‘Transgender’ Could Be Defined Out of Existence Under Trump Administration

Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
70
Likes
95
#41
I've already gone over this very topic multiple times on this forum. The Sweden study never once states that the transgender suicide rates rise after transitioning. It actually says the exact opposite, it says that transitioning lowers the suicide rate.

But the study noticed that during the time when the study began, in the 70s, the transgender suicide rate was still higher than the cisgender suicide rate... Although the suicide rate was lower after transitioning, it still did not even out to the level of the rest of the population. This was due to the terrible social climate and all of the discrimination that transgender people faced. They were not accepted in society and they did not have access to the proper care that was tailored to their needs. Even though their gender dysphoria was alleviated through transitioning, they still faced an immense amount of social hardship and a lack of support which led to a lot of suicides.

The study concluded that as the social climate improved and proper, individually tailored care became more readily available, the suicide rate leveled out to become equal with the cisgender population.

The doctor who conducted the study has publicly stated multiple times that the study never once claimed that transitioning was not beneficial. People are deliberately lying about it and misinterpreting it. I don't know how you can continue to claim blatantly false things using this study when the person who actually conducted it tells you that what you said is wrong.
Still on with your pseudo-scientific feels-generating, huh?

Personal opinions and intellectually dishonest ramblings provide nothing to refute the figure (from the study) of an approximate 40% increase in suicide after people with transgenderism undergo sex reassignment. The rumbling, bumbling, stumbling Narrative is not helping your argument. The only thing that can help you, at this point, is a quote from the doctor. However, does it exist?

Who told you the doctor "has publicly stated multiple times that the study never once claimed that [sex reassignment] was not beneficial." If there are "multiple times," there should be something available from which to source those comments. Please share. You neglected to provide it last time we had this dance, and if my predictive model of your behavior is accurate, you will continue with neglecting to provide a quote or source (any source) to back up your pseudo-scientific taradiddle. Instead, choosing to excrete inanities in an attempt at convincing people through the illusory truth effect (that is, when a lie is repeated over and over, eventually people will believe it, even if they already know the lie to be untrue).

Misinterpreting the results of a study (or making stuff up) to fit your biases is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order. Do you actually believe we should trust statements concocted through lying, doubling down, and projecting? If so, provide a source. I am curious as to how you come up with this stuff, where you get it from, and who believes it. You must have gotten it from somewhere...
 





Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
28
Likes
57
#42
I've already gone over this very topic multiple times on this forum. The Sweden study never once states that the transgender suicide rates rise after transitioning. It actually says the exact opposite, it says that transitioning lowers the suicide rate.

But the study noticed that during the time when the study began, in the 70s, the transgender suicide rate was still higher than the cisgender suicide rate... Although the suicide rate was lower after transitioning, it still did not even out to the level of the rest of the population. This was due to the terrible social climate and all of the discrimination that transgender people faced. They were not accepted in society and they did not have access to the proper care that was tailored to their needs. Even though their gender dysphoria was alleviated through transitioning, they still faced an immense amount of social hardship and a lack of support which led to a lot of suicides.

The study concluded that as the social climate improved and proper, individually tailored care became more readily available, the suicide rate leveled out to become equal with the cisgender population.

The doctor who conducted the study has publicly stated multiple times that the study never once claimed that transitioning was not beneficial. People are deliberately lying about it and misinterpreting it. I don't know how you can continue to claim blatantly false things using this study when the person who actually conducted it tells you that what you said is wrong.
I've already gone over this very topic multiple times on this forum. The Sweden study never once states that the transgender suicide rates rise after transitioning. It actually says the exact opposite, it says that transitioning lowers the suicide rate.

But the study noticed that during the time when the study began, in the 70s, the transgender suicide rate was still higher than the cisgender suicide rate... Although the suicide rate was lower after transitioning, it still did not even out to the level of the rest of the population. This was due to the terrible social climate and all of the discrimination that transgender people faced. They were not accepted in society and they did not have access to the proper care that was tailored to their needs. Even though their gender dysphoria was alleviated through transitioning, they still faced an immense amount of social hardship and a lack of support which led to a lot of suicides.

The study concluded that as the social climate improved and proper, individually tailored care became more readily available, the suicide rate leveled out to become equal with the cisgender population.

