Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

Todd

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Has anybody asked themselves what is this salvation I'm trying to earn? Is it happiness forever in some heaven? Is it to idolize forever that great big "Celebrity in the Sky" called God? Those don't seem like worthwhile goals for a human being.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -- Marcus Aurelius
Yeah, I've been trying to get the Christians here to see that salvation is so much more than just escape from hell or some silly fantasy of floating in the clouds of heaven.

My personal conviction is that salvation is the process of delieverance from a life selfishness into a life of compassion, mercy and grace. You know actually living how Jesus summed up the law....Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

If my faith doesn't reduce my selfishness or increase my charity and compassion towards others, then what is the point?
 

Lyfe

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Live a good life! And, all that implies.
In my early 20's I use to drink and party allot. Play video games. I had no responsibilities. I considered it good at the time. My life didnt necessarily benefit the world, but it benefited me... Is that a good life?
 
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Yeah, I've been trying to get the Christians here to see that salvation is so much more than just escape from hell or some silly fantasy of floating in the clouds of heaven.

My personal conviction is that salvation is the process of delieverance from a life selfishness into a life of compassion, mercy and grace. You know actually living how Jesus summed up the law....Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

If my faith doesn't reduce my selfishness or increase my charity and compassion towards others, then what is the point?
telling people about christ is also selfless if u are genuine, regardless of wether ur a charitable person or not everyone has areas they need to improve, ur acting holier than thou with fellow christians.
 

Alanantic

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If your sole rule in life was 'live a good life,' what would 'good' mean? What's at stake here is way an individual lives their life. So we can't be vague. We've got to define what 'good' means. The way one person defines 'good' might be different to how another person defines it. When you mean good, do you mean 'do no harm'?
The difference between us is you get your morals from a book. That way you don't need to use reason. I try to use common sense. Yes, it's MY common sense and MY concept of goodness, but that's the best any of us can do. Although your goodness may come out of "The Good Book", it is you that decides to except it. Religious people give up their right to discern morality for themselves using their sense of empathy or conscience, but instead get it from old moldy books written by primitive humans thousands of years ago.
 

Todd

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telling people about christ is also selfless if u are genuine, regardless of wether ur a charitable person or not everyone has areas they need to improve, ur acting holier than thou with fellow christians.
If you are not charitable your telling people about Christ will likely be fruitless.
 

Alanantic

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In my early 20's I use to drink and party allot. Play video games. I had no responsibilities. I considered it good at the time. My life didnt necessarily benefit the world, but it benefited me... Is that a good life?
What do YOU think???
 
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The difference between us is you get your morals from a book. That way you don't need to use reason. I try to use common sense. Yes, it's MY common sense and MY concept of goodness, but that's the best any of us can do. Although your goodness may come out of "The Good Book", it is you that decides to except it. Religious people give up their right to discern morality for themselves using their sense of empathy or conscience, but instead get it from old moldy books written by primitive humans thousands of years ago.
The Quran appeals to reason ceaselessly, it doesn't appeal to blind belief. Reason (as well as empathy and consience) and morality are intended to go hand in hand.

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. (8:22)
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know. (30:22)
[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants. Eat [therefrom] and pasture your livestock. Indeed, in that are signs for those of intelligence. (20:53-54)
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the day and night there are signs for people of reason. (3:190)
 

Lyfe

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"A wise man changes his mind often, a fool never. To change your mind is the best evidence you have one.” ~ Desmond Ford
Would you say that most people live a good life in a selfish context? Or, live a life that puts themselves first at the disregard of others?
 
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To the Ad, We sent their brother, Hud. He said, ‘My people, worship God. You have no god other than Him; you are only making up lies.I ask no reward from you, my people; my reward comes only from Him who created me. Why do you not use your reason?
(Quran 11:50-51)
 
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Children of Adam, did I not command you not to serve Satan, for he was your sworn enemy, but to serve Me? This is the straight path. He has led great numbers of you astray. Did you not use your reason?
(Quran 36:60-62)
 
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Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the alternation of night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea, carrying that which benefits men, and in the water Allah sent down from the sky, then revived with it the earth after it was dead, and in every creature He has scattered on it, and in turning of winds, and in the clouds employed to serve between heaven and earth, there are signs for those who have sense.
(Quran 2:164)
 

Alanantic

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The Quran appeals to reason ceaselessly, it doesn't appeal to blind belief. Reason (as well as empathy and consience) and morality are intended to go hand in hand.

