“How does the thief on the cross fit into your theology?”

A Freeman

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The OP posits the mistaken belief that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was somehow "saved" in a last minute conversion/change of heart and thus went to heaven, even though that is NOT what it actually says in Scripture.

This is what Jesus actually said to the repentant thief:-

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE.

Most people mistakenly believe that "heaven" and "paradise" are interchangeable terms for the same place, but that is clearly NOT the case.

Jesus also said the following:

John 3:13 And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

The above statement includes all that came before Jesus, and all that have come after Jesus, to the present day. It is a true statement from Adam and Eve in the Garden through to Judgment Day, which should end any religious superstitions that we are "good people" (and yet all of us are sinners/law-breakers, i.e. criminals, just like the thieves hanging on either side of Jesus) or that we are "saved" merely by believing in Jesus.

Before any of you have a knee-jerk reaction to this TRUTH, please consider the following facts, which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that heaven and paradise are TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.

Compare Luke 23:43 cited above with the following from John 20:17, which occurred 3 days and 3 nights AFTER Jesus promised the thief that they would be together THAT DAY (the day Jesus was crucified) IN PARADISE.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

To be perfectly clear, Father (God) art in heaven.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be Thy name.

So, very obviously, Jesus did NOT ascend to HEAVEN on the day of the crucifixion, nor did either of the thieves (even the repentant one). They did however go to PARADISE, where each of us go after our human lives to receive our life review (Latin root: para dice: "to be told").

If you have the courage to face this irrefutable truth, then perhaps you're ready to read The Way home or face The Fire by JAH, the title of which is self-explanatory.

Belief in Christ-Jesus, i.e. Christ, the Saviour, is NOT ENOUGH. And you cannot truly believe Christ-Jesus is The Way, The Truth and the Life and somehow not believe His Words above.

His Teachings and Life-Example MUST be life-altering and thus followed to the letter every single moment of every single day (WWJD?) out of genuine love for Father (God), for His Christ and for our fellow spirit-Beings/Souls (our "neighbours"), beginning with following His Example of ego/self-crucifixion DAILY (Luke 9:23). It is the ego ("self") that stands as the gate-keeper to the mind, to prevent the truth from reaching the real you: the spirit-Being/Soul inside.

My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. -- Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, chapter 2 verse 20.

Peace be upon all of you.
 
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Most people mistakenly believe that "heaven" and "paradise" are interchangeable terms for the same place, but that is clearly NOT the case.
Heaven and paradise are not interchangeable. However, that doesnt mean the thief was not heaven-bound.

In Jesus' parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16, we see that there are two compartments in the underworld. Hell,where the rich man went (Lk16:23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom), and Abraham's bosom or paradise where Lazarus went (Lk16:22 ... the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom).

Verse 26 tells us that one cannot pass from one side to the other (between us there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us)

So when Jesus descended into paradise before his resurrection and ancension, the thief was with him there in paradise (or else Jesus would be a liar).

Depending on the interpretation, those that were saved are either in paradise awaiting the second coming, or they go directly to heaven. Those that were not saved, and old testament unrighteous are in hell awaiting the final judgment when they will be cast into the lake of fire.


John 3:13 And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.
What is the indication that He is not speaking of as of that moment when he said it?

Also, in 2Corinthians 2:4 the apostle Paul mentions being caught up to the third heaven (I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body I cannot tell: God knoweth) such as one caught up to the third heaven).

We also know from the Bible that Enoch (Gen5:24) and Elijah (2Kings2:11) were taken somewhere without first dying. For Enoch it says "God took him", but for Elijah it specifies he went up to heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire.

which should end any religious superstitions that we are "good people" (and yet all of us are sinners/law-breakers, i.e. criminals, just like the thieves hanging on either side of Jesus)
I definitely don't believe we are "good people". There is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
 

Lurking009

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The OP posits the mistaken belief that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was somehow "saved" in a last minute conversion/change of heart and thus went to heaven, even though that is NOT what it actually says in Scripture.

This is what Jesus actually said to the repentant thief:-

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE.

Most people mistakenly believe that "heaven" and "paradise" are interchangeable terms for the same place, but that is clearly NOT the case.

Jesus also said the following:

John 3:13 And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

The above statement includes all that came before Jesus, and all that have come after Jesus, to the present day. It is a true statement from Adam and Eve in the Garden through to Judgment Day, which should end any religious superstitions that we are "good people" (and yet all of us are sinners/law-breakers, i.e. criminals, just like the thieves hanging on either side of Jesus) or that we are "saved" merely by believing in Jesus.

Before any of you have a knee-jerk reaction to this TRUTH, please consider the following facts, which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that heaven and paradise are TWO DIFFERENT PLACES.

Compare Luke 23:43 cited above with the following from John 20:17, which occurred 3 days and 3 nights AFTER Jesus promised the thief that they would be together THAT DAY (the day Jesus was crucified) IN PARADISE.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

To be perfectly clear, Father (God) art in heaven.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be Thy name.

So, very obviously, Jesus did NOT ascend to HEAVEN on the day of the crucifixion, nor did either of the thieves (even the repentant one). They did however go to PARADISE, where each of us go after our human lives to receive our life review (Latin root: para dice: "to be told").

If you have the courage to face this irrefutable truth, then perhaps you're ready to read The Way home or face The Fire by JAH, the title of which is self-explanatory.
> Just a few additional passages in addition to what @ToxicFemininitySucks posted. As mentioned, Jesus descended to Paradise in Hades to release the OT faithful and bring them into heaven with Him:


Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. 



> That’s exactly why He made the statement He did to the thief on the cross. Those in Paradise ascended to heaven with Christ. Other references to what was at that time the coming promise of Jesus and heaven:

1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord…’ “

Heb 11:13 All these people [descendants of Abraham] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. 




Heb 11:37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated – 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only with us would they be made perfect.
 
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Lurking009

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Belief in Christ-Jesus, i.e. Christ, the Saviour, is NOT ENOUGH. And you cannot truly believe Christ-Jesus is The Way, The Truth and the Life and somehow not believe His Words above.

His Teachings and Life-Example MUST be life-altering and thus followed to the letter every single moment of every single day (WWJD?) out of genuine love for Father (God), for His Christ and for our fellow spirit-Beings/Souls (our "neighbours"), beginning with following His Example of ego/self-crucifixion DAILY (Luke 9:23). It is the ego ("self") that stands as the gate-keeper to the mind, to prevent the truth from reaching the real you: the spirit-Being/Soul inside.

Jn 6:28 Then they [the disciples] asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.”

> Being brought to repentance and faith IS a life-altering work of God, whether a person lives as a Christian for years or just a few days. That's the grace of Jesus Christ.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


John 1:12 Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become the children of God – 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because He has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”


Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
 
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A Freeman

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Heaven and paradise are not interchangeable. However, that doesnt mean the thief was not heaven-bound.
By itself it's understood how someone might mistakenly believe that. However, In conjunction with John 3:13 and John 20:17, there is no question that's exactly what we are being told (that the thief was NOT heaven-bound). No one except for Christ, Who was sent from heaven, has ascended to heaven. The only thing that convinces people otherwise is their egos (which we are supposed to be learning to crucify DAILY).

In Jesus' parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus in Luke 16, we see that there are two compartments in the underworld. Hell,where the rich man went (Lk16:23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom), and Abraham's bosom or paradise where Lazarus went (Lk16:22 ... the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom).
It is a PARABLE. Christ shared it to make the spiritual point that those who are spiritually deaf and blind will NEVER be convinced of (i.e. "see") the truth regardless of how many painstaking measures Father (God). Father has sent all of the Prophets, and finally His Christ in the body of Jesus, AND RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD, and people STILL people don't get it.

Hell is not some "underworld" with various compartments for the really bad, average bad or not so bad.

THIS IS HELL (planet Earth), and we've been here for thousands of years, repeating the same insanity over and over and expecting different results.

