10 Reasons Why Jesus Is Not God!

[Red Sky at Morning]

My reference to "leading the witness" had nothing to do with @grateful servant. It was a reference to the way I had constructed my original paragraph, on the aborted sacrifice of Isaac. At that point, she hadn't even yet responded. By saying that I was leading the witness, I was acknowledging that, by the way I constructed the paragraph, it left only one interpretation. That you rightly challenged, by providing orthodox Christian commentary.

From my side, I have neither martyred myself nor do I operate from a place of contempt of and for any subject thus far discussed in this thread. If you care to be more specific, I am probably willing to answer, and rarely do I confuse curiosity with either nosiness or intrusiveness. I like clarity.
_______________
@Red Sky at Morning: for what it is worth, you are quoting me before I finally edited my own statement. That doesn't necessarily invalidate your response, but I sometimes tweak on details, in case that character trait of mine has gone unnoticed.

I do that too! I'm obviously at a loose end today and too quick on the draw with my comments!!!

 

[grateful servant]

How so?
It is what you cited, from the bible, quoted verbatim... or rather, quoted correctly. We aren't talking about the quran.



I am not amazed that you don't, any longer, and I'm content to leave you to it. But I will point out errors like yours for the record, when you cite biblical text, improperly (one would hope it is only done out of ignorance).

Where did I cite biblical text or quote anything verbatim? Is Jesus like Isaac or the ram in that typology? And for the record, I haven't contradicted what the Bible says, I've only contradicted the mainstream Christian interpretation of it. Not of ignorance but out of love for the truth and the hope that more people be saved from idolatry.

 

[elsbet]

Where did I cite biblical text or quote anything verbatim? ...

And for the record, I haven't contradicted what the Bible says, I've only contradicted the mainstream Christian interpretation of it. ...

You don't understand the 'mainstream interpretation.'

You cited biblical text when you incorrectly said Jonah should have died like Jesus after the 3 days-- which is wrong, and a bit comical really, because Jesus was already dead, at that point.

I quoted it, verbatim (not you), to illustrate the error, and the proper order in which the events took place, regarding Jonah. As for Abraham-- I quoted the purpose behind that, which is clearly stated by Abraham, himself.

It's not an Isaac v. Ishmael argument, as you likely assumed. It was simply a correction of your (textually incorrect) presumptions.

 

[grateful servant]

You don't understand the 'mainstream interpretation.'

You cited biblical text when you incorrectly said Jonah should have died like Jesus after the 3 days-- which is wrong, and a bit comical really, because Jesus was already dead, at that point.

I quoted it, verbatim (not you), to illustrate the error, and the proper order in which the events took place, regarding Jonah. As for Abraham-- I quoted the purpose behind that, which is clearly stated by Abraham, himself.

It's not an Isaac v. Ishmael argument, as you likely assumed. It was simply a correction of your (textually incorrect) presumptions.

I never mentioned anything about Isaac and Ishmael (Abraham's only son for some 14 years before Isaac was born) either as you claim I likely assumed , but if you want to discuss them, I'm in .

After reading through the thread, I found a better explanation of the mainstream position in Serv's post here > #282 which I understand better now, Still, I'm wondering though, and perhaps you can clear it up for me... in the 'binding of Isaac' typology, is Jesus like Isaac or is Jesus like the ram? If Jesus is like the ram then who is like Isaac?

I never said anything about Jonah being dead after being thrown out from the whale, you read my original post wrong. According to Christians, Jesus was killed, buried and rose back to life after three days...In the Biblical story of Jonah, Jonah was swallowed by a whale, not killed or dead, and then vomited out after three days ...If we are to believe that Jesus is like Jonas, then Jesus wouldn't have been dead while in the tomb just as Jonah wasn't dead in the whale.

 

[elsbet]

My reference to "leading the witness" had nothing to do with @grateful servant. It was a reference to the way I had constructed my original paragraph, on the aborted sacrifice of Isaac. At that point, she hadn't even yet responded (to me). The two of us, and others, had discussed the subject before, on the previous version of this board, and there was a bit of a carry-over which may have been unclear. Sorry about that. By saying that I was leading the witness, I was acknowledging that, by the way I constructed the paragraph, it left only one interpretation, a forced conclusion. That you rightly challenged, by providing more details and orthodox Christian commentary.

From my side, I have neither approached being martyred nor do I operate from a place of contempt for any subject thus far discussed in this thread. If you care to be more specific, I am probably willing to answer, and rarely do I confuse curiosity with either nosiness or intrusiveness. I like clarity, but tend, not always successfully, to avoid board drama.

