“Whosoever”

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#41
Honestly, I'm just sticking to reading God's word and trying to grow in my relationship with Him. That's where my focus is. Study into the different interpretations or schools of thought form part of things I look into, yes, but they don't undermine my faith or call it into question. Again to believe that there is all this red tape around a relationship with the Creator is to pretty much exclude those who cannot surpass the initial "naivety". What hope does the average Joe have in God outside of the assumptions of the text head on?
First off, I will say Robin that I appreciate your attitude and general worldview more than any of the others I have encountered here. You speak from a view I very much relate to in many ways. Not identical but very relateable.

There are two basic things from this quote here:

1. Is God is beyond religion, that is the fundamental truth of reality itself.​
This is itself a massive problem with proselytizing, as well as the kinds of antagonistic preaching I have received around here falls into the category of worshiping the religion itself, rather than worshiping God.
2. But to determine religions themselves, to actually have knowledge and understanding does require work.​
And of course factoring in the differences of views within a particular religion too. Aside from this, when it comes to Islam and Judaism, there are a lot of things I know Christians struggle with in understanding them and it is something that cannot be avoided when representing them (Islam and Judaism) and the complexity of their theology, history, lifestyles and so forth. When it comes to what varies between polemic and outright bashing on this forum, there is no room for discussion, let alone understanding of these things.

Outside of the bias of your own religious leanings
These are not solely my 'religious leanings' speaking but, I will proceed:

I have to ask why you say the meanings in Christianity are reversed? Can you offer me something concrete? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. And you still haven't answered my question as to why God would layer such meaning thus making it incomprehensible to many people. Why would he choose to implement a plan of salvation that requires even some amount of skill to decipher when the very people who need it most are most unlikely to possess it?
One simple, easily identifiable thing for instance would be Jesus' actual allegorical symbology such as terms like "The Father", "The Son" and so forth. To say things the least controversially, there are interpretations inherent (and historically valid) in these texts that are very different from the kind of Christianity that you may follow. Certainly, if you've studied any Monistic philosophy many of Jesus' (attributed) sayings will make a lot more and even more profounder sense. Aside from this there is the situation of Christian theology going and taking his allegories and applying them to Jesus himself literally and not allowing closer examination.
The most significant reversal would be turning the idea of Jesus from a wise prophet descending down light to mankind, it rather doctrinally became a matter of worshiping Jesus-as-God, literally. This clearly contradicts the very principles of the Old Testament but I will avoid hammering it to you.

What I was condemning in this scenario was a doctrine that not only moved directly against the very words of Jesus on this issue but that caused many to reject faith in God.
Yes, and part of my point there is that it is easy for a Christian to recognize this in their own supposed faith and get very offended by it, however in the situation of another faith, there is the repetitive notion (in my experience with the Christians here) to use that as a valid representation of the other's religion, which results in the very hypocrisy I've been speaking about.
And I only say this in my first reply to Dalit because it has been happening, not that I have any axe to grind with Christianity myself (as you may remember me saying somewhere here, I do appreciate the Bible and some forms of Christianity. Aside from that Jesus is obviously one of my Prophets..)

Hopefully you understand me correctly.

See but does this forum contain all self-professing Christians. I'll put it to you this way - the majority of Muslims I've come into contact with have not been the nicest people. I have a family member married into a Muslim family so I don't have to make up experiences on this front. In fact, most have been exceptionally arrogant and bigoted in their own right and did not follow the conditions of their own faith. So much so in fact, that there is a word for them in my parents' native language that denotes a "watered-down" muslim. I haven't let that affect my opinion of Islam or its followers in future interactions though because I choose to recognise a tree by it's fruit, as Jesus said (as opposed to a tree claiming to be an apple tree but flowering oranges for example). I'm not saying what I'm saying to be cheeky or to "even the playing field". I'm just pointing out that while I'm fully aware of the common way in which many Christians live counter to their own doctrine, this is hardly an exclusive thing. I hate hypocrisy especially when it comes to this topic because that was one of the things that put a huge stumbling block in my faith. It took God's grace for me to realise that I should not let the movements of men prevent me from pursuing Him. There is nothing about Christian hypocrisy and poor representation you can tell me that I don't know or haven't personally experienced. That's why my relationship is with God and not a sect or church or label.
Yes, I do sympathize there.