The doctor who conducted the study has publicly stated multiple times that the study never once claimed that transitioning was not beneficial. People are deliberately lying about it and misinterpreting it. I don't know how you can continue to claim blatantly false things using this study when the person who actually conducted it tells you that what you said is wrong.
Can you show me where the study says that? I provided a link, and direct quotes.

this just sounds like your opinion. I'd love to see the literature you're citing.
 





mecca

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
7,093
Likes
12,032
#43
@irrationalNinja
I am going to ignore the personal attacks and I'm just going to provide the facts for you.

The study is not comparing the suicide rate of transgender people before and after transitioning... it is comparing the suicide rate of transgender people to the cisgender population. This is a simple thing that you seem incapable of comprehending. It is not even studying whether transitioning is a helpful treatment because it had already been established that it was beneficial and that it alleviates gender dysphoria.

Everything I said is perfectly accurate in regards to what the study actually states. You can easily see this in the study itself. The conclusion says this:
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population... Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.
If you even bothered to exercise reading comprehension you can easily see that it is comparing the suicide rate of transgender people to the rest of the general population and not to transgender people before transitioning... as demonstrated by the words: "than the general population". I don't know why I have to explain this to you, but the "general population" is not referring to pre-transitioned transgender people, it is referring to the rest of the population of non-transgender people.

And if you read further you would see that the study directly states that transitioning alleviates gender dysphoria and is beneficial in that way. It says, "surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria"... Which means that it acknowledges that transitioning fixes gender dysphoria.

This is just one small paragraph from the entire study and it already disproves what you are claiming it says.

But the study goes on to state that although transitioning is beneficial and necessary in treatment, transgender people still have a higher suicide rate compared to the cisgender population and that improved care would be needed. Doctor Dhejne (the person who ran the study) has stated that improved care refers to increased social support for transgender people, and personally tailored care that is focused on the specific needs of the individual... so people can transition in the manner and to the extent that is best for them, and have support from their community.

The study began in the 70s, when transgender people faced even more discrimination than they do now... and at that time, transitioning was not sufficient enough to bring the transgender suicide rate to the same level as the cisgender suicide rate. Even though it helped to lower the suicide rate, it just was not enough... This was specifically due to the terrible social climate that transgender people were in. They had very little access to proper care and they did not have many support systems. They were treated as subhuman and being treated that way can easily lead a lot of people to take their own lives. Even if they are happy with their body and their transition, trans people are not going to want to live in a world where they have no rights and are treated as less than human... no one would.

But since the study took place over a long span of time (1973-2003) they observed the social climate changing and care improving. The data showed that during the 70s, when the social climate was very against transgender people, their suicide rate was high. But over time as they gained more acceptance, support, and personally tailored care, the suicide rate leveled out to be equal to the rest of the population after transitioning.

The study was separated into two cohort groups, one spanning 1973-1988 and the other going from 1989-2003. The 1973-1988 cohort showed a suicide rate higher than the cisgender population. The 1989-2003 cohort showed a suicide rate equal to the cisgender population.

As you should be able to discern by now, the study was not structured to evaluate the validity transitioning, it was specifically studying what transgender people needed in addition to transitioning at that time. What the study concluded was that societal support and acceptance along with personally tailored care in addition to transitioning is what levels the transgender suicide rate to be equal to the cisgender suicide rate. And subsequent studies have show the same things... the trans suicide rate is equal to the cisgender suicide rate when transgender people are able to transition in a positive social climate.

Transitioning has consistently been proven to help transgender people. It alleviates gender dysphoria and saves lives... without question, it is a beneficial treatment. Like I said, if transitioning was not beneficial, no one would seek it or recommend it... but it has been proven to be beneficial. Transitioning literally saves lives.
Here are some quotes from Dr. Dhejne (from a Reddit AMA where she answers questions about her study) clarifying exactly what I've told you:
I have said many times that the study is not design to evaluate the outcome of medical transition. It DOES NOT say that medical transition causes people to commit suicide.
The study was not designed to answer the question if gender-affirming surgery causes mortality suicide or criminality so it could not be used to say that gender-affirming surgery causes death... To my knowledge there is no study that had showed that suicide attempts in the transgender group is due to that they regret transition. However there are some studies showing an association with suicidality and minority stress (Bauer et al 2015; Bockting et al 2013; Marchall et al 2015).