I knew what you meant.

No drama intended, I assure you. And I am not successful at avoiding it, myself, as much as I wish. It's damned difficult, considering the subject matter, and that is that.

And no contempt... fair enough. I'll take your word for it. I'm usually pretty good at reading intent, but text lacks the benefit of inflection-- it can be deceptive. I do wonder how you and I think it is @yannick came to entertain Islam coming from Christian / Orthodox backgrounds. Muslim friends would be my guess.

 

[elsbet]

After reading through the thread, I found a better explanation of the mainstream position in Serv's post here > #282 which I understand better now, Still, I'm wondering though, and perhaps you can clear it up for me... in the 'binding of Isaac' typology, is Jesus like Isaac or is Jesus like the ram? If Jesus is like the ram then who is like Isaac?

I never said anything about Jonah being dead after being thrown out from the whale, you read my original post wrong. According to Christians, Jesus was killed, buried and rose back to life after three days...In the Biblical story of Jonah, Jonah was swallowed by a whale, not killed or dead, and then vomited out after three days ...If we are to believe that Jesus is like Jonas, then Jesus wouldn't have been dead while in the tomb just as Jonah wasn't dead in the whale.

Go back and read the initial post. I covered that, regarding Jonah. As for Abraham-- I covered that too, in bold. Twice, I believe. It isn't rocket science. What do YOU think?

 

[grateful servant]

Go back and read the initial post. I covered that, regarding Jonah. As for Abraham-- I covered that too, in bold. Twice, I believe. It isn't rocket science. What do YOU think?

Funny, I was going to write in my last reply to you that - "it isn't rocket science" The way I see it, all the clear evidence points to what I believe but I'll re- read your intial response to me tomorrow inshaAllah and tell you what I think.

 

[Karlysymon]

Christianity requires that its followers say God does not appear as different in the OT and NT. So of course Christian have to say there is no difference.

I am not very familiar with Beloved but I agree in general with a lot of what Karlysimon says. I like that she also seems to appreciate the work of David McGowan who I think wrote great stuff. Plus, I believe she's anti-Zionist and is one of those respectable Christians who sides with the oppressed and not the oppressors. But with all respect, I do of course have to disagree with her.

It isn't about what "christianity says", when you privately study your bible, you eventually come around to the fact that God is the same in the old as in the new testament.

On the other hand, the forum residents may tire of you calling me out as Dave McGowan's biggest fan, of which, i rightly am , despite the fact that he believed Jesus and christianity to be Roman inventions.

 

[elsbet]

I don't know if I can agree with you being David McGowan's biggest fan. I'm a pretty big David McGowan fan myself

people are free to call me out as a David McGowan fan- I would happily accept the title. I am a huge David McGowan fan.

I'm just genuinely happy that someone else gets that David McGowan was a great researcher. I mean this guy seriously and likely permanently changed my understanding of the 1960's- and of course my entire understanding of US popular and mass culture.

But not only that but just his style- the way he would put fact after after fact after fact. His rigorous approach to evidence, I think was astounding and I don't think any researcher I know of was quite that rigorous in how he would do that fact, after fact, after fact thing.

I still remember when I opened Programmed to Kill and how I ended up pretty much reading the entire thing in one sitting. I was hooked. Programmed to Kill, CIA and Laurel Canyon book, The F Word, his website- mindblowing stuff.

I'm with you, though- I don't understand how he could have been so brilliant yet not seem to be particularly spiritual.

I listened to an interview with him... it was for the Laurel Canyon book... the interview was an Indian Christian if I remember right.... and there was a debate between him and the interviewer.... however you interpret things spiritually- I think at some point in researching that stuff, there comes a point where it seems undeniable there are some sort of spiritual forces at work. And that was the interviewer's position and David McGowan... I think he got sort of uncomfortable and maybe felt a little awkward and he seemed to not be particularly religious or spiritual and to not think there was anything spiritual going on with the phenomena he was describing. Which to me just seems incredibly baffling.

This is where you shine.. ever-mercurial, your candor trumps all. I thought I had no idea who McGowan was, but now I know exactly who you are talking about.

Js.

 

[Karlysymon]

I don't know if I can agree with you being David McGowan's biggest fan. I'm a pretty big David McGowan fan myself

people are free to call me out as a David McGowan fan- I would happily accept the title. I am a huge David McGowan fan.

Please take your hands off of my crown, thank you! But thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated.
His death was a loss that cut deep, to this day. Death, I hate you!!! *shakes fist*

I'm with you, though- I don't understand how he could have been so brilliant yet not seem to be particularly spiritual.