We have been told repeatedly throughout Scripture that this is hell, not in parable form but directly. We are even told in Christ's Revelation to John that we were cast here TO THE EARTH with Lucifer/Satan/the devil (Rev. 12:7-9), and yet people are STILL in denial about it. That's why people make up fanciful stories about "the underworld" (which the entire Earth really is), and about demons, etc. (we are the demons -- just think of all of the evil we do to one another), so we don't have to face the reality that we were banished from heaven to this maximum security prison reform school for the criminally insane, to either be rehabilitated or face final sentence for our continued refusal/rebellion.

How else would anyone explain why the entire world is filled with SINNERS (law-breakers/criminals - 1 John 3:4), where there is not a single one that is righteous; no, not even one?

The flames are reserved for the Last Day, when >99.99% of the Earth's population goes into The Fire, exactly as we've been repeatedly warned for thousands of years.

Verse 26 tells us that one cannot pass from one side to the other (between us there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us)
Understood. The "dead" cannot pass over to the side of the living any more than the living can pass over to the side of the "dead" (Matt. 8:22).

So when Jesus descended into paradise before his resurrection and ancension, the thief was with him there in paradise (or else Jesus would be a liar).
Agreed, although it wasn't necessarily a "descent". Paradise has many other names, e.g. the Astral Plane/Plain. It's where we are taken (when freed from the human body at the end of a human lifetime) to be given our life-review, of what we did that was good and bad during the previous human lifetime we just completed.

Christ and the Souls (Spirit-Beings) of both thieves and everyone else who died that day were there, in paradise, that day.

Depending on the interpretation, those that were saved are either in paradise awaiting the second coming, or they go directly to heaven. Those that were not saved, and old testament unrighteous are in hell awaiting the final judgment when they will be cast into the lake of fire.
The key words being "depending on the interpretation", all of which are wrong.

We will ALL stand judgment on Judgment Day, even Enoch, who was "translated" from his time directly to Judgment Day.

What is the indication that He is not speaking of as of that moment when he said it?
Is there any indication that truthful statement only applied before He spoke those words? If so, why would Jesus have not added a caveat, e.g. "until this day"...no man hath ascended...?

The reason He didn't say that should be self-evident; it was a universal statement of truth that wasn't time sensitive.

We are also told that there shall be a falling away before (2 Thess. 2:3-12), i.e. that every generation will be worse than the last, with the final generation (from 1948-onward) being so evil and unfaithful (Matt. 12:39-40) that Christ questioned whether He would find ANY faith on Earth during His Second Coming (Luke 18:8).

Also, in 2Corinthians 2:4 the apostle Paul mentions being caught up to the third heaven (I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body I cannot tell: God knoweth) such as one caught up to the third heaven).
Yes. And instead of seeing that verse as proof positive that we are NOT these human-animal bodies that we see in the mirror but, in fact, are LUMINOUS, SPIRITUAL BEINGS (SOULS), that are temporarily "locked" inside these humans, seems to have escaped everyone. Instead, humans speculate on what "the third heaven" may be.

We also know from the Bible that Enoch (Gen5:24) and Elijah (2Kings2:11) were taken somewhere without first dying. For Enoch it says "God took him",
Enoch was "translated" (Heb. 11:5), i.e. he didn't have to be sent back here again and again because his testimony (the life that Enoch led pleased Father).

but for Elijah it specifies he went up to heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire.
Which should let everyone know exactly who Elijah really is, knowing that John 3:13 is true and that both Elijah and Christ are prophesied to be here during these end-times (Jer. 30:9, Mal. 4:2, Mal. 4:5), just as Prince Michael is (Dan. 12:1).

I definitely don't believe we are "good people". There is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Agreed.
 

A Freeman

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Thank-you for the verses you've cited. However, if an honest look is taken at those verses, it should be self-evident that NONE of them properly translated and taken in the proper context support the erroneous viewpoints you're espousing.

They all, in fact, support what Jesus actually and specifically said regarding paradise and heaven, which are obviously two different places, and that the ONLY Way to heaven is to follow His Example of keeping God's Law at all times.

> Just a few additional passages in addition to what @ToxicFemininitySucks posted. As mentioned, Jesus descended to Paradise in Hades to release the OT faithful and bring them into heaven with Him:


Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men.” 9 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. 



> That’s exactly why He made the statement He did to the thief on the cross. Those in Paradise ascended to heaven with Christ.
You're trying to put words in the mouth of Jesus which He NEVER said, by choosing to cite and believe a very, very bad translation of the letters of Paul. Do you not realize the translators who do this are calling Jesus a liar, as are those choose to use such translations?

Not only did Christ-Jesus actually and specifically say the thief would be with Him in PARADISE (not heaven), but the verse you've cited actually says NOTHING about taking anyone with Him to heaven which, of course, would contradict what Jesus actually and specifically said in John 3:13 and in John 20:17, which you appear to be ignoring.

Please see the passages again, this time from the authorised King James version.

Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Captivity = enslavement. We are enslaved by sin.

John 8:25 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the prisoner of sin.

Leading captivity captive is to show people the ONLY Way to free themselves from sin is by believing and following His Example and to STOP SINNING (stop breaking The Law that God gave us). Christ cannot lead anyone who continues to be enslaved by sin/crime to heaven.

Can you really not see that verse 10 actually and specifically confirms John 3:13, that NO ONE except for Christ, who descended from heaven, has ever ascended to heaven, in fulfillment of the Scriptures (e.g. Ps. 53:1-3, Rom. 3:10-12)?

Other references to what was at that time the coming promise of Jesus and heaven:

1Pet 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Do you see how your version deceitfully truncates verse 20 to intentionally omit how few were actually saved?

THESE DAYS ARE JUST LIKE THE DAYS OF NOAH.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord…’ “
Acts 2:29-34 KJV
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore BEING A PROPHET, and knowing that GOD HAD SWORN WITH AN OATH TO HIM, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, THAT HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

How can people today consider themselves to be better than David, whom God made a prophet, king of Israel, and a promise that David would NEVER lack a descendant of his to sit on the throne in Israel? Arrogance perhaps?

Heb 11:13 All these people [descendants of Abraham] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. 



Heb 11:37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated – 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 10:15-18 KJV
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin*.

Sin is breaking The Law that God gave us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free (1 John 3:4-10).

Jn 6:28 Then they [the disciples] asked Him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.”

> Being brought to repentance and faith IS a life-altering work of God, whether a person lives as a Christian for years or just a few days. That's the grace of Jesus Christ.
And anyone who is genuinely brought to repentance is no longer in open rebellion against God and His Law. One CANNOT truly believe Jesus and continue to disregard His Example and continue to do the opposite of what He COMMANDS us to do.

Matthew 7:16-20
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Why then to people today, knowing from Scripture that each generation will become MORE evil than the previous one, actually believe they are better than God's Prophets or even than Christ's Disciples, NONE of which are in heaven according to Christ?

The reason it's so important for "Christians" to believe in the LIE that the thief on the cross next to Jesus supposedly went to heaven -- even when Jesus did NOT ever say that -- is so they can continue to mistakenly believe they can live an entire human lifetime in sin and that, upon their deathbed, they can be "converted" and "saved".

It simply doesn't work like that, as we are repeatedly told throughout Scripture, which is why, on Judgment Day, every single one of us will be judged ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS to determine if we actually believed and followed Christ's True Teachings and Example.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:12-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their WORKS.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith without works is DEAD, being alone – see James 2:17-25). DO GOOD WORKS (not evil/sinful works). We will all be judged according to our works (Matt. 16:27).

John 1:12 Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become the children of God – 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
John 1:12 KJV
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (see John 3:3-7).

John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because He has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:17-21 KJV
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
TRUE REPENTANCE = STOP SINNING/BREAKING GOD'S LAW. How can anyone receive the gift of the Holy Spirit while continuing to do evil?

