הַנְּפִלִ֞ים - The Nephilim

Red Sky at Morning

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I assume you're saying that in certain occasions, either or both can apply.

Absolutely.
Sorry to be so obtuse - I mean that when you look at something down to the word level and you are faced with a variety of possibilities, looking at the macro level can yield extra clarity.

For example, on a separate topic, I found the macro level of past, present and future world history as outlined in the first eleven books of the Bible a fascinating study...

 
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phipps

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I will add more information to back the Bible on what I posted here in this very thread about how nephilim or giants.Most Christian interpretations of Genesis 6:1-4, say that the "sons of God" refers to divine beings or angels. What is the proper understanding of this text biblically?

Genesis 6:1-4 says, "Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

The Bible is its own interpreter as we'll see here. We should begin with the biblical text itself. From it we can observe the following points:

1. Use of "sons of God" in the Old Testament. A study of the phrase reveals that it is used to designate the Israelite king (Psalm 2:7; 2 Samuel 7:14); angels (Job 38:7); and heavenly beings, members of the divine council (Job 1:6; 2:1). In a very special way the Israelites are called sons/children of God. Israel is the firstborn son of God (Exodus 4:22-23).

2. Immediate context. In Genesis 4 and 5 the human race is divided into two main groups: the descendants of Cain (Genesis 4:17-24) and those of Seth (verses 25-26). In Genesis 6:1-2 this division is clearly recognized by referring to those who followed the Lord as "sons of God" and to the rest of humanity as "men." There is nothing in the immediate context to suggest that the "sons of God" are kings, angels, or heavenly beings.

3. Significance of the expression "to take a wife." Verse 2 describes a legal and permanent union between the sons of God and the daughters of men. "They took wives for themselves of all whom they chose." includes a verb that is a technical expression to designate marriage, the act of entering into a legal and binding relationship between a man and a woman (Genesis 4:19; 11:29; 12:19; 20:2-3). Had the reference been to angels, one would have to conclude that they married the daughters of men and became their legal husbands. This is not biblical and is rejected by by all serious interpreters.

4. Concept of judgment. The sin of the "sons of God" brought judgment on the human race. Had they been angels or heavenly beings, they, and possibly the daughters of men, should have been punished for their sins, but not the human race as a whole.

5. Descendants were human beings. Children born as a result of these intermarriages are not described as semi-divine or semi-angelic beings. There is a reference to the nephilim who were on the earth in those days, but the Hebrew text does not say that they were the descendants of the intermarriages (although some translations make that suggestion).

The sentence "The nephilim/giants were on the earth in those days. . ." seems to be a parenthetical statement. Nephilim is a Hebrew word whose meaning is not clear, and translators do not provide any English equivalent. In Numbers 13:33 this term designates giants. The antediluvian nephilim were destroyed by the Flood, but later the term was used to refer to people of unusual height and violence who inhabited the land of Canaan.

"Men of renown" means "men of reputation" and describes a person with a good character (1 Chronicles 12:30), and also individuals who use their influence for evil purposes (Numbers 16:2; 3; 1 Chronicles 5:24-25). Here the contexts seems to require a negative interpretation of that terminology.

Thus contextual and linguistic analysis indicates that the best interpretation of the phrase "sons of God" is the one that finds in it a designation of the descendants of Seth. This appears to be the one suggested by Scripture itself.

Link


Plus the Bible tells us that the giants existed before and after the sons of God. "There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown" (Genesis 6:4).

Scripture is silent on the identity of the Nephilim. As to why some translation favours the “giant” translation of the word might be because of its association with the “Anakim.” The Bible associates the Nephilim to the Children of Anak in Numbers 13:33. In many passages, especially in the book of Deuteronomy (1:28, 2:10-11, 21, 9:2), the Anakim are described as being chiefly and especially tall people. In Joshua 11:22, the Children of Anak are said to have been completely driven out from the land Israel and could only be found in Gaza, Gath and Ashdod. It is interesting to note that Goliath, who was considered a giant, nearing nearly ten feet tall, was born in Gath.