Yeah, its something that pops up quite abit. You have these excellent researchers who aren't particularly spiritual. A one Joe Atwill, whose tome may interest the resident professor (@Serveto), espoused the same beliefs as McGowan. Caesar's Messiah
They do believe there is a higher power (Programmed to Kill would probably convince an atheist..haha), they just seem to struggle with the 'Jesus' part.

 

[yannick]

Death, I hate you!!

You shouldn't! Take my word for it, if you want to, that is.

@yannick came to entertain Islam coming from Christian / Orthodox backgrounds.

May I please beg your pardon?

Great thread and great discussions going on here anyway! I'm silenced since I'm so ignorant concerning so many things! May we all be enlightened!

 

[elsbet]

You shouldn't! Take my word for it, if you want to, that is.



May I please beg your pardon?

Great thread and great discussions going on here anyway! I'm silenced since I'm so ignorant concerning so many things! May we all be enlightened!

Maybe I have you confused with someone else? Or was it Jewish and Russian Orthodox?

I cannot remember!

 

[Kung Fu]

Maybe I have you confused with someone else? Or was it Jewish and Russian Orthodox?

I cannot remember!

Can't argue with you there.

 

[elsbet]

Can't argue with you there.

You know yannick, personally, or speaking from both sides of your mouth again?

@yannick
I think I had you confused with @yiksmes

RUSSIAN ORTHODOX

 

[yannick]

N E V 3 R M I N D
N 3 V E R W I N T 3 R
U F G N U K
&
T 3 B S L E


See the above? Shaped kind like a heart? Send one back to me?

(Sorry to Etagloc for going off-topic)​

 

[Claire Rousseau]

He is the messiah who was promised to the jews, that jews were waiting for. I'm not a jew, so I'm not waiting for him to come, so that I can recognise him.
Well, Quran does not get very specific, unless when it is necessary to know. But I don't think that's a good enough excuse for not knowing it as a muslim. I don't know because I have not researched enough, and I'm new to bible.
But I think it is not really necessary to repeat everything word by word, when you're confirming a pervious religon. There is a verse in Quran that encourages people of the book (christians and jews) to consider and have faith about things that are identical in bible and Quran. So Islam does not reject the whole bible, and somehow I find this verse a sign that bible will be of help to us. as about what you say that quran has to explain the description of messiah, I have to ask you, don't you ever refer to the OT when you want to know about pervious prophets? don't u refer to it when you want to know about Moses? It is not shocking that you know more about jesus, because you see him as yr way to salvation.
but we see him as a special pervious prophet, and we are taught to follow muhammad to find salvation, and that both of them brought pretty much the same thing.
So i think muslims should research more, but that does not mean that quran is rejectable because we do not know the exact explanation provided in bible! There's enough explanation in Quran about Jesus, If you want to know him in muslims' point of view.
I personaly like to hear what is stated about Messiah in bible, If you'd be kind enough and explain it to me.

Wait a second....Muhammad CANNOT save you.

Muhammad’s body is still in the grave. So is Buddha’s, so is Mary’s, etc.

The ONLY one whose body is no longer in the grave is the body of Jesus the Christ. He was resurrected 3 days after He died on the Cross to atone for OUR sins.

He came FORTH DIRECTLY FROM God, making Him THE ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.

THAT is what qualifies Him as The prophecied Messiah.

Quran calls Jesus Messiah, but it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Islam teaches Christians are idolaters because we believe that a “man” became God.

That is false.

We believe GOD became man to save us from our sins.

And that is the error of Quran, it misunderstands what Christians believe and falsely accuses us of idolatry because of it & then says we will go to Hell for it, and prescribes us the death penalty for it.

From the Quran:
“Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment.

The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).“.........Surah 5:72;74-75

 

[vigilante71]

Wait a second....Muhammad CANNOT save you.
Muhammad’s body is still in the grave. So is Buddha’s, so is Mary’s, etc.

Muhammad never claimed he is a savior. He was a messenger. He never claimed he will be back as the Messiah.

He came FORTH DIRECTLY FROM God, making Him THE ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.

THAT is what qualifies Him as The prophesied Messiah. .

Yes, Jesus came from God, no one denies that. But from what I've learned so far, the prophecies about Messiah in the OT are so much more than him being The Only Be Gotten Son of God. Actually, most of the prophecies are about how he is the descendant of previous remarkable prophets, and how he will be glorious, and how he is going to beat Satan and rule in an Eternal Kingdom. There are some that refer to him as the son of God, but in many of them (Not all), the point of prophecy is something else, and that's not the most repeated sign in prophecies. But of course, you know it better than me.