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?
6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Wickedness? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
6:16 And what agreement hath The Temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the Living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My [adopted] sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

John 14:21-24
14:21 He that hath my COMMANDments, and KEEPETH them, HE it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Jude saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will obey my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not obeyeth not my sayings: and the Truth which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:14
10:14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Paul, in this same letter to the Romans told us that he himself was living by The Law of God, which is Holy, Just and Good, and which he was establishing everywhere he went, because only DOERS of The Law shall be justified.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God; but with the flesh (human) the law of sin.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore The Law [is] holy, and the Commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void The Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish The Law.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of The Law [are] just before God, but the DOERS of The Law (The Torah) shall be justified.
 
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We have been told repeatedly throughout Scripture that this is hell, not in parable form but directly. We are even told in Christ's Revelation to John that we were cast here TO THE EARTH with Lucifer/Satan/the devil (Rev. 12:7-9), and yet people are STILL in denial about it.
Rev 12:9 says that the great dragon, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan which deceiveth the whole world, he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Humans are not angels.
Heb2:6,7 but one in a certain place testified saying, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man that thou visitest him? thou made him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.
Psalm 8:5 says literally the same thing.

Which verses in scripture say this is hell?

How else would anyone explain why the entire world is filled with SINNERS (law-breakers/criminals - 1 John 3:4), where there is not a single one that is righteous; no, not even one?
Because we are fallen, in the image of Adam. Gen 5:1 says "in the day God created man, in the likeness of God made he him". But in Gen5:3 it says "and Adam lived 130 years and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth".

And instead of seeing that verse as proof positive that we are NOT these human-animal bodies that we see in the mirror but, in fact, are LUMINOUS, SPIRITUAL BEINGS (SOULS), that are temporarily "locked" inside these humans, seems to have escaped everyone.
But why would anyone see it that way? The Bible speaks of a bodily resurrection with glorified bodies.
Phi3:21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body.

Where does it say that we are spirit souls trapped in human-animal bodies?
1Cor15:39 all flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts...

The Sadducees said there is no resurrection, Matt22:23. Is this what you are saying?

Enoch was "translated" (Heb. 11:5), i.e. he didn't have to be sent back here again and again because his testimony (the life that Enoch led pleased Father).
Heb9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Which verses teach reincarnation?

Which should let everyone know exactly who Elijah really is, knowing that John 3:13 is true and that both Elijah and Christ are prophesied to be here during these end-times (Jer. 30:9, Mal. 4:2, Mal. 4:5), just as Prince Michael is (Dan. 12:1).
Mal4:5 behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Luke 1:17, regarding John the Baptist, "and he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Before the first coming
Rev 11:3-12 the two witnesses, one of which is Elijah, before the second coming.

Dan12:1 and at that time shall Michael stand up... and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was...
Rev12:7, 13 and there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon... and when the dragon saw he was cast down into the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Both passages refer to the devil being cast down by Michael, which gets the final 3.5 years of the end times going. (A time (1yr), times (2 yrs), and half a time (6 months) from Rev12:14)

Jer30:9 but they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, who I will raise up unto them.
What does this verse refer to in the context of Elijah having been taken to heaven?

The reason it's so important for "Christians" to believe in the LIE that the thief on the cross next to Jesus supposedly went to heaven -- even when Jesus did NOT ever say that -- is so they can continue to mistakenly believe they can live an entire human lifetime in sin and that, upon their deathbed, they can be "converted" and "saved".
This is not true for all Christians. To live a lifetime in willful sin while claiming to be a Christian destroys our testimony and our fellowship with the Lord.
 

A Freeman

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Good Sabbath day and good wishes.

Thank-you for your reply. Please see more below in response.

Rev 12:9 says that the great dragon, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan which deceiveth the whole world, he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Humans are not angels.
Agreed. A human+Being is a human incarnated by a spiritual-Being/Soul/angel. We have been imprisoned here in hell/Earth, each of us inside of our own, individual prison cells (the human body) and collectively held on this prison planet (Earth/hell). The purpose of this prison reform school is to teach us how to be good (Gen. 1:26). The human bodies facilitate that process, because they can feel pain and be punished when they think, say or do evil, to encourage us (the spirit-Beings/Souls/Angels inside) to learn to be good.

The reason we were sent/banished here is because of the evil we did, joining Lucifer/Satan in his coup attempt to fight against God, Michael and Michael's angels, i.e. the other two-thirds of heaven.

Heb2:6,7 but one in a certain place testified saying, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man that thou visitest him? thou made him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands.
Psalm 8:5 says literally the same thing.
What do you think a "Soul" is please other than an immortal spiritual-Being that only God can kill, aka an "angel" or a "god"?

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, Who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the Prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [His] Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
1:3 Who being the brightness of [His] glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by The Word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of His Majesty on high;
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see The Saviour, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death*, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

*Christ, the IMMORTAL Spirit-Being, was made flesh (John 1:14), i.e. INCARNATED inside the human body named Jesus, born to the virgin Mary. Christ obviously was made so much better than the rest of the angels (He was the first/beginning of God's Creation), and yet He was temporarily made a little lower than the angels when subjected to human limitations (incarnated inside a human, to form the human+Being we refer to as Jesus+Christ).

His suffering was in part to teach us that WE ARE NOT THE HUMAN WE SEE IN THE MIRROR, so that we could overcome our ILLOGICAL FEAR of the death of the human body, when the Soul/Spiritual-Being/Angel is literally freed from the confines of human limitations, and taken up to Paradise, to receive its "life-review".

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

How can one be reborn as their true, spiritual self -- as we've been told we MUST do to be able to see and hear spiritually (John 3:3-7) -- if they don't even know who or what they really are? Do you really believe you are nothing more than a human animal? You are a divine spiritual-Being that God -- Who is also a Spiritual-Being (John 4:24)-- created in/through Christ to do good works.

John 10:34-36
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82
82:1 <A Psalm of Asaph.> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods.
82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? The rock.
82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.
82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.
82:7 But ye (your Beings) shall die like men (humans), and fall like one of the princes.
82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations.

THE REAL YOU IS A SPIRITUAL-BEING (aka Soul/Angel/god), TEMPORARILY INCARNATED INSIDE OF A HUMAN BODY.
 

A Freeman

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Which verses in scripture say this is hell?
It's truly a testament to how spiritually blind people can actually be for someone to even question that this place (planet Earth) is hell.

We live in a world where people lie, cheat and steal on a daily basis; where women are raped, children molested; where the orphan and the widow are mistreated and abused; where theft has been “legalized” in the form of taxes and license fees, and where murder has been “legalized” in the form of war.

Just look at what is going on in the world right now, with sexual depravity not just being tolerated, or even praised, but instead being unlawfully mandated by unlawful legislation. The insanity is so acute we no longer seem to know that there are only two genders: male and female (Gen. 1:27), or that ALL man-made chemicals/pharmaceuticals are actually poisons (Gal. 5:19-21). People are actually lining up to be lethally injected out of nothing more than fear for their pathetic human existence (Matt. 10:28).

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/covid-19-western-medicine-pharmacy-witchcraft-in-scripture.8223/

How dark does it need to get before people can see where we are?

Nowhere else, in the entire universe, is there such a place. How obvious does it need to be that the Earth is a maximum-security prison reform school for the criminally insane, aka hell? Did Christ not tell us that Lucifer/Satan/the devil is the temporarily ruler of this world, aka “the prince of this world” (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)?

Listed below are a few of the countless references to this planet (Earth) being hell:-

Job 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 16:10 FOR THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL (planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, Thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou [art there].

Proverbs 15:24 The Way of Life [is] above to the wise (Matt. 6:33), that he may depart from hell beneath.

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:12-15
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning (Star)! [How] art thou cut down to the earth, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the North:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like (take the Place of) The Most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezekiel 31:15-17
31:15 Thus saith the Lord "I AM"; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall (Lucifer/Satan/the red dragon/serpent/devil, etc.), when I CAST HIM DOWN TO HELL with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Compare with:-

Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT TO THE EARTH, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).