Are the Nephilim a race, a tribe or simply really tall people? There is no absolute answers since it has not been clearly revealed in the scripture. We can make certain association that seems to indicate that they are taller than the average men which is probably why they were considered giants especially when considering the link with Goliath of Gath. It is very unlikely that they were something more then mere men, and as diligent Bible student, we should not lose focus on the weightier matter surrounding the events of the flood.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Julius Africanus on the Nephilim

Sextus Julius Africanus (160-240 AD) is perhaps the first to radically reinterpret and misinterpret the Genesis 6 affair as pertaining to what has come to be known as the Sethite view which claims that the “sons of God” are the godly lineage of Seth (why only males and why all godly?) and the “daughters of men” are the ungodly lineage of Cain (why only females and why all ungodly?).

As for example chronicled in section II of The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus, he wrote:
When men multiplied on the earth, the angels of heaven came together with the daughters of men. In some copies I found "the sons of God." What is meant by the Spirit, in my opinion, is that the descendants of Seth are called the sons of God on account of the righteous men and patriarchs who have sprung from him, even down to the Saviour Himself; but that the descendants of Cain are named the seed of men, as having nothing divine in them, on account of the wickedness of their race and the inequality of their nature, being a mixed people, and having stirred the indignation of God.

At this point, a footnote states, “The text here is manifestly corrupt: ἐπιμιχθέντων αὐτῶν, τὴν ἀγανάκτησιν ποιήσασθαι τὸν Θεόν” which means words to the effect of “To those who have done it, to the restoration of God.”

Julius Africanus .jpg


In any case, note that Julius Africanus’ claims are “in my opinion” and he provides no biblical backing for his opinion that from the descendants of Seth, apparently exclusively, righteous men and patriarchs sprung but the descendants of Cain, apparently exclusively, have nothing divine in them. In fact, we do not know that they, in general and as a lineage “stirred the indignation of God” but know only that Cain did so.

Julius Africanus ends this section thusly:
But if it is thought that these refer to angels, we must take them to be those who deal with magic and jugglery, who taught the women the motions of the stars and the knowledge of things celestial, by whose power they conceived the giants as their children, by whom wickedness came to its height on the earth, until God decreed that the whole race of the living should perish in their impiety by the deluge.

Thus, he was clearly aware of the common understanding of Genesis 6 and even touches upon extra biblical claims about the actions of these Angels as the Bible does not relate what they taught but apocryphal works, such as the Book of Enoch do.

Note just how the times, and personal opinions, have changed to the extent that Africanus can, in his time, note that “it is thought that these refer to angels” but in 1831 AD Adam Clarke (Commentary on the Bible) notes that, in his time, “there is a distinction made here between men and those called the sons of God, it is generally supposed that the immediate posterity of Cain and that of Seth are intended. The first were mere men, such as fallen nature may produce, degenerate sons of a degenerate father, governed by the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life. The others were sons of God, not angels, as some have dreamed, but such as were, according to our Lord's doctrine, born again, born from above.” Clarke offers no elucidating data from the Bible’s contents, concepts and contexts but merely refers to the original and thus ancient interpretation as being something dreamed up.

 

TokiEl

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Where do demons come from ?

Jesus used to throw them out of people... but what are they ?


They are spirits of dead nephilim/giants according to Enoch.

That's what they are.
 

meximonk

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I speak, read and write Biblical Hebrew. B'nei Elohim is best translated literally as, "sons/grandsons/relatives of gods". It has nothing to do with the word "King"! That is the word "Melech". (Which incidentally is also the Ancient Hebrew word for the Planet Jupiter...)

The word "B'nei" (Strongs H0112) means son in the widest sense, as in a builder of the family name.

The word "Elohim" is most aptly described as a title, not quite as specific by any means as the English word "God" and really is only appropriately translated to that as "god" in a lower case sense.

Sorry, not trying to piss others off, but it just really urks me to see people trampling all over Biblical Hebrew when I've been studying it my entire adult life and a few of my teen years to boot.
 

meximonk

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The implication by using the phrase "sons of gods" only works in context with Biblical Hebrew when you are referring to Angelic beings, as that is the same terminology used in Genesis 1. Men and kings of men did not help YHVH create the Cosmos & the Earth.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The implication by using the phrase "sons of gods" only works in context with Biblical Hebrew when you are referring to Angelic beings, as that is the same terminology used in Genesis 1. Men and kings of men did not help YHVH create the Cosmos & the Earth.