Many of you are sola scriptura but you clearly don't follow all of your Bible in the first place, nor regard all of it's messages as primary.
^^^ This is what my response had to do with it. Yours was based on the assumption that you know many of us and how we choose to follow our bible.
Right. Well the biggest messages that the Christian users of this forum (at least four of them) give off around this topic is quite an anti-church vibe. From this comes the exaggeration of the 'personal relationship' with invested interest in a subjective interpretation of the Bible. Some users have still posted videos and such from a few preachers and apologists but I do get a strong cynicism (even a bit of hatred) towards churches here, with a general view of 'I know it for myself'. Sure, I could be wrong, but this sentiment has been shared by quite a few users, which made me state the above.

As far as the other bit, well Christianity in general does think itself to have usurped a large chunk of the laws of the Old Testament for some reason. Yes, I do already know the theological and apologetic justification for this (as well as certain quotes attributed to Jesus).
It still remains that the function of the Old Testament is missing from the Christian understanding of it, therefore a large chunk of it's messages are either rejected as irrelevant or reinterpreted through said theological and apologetic justification.
It's rather a digression on this point though nonetheless.
 





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#42
Coming back to the title of this thread, I wonder if anyone is familiar with the concept of the Rosetta Stone?


Grace is the Rosetta Stone of the Bible. It goes entirely counter to the”religious” mindset, leading many to wish to reinterpret the words of Jesus.

Without reaching the point where you know you have need of it, you will never find it.

If you have ever found it, nothing stays the same.

I love these words Jesus spoke to the confused and disappointed disciples on the road to Emmaus:-

Luke 24

25Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
 





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Robin

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#43
There are two basic things from this quote here:

1. Is God is beyond religion, that is the fundamental truth of reality itself.​
This is itself a massive problem with proselytizing, as well as the kinds of antagonistic preaching I have received around here falls into the category of worshiping the religion itself, rather than worshiping God.
2. But to determine religions themselves, to actually have knowledge and understanding does require work.​
And of course factoring in the differences of views within a particular religion too. Aside from this, when it comes to Islam and Judaism, there are a lot of things I know Christians struggle with in understanding them and it is something that cannot be avoided when representing them (Islam and Judaism) and the complexity of their theology, history, lifestyles and so forth. When it comes to what varies between polemic and outright bashing on this forum, there is no room for discussion, let alone understanding of these things.
I can understand that but my view and choice of faith and the ways in which I conduct myself on this forum and in real life are not set up with the intent to proselytize anyone. I do think God is bigger than religion, I think in many cases religion is man's attempt at framing God within the bounds of human perception and is easily corruptible as can be seen throughout history. This is why I think the recognition by fruit parable Jesus gave is crucial because if someone truly lives their faith, if they truly have experienced some kind of inner transformation and redemption, then that change will translate into their actions and words. They won't have to tell anyone what they believe. If it is the truth then they should be easily recognisable by their sincerity, I shouldn't have to "sell" the gospel to anyone as a gospel that can be pitched or sold is not one worth having. If our lives don't reflect that then we do a disservice to God.

We can all learn from each other here but at the end of the day, chances of changing our minds about whichever faith speaks to us personally is slim. I don't know a lot about Islam or Judaism which is why you'll note none of my posts ever tried to discuss them. I speak about Christianity because that's what I ascribe to and the belief I hold dear.


These are not solely my 'religious leanings' speaking but, I will proceed:



One simple, easily identifiable thing for instance would be Jesus' actual allegorical symbology such as terms like "The Father", "The Son" and so forth. To say things the least controversially, there are interpretations inherent (and historically valid) in these texts that are very different from the kind of Christianity that you may follow. Certainly, if you've studied any Monistic philosophy many of Jesus' (attributed) sayings will make a lot more and even more profounder sense. Aside from this there is the situation of Christian theology going and taking his allegories and applying them to Jesus himself literally and not allowing closer examination.
The most significant reversal would be turning the idea of Jesus from a wise prophet descending down light to mankind, it rather doctrinally became a matter of worshiping Jesus-as-God, literally. This clearly contradicts the very principles of the Old Testament but I will avoid hammering it to you.
My contention with this is that the four gospels are presupposed to be biographical, no? So if they were records of what Jesus did, they hold he spent most of his time preaching to commoners i.e. the crowds. Not the educated scribes and religious leaders, who would be apt to toss around philosophical musings and allegory. He made it clear when he used parables to simplify the complex (feeding them milk for example and slowly working up to meat) because they were unable to fully perceive the spiritual. In claiming his teachings to be entirely or largely symbolic it obfuscates his words to the point where deeper study would be required to decipher them - it makes a parable within a parable, a long chase to truth that requires knowledge of Monistic philosophy. I fail to see how this would be possible unless salvation and the path to God were reserved for an intellectual elite (but that sounds more occultic than anything else). Unless you can find a way for all of that knowledge to be faithfully condensed in a crowd-friendly package . . . I just can't agree with it. It allows for the vast majority of people to slip through the cracks. I can't agree with it because it becomes exclusionary.