Acts 2:27-28
2:27 Because THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.
2:28 Thou hast made known to me The Ways of Life; Thou shalt make me full of joy with Thy countenance.
2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2:30 Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
2:31 He seeing this before spoke of the Resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Of course the fact that hell (planet Earth) serves as a prison reform school is also something we are repeatedly told throughout Scripture.

Enoch 18:15 Then the angel said: This place, until the consummation of heaven and Earth will be the PRISON for the stars, and the host of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).

Psalms 69:33 For the "I AM" heareth the poor, and despiseth not His prisoners (all of the people on this prison planet).

Psalms 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner (everyone on this prison planet); to free (only) those (who repent) that He has sentenced to death (every sinner);

Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise Thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for Thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Psalms 146:7 Which executeth Judgment for the oppressed: Which giveth food to the hungry. The "I AM" looseth the prisoners:

Ecclesiastes 4:14 For in this prison (planet earth) he cometh to reign; because of this [he that is] born in his kingdom becometh poor.

Isaiah 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 42:7 TO OPEN BLIND EYES, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS FROM THIS PRISON [planet], [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord "I AM" [is] upon me; because the "I AM" hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Lamentations 3:31-34
3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
3:32 But though He cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.
3:33 For He doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
3:34 To crush under His feet all the prisoners of the earth,

Even in the letters of Paul, there are references to being prisoners of Christ. Why prisoners of Christ instead of just His servants or His students?

Romans 16:7 Salute Andrew and John, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou a sharer of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,

Philemon 1:9 Yet for love's sake I rather beseech [thee], being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.


The entire Bible is a testimony of this being hell, where people do NOT obey God to our own detriment (i.e. we are all unrighteous sinners/law-breakers/criminals). How obvious does it need to be for people to see?

As previously shared, the flames (hell-FIRE, aka The Fire) are reserved for the Last Day, when we are all due to be judged according to our works (whether they be good or evil). Hopefully this provides an incentive for all of us to change our evil ways and learn how to be good, so that we can go HOME (to heaven).
 
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A Freeman

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Because we are fallen, in the image of Adam. Gen 5:1 says "in the day God created man, in the likeness of God made he him". But in Gen5:3 it says "and Adam lived 130 years and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth".
Have you not considered the fact that we all "fell" (were sent/banished) to the Earth from our home (heaven) BEFORE the fall in the Garden of Eden? If heaven isn't our home, why would we want to go there? Particularly if it's so great to be human and to live on a planet where deceit is universal, and there is a constant threat of violence and war?

Do you really believe God is unjust, and would punish all of us for what Adam and Eve did? Adam was among the first generation of spiritual-Beings incarnated into human animal bodies. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because they listened to and obeyed Lucifer/Satan/the devil/serpent instead of God. We have all been doing the same ever since, including believing the LIE that "we are only human after all". The same lie the serpent told Eve.

A Freeman said:
And instead of seeing that verse as proof positive that we are NOT these human-animal bodies that we see in the mirror but, in fact, are LUMINOUS, SPIRITUAL BEINGS (SOULS), that are temporarily "locked" inside these humans, seems to have escaped everyone.

But why would anyone see it that way? The Bible speaks of a bodily resurrection with glorified bodies.
Phi3:21 who shall change our vile [terrestrial, human*] body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious [celestial, spiritual*] body.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

*spiritual/scriptural descriptions included in Philippians 3:21 that you cited above inside [ ].

Where does it say that we are spirit souls trapped in human-animal bodies?
1Cor15:39 all flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts...
! Corinthians 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies (extra-terrestrial spirit-Beings), and bodies terrestrial (humans): but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

Christ, the extraterrestrial Spirit-Being said this through the mouth of Jesus: I AM NOT FROM THIS WORLD (John 8:23 KJV), and yet Jesus (the human) was born in Bethlehem in Judea, which definitely is of this world. Will ye not understand?

The Sadducees said there is no resurrection, Matt22:23. Is this what you are saying?
Of course not. Quite the opposite. The Sadducees were "YOLO" believers, like most "Christians" are today, who not only aren't born again from above, but actually repeat and defend the satanic lie that they are "only human after all".

Heb9:27 and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Hebrews 9:27-28
9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It should be self-evident that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Hebrews 9:27 to be referring to the death of the human body, as that would turn it into a lie.

Enoch was "translated" and thus didn't die even once. Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind/"chariot of fire" and likewise didn't die even once.

Further, all of the people that were raised from the dead (e.g. the widow of Zarephath's son, Lazarus, the ruler's daughter, and several others), all physically died twice.
 
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A Freeman

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Which verses teach reincarnation?
Please see:
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/reincarnation-is-an-irrefutable-fact.6934/

and the list below, which isn't meant to be a comprehensive list, but should hopefully get you started:

Genesis 2:7,
Genesis 5:23-24, Hebrews 11:5
Genesis 6:3
, 6:11-17, 7:21-22
Genesis 14:18-20
, John 8:47-49 (KJV 8:56-58)
Genesis 49:1, 49:10
Exodus 20:5
Deuteronomy 4:30
Deuteronomy 31:16
Deuteronomy 31:29
Deuteronomy 32:29
Enoch 6:11-12
Enoch 10:10
, 23
Enoch 12:1-2
Enoch 15:3-7
Enoch 22:5-7
Enoch 39:11-12
Enoch 49:1
Enoch 60:14
, Eph. 5:14
Enoch 70:13
Enoch 90:1
Enoch 91:1-3
Enoch 99:3
2 Samuel 7:12
1 Kings 1:21
, 2:10
2 Kings 8:24
, 10:35, 13:9, 13:13, 14:16, 14:22, 14:29
2 Kings 15:7
, 15:22, 15:38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6
2 Chronicles 9:31
, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2
2 Chronicles 26:23
, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20
Job 1:21
Job 14:12-14
Job 34:14-15
Psalm 16:10
Psalm 22:29
Psalm 23
Psalm 30:3
Psalm 33:18-20
Psalm 49:14-15
Psalm 56:13
Psalm 58:3
Psalm 82:6-7
Psalm 90:1-10
Psalm 102:20-26
Psalm 103:20
Psalm 104:4
Psalm 107:24-26
Psalm 111:9-10
Psalm 116:7-9
Psalm 118:17
Psalm 119:175-176
Psalm 136:23
Psalm 142:7
Psalm 143:3-8
Jeremiah 1:5
Daniel 12:13
Matthew 16:24-28
Matthew 17:10-13
Matthew 19:28
Matthew 22:29-32
Matthew 24:3
, 32-34
Mark 12:24-27
Luke 8:52-55
Luke 9:23-27
Luke 20:34-38
Luke 20:41-44
John 1:14-15
John 3:3-13
John 8:42-43
John 9:1-2
; 5:14
John 11:11-44
John 17:5
John 17:14-17
John 18:36-37
Thomas 3:5-6
Thomas 6:1
Thomas 6:8-10
Thomas 8:4
Thomas 8:8-10
Thomas 13:16
Thomas 16:1-2
James 2:26
Galatians 6:7
2 Corinthians 5:6-10
2 Corinthians 12:2-5
Hebrews 9:27-28
Revelation 1:5
Revelation 2:11
, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8
Revelation 2:17
, 3:12, 19:12


A few from the very beginning of the Bible (The Law), just in case you decide not to study the above list:-

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell YOU [that] which shall befall YOU in THE LAST DAYS.

How could Jacob's sons, who lived almost 4000 years ago have anything befall them during these current end-times? REINCARNATION is the ONLY answer. Similarly:-

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I (Moses) know that after my death YE will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from The Way which I have commanded YOU; and evil will befall YOU in THE LATTER DAYS; because ye will do evil in the sight of the "I AM", to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

And from the Gospel:
Christ clearly taught His disciples about reincarnation, and it appears they understood the lesson.

Matthew 17:10-13
17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the lawyers that Elias must first come?
17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist (Elias - Elisha NOT Elijah).