Am I to take it you think angels helped God create the universe (and should therefore be credited for their efforts). Does this agree with John 1?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Some reflections on IXXI



DNA Triple Helix Formation - A Potential Tool for Genetic Repair

Abstract

DNA triple helices offer new perspectives towards oligonucleotide-directed gene regulation. Triple helix forming oligonucleotides, which bind to double-stranded DNA, are of special interest since they are targeted to the gene itself rather than to its mRNA product (as in the antisense strategy). However, the poor stability of some of these structures might limit their use under physiological conditions. Specific ligands can intercalate into DNA triple helices and stabilize them. This review summarizes recent advances in this field while also highlighting major obstacles that remain to be overcome, before the application of triplex technology to therapeutic gene repair can be achieved.


And

The emerging role of triple helices in RNA biology

 
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TokiEl

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Pope Francis (Latin: Franciscus; Italian: Francesco; Spanish: Francisco; born Jorge Mario Bergoglio, 17 December 1936) is, as the Bishop of Rome, the head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of the Vatican City State. Francis is the first Jesuit pope,
 

phipps

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The implication by using the phrase "sons of gods" only works in context with Biblical Hebrew when you are referring to Angelic beings, as that is the same terminology used in Genesis 1. Men and kings of men did not help YHVH create the Cosmos & the Earth.
The term "sons of God" refers to unfallen angels, heavenly beings and righteous people in the Bible. Its usually used to denote God's creatures who acknowledge Him as the source and goal of their life and who enter into a relationship of trust and love with Him. Here are few verses to prove that.

Angels:
Job 38:7, "When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Heavenly beings or angels (we are not sure), members of the divine council:

Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.”


Job 2:1, "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord."

In here there is a meeting in heaven, it looks like this council meets regularly. We don't know if they are angels or other beings but Satan joins them. He is not referred to as a "son of God" because he is fallen. We know this because in verse 7 God asks him, "From where do you come?” Satan lost his son of God status after he sinned and was thrown out of heaven.

Israelite kings called a son of God:

Psalm 2:7, “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You."

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men."

Israel:

Exodus 4:22, 23, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”

Hosea 1:10, "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ "

Righteous people:


Matthew 5:9, “Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”

Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19, "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God."

1 John 3:1, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."

1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
 
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meximonk

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The term "sons of God" refers to unfallen angels, heavenly beings and righteous people in the Bible. Its usually used to denote God's creatures who acknowledge God as the source and goal of their life and who enter into a relationship of trust and love with Him. Here are few verses to prove that.

Angels:
Job 38:7, "When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Heavenly beings or angels (we are not sure), members of the divine council:
Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.”


Job 2:1, "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord."

In here there is a meeting in heaven, it looks like this council meets regularly. We don't know if they are angels or other beings but Satan joins them. He is not referred to as a "son of God" because he is fallen. We know this because in verse 7 God asks him, "From where do you come?” Satan lost his son of God status after he sinned and was thrown out of heaven.

Israelite kings called a son of God:
Psalm 2:7, “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You."

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men."

Israel:
Exodus 4:22, 23, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”

Hosea 1:10, "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ "

Righteous people:

Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Matthew 5:9, “Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”
You miss the point entirely, friend. You use English. I read the bible in Hebrew and Greek. What the translator says and what the Word says in Hebrew often vary.

EDIT: Typo
 

meximonk

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Am I to take it you think angels helped God create the universe (and should therefore be credited for their efforts). Does this agree with John 1?
I merely state what the language says. Draw your own conclusions.

This does not contradict John 1. If I tell you that I use a hammer to build my house, who built my house, the hammer, or myself?
 

phipps

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You miss the point entirely, friend. You use English. I read the bible in Hebrew and Greek. What the translator says and what the Word says in Hebrew often vary.

EDIT: Typo
I know you do (its the post I responded to). Whether its Hebrew, Greek or English, the Bible still uses "sons of God" to refer to angels, heavenly beings, Israel, righteous people and Jesus who is the ultimate Son of God. It doesn't just refer to angels. This is the truth of the Bible as I proved from scripture. There are many mistranslations of the Bible in different languages but the core message is still in there even in the worst Bibles. This part of the message is actually very clear and straight forward.
 