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason. (8:22)
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know. (30:22)
[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants. Eat [therefrom] and pasture your livestock. Indeed, in that are signs for those of intelligence. (20:53-54)
Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the day and night there are signs for people of reason. (3:190)
I'm all for any book that makes people think!
 

Alanantic

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Would you say that most people live a good life in a selfish context? Or, live a life that puts themselves first at the disregard of others?
As we mature and gain awareness, it naturally becomes obvious that we are part of a social & ecological system. Our very survival depends on nurturing that.

"Self is the first thing we know as babes and it is the last thing that we shall know as sages" - Paul Brunton
 
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I'm all for any book that makes people think!
It is easily available online if you wish to read it. Even if you do not read it religiously, perhaps you could read it just to understand what Muslims believe.
(Muslims constitute 24% of the world's population.)
 

shankara

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Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the alternation of night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea, carrying that which benefits men, and in the water Allah sent down from the sky, then revived with it the earth after it was dead, and in every creature He has scattered on it, and in turning of winds, and in the clouds employed to serve between heaven and earth, there are signs for those who have sense.
(Quran 2:164)
This thing about "the alternation of night and day" could be referring to reincarnation, the perpetual cycle of life and death, youth and aging. The ships which sail in the sea is like the whole Buddhist notion of going towards "the other shore". "Revived it with the earth after it was dead", again could be referring to reincarnation. "The clouds employed to serve between heaven and earth", this is like the human life, the spiritual life where we are kind of suspended between the material existence and the spiritual existence, the life purely in God.

Perhaps the purpose of this passage is to be contemplated, to deeply consider its meaning (without taking refuge in some doctrine of whatever school, or the interpretation of those who may themselves be blind). The esoteric foundations of all religions are the same.
 

Alanantic

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It is easily available online if you wish to read it. Even if you do not read it religiously, perhaps you could read it just to understand what Muslims believe.
(Muslims constitute 24% of the world's population.)
I've got a hard copy in a box somewhere and one online version. Thanks for that. Bookmarked!
 
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This thing about "the alternation of night and day" could be referring to reincarnation, the perpetual cycle of life and death, youth and aging. The ships which sail in the sea is like the whole Buddhist notion of going towards "the other shore". "Revived it with the earth after it was dead", again could be referring to reincarnation. "The clouds employed to serve between heaven and earth", this is like the human life, the spiritual life where we are kind of suspended between the material existence and the spiritual existence, the life purely in God.

Perhaps the purpose of this passage is to be contemplated, to deeply consider its meaning (without taking refuge in some doctrine of whatever school, or the interpretation of those who may themselves be blind). The esoteric foundations of all religions are the same.
Islam, on the other hand states categorically that the soul cannot detach from a specially designed body and move on to another body, or upward and downward in a chain of worlds, heavens or hells. For our life on this earth the soul and the body belong together, they cannot be mixed and matched. There is only one soul belonging to one body that will be rewarded or punished on the Day of Judgement, to dwell forever in either Paradise or Hell. This is in stark contrast to Hinduism where heaven and hell are temporary abodes and a soul regains freedom over and over until it reaches self realisation or oneness with the eternal life force.

"But if they were returned to the world, they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden." (Quran 6:28)
 

Alanantic

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Islam, on the other hand states categorically that the soul cannot detach from a specially designed body and move on to another body, or upward and downward in a chain of worlds, heavens or hells. For our life on this earth the soul and the body belong together, they cannot be mixed and matched. There is only one soul belonging to one body that will be rewarded or punished on the Day of Judgement, to dwell forever in either Paradise or Hell. This is in stark contrast to Hinduism where heaven and hell are temporary abodes and a soul regains freedom over and over until it reaches self realisation or oneness with the eternal life force.

"But if they were returned to the world, they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden." (Quran 6:28)
Maybe people in the East reincarnate, but those in the West do not.(?)

Krishna, who some Hindus consider to be a full incarnation (purna avatar) of Vishnu, stated to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita that “You and I, Arjuna, have passed through many births. I know them all, even if you do not.” (4) Thus Krishna himself declared that he had incarnated previously.
 
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