These verses explain that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elisha/Elias, as evidenced by the mantle being given to Elisha by Elijah at the Jordan, and then being returned to Elijah (Christ – see John 3:13 and 2 kings 2:11) when Elias/Elisha (John the Baptist) baptized Christ in the Jordan (II Kings 2:13-14, Matt. 3:16-17).

Sidenote: See John 1:21 below, where John the Baptist clearly states he is NOT Elijah.

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Further confirmation of Christ teaching reincarnation may be found in the following verses, previously quoted.

John 9:1-3
9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth. (re-incarnation)
9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did SIN, THIS MAN, or his parents, that he was BORN blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God (the perfect reward and punishment system – Gal. 6:7) should be made manifest in him.
The disciples knew full well we are punished for sinning (breaking The Law – I John 3:4), to encourage us to correct our errant behavior and keep The Law, which in turn brings us closer to God (Hosea 5:15). That's why they asked “who did sin?” about a man BORN blind.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the Temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a WORSE thing come unto thee.

The ONLY reason God would allow someone to be born (incarnated) into a blind human body is if their sinsfrom their previous incarnation—warranted such a punishment. A blind person has to depend on others, which teaches humility. Blindness also forces one to rely more heavily on the real, unseen world, and learn to use their spiritual eyesight. So it serves as a lesson and a test as well as a punishment.

How else, other than through reincarnation, can the disparities in physical ailments, ethnic backgrounds, living conditions, financial means, and exposure to vastly different levels of love, care, resources and understanding be explained? Some humans die as infants or children, while others live 100 years. There are two (and only two) human genders which are likewise NOT EQUAL (Gen. 3:16, I Cor. 11:3, 7-9, I Cor. 14:34-35, Eph. 5:22-29, I Tim. 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, I Peter 3:1-6). So how are all of these differences explained if we only live one human life? Is God not just and fair in ALL things?

To think that God—Who is immortal, lives in eternity, is merciful and long-suffering that all might come to repentance—only gives a miserly seventy years (or less) out of the whole of eternity to get it right, or burn (in The Fire – the second death), is not only totally illogical and an insult to God, but further proof of not learning what NEEDS to be learned: the TRUTH about reincarnation. How can giving us seventy years (or less) out of eternity be considered long-suffering? Six thousand years is what God considers long-suffering.

For doubters, please see the direct Biblical reference to reincarnation below.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the Throne of his glory,

The "regeneration" is Christ's SECOND Coming, in a new human body (from Joseph-Ephraim -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12), followed immediately thereafter with the 1000 year reign of Christ on the new Earth (Rev. 21:1).
 
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Terminator Resistance

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Please see:
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/reincarnation-is-an-irrefutable-fact.6934/

and the list below, which isn't meant to be a comprehensive list, but should hopefully get you started:

Genesis 2:7,
Genesis 5:23-24, Hebrews 11:5
Genesis 6:3
, 6:11-17, 7:21-22
Genesis 14:18-20
, John 8:47-49 (KJV 8:56-58)
Genesis 49:1, 49:10
Exodus 20:5
Deuteronomy 4:30
Deuteronomy 31:16
Deuteronomy 31:29
Deuteronomy 32:29
Enoch 6:11-12
Enoch 10:10
, 23
Enoch 12:1-2
Enoch 15:3-7
Enoch 22:5-7
Enoch 39:11-12
Enoch 49:1
Enoch 60:14
, Eph. 5:14
Enoch 70:13
Enoch 90:1
Enoch 91:1-3
Enoch 99:3
2 Samuel 7:12
1 Kings 1:21
, 2:10
2 Kings 8:24
, 10:35, 13:9, 13:13, 14:16, 14:22, 14:29
2 Kings 15:7
, 15:22, 15:38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6
2 Chronicles 9:31
, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2
2 Chronicles 26:23
, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20
Job 1:21
Job 14:12-14
Job 34:14-15
Psalm 16:10
Psalm 22:29
Psalm 23
Psalm 30:3
Psalm 33:18-20
Psalm 49:14-15
Psalm 56:13
Psalm 58:3
Psalm 82:6-7
Psalm 90:1-10
Psalm 102:20-26
Psalm 103:20
Psalm 104:4
Psalm 107:24-26
Psalm 111:9-10
Psalm 116:7-9
Psalm 118:17
Psalm 119:175-176
Psalm 136:23
Psalm 142:7
Psalm 143:3-8
Jeremiah 1:5
Daniel 12:13
Matthew 16:24-28
Matthew 17:10-13
Matthew 19:28
Matthew 22:29-32
Matthew 24:3
, 32-34
Mark 12:24-27
Luke 8:52-55
Luke 9:23-27
Luke 20:34-38
Luke 20:41-44
John 1:14-15
John 3:3-13
John 8:42-43
John 9:1-2
; 5:14
John 11:11-44
John 17:5
John 17:14-17
John 18:36-37
Thomas 3:5-6
Thomas 6:1
Thomas 6:8-10
Thomas 8:4
Thomas 8:8-10
Thomas 13:16
Thomas 16:1-2
James 2:26
Galatians 6:7
2 Corinthians 5:6-10
2 Corinthians 12:2-5
Hebrews 9:27-28
Revelation 1:5
Revelation 2:11
, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8
Revelation 2:17
, 3:12, 19:12


A few from the very beginning of the Bible (The Law), just in case you decide not to study the above list:-

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell YOU [that] which shall befall YOU in THE LAST DAYS.

How could Jacob's sons, who lived almost 4000 years ago have anything befall them during these current end-times? REINCARNATION is the ONLY answer. Similarly:-

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I (Moses) know that after my death YE will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from The Way which I have commanded YOU; and evil will befall YOU in THE LATTER DAYS; because ye will do evil in the sight of the "I AM", to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Christ clearly taught His disciples about reincarnation, and it appears they understood the lesson.

Matthew 17:10-13
17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the lawyers that Elias must first come?
17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist (Elias - Elisha NOT Elijah).

These verses explain that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elisha/Elias, as evidenced by the mantle being given to Elisha by Elijah at the Jordan, and then being returned to Elijah (Christ – see John 3:13 and 2 kings 2:11) when Elias/Elisha (John the Baptist) baptized Christ in the Jordan (II Kings 2:13-14, Matt. 3:16-17).

Sidenote: See John 1:21 below, where John the Baptist clearly states he is NOT Elijah.

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Further confirmation of Christ teaching reincarnation may be found in the following verses, previously quoted.

John 9:1-3
9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth. (re-incarnation)
9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did SIN, THIS MAN, or his parents, that he was BORN blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God (the perfect reward and punishment system – Gal. 6:7) should be made manifest in him.
The disciples knew full well we are punished for sinning (breaking The Law – I John 3:4), to encourage us to correct our errant behavior and keep The Law, which in turn brings us closer to God (Hosea 5:15). That's why they asked “who did sin?” about a man BORN blind.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the Temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a WORSE thing come unto thee.

The ONLY reason God would allow someone to be born (incarnated) into a blind human body is if their sinsfrom their previous incarnation—warranted such a punishment. A blind person has to depend on others, which teaches humility. Blindness also forces one to rely more heavily on the real, unseen world, and learn to use their spiritual eyesight. So it serves as a lesson and a test as well as a punishment.

How else, other than through reincarnation, can the disparities in physical ailments, ethnic backgrounds, living conditions, financial means, and exposure to vastly different levels of love, care, resources and understanding be explained? Some humans die as infants or children, while others live 100 years. There are two (and only two) human genders which are likewise NOT EQUAL (Gen. 3:16, I Cor. 11:3, 7-9, I Cor. 14:34-35, Eph. 5:22-29, I Tim. 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, I Peter 3:1-6). So how are all of these differences explained if we only live one human life? Is God not just and fair in ALL things?

To think that God—Who is immortal, lives in eternity, is merciful and long-suffering that all might come to repentance—only gives a miserly seventy years (or less) out of the whole of eternity to get it right, or burn (in The Fire – the second death), is not only totally illogical and an insult to God, but further proof of not learning what NEEDS to be learned: the TRUTH about reincarnation. How can giving us seventy years (or less) out of eternity be considered long-suffering? Six thousand years is what God considers long-suffering.

