud, that Israel must be given by God and its walls not erected by man itself, and that Israel will be given after they have received the moshiach. In this particular case, they are protesting military conscription for Israeli Jews. However, they account for about 70,000 people in total, women and children included. Neturei Karta are about 5,000. Put together, both remain a small minority.

84% of orthodox Jews in the US believe Israel was given to the Jews by God (source). Most orthodox Jews reason that Israel wasn't taken by force, but given to them by an international coalition of gentiles after centuries of oppression.

The statement that Zionism or Israel has nothing to do with Judaism is more feelings-based than factual. I understand the sentiment of some orthodox Jews to disassociate this rogue state from their belief system, but it just doesn't add up. Eretz Yisrael is biblical, not historical. The modern Jews are not historically linked to the land, they are linked through their religion. The rebuilding of the Temple is a Judaic project, not a secular one.

For the large majority of orthodox Jews, politics is the enabler of deeper religious prophecy. It would be wise for the goy world to remember that.

That is not Satmar in the video that I posted. That is Natrena. In any case, you are over simplifying things with a broad stroke, quoting percentages from pro Zionist propaganda, and obviously did not watch the video, as it is clearly stated there that true Jewish beliefs believe Israel is a people, not a place. Yes, some Orthodox Jews are also Zionists, that video that you posted being one example. But most truly Orthodox and secular Rabbinical Jews are not, as Zionism is the opposite of Judaism and was created by athiests. In fact, the longest running feud about Zionism, and the biggest enemies of it, are the Orthodox and secular Rabbinical Jews. And the Zionists can't stand them with a passion either. This fight has been going on between them for 100 years, since Herzl created Zionism and wrote Der Judenstaat based on German and European nationalism, not Judaism.
 





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#7
In this particular case, they are protesting military conscription for Israeli Jews.
Why are they protesting against conscription when they aren’t subject to it?

And why are they considered by people like you, and others posting on this thread, to be “Jews”, when they are Ashkenazim? I thought Ashkenazi Jews weren’t really Jews.
 





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#8
Why are they protesting against conscription when they aren’t subject to it?

And why are they considered by people like you, and others posting on this thread, to be “Jews”, when they are Ashkenazim? I thought Ashkenazi Jews weren’t really Jews.
1st question:

I think it's because the Hasidic students were also targeted for IDF conscription and some of those who refused were arrested.

2nd question:

Ashkenazim refers to an ethnic identity. Jew is a religious identity.
 





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#9
1st question:

I think it's because the Hasidic students were also targeted for IDF conscription and some of those who refused were arrested.
But these people aren’t in Israel, and aren’t subject to conscription.

2nd question:
Ashkenazim refers to an ethnic identity. Jew is a religious identity.
So are these people Jews, or not?
 





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#12
But not ethnically Jewish?
Obviously they have an ethnicity due to their endogamic inclinations, but does it trace back to the biblical Judaeans? There's no evidence of that. Depending on what theory you believe in, that Ashkenazi hail from the west or east of Europe, neither show any genetic links to the people of Judea.

A descendant of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob, or someone who converts to Judaism.
You mean they are genetic descendants of Abraham?
 





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#13
What I’m trying to determine is why some of the posters here believe the opinions and actions of these anti-Zionist Jews should matter any more than those of Zionist Jews. Why are these Ashkenazi Jews considered to be “real” Jews by people like @Stephania and @DavidSon who deny the Jewishness of Ashkenazis living in Israel?

What makes one group of people Jews, and the other not? It couldn’t be that one group is against Israel, and one isn’t? Could it? That would be awfully self serving and stupid, wouldn’t it?

See, I don’t have that problem, because my definition of who is a Jew doesn’t depend on that person’s opinion of Zionism. A Jew is a Jew, even if they hate Israel, but, according to some, a Jew is only a Jew if they agree with those who want Israel destroyed.

But I’d love to see someone who’s definition isn’t so straightforward and logical explain how that works.
 





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#14
Good to see you chose not to slip on that last question.

But yes, I'm on board with you on that one. Non-Jews deciding who may rightfully identify as Jews is like non-Christians telling Christians what Christianity is.

A Jew's position on Zionism has no bearing on the legitimacy of their Jewish identity, I agree.
 





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#15
Good to see you chose not to slip on that last question.

But yes, I'm on board with you on that one. Non-Jews deciding who may rightfully identify as Jews is like non-Christians telling Christians what Christianity is.

A Jew's position on Zionism has no bearing on the legitimacy of their Jewish identity, I agree.
Jewish law instructs that unless a person converts (and they aint hiring if anyone has noticed), the only way for them to be considered "truly" Jewish is by birth from an ethnically (or from the small minority of female converts) Jewish mother, correct?
 





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#16
Jewish law instructs that unless a person converts (and they aint hiring if anyone has noticed), the only way for them to be considered "truly" Jewish is by birth from an ethnically (or from the small minority of female converts) Jewish mother, correct?
Yes, one has to be Jewish of matrileneal descent. If a non-Jew wants to convert to the Judaic religion, a rabbi will say no three times. If the applicant persists, he will be allowed a thorough education.