Quran calls Jesus Messiah, but it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

So what does Messiah mean? That he is God? or the Son of God? the Messiah is the savior, the savior of mankind. The one who destroys the kingdom of evil. The one whom all believers are waiting for at the end of times. That's what we believe he is. And we are waiting for him, as much as you are.

Islam teaches Christians are idolaters because we believe that a “man” became God.
That is false.

Yes, that is false, because Christians (followers of Christ) are not idolaters, and because Quran does not say all Christians are idolaters.
“Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers."
It is saying those who consider the Messiah as God, not those who follow Christ (Christians), are wrong. Because the Messiah never said worship me! He himself worshipped and prayed to God. It's easy to see how people of those time could see him as God, or son of God. He was so special and miraculous. Associating someone with God is stating that something or someone besides God, is God. That God is not One and Only, That he has a son, That Gods are the father and the son. If those claims are not associating a partner with God, what does partnering someone with God mean exactly?

We believe GOD became man to save us from our sins.

How does that make sense? Sorry, but it does not to me.
I tend to believe God has sent someone to show us how to behave, to teach us the way to live, to guide us to Him, rather than to say he stepped down or sent his son to get killed for our sins! That's what I understand from manifesting the Word of God into flesh. That someone as a living proof of God's existence and the righteous way of life is sent to guide us. God can forgive all of our sins, when we deserve it, it's not necessary to come down as a human and get killed by us so that we could believe him, and the holy spirit comes within us, and we'd be saved. God will save us from sins, when we turn onto him and his messengers and try to obey him, and that save could be done under the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is not necessarily God himself. It is a spirit from God. I'm still trying to make sense of Holy Spirit though.


I know you are sincere and I appreciate your explanations, I somehow feel that everything you say comes from the bottom of your heart and you are faithful, but my faith in Islam has grown by reading the bible.
So let me explain my thoughts to you:
To me, It seems like Quran knows perfectly what misunderstandings have happened for followers of Christ, and It is stating and correcting them one by one. It does not condemn Christians, It does not deny Jesus, and his miraculous life, It doesn't say Christians, the followers of Christ will go to hell, It is trying to help us distinguish a miracle, a prophecy that came true for proving God's Existence to man, the coming of a savior, from associating someone with God. It's just an explicit clearance, for those who have gone astray, out of wonder, respect, love for Jesus or whatever reason else. At the same time, It is confirming what Jesus has brought and introduces him as Messiah. We are waiting for his return, as much as you are!

Now all of this, coming from an ordinary illiterate person, who was living amongst the worst, lustful, violent Arabic tribes, who were always fighting with each other and after 600 years, is enough for me to believe it as a miracle. Of course, there are other reasons, too.

You have read Quran in English. But I have always heard it in Arabic my whole life. I believe Quran in Arabic is so much more powerful to read and hear. Someone illiterate could not just make that meaningful and rhyming words on his own. You see the differences because you already believe in the bible. But all I see is how could Muhammad know what had happened to Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Noah, The Seven Sleepers, Adam and so much more and say it little by little, word by word to his followers through 23 years. Yet when you read it in Arabic you feel the consistency through all of it. It's not like a book that is written by a man through 23 years. It's not poetry, It's not a history book, and It's not a normal book either. It is a book that is designed as a whole, by some power beyond mankind. It does not teach esoteric rituals, It is showing us the way to stay away from Satan.
I was always drawn to it in my teenage years but could not make much sense of it. My mind refused to believe because I did not want my faith to be one-sided. Bible has helped me so much, I didn't read it to be able to confirm Quran, I just wanted to know what's in there, but It did confirm why Quran is sent for. I'm still trying though.

Somehow by getting acquainted with Bible, I have reached a place in my faith in Islam that I can not go back. I have felt feelings that I just can't ignore. I just can't go back to my doubts and say I didn't see anything or I would be a hypocrite.
Seems like this is a neverending argument.
I sincerely hope God guide us all to him.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Muhammad never claimed he is a savior. He was a messenger. He never claimed he will be back as the Messiah.


Yes, Jesus came from God, no one denies that. But from what I've learned so far, the prophecies about Messiah in the OT are so much more than him being The Only Be Gotten Son of God. Actually, most of the prophecies are about how he is the descendant of previous remarkable prophets, and how he will be glorious, and how he is going to beat Satan and rule in an Eternal Kingdom. There are some that refer to him as the son of God, but in many of them (Not all), the point of prophecy is something else, and that's not the most repeated sign in prophecies. But of course, you know it better than me.