For doubters, please see the direct Biblical reference to reincarnation below.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the Throne of his glory,

The "regeneration" is Christ's SECOND Coming, in a new human body (from Joseph-Ephraim -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12).
Thanks for the verses I had problems retrieving them from memory, but I knew they were in the Bible.
 

A Freeman

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Mal4:5 behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
The great and dreadful day of the Lord is JUDGMENT DAY.

So coming before that would be coming during the end-times, aka "the time of Jacob's trouble", the same as Christ/Prince Michael. This serves as yet another clue as to what Christ's NEW NAME will be during His Second Coming.

Luke 1:17, regarding John the Baptist, "and he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah) to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Before the first coming
Elias is ELISHA (Elijah's apprentice); NOT Elijah.

Rev 11:3-12 the two witnesses, one of which is Elijah, before the second coming.
The Two Witnesses are identified in Scripture as the two sons of Joseph -- Ephraim (the British) and Manasseh (the Anglo-Saxon Americans) -- who have translated the Bible into the various languages, published and distributed the Bible around the world (see Gen. 48:16-19, Isa. 43:10-12). Please read the descriptions in Revelation 11 again, with that in mind. Those descriptions are speaking of two nations, NOT two individuals, and they describe exactly what the U.K. and U.S. have done to the other nations of the world.

They have delivered the Word of God to everyone else, but they have NOT demonstrated it with their actions, as they/we promised to do.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/twelve-tribes-of-israel-info-research-thread.5480/post-284935

Dan12:1 and at that time shall Michael stand up... and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was...
Rev12:7, 13 and there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon... and when the dragon saw he was cast down into the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Both passages refer to the devil being cast down by Michael, which gets the final 3.5 years of the end times going. (A time (1yr), times (2 yrs), and half a time (6 months) from Rev12:14)
Those passages are actually separated by approxumately 6000 years. The war that WAS in heaven was 6000 years ago, which resulted in Lucifer and his angels (us) being cast to the Earth.

The reference in Daniel is to the end-times that we are currently experiencing.

And prophetically, a "time" in Scripture is 12 "months" of 30 "days" (360 years), so that a time (360 x 1), times ( 360 x 2) and a half (180 years) is actually 1260 years (each day for a year - Numbers 14:34).

Jer30:9 but they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, who I will raise up unto them.
What does this verse refer to in the context of Elijah having been taken to heaven?
It is referring to Christ, during His Second Coming, when Father (God) shall give Him (Christ) the Davidic Throne of Israel. The reason most are confused by the verse is because the Hebrew term "dawid" (David) is left untranslated into English. It's meaning is "Well-Beloved" and is prophecy referring to Christ (Matt. 3:17). It cannot possibly be referring to king David, who had already been dead for several hundred years before this was written.

Malachi 4:2 is also prophecy referring to Christ during His Second Coming, exactly as He promised His Disciples in Matthew 24.

Jeremiah 30:9 But they shall serve the "I AM" their God, and My Well-Beloved their king, whom I will raise up unto them (Ezek. 21:26-27, Luke 1:32).

This is not true for all Christians. To live a lifetime in willful sin while claiming to be a Christian destroys our testimony and our fellowship with the Lord.
How many "Christians" keep The Law that God gave us, as Christ COMMANDS? How many "Christians" are actively looking for Christ to be here NOW, to gather the "Elect" as He has promised to do?
 
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Thank you for the replies . I will study the verses provided. For now, some thoughts and additional questions

The reason we were sent/banished here is because of the evil we did, joining Lucifer/Satan in his coup attempt to fight against God, Michael and Michael's angels, i.e. the other two-thirds of heaven.
Accoding to what you are saying, how does this fit in with the accepted version of the fall, Adam and Eve's disobediece? Are you saying that Adam and Eve did what they did because they were already fallen due to the past rebellion of Satan? Or that if Satan had not already fallen there would have been no serpent/Satan to tempt them?

Do you really believe you are nothing more than a human animal?
No. Humans were in the image of God before the fall, animals were not.

It's truly a testament to how spiritually blind people can actually be for someone to even question that this place (planet Earth) is hell.

We live in a world where people lie, cheat and steal on a daily basis; where women are raped, children molested; where the orphan and the widow are mistreated and abused; where theft has been “legalized” in the form of taxes and license fees, and where murder has been “legalized” in the form of war.

Just look at what is going on in the world right now, with sexual depravity not just being tolerated, or even praised, but instead being unlawfully mandated by unlawful legislation. The insanity is so acute we no longer seem to know that there are only two genders: male and female (Gen. 1:27), or that ALL man-made chemicals/pharmaceuticals are actually poisons (Gal. 5:19-21). People are actually lining up to be lethally injected out of nothing more than fear for their pathetic human existence (Matt. 10:28).
No, believe me I HAVE questioned it. Many of the things you say are things I've heard and thought before. Before becoming a Christian I believed many of those things like reincarnation and that we are in hell. I was in rebellion against God, the God of the Bible.

Also, this is probably more for a different thread, but not everyone lined up for the v@x out of fear for their lives. Some did it out of love, love for their families so they could keep their jobs and keep providing for them, so their kids would not be taken away by the state.



Enoch 18:15 Then the angel said: This place, until the consummation of heaven and Earth will be the PRISON for the stars, and the host of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9).
Book of Enoch is not part of the holy scriptures. If we accept Enoch as truth and inspired whats to stop us from taking all other pseudoapocrypha as inspired?


If heaven isn't our home, why would we want to go there? Particularly if it's so great to be human and to live on a planet where deceit is universal, and there is a constant threat of violence and war?
Doesn't the second question answer the first one? It's not so great. I'm not "attached" to being a human, I'm just humble to the fact that I'm not an angel.


Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because they listened to and obeyed Lucifer/Satan/the devil/serpent instead of God. We have all been doing the same ever since, including believing the LIE that "we are only human after all". The same lie the serpent told Eve.
The lie the serpent told Eve was "ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" Gen 3:4-5

How is this the same as telling her a lie that she is human?
He was lying to her that she could be as a god/God? Literally the opposite.


A few from the very beginning of the Bible (The Law), just in case you decide not to study the above list:-

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell YOU [that] which shall befall YOU in THE LAST DAYS.
How could Jacob's sons, who lived almost 4000 years ago have anything befall them during these current end-times? REINCARNATION is the ONLY answer.
I will study the verses you have provided.

But Gen 49:3-27 are prophetic verses that foretell future events for the different tribes of Israel , not the individual men. I can go into these fulfilled prophecies in detail in a later post (but you probably already know, as you seem very well read in scripture).


The two witnesses are identified in Scripture as the two sons of Joseph -- Ephraim (the British) and Manasseh (the Anglo-Saxon Americans) -- who have translated the Bible into the various languages, published and distributed the Bible around the world (see Gen. 48:16-19, Isa. 43:10-12). Please read the descriptions in Revelation 11 again, with that in mind. Those descriptions are speaking of two nations, NOT two individuals, and they describe exactly what the U.K. and U.S. have done to the other nations of the world.

They have delivered the Word of God to everyone else, but they have NOT demonstrated it with their actions, as they/we promised to do.
How do the two nations have dead bodies that lie in the street of the great city? How do the people not suffer the bodies of nations to be put in graves? How does the Spirit of God enter two nations so they stand on their feet? How do two nations ascend up to heaven in a cloud? Rev 11:8,9,11,12


How many "Christians" keep The Law that God gave us, as Christ COMMANDS? How many "Christians" are actively looking for Christ to be here NOW, to gather the "Elect" as He has promised to do?

You mean the Law written in the books of Exodus to Deuteronomy? Are you saying God doesn't want us to plant two seeds of the different kinds together, or wear clothing of wool mixed with linen? That we should celebrate all Jewish feasts? That we should offer sacrifice at the temple, which is impossible now anyway?

