“All of our righteousness is as filthy rags” ~ Isaiah 64:6

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#41
In short, do you believe a person may reject the following and still inherit eternal life?


1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
How long are you going to argue with Jesus Christ ?


Matthew 19 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
 





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#42
Then we differ in our perspectives there. I think belief in Jesus is more important because deeds follow faith. One doesn't need to believe in Jesus to follow his commands. This does NOT imply that deeds are worthless or that once saved, you can go on living as you did before. Quite the opposite actually.
Belief in Jesus ought to be a great benefit but as is evident from a lot of christians today... they stop there.


If salvation is more about actions than faith, what about someone who after a lifetime of sin, commits their life to God on their deathbed with no time to live Jesus's words out in practice. Is he exempt from salvation?
God is not mocked.

God would not allow a lifetime of sin... for so to excuse that sinner on his deathbed.
 





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#43
So from your perspective, it's not necessary to believe on Jesus as the messiah and saviour, but rather that one's good deeds outweigh the bad?
No there can be no bad deeds at all !

It is a great benefit and crucial in most cases to believe in Jesus... but if that belief doesn't make one live according to His words... it is in the end no good.
 





Robin

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#44
Belief in Jesus ought to be a great benefit but as is evident from a lot of christians today... they stop there.
Just a "benefit"?

Titus 2:11-14
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."

Grace and salvation through Christ comes BEFORE good works.

God is not mocked.

God would not allow a lifetime of sin... for so to excuse that sinner on his deathbed.
Who says it's a mockery? Only God knows what is in a man's heart. How many people did Jesus not heal in the NT because of their faith, not because they were righteous through works only.

No there can be no bad deeds at all !

It is a great benefit and crucial in most cases to believe in Jesus... but if that belief doesn't make one live according to His words... it is in the end no good.
Jesus was the only man in history without iniquity. So how does this even make sense if literally everyone has fallen short of the glory of God? That means everyone is need of repentance.

John 3: 16-19

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
 





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#45
Titus 2:11-14
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."

Grace and salvation through Christ comes BEFORE good works.
Read it again.

The grace of God that brings salvation... is teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly and godly.



Who says it's a mockery? Only God knows what is in a man's heart. How many people did Jesus not heal in the NT because of their faith, not because they were righteous through works only.

Carnals can become Christians by the converting power of the Holy spirit.

Christians are supposed to be converted by the Holy spirit and live righteously.



Jesus was the only man in history without iniquity. So how does this even make sense if literally everyone has fallen short of the glory of God? That means everyone is need of repentance.

John 3: 16-19

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Repent then and turn from sins towards living according to Jesus words.
 





Robin

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#47
Read it again.

The grace of God that brings salvation... is teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly and godly.
But it starts with belief in Jesus. Find a single righteous unbeliever who lives according to all of God's laws. Will you find one? Living in godliness comes AS A RESULT of salvation and Grace.


Carnals can become Christians by the converting power of the Holy spirit.

Christians are supposed to be converted by the Holy spirit and live righteously.
What?

Repent then and turn from sins towards living according to Jesus words.
And how does one repent? You can't repent and hold yourself accountable to one you don't believe in. Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no one can get to the Father but through Him. He is also the mediator between men and God -how are those who do not believe in him reconciled to the Father then?
 





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#48
But it starts with belief in Jesus.
Yes belief in Jesus is a great start... but it must not stop there.

Just believing in Jesus will not save anybody.

One must actually repent of sins and start to live according to His words.



Carnal people can be converted to Christians by the Holy spirit.

Christians are converted by the Holy spirit and so are no longer carnal people.



And how does one repent? You can't repent and hold yourself accountable to one you don't believe in.
That's why i always say it's a great benefit and crucial to most to believe in Jesus Christ.

Because if one doesn't believe in Him there might be no urgency to repent.


Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no one can get to the Father but through Him. He is also the mediator between men and God -how are those who do not believe in him reconciled to the Father then?
Righteous persons don't need to be reconciled with the Father.
 





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#49
The former, of course. The latter doesn't exist.
Righteous persons didn't exist before Jesus ?

Yes they did but not many of course.

Also after Jesus there were righteous persons who did not know about Him.


There have always been people living according to conscience... which is God's way of nudging us in the right direction.
 





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#50
Righteous persons didn't exist before Jesus ?
What made them righteous was their Faith-- take Abraham:

"Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them."​
And (God) said to him, "So will your descendants be."​
And (Abram) believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.​
GENESIS 15:5-7

So this person in the hypothetical--

one who doesn't believe in Jesus
but is not in sin ?​

-- still would not qualify (if he existed). :/
 





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#51
What made them righteous was their Faith-- take Abraham:

"Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them."​

And (God) said to him, "So will your descendants be."​

And (Abram) believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.​

GENESIS 15:5-7

So this person in the hypothetical--

one who doesn't believe in Jesus

but is not in sin ?​

-- still would not qualify (if he existed). :/
It's not possible to believe in Jesus before hearing about Him.

There were millions before and after Jesus who never heard of Him.

So believing in Jesus is not a prerequisite for salvation.



Repentance is... that is turning from sins as in sin no more.

Jesus paid the price for sins and so repentance receive remission of sins.
 





Robin

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#52
Yes belief in Jesus is a great start... but it must not stop there.

Just believing in Jesus will not save anybody.