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meximonk

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I know you do (its the post I responded to). Whether its Hebrew, Greek or English, the Bible still uses "sons of God" to refer to angels, heavenly beings, Israel, righteous people and Jesus who is the ultimate Son of God. It doesn't just refer to angles. This is the truth of the Bible as I proved from scripture. There are many mistranslations of the Bible in different languages but the core message is still in there even in the worst Bibles. This part of the message is actually very clear and straight forward.
"This is the truth of the Bible as I proved from scripture."
With all due respect (you do have some great posts), this is not the truth of the Bible as you have proved from scripture. It's the truth of your opinion of Scripture from an English translation. Hebrew contradicts that post on several points.
 

phipps

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"This is the truth of the Bible as I proved from scripture."
With all due respect (you do have some great posts), this is not the truth of the Bible as you have proved from scripture. It's the truth of your opinion of Scripture from an English translation. Hebrew contradicts that post on several points.
It is according to my Bible. I quoted you actual scripture from both the Old and New Testaments that makes it clear about "sons of God". I believe it because its true. I believe I am a Son of God according to the Bible. God bless.

2 Corinthians 6:18, "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.”
 

meximonk

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It is according to my Bible. I quoted you actual scripture from both the Old and New Testaments that makes it clear about "sons of God". I believe it because its true. I believe I am a Son of God according to the Bible. God bless.

2 Corinthians 6:18, "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.”
Your Bible. I prefer God's Bible, not one written by King Jame's Translators, or the Queen of Spain's, etc. I'm not completely knocking it, mind you, reading, say, the KJV Bible, is certainly better than just about everything else you can read in English, probably anything else. That being said, I seek Truth above all else. That requires Striking at the Root. My King is not an Englishman, he's a Hebrew. And He warned me that His words would be twisted, so I try to get the Words from His own mouth.

EDIT:
Please know that by your words I still retain a lot of respect for you. You are one of my favorite posters on this entire board, and I believe that you are on the right track. I can't judge someone who was born after or before me. The main thing is that they were born.
 

phipps

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Your Bible. I prefer God's Bible, not one written by King Jame's Translators, or the Queen of Spain's, etc. I'm not completely knocking it, mind you, reading, say, the KJV Bible, is certainly better than just about everything else you can read in English, probably anything else. That being said, I seek Truth above all else. That requires Striking at the Root. My King is not an Englishman, he's a Hebrew. And He warned me that His words would be twisted, so I try to get the Words from His own mouth.

EDIT:
Please know that by your words I still retain a lot of respect for you. You are one of my favorite posters on this entire board, and I believe that you are on the right track. I can't judge someone who was born after or before me. The main thing is that they were born.
I believe God protects His word in all the languages its translated in and this subject is consistent and in harmony with the rest of the Bible. "Sons of God does not only refer only to angels. Jesus is not an angel and He is the Son of God. Israel were not angels and neither are the righteous. Its a term of endearment God uses for those who live by Him.

If you seek truth above all else then you will know that the Bible is consistent and always harmonises no matter what language a person is reading it in. What you're saying does not harmonise biblically. The Bible is its own interpreter and we are told in Isaiah 28:9-10 to compare scripture with scripture. One scripture is the key to unlock other scriptures. Its one of the reasons I always post scripture so we can compare it. It is essential to find and compare all the scriptures on a topic in order to grasp the entire scope of Bible teaching about it. The best commentary on Scripture is Scripture. Other resources like concordances help in studying the Bible but first, we have to discover all we can for ourselves from the Bible, then turn to other resources to aid in our study.

Plus weren't parts of the Bible written in Aramaic and Greek too? I believe for those of us who who can't read Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek, we should have the Bible with the closest translation to the original text of Scripture. In my case that is the KJV but I believe there is more to the Word of God than just knowing and understanding it in the original language it was written in. Many people including me know about God and we'll never be able to read or understand Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek. Having a relationship with Christ is the most important thing. Many people's lives from around the world have never been the same again since they read translated Bibles because God's Word is inspired, it convicts, corrects, and transforms us literally and freely. Many people who'll go to heaven and be with Christ forever will never know any of the original languages of the Bible but will have had a deep relationship with God and submitted to Him completely. Because they let the Holy spirit guide them in everything they do and they understood God better through His Word.