Or do you mean when Jesus Christ said to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself? Matt22:37,39; Lk 10:27
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Thank you for the replies . I will study the verses provided. For now, some thoughts and additional questions


Accoding to what you are saying, how does this fit in with the accepted version of the fall, Adam and Eve's disobediece? Are you saying that Adam and Eve did what they did because they were already fallen due to the past rebellion of Satan? Or that if Satan had not already fallen there would have been no serpent/Satan to tempt them?


No. Humans were in the image of God before the fall, animals were not.


No, believe me I HAVE questioned it. Many of the things you say are things I've heard and thought before. Before becoming a Christian I believed many of those things like reincarnation and that we are in hell. I was in rebellion against God, the God of the Bible.

Also, this is probably more for a different thread, but not everyone lined up for the v@x out of fear for their lives. Some did it out of love, love for their families so they could keep their jobs and keep providing for them, so their kids would not be taken away by the state.




Book of Enoch is not part of the holy scriptures. If we accept Enoch as truth and inspired whats to stop us from taking all other pseudoapocrypha as inspired?



Doesn't the second question answer the first one? It's not so great. I'm not "attached" to being a human, I'm just humble to the fact that I'm not an angel.



The lie the serpent told Eve was "ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and yes shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" Gen 3:4-5

How is this the same as telling her a lie that she is human?
He was lying to her that she could be as a god/God? Literally the opposite.



I will study the verses you have provided.

But Gen 49:3-27 are prophetic verses that foretell future events for the different tribes of Israel , not the individual men. I can go into these fulfilled prophecies in detail in a later post (but you probably already know, as you seem very well read in scripture).



How do the two nations have dead bodies that lie in the street of the great city? How do the people not suffer the bodies of nations to be put in graves? How does the Spirit of God enter two nations so they stand on their feet? How do two nations ascend up to heaven in a cloud? Rev 11:8,9,11,12


How many "Christians" keep The Law that God gave us, as Christ COMMANDS? How many "Christians" are actively looking for Christ to be here NOW, to gather the "Elect" as He has promised to do?

You mean the Law written in the books of Exodus to Deuteronomy? Are you saying God doesn't want us to plant two seeds of the different kinds together, or wear clothing of wool mixed with linen? That we should celebrate all Jewish feasts? That we should offer sacrifice at the temple, which is impossible now anyway?

Or do you mean when Jesus Christ said to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself? Matt22:37,39; Lk 10:27
btw - “Biblical reincarnation?

Hebrews 9

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

There is a reason why you don’t meet Christians who believe in reincarnation - the concept runs contrary to the message of the Bible and is simply a spiritual deception to give people the idea they will have another go at this life, thus removing the urgency to “choose life” while you can.
 

A Freeman

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Thank you for the replies . I will study the verses provided. For now, some thoughts and additional questions
You're welcome.

Accoding to what you are saying, how does this fit in with the accepted version of the fall, Adam and Eve's disobediece? Are you saying that Adam and Eve did what they did because they were already fallen due to the past rebellion of Satan? Or that if Satan had not already fallen there would have been no serpent/Satan to tempt them?
What part of what's been shared wasn't clear please? In heaven, we joined Lucifer/Satan in a coup attempt against God. We lost the war and were banished to the Earth, inside these human bodies, to learn how to be good.

God set up the Garden of Eden, where everything that was needed was provided, as long as we listened to and obeyed God ONLY. Adam was walking with God (listening and obeying) and learning only Good, from God..

When Eve listened to the Serpent, and disobeyed God, and then conned Adam into doing the same, they became confused, no longer able to discern what was good and what was evil, at which time they were banished from the Garden of Eden. And man has been working in confusion ever since, having forgotten his divine nature.

No. Humans were in the image of God before the fall, animals were not.
It is the spiritual-Beings INSIDE these human bodies that were made in the image of God, NOT the humans themselves.

God is NOT a human (John 4:24), nor could God EVER be a human, or the son of a human, exactly as God has said (Num. 23:19).

No, believe me I HAVE questioned it. Many of the things you say are things I've heard and thought before. Before becoming a Christian I believed many of those things like reincarnation and that we are in hell. I was in rebellion against God, the God of the Bible.
Those who do not believe in reincarnation and that this is hell (Earth) are among those still in open rebellion against God and His Word/Christ/Bible, since the Bible clearly teaches reincarnation and that this prison planet we call Earth is hell.

Also, this is probably more for a different thread, but not everyone lined up for the v@x out of fear for their lives. Some did it out of love, love for their families so they could keep their jobs and keep providing for them, so their kids would not be taken away by the state.
Fear and faith are polar opposites. God has repeatedly condemned pharmacy and the witch doctors who administer it in His Bible. One either believes (has faith in) God or they don't (i.e. they are living in fear and/or ignorance).

So in all your scenarios, it was fear of the beast system (not trusting in God) that drove all of the decisions, NOT "love"; e.g. fear of losing their job, fear of not being able to provide, fear of the children being taken away by the state, etc.. Faith is knowing that God will provide and protect as He's promised to do IF we are doing His Will. Sadly most prefer to do their own selfish will rather than Father's Will (Love).

Book of Enoch is not part of the holy scriptures.
According to whom? You?

According to God, Enoch was His very first Prophet. And if anyone reads and studies the Book of Enoch, they will see it is in perfect agreement with the rest of Scriptures and should never have been removed.

If we accept Enoch as truth and inspired whats to stop us from taking all other pseudoapocrypha as inspired?
Who determines what is "pseudoapocrypha"? As it says in the Book of Enoch, when all of God's Words are correctly translated and written, they will all be in perfect agreement. So God Himself has defined how to determine what is part of His Word and what isn't.

Doesn't the second question answer the first one?
Aren't you merely avoiding answering the first question by asking this?

It's not so great. I'm not "attached" to being a human, I'm just humble to the fact that I'm not an angel.
Is there any humility though in not being honest with yourself and choosing not to believe what we really are? How could anyone obey Christ's COMMAND to be reborn as our true, spiritual selves if they don't believe that they are spiritual Beings (angels/gods)?

And where is the humility in refusing to accept personal responsibility for one's own actions? Being an evil angel who rebelled against God certainly isn't something to be pleased about.

The lie the serpent told Eve was "ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and yes shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" Gen 3:4-5

How is this the same as telling her a lie that she is human?
Can you really not see that Satan conned Eve into believing she wasn't already a god/angel/spiritual-Being clothed in a human body by telling her that only when she disobeys God would she become a god/angel/spirit-Being?

When Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, it was her human eyes that were opened. She no longer saw herself as a spiritual-Being clothed in a human body (and thus not naked), but instead saw herself as the human, which was naked.

He was lying to her that she could be as a god/God? Literally the opposite.
The word "devil" means "liar", just as the word "Satan" means "the Opposer".

I will study the verses you have provided.
Good.

But Gen 49:3-27 are prophetic verses that foretell future events for the different tribes of Israel , not the individual men.
The prophetic verses can and do apply to both the individual spirit-Beings inside each of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel, as well as their descendants.

I can go into these fulfilled prophecies in detail in a later post (but you probably already know, as you seem very well read in scripture).
Thanks for the offer. Perhaps reviewing the following first would be beneficial:

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/twelve-tribes-of-israel-info-research-thread.5480/post-284935

How do the two nations have dead bodies that lie in the street of the great city? How do the people not suffer the bodies of nations to be put in graves? How does the Spirit of God enter two nations so they stand on their feet? How do two nations ascend up to heaven in a cloud? Rev 11:8,9,11,12
Please take the time to review what's already been shared, which answers all of these questions.

A Freeman said:
How many "Christians" keep The Law that God gave us, as Christ COMMANDS? How many "Christians" are actively looking for Christ to be here NOW, to gather the "Elect" as He has promised to do?

You mean the Law written in the books of Exodus to Deuteronomy?
Yes. The first five books of the Bible, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, which are collectively referred to as The Torah, i.e. The Law.

Are you saying God doesn't want us to plant two seeds of the different kinds together, or wear clothing of wool mixed with linen? That we should celebrate all Jewish feasts?
What does it say in The Law?