@Rodreezus
Here is an interview with Doctor Cecilia Dhejne, the woman who conducted the study. She has come out herself and said that people are not accurately portraying her study. She says that people are completely misinterpreting what it says.
http://www.transadvocate.com/fact-c...ition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

Here are some quotes from that interview that highlight what I have been trying to explain to you guys:
The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.
Trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, r*pe and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress. What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.
People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment.
People are deliberately using this study to claim false things about transgender people. The study does not support those false claims. The data is against what you are saying and the person who conducted the study is telling you that those claims are false... I think it's time for you guys to accept the facts. To put it simply, transitioning alleviates transgender people's gender dysphoria but it does not eliminate the social discrimination they face that causes them to commit suicide. But when the social climate improves and trans people are treated like human beings and are allowed to transition with the support of their communities, their mental health improves and the suicide rate becomes normal... (Who could've guessed!)
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 20, 2017
Messages
2,662
Likes
4,429
#44
I agreed with everything you said but this. I don’t believe the proper treatment for gender dysphasia is gender reassignment. The literature on this indicate the same, or higher rates of suicide among transgender individuals after sexual reassignment surgery. The procedure doesn’t solve their problems. IMO it’s akin to pretending to see your schitzophrenic neighbor’s delusions.

I agree that their feelings are real, but the push towards acceptance into the mainstream is a real problem. Live and let live, I’m cool with that. When you start to force your beliefs on me, force me to teach my children that gender is fluid, we have a problem.
exactly. we are all entitled to freedom as long as we don't infringe on the life liberty or pursuit of happiness of others. at least in america. i only have a prob when it encroaches over into my rights :)
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,494
Likes
5,732
#46
No one is trying to erase or take rights away from transsexuals.

But we're at the point where men who identify as women are entering women's competitions and winning, and anyone who thinks that's just a little messed up is accused of being hateful. How on earth did we get here?

The stupidity needs to stop. Trans people are not any better than anyone else, and just because a guy calls himself a girl does not make it literally so. Making someone's delusion a legal fact, and criminalizing disagreement with that "fact" goes completely against the idea of a free society.
 





Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
2,987
Likes
3,936
#47
in
No one is trying to erase or take rights away from transsexuals.

But we're at the point where men who identify as women are entering women's competitions and winning, and anyone who thinks that's just a little messed up is accused of being hateful. How on earth did we get here?

The stupidity needs to stop. Trans people are not any better than anyone else, and just because a guy calls himself a girl does not make it literally so. Making someone's delusion a legal fact, and criminalizing disagreement with that "fact" goes completely against the idea of a free society.
A trans woman actually competing in a sports event with woman will usually have a bone density, strength level and hormone level similar to a 'biological woman'

I doubt that as they are one of the most persecuted populations on God's Blue, revolving around the Sun Earth, feel they are better than you in any way, and I'm so sorry if a few pronoun choices trigger you.

That said you picked a weird thing (sports) to fixate on. Sports is actually the opiate of the masses, my bastard ancestors the Romans sure knew it.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Mar 20, 2017
Messages
2,662
Likes
4,429
#48
true i loathe sports but doesn't seem fair to the kiddos who play. fascinating discussion though in this era of female empowerment to have to admit that in terms of strength and physicality men and women are different!
 





mecca

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
7,093
Likes
12,032
#49
No one is trying to erase or take rights away from transsexuals.
Donald Trump and the US gov is.
Making someone's delusion a legal fact, and criminalizing disagreement with that "fact" goes completely against the idea of a free society.
Trans people are not delusional. People can "disagree" all they want, it has never been illegal to do so.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
3,226
Likes
3,386
#50
Men who "transition" into females have even more of an advantage over natural female athletes than a biologically natural female who utilizes PED's (performance enhancing drugs). Its a fact, and its scary, especially in contact & combat sports.
 





Last edited:
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Messages
143
Likes
227
#52
in

A trans woman actually competing in a sports event with woman will usually have a bone density, strength level and hormone level similar to a 'biological woman'

I doubt that as they are one of the most persecuted populations on God's Blue, revolving around the Sun Earth, feel they are better than you in any way, and I'm so sorry if a few pronoun choices trigger you.

That said you picked a weird thing (sports) to fixate on. Sports is actually the opiate of the masses, my bastard ancestors the Romans sure knew it.
Not per the USA Powerlifting association:
Transgender Participation Policy

Seems science says otherwise