According to the Bible my King is not a Hebrew or any other nationality of the world for that matter. Nor does the Bible ever claim that. Even though Jesus came as a Jew to this world, He made it clear He came to save all of us. Jesus is a God of all people in this world as He is the one who created all of them. It was always His plan that the gospel get preached to all the whole world through the Jews. He told Abraham, all nations of the world would be blessed through his descendants (Genesis 22:18). It is Him who got His Word translated in so many languages from around the world to get everyone to hear and know about Him.

Yes there are problems with mistranslations here and there but the gist of the message of the Bible is intact. That hasn't stopped many finding God and their lives changed forever.

I respect you too but I disagree with you on this subject.
 
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meximonk

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I believe God protects His word in all the languages its translated in and this subject is consistent and in harmony with the rest of the Bible. "Sons of God does not only refer only to angels. Jesus is not an angel and He is the Son of God. Israel were not angels and neither are the righteous. Its a term of endearment God uses for those who live by Him.

If you seek truth above all else then you will know that the Bible is consistent and always harmonises no matter what language a person is reading it in. What you're saying does not harmonise biblically. The Bible is its own interpreter and we are told in Isaiah 28:9-10 to compare scripture with scripture. One scripture is the key to unlock other scriptures. Its one of the reasons I always post scripture so we can compare it. It is essential to find and compare all the scriptures on a topic in order to grasp the entire scope of Bible teaching about it. The best commentary on Scripture is Scripture. Other resources like concordances help in studying the Bible but first, we have to discover all we can for ourselves from the Bible, then turn to other resources to aid in our study.

Plus weren't parts of the Bible written in Aramaic and Greek too? I believe for those of us who who can't read Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek, we should have the Bible with the closest translation to the original text of Scripture. In my case that the KJV but I believe there is more to the Word of God than just knowing and understanding it in the original language it was written in. Many people including me know about God and we'll never be able to read or understand Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek. Having a relationship with Christ is the most important thing. Many people's lives from around the world have never been the same again since they read translated Bibles because God's Word is inspired, it convicts, corrects, and transforms us literally and freely. Many people who'll go to heaven and be with Christ forever will never know any of the original languages of the Bible but will have had a deep relationship with God and submitted to Him completely. Because they let the Holy spirit guide them in everything they do and they understood God better through His Word.

According to the Bible my King is not a Hebrew or any other nationality of the world for that matter. Nor does the Bible ever claim that. Even though Jesus came as a Jew to this world, He made it clear He came to save all of us. Jesus is a God of all people in this world as He is the one created all of them. It was always His plan that the gospel get preached to all the world through the Jews. He told Abraham, all nations of the world would be blessed through his descendants (Genesis 22:18). It is Him who got His Word translated in so many languages from around the world to get everyone to hear and know about Him.

Yes there are problems with mistranslations here and there but the gist of the message of the Bible is intact. That hasn't stopped many finding God and their lives changed forever.

I respect you too but I disagree with on this subject.
Why would Scripture warn us about corruption of the Word if it isn't relevant?
 

phipps

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Why would Scripture warn us about corruption of the Word if it isn't relevant?
There is corruption no doubt and we should be careful. Newer versions of the Bible are the worst but people can still find Christ in there too. The older versions of the Bible are more accurate, as accurate as they can be for translations. I'm talking about those translations from the received text. These translations try to convey the meaning of a passage, while at the same time preserving the words of the original. Also with the help of the Holy Spirit, we will be able to discern the meaning of scripture. The Sons of God subject as I told you is consistent with biblical doctrine.
 
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TokiEl

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Heavenly beings or angels (we are not sure), members of the divine council:
Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.”
Heavenly beings are angels.

Angels are heavenly beings.


"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord."

In here there is a meeting in heaven, it looks like this council meets regularly. We don't know if they are angels or other beings but Satan joins them. He is not referred to as a "son of God" because he is fallen. We know this because in verse 7 God asks him, "From where do you come?” Satan lost his son of God status after he sinned and was thrown out of heaven.
Satan is an angel and a heavenly being and a son of God.


Israelite kings called a son of God:
Psalm 2:7, “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You."
This is talking about the adon or lord Messiah... who sits beside YHWH in heaven.
 
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