So what does Messiah mean? That he is God? or the Son of God? the Messiah is the savior, the savior of mankind. The one who destroys the kingdom of evil. The one whom all believers are waiting for at the end of times. That's what we believe he is. And we are waiting for him, as much as you are.


Yes, that is false, because Christians (followers of Christ) are not idolaters, and because Quran does not say all Christians are idolaters.
“Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers."
It is saying those who consider the Messiah as God, not those who follow Christ (Christians), are wrong. Because the Messiah never said worship me! He himself worshipped and prayed to God. It's easy to see how people of those time could see him as God, or son of God. He was so special and miraculous. Associating someone with God is stating that something or someone besides God, is God. That God is not One and Only, That he has a son, That Gods are the father and the son. If those claims are not associating a partner with God, what does partnering someone with God mean exactly?


How does that make sense? Sorry, but it does not to me.
I tend to believe God has sent someone to show us how to behave, to teach us the way to live, to guide us to Him, rather than to say he stepped down or sent his son to get killed for our sins! That's what I understand from manifesting the Word of God into flesh. That someone as a living proof of God's existence and the righteous way of life is sent to guide us. God can forgive all of our sins, when we deserve it, it's not necessary to come down as a human and get killed by us so that we could believe him, and the holy spirit comes within us, and we'd be saved. God will save us from sins, when we turn onto him and his messengers and try to obey him, and that save could be done under the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is not necessarily God himself. It is a spirit from God. I'm still trying to make sense of Holy Spirit though.


I know you are sincere and I appreciate your explanations, I somehow feel that everything you say comes from the bottom of your heart and you are faithful, but my faith in Islam has grown by reading the bible.
So let me explain my thoughts to you:
To me, It seems like Quran knows perfectly what misunderstandings have happened for followers of Christ, and It is stating and correcting them one by one. It does not condemn Christians, It does not deny Jesus, and his miraculous life, It doesn't say Christians, the followers of Christ will go to hell, It is trying to help us distinguish a miracle, a prophecy that came true for proving God's Existence to man, the coming of a savior, from associating someone with God. It's just an explicit clearance, for those who have gone astray, out of wonder, respect, love for Jesus or whatever reason else. At the same time, It is confirming what Jesus has brought and introduces him as Messiah. We are waiting for his return, as much as you are!

Now all of this, coming from an ordinary illiterate person, who was living amongst the worst, lustful, violent Arabic tribes, who were always fighting with each other and after 600 years, is enough for me to believe it as a miracle. Of course, there are other reasons, too.

You have read Quran in English. But I have always heard it in Arabic my whole life. I believe Quran in Arabic is so much more powerful to read and hear. Someone illiterate could not just make that meaningful and rhyming words on his own. You see the differences because you already believe in the bible. But all I see is how could Muhammad know what had happened to Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Noah, The Seven Sleepers, Adam and so much more and say it little by little, word by word to his followers through 23 years. Yet when you read it in Arabic you feel the consistency through all of it. It's not like a book that is written by a man through 23 years. It's not poetry, It's not a history book, and It's not a normal book either. It is a book that is designed as a whole, by some power beyond mankind. It does not teach esoteric rituals, It is showing us the way to stay away from Satan.
I was always drawn to it in my teenage years but could not make much sense of it. My mind refused to believe because I did not want my faith to be one-sided. Bible has helped me so much, I didn't read it to be able to confirm Quran, I just wanted to know what's in there, but It did confirm why Quran is sent for. I'm still trying though.

Somehow by getting acquainted with Bible, I have reached a place in my faith in Islam that I can not go back. I have felt feelings that I just can't ignore. I just can't go back to my doubts and say I didn't see anything or I would be a hypocrite.
Seems like this is a neverending argument.
I sincerely hope God guide us all to him.

I suspect that the only thing that might sway your view is if the prophetic events anticipated both in the Qur'an and the Bible happen in our lifetime. There are reasons for thinking that they may.

I would acquaint yourself with what might happen from a Biblical perspective, even it you currently think such ideas are groundless speculation based on an inferior Book.

 

[vigilante71]

I suspect that the only thing that might sway your view is if the prophetic events anticipated both in the Qur'an and the Bible happen in our lifetime. There are reasons for thinking that they may.

I would acquaint yourself with what might happen from a Biblical perspective, even it you currently think such ideas are groundless speculation based on an inferior Book.

Thank you. I'll check it out. I don't think Bible is inferior. I think the process of interpretation could affect the original meanings, though.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Thank you. I'll check it out. I don't think Bible is inferior. I think the process of interpretation could affect the original meanings, though.

If by that you mean the original meaning can be lost (on us) through our incorrect interpretive frameworks, I agree.