That we should offer sacrifice at the temple, which is impossible now anyway?
Animal sacrifice was replaced with "self"-sacrifice at the cross, as it states in Scripture (see Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:26-27, Gal. 2:20).

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] The Law of Commandments [contained] in Ordinances (circumcision); for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Or do you mean when Jesus Christ said to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself? Matt22:37,39; Lk 10:27
IF one truly obeys those two Commandments, then it's impossible to break any of the other Commandments, Statutes and Judgments found in The Law.
 
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A Freeman

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btw - “Biblical reincarnation?

Hebrews 9

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

There is a reason why you don’t meet Christians who believe in reincarnation - the concept runs contrary to the message of the Bible and is simply a spiritual deception to give people the idea they will have another go at this life, thus removing the urgency to “choose life” while you can.
Did you really not see this has already been addressed? Or are you simply ignoring it along with the other dozens and dozens of verses which prove reincarnation is taught throughout the Bible.

Please see the irrefutable proof below that the verse you've quoted cannot possibly be referring to human death, but instead is referring to the death of the "self".

Hebrews 9:27-28
9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It should be self-evident that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Hebrews 9:27 to be referring to the death of the human body, as that would turn it into a lie.

Enoch was "translated" and thus didn't die even once. Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind/"chariot of fire" and likewise didn't die even once.

Further, all of the people that were raised from the dead (e.g. the widow of Zarephath's son, Lazarus, the ruler's daughter, and several others), all physically died twice.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Did you really not see this has already been addressed? Or are you simply ignoring it along with the other dozens and dozens of verses which prove reincarnation is taught throughout the Bible.

Please see the irrefutable proof below that the verse you've quoted cannot possibly be referring to human death, but instead is referring to the death of the "self".

Hebrews 9:27-28
9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

It should be self-evident that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Hebrews 9:27 to be referring to the death of the human body, as that would turn it into a lie.

Enoch was "translated" and thus didn't die even once. Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind/"chariot of fire" and likewise didn't die even once.

Further, all of the people that were raised from the dead (e.g. the widow of Zarephath's son, Lazarus, the ruler's daughter, and several others), all physically died twice.
You mustn’t have had many Hindu acquaintances -

Reincarnation is woven around the wheel of Karma and you could just as easily come back as a mouse or a Brussels sprout as a person, and that person would not be a continuation of “you” any more than one drop of water in an ocean is another.

The rule (in general) is that we are given one life, and what we choose to do with what we know of Jesus will determine our eternal future.

There are certainly exceptions to that general rule. All near death / returned from the dead experiences are exceptions. Lazarus was an exception, and Jesus raised him for a prophetic reason. Mystery surrounds the death of Moses. Elijah and Enoch were caught up, Samuel was disquieted etc.

In each case, there is no evidence that the person who died or was caught up came back as a different person or life form. Simply, God allowed an exception to His general rule to fulfil part of His sovereign will.
 

A Freeman

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You mustn’t have had many Hindu acquaintances -

Reincarnation is woven around the wheel of Karma
Have you been deceived into believing that karma isn't taught in the Bible?

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap.

Read John 5:14 and John 9:1-3 again, already posted above, to see how God's PERFECT system of reward and punishment is carried out from one human lifetime to the next.

and you could just as easily come back as a mouse or a Brussels sprout as a person, and that person would not be a continuation of “you” any more than one drop of water in an ocean is another.
None of this has anything to do with what's taught in the Bible, which simply stated is this:

At the end of each human lifetime, we (spiritual-Beings/Souls) are brought to "paradise" to be given a life-review. All of the evil we've done in that human lifetime is then erased, and we are sent back into another human body with only the cumulative good that we've done from ALL our previous human lifetimes. That way each and every Soul is in the exact place they have earned a right to be in eternal time.

Of course if someone actually reads the Bhagavad Gita, they won't find anything about coming back as mice or brussels sprouts, etc. What they will find instead is the Gita restating a number of core Biblical principles (including Christ's core teaching of "self"-sacrifice and overcoming the irrational fear of human death), thereby directing people AWAY from their ridiculous, evil religious superstitions and back to Christ and the Bible (Kṛṣṇa is an obvious, direct cognate for Christ, The Master/Teacher).

Chapter 18 -- The Perfection of Renunciation
18:66 ABANDON ALL VARIETIES OF RELIGION (Enoch 104:8, Jer. 23:1-6, Ezek. 34:1-10, 23, Matt. 6:5-8, Matt. 7:21-27, Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, Rev. 2:20-23, Rev. 18:4, Sura 7:55, Sura 9:107-111) and just surrender unto Me (Matt. 23:8-10, Luke 9:23, John 10:7-11, 1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 6:20, Sura 3:45-55, Sura 43:57-61). I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction (John 1:29, Rev. 1:5). Do not fear (1 John 4:18).

The rule (in general) is that we are given one life,
Nonsense. How can you repeat such an obvious lie after being shown the truth about Hebrews 9:27?

and what we choose to do with what we know of Jesus will determine our eternal future.
How else, other than through reincarnation, can the disparities in physical ailments, ethnic backgrounds, living conditions, financial means, and exposure to vastly different levels of love, care, resources and understanding be explained? Some humans die as infants or children, while others live 100 years. So how are all of these differences explained if we only live one human life? Is God not just and fair in ALL things?

To think that God—Who is immortal, lives in eternity, is merciful and long-suffering that all might come to repentance—only gives a miserly seventy years (or less) out of the whole of eternity to get it right, or burn (in The Fire – the second death), is not only totally illogical and an insult to God, but further proof of not learning what NEEDS to be learned: HUMILITY, leading to the TRUTH about reincarnation. How can giving us seventy years (or less) out of eternity be considered long-suffering? Six thousand years is what God considers long-suffering.

There are certainly exceptions to that general rule.
So that's it? You've been deceived into believing that what God actually says isn't true in ALL circumstances? And this doesn't strike you as particularly satanic?

All near death / returned from the dead experiences are exceptions.
Which prove beyond any reasonable doubt that we don't all experience human death only once. In fact, given the Bible tells us it gets worse and worse each generation, it should be self evident that everyone here on Earth right now has experienced human death multiple times.

Christ promised His Disciples He would see them again during these end-times. Do you believe He was lying to them about that too?

Lazarus was an exception, and Jesus raised him for a prophetic reason.
Agreed. One of several (a dozen or so) exceptions to make it crystal clear that we are given more than one human lifetime to get it right. The prophetic significance this has on Christ's Second Coming in a new body with a new name should also be front and centre in the minds of anyone genuinely striving to get to know Father AND Christ, the Saviour, Whom Father sent.

Mystery surrounds the death of Moses. Elijah and Enoch were caught up, Samuel was disquieted etc.
Are these things really a mystery though to those who know they are spiritual-Beings, having truly been reborn as their true, spiritual selves from above? Or do they remain mysterious only to humans, who have no facility for spiritually seeing or understanding the supernatural, spiritual world?

In each case, there is no evidence that the person who died or was caught up came back as a different person or life form.
You can stop with the strawman argument of coming back as a different life-form. We are speaking strictly of humans, spirit-Beings (Souls) and human+Beings, as they are spoken about in Scripture.

We have already been given the example by Christ Himself of Elias (Elisha) coming back hundreds and hundreds of years later as John the Baptist.

We have Christ visiting multiple times as well, e.g. in the body of Melchizedek, in the body of Elijah (twice) and in the body of Jesus.

And we have scores of verses telling us that millions upon millions will come back during the latter days. In fact, everyone here now has been here many times before and experienced numerous human lifetimes. How much evidence does one need? It's truly amazing that you can even utter such an obvious lie after being provided ample evidence.

Simply, God allowed an exception to His general rule to fulfil part of His sovereign will.
So, in your mind -- to maintain your fantastical unScriptural belief in "YOLO" -- you've chosen to be deceived into believing God told us a lie to "fulfil part of His sovereign will"?
 
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