One must actually repent of sins and start to live according to His words.
No one said differently - the only difference here seems to be that you place emphasis on our righteousness purchasing salvation instead of Jesus's sacrifice being sufficient . . . Which is saying righteousness comes through the law. Paul says in Galatians 2:20-21 that if that was the case then Christ died in vain.

Carnal people can be converted to Christians by the Holy spirit.

Christians are converted by the Holy spirit and so are no longer carnal people.
That's basically saying the same thing . . .

That's why i always say it's a great benefit and crucial to most to believe in Jesus Christ.

Because if one doesn't believe in Him there might be no urgency to repent.
So again, what happens if someone outright rejects Jesus but lives according to his words. What happens then?

Righteous persons don't need to be reconciled with the Father.
No one is born righteous and everyone has fallen short. If it were possible then Jesus would not have had to die -what was the point of His sacrifice then?
 





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#53
It's not possible to believe in Jesus before hearing about Him.
Did Abraham believe in the Messiah who was to come? John 8 suggests he did...

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

How would you interpret the words of Jesus here @TokiEl ?
 





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#54
No one said differently - the only difference here seems to be that you place emphasis on our righteousness purchasing salvation instead of Jesus's sacrifice being sufficient . . . Which is saying righteousness comes through the law. Paul says in Galatians 2:20-21 that if that was the case then Christ died in vain.
Sinners need to repent right ?

If sinners want to be forgiven they need to repent... that is turn from sins.


Jesus Christ paid the price for sins... and repentance receive remission of sins.

If Jesus Christ did not come and pay the price for sins... our repentance would be in vain. We would have to carry our sins ourselves and in the end be judged by God. Now we can repent and receive mercy.

So Jesus did absolutely not die in vain.



So again, what happens if someone outright rejects Jesus but lives according to his words. What happens then?
When one has the fortune to hear about Jesus and still reject Him... it might be an indication that some sin is blinding them from seeing the Light and hearing the Truth. And so those are not really living according to His words but has some sort of sin in their lives which they don't want to get rid of. It could be pride or homosexuality or etc etc...



No one is born righteous and everyone has fallen short.
God speaks as if painting a picture with a broad brush.

But of course righteous people don't grow on trees... neither before nor after Jesus.


If it were possible then Jesus would not have had to die -what was the point of His sacrifice then?
There were and are a lot of sinners in the world.

And they need their sins removed... and that's what Jesus is about.
 





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#55
Did Abraham believe in the Messiah who was to come? John 8 suggests he did...

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

How would you interpret the words of Jesus here @TokiEl ?
There were millions around the world both before and after Jesus who never heard about Him.

So salvation cannot hinge on believing in Jesus. Imagine yourself the absurdity at the end of the age.


God: Do you believe in Jesus ?
Somebody: Who ?

God: My Son Jesus. Do you believe in Him ?
Somebody: I've never heard of Him.

God: Too bad.
 





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#56
It's not possible to believe in Jesus before hearing about Him.

There were millions before and after Jesus who never heard of Him.

So believing in Jesus is not a prerequisite for salvation.

Repentance is... that is turning from sins as in sin no more.

Jesus paid the price for sins and so repentance receive remission of sins.
That has nothing to do with what I said.

What made them righteous was their Faith-- take Abraham:
And (Abram) believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.​
GENESIS 15:5-7
 





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#57
There were millions around the world both before and after Jesus who never heard about Him.

So salvation cannot hinge on believing in Jesus. Imagine yourself the absurdity at the end of the age.


God: Do you believe in Jesus ?
Somebody: Who ?


God: My Son Jesus. Do you believe in Him ?
Somebody: I've never heard of Him.


God: Too bad.

This section of Romans 10 brings before us the answer to the most frequently asked questions we hear, especially from non-Christians. That question is, "What happens to all the people who never hear about Jesus?" That question in phrased in a variety of forms, but basically it is the expressed concern of many -- especially when they hear Christians talking about the uniqueness of Jesus. When we say, as Paul so strongly says in this passage, that Jesus is Lord and it is only through him that men come to God, immediately it raises the question, "Well, what about those who never hear of Jesus?" We are going to come to the answer to that in Verses 14-21 of Romans 10. In the first part of Chapter 10, the apostle said that in order for any individual person to be salvaged from the wreck of humanity, he must call upon the name of the Lord. Notice how Paul quotes the prophet Joel in Verse 13:

...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; (Joel 2:32a)

Well, how do you do that? How do you call on the name of the Lord?

https://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/romans/have-they-not-heard

You have heard though...
 





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#59
So if all of our righteousness, or would-be righteousness, is filthy rags, why bother with that which follows?

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" (Micah 6:8)
 





Robin

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#60
So if all of our righteousness, or would-be righteousness, is filthy rags, why bother with that which follows?

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" (Micah 6:8)
I think the point of our righteousness being as filthy rags before the Lord is merely illustrating that there is no way to please a perfect God in whom there is no sin or iniquity to earn His mercy -I don't think it's a call to nihilism and dismissal of the other commandments, most of which can be seen as sound moral advice even by those who do not believe -again focusing specifically on Jesus's summary of the law which is to love God with all we are and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves. Instead there are many who (even in Jesus's day) believed they could earn their way to salvation which usually consisted of deeds performed out of religious compunction and not love or genuine devotion. I think it's clear God expects righteousness and holiness from those who claim to have truly been saved.