Yes, and part of my point there is that it is easy for a Christian to recognize this in their own supposed faith and get very offended by it, however in the situation of another faith, there is the repetitive notion (in my experience with the Christians here) to use that as a valid representation of the other's religion, which results in the very hypocrisy I've been speaking about.
And I only say this in my first reply to Dalit because it has been happening, not that I have any axe to grind with Christianity myself (as you may remember me saying somewhere here, I do appreciate the Bible and some forms of Christianity. Aside from that Jesus is obviously one of my Prophets..)

Hopefully you understand me correctly.
I think I do but as I said earlier, I can take offence to and try and counter misrepresentations of my faith because it is my own. When presented with a contradiction or complication, I don't shout louder, I quietly go to study it. Even within groups individuals handle conflict and debate differently and I took issue with your blanket statements that implied some kind of "Christian collective". If hypocrisy exists it's individual hypocrisy.

Right. Well the biggest messages that the Christian users of this forum (at least four of them) give off around this topic is quite an anti-church vibe. From this comes the exaggeration of the 'personal relationship' with invested interest in a subjective interpretation of the Bible. Some users have still posted videos and such from a few preachers and apologists but I do get a strong cynicism (even a bit of hatred) towards churches here, with a general view of 'I know it for myself'. Sure, I could be wrong, but this sentiment has been shared by quite a few users, which made me state the above.
Many Christians recognise the falseness of many strains of mainstream Christianity. This is one of the reasons I hate labels because you automatically align yourself with the extremist elements and generally understood conceptions of said label. Claiming Christianity does not automatically make one a Christian, actions speak far louder than words and many churches (as stated in the bible) have deviated from God's word and embraced a tepidity that does reap the expected consequences. This cynicism doesn't come from superiority or some kind of "subjective interpretation" -it comes from the frustration that in many ways Christianity is killing Christianity. Wolves in sheep's clothing, hegelian dialectic, fifth column techniques and all that jazz.

As far as the other bit, well Christianity in general does think itself to have usurped a large chunk of the laws of the Old Testament for some reason. Yes, I do already know the theological and apologetic justification for this (as well as certain quotes attributed to Jesus).
It still remains that the function of the Old Testament is missing from the Christian understanding of it, therefore a large chunk of it's messages are either rejected as irrelevant or reinterpreted through said theological and apologetic justification.
It's rather a digression on this point though nonetheless.
This could be a topic for an entirely new thread but I've come to find that the message of grace does not, in fact, usurp the laws of the old testament. Rather, the belief in Jesus as the lamb of God brings full circle what the OT had laid out to be received. It is not a ticket to 1960s Woodstock, nor is it a get-out-jail free card. I think its something that has been largely misunderstood as some excuse for escaping hell while living like a hedonist. I can try and explain it but it really would be going off topic for this thread. I might do it in the other one as it fits the topic of biblical scrutiny better but as I've said I do find both the OT and NT reconcilable and in fact, complementary. You don't have to take my word for it or believe it, that's okay. Just don't assume that those of us who believe and follow it have done so out of ignorance or desire to maintain carnality.
 





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#45
Here's a viewpoint from a major skeptic's radio show who questions how genuine Benny Hinn really is. Starts properly approx 4th minute.


I don't know what to think. I do hope BiblethumpingWingnut is being pessimistic about this apparent repentance.

The respondees on the Youtube channel do agree with him.
Update from affiliate website: Weeks after 'repenting' Benny Hinn preached prosperity seed faith giving again

Like Pulpit and Pen says at 26th minute Hinn preaches the need to "sow a seed' *translation* give him money to receive a blessing.
The charlatan must have noticed no donations post his self-proclaimed repentance from teaching that doctrine. Note verse 22 especially. 2 Peter chapter 2
 





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#46
Update from affiliate website: Weeks after 'repenting' Benny Hinn preached prosperity seed faith giving again

Like Pulpit and Pen says at 26th minute Hinn preaches the need to "sow a seed' *translation* give him money to receive a blessing.
The charlatan must have noticed no donations post his self-proclaimed repentance from teaching that doctrine. Note verse 22 especially. 2 Peter chapter 2
I remember reading the Book of Kings and thinking to myself what a bunch of wastrels most of them were. Imagine living a life that was concluded with the epitaph:-

“And he did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of his father, and in his sin by which he had made Israel sin.”
 





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#47
Dated 11th September 2019, interesting interview between Doreen Virtue and Costi Hinn (nephew of Benny Hinn):