Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

Lisa · Jul 2, 2020

seekinheart said:
U know whats for certain when u come on this forum is there is a consensus against Bible believing christians, its always astonishing.

And the unbelievers all think they know the Bible better....that’s what‘s really astonishing.

Lisa · Jul 2, 2020

Todd said:
Fixed it for you!

Alanantic · Jul 2, 2020

Todd said:
31 `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;

32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,

33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.

34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;

36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?

38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?

39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;

43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Uh...parroting scripture doesn't work for me.

Todd · Jul 2, 2020

Alanantic said:
Uh...parroting scripture doesn't work for me.

??
First you asked for a link, then you said you were too lazy to look it up for yourself, so I thought I would just post the verses for you. LOL!

Lyfe · Jul 2, 2020

Todd said:
I have asked that question at least 20 times on this forum and have never got a coherent answer!

The Goats

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Jude 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The Sheep

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I really believe the distinction is between the regenerate person(sheep) and the unregenerate person(goats). Those born again indwelt with the holy spirit and those still sensual having not the spirit. It really comes down to all the individuals who profess to be Christian, but are false converts on the premise that they have never been born again or regenerated by the holy spirit. These are the goats which sad to say is most who profess to be Christian. If someone is truly indwelt by the spirit of God, regenerated, and become a new creature then how can they continue to live in such a way that Jude describes? They may get lost and quench and grieve the holy spirit for a season, but eventually they come back through the conviction of the holy ghost or even Gods chastisement as he promises to do to all his covenant people. When I came to Christ I was grieved and hated the pleasures and sins I once loved. It wasn't really my flesh per say that was grieved, I was grieving the holy spirit and it became unbearable to live like that as I had began to miss walking with the lord and his presence. My heart and dispostion toward the very things I loved had changed completely. The goats or unregenerate people are not convicted by their sin and love as they do, because they are still in their Adamic nature predisposed to loving sin. God does not go after them as he did the one sheep. God does not chastise them for their sin... Its not even that they are disobedient Christians. Its that they aren't Christian at all. They need salvation and to be born again.

Todd · Jul 2, 2020

Lyfe said:
The Goats

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Jude 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The Sheep

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I really believe the distinction is between the regenerate person(sheep) and the unregenerate person(goats). Those born again indwelt with the holy spirit and those still sensual having not the spirit. It really comes down to all the individuals who profess to be Christian, but are false converts on the premise that they have never been born again or regenerated by the holy spirit. These are the goats which sad to say is most who profess to be Christian. If someone is truly indwelt by the spirit of God, regenerated, and become a new creature then how can they continue to live in such a way that Jude describes? They may get lost and quench and grieve the holy spirit for a season, but eventually they come back through the conviction of the holy ghost or even Gods chastisement as he promises to do to all his covenant people. When I came to Christ I was grieved and hated the pleasures and sins I once loved. It wasn't really my flesh per say that was grieved, I was grieving the holy spirit and it became unbearable to live like that as I had began to miss walking with the lord and his presence. My heart and dispostion toward the very things I loved had changed completely. The goats or unregenerate people are not convicted by their sin and love as they do, because they are still in their Adamic nature predisposed to loving sin. God does not go after them as he did the one sheep. God does not chastise them for their sin... Its not even that they are disobedient Christians. Its that they aren't Christian at all. They need salvation and to be born again.

I don't disagree with what you are saying here, but how is this the same as saying works are not important for salvation then? Clearly by your explanation works do matter for salvation. Why do Christian's feel the need to make their dogma so difficult to understand and comprehend with all the double speak and Christianese.....

Alanantic · Jul 2, 2020

Todd said:
??
First you asked for a link, then you said you were too lazy to look it up for yourself, so I thought I would just post the verses for you. LOL!

Dang! I guess I'm lazier than I thought! Thanks for pointing that out. Force of habit. I did go back and read it! Yeah, I don't see the "faithful" gettin' any brownie points there. Course, I never did think "belief" was worth much. I knew I was going to leave the church when I was 4 years old; mostly due to a "religious experience" I had then.

Corvus Metus · Jul 2, 2020

Tidal said:
Which bit of that passage do you mean exactly?
Fact is, mankind has built great cities and things but the world is still a mess, so all that work hasn't done him any good because he's neglected his spiritual development.
That's why the only work that should count above all else is-
"Work out your own salvation.." (Philip 2:12 KJV)

The part where it pretty much states those that don't feed the hungry, cloth the naked, or visit the sick and imprisoned will face eternal punishment.

Lyfe · Jul 2, 2020

Todd said:
I don't disagree with what you are saying here, but how is this the same as saying works are not important for salvation then? Clearly by your explanation works do matter for salvation. Why do Christian's feel the need to make their dogma so difficult to understand and comprehend with all the double speak and Christianese.....

One doesnt work to earn their salvation or maintain salvation as this is not even Biblical salvation. That is a religious person trying to gain favor or right standing with God. Works are an evidence of salvation or rather regeneration that takes place in the individual person which is a work of the holy spirit. We cannot produce the fruit of the holy spirit without the spirit. We cannot receive talents from Christ unless they come from him. We cannot produce fruit unless we are first connected to the vine.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Todd · Jul 2, 2020

Lyfe said:
One doesnt work to earn their salvation or maintain salvation as this is not even Biblical salvation. That is a religious person trying to gain favor or right standing with God. Works are an evidence of salvation or rather regeneration that takes place in the individual person which is a work of the holy spirit. We cannot produce the fruit of the holy spirit without the spirit. We cannot receive talents from Christ unless they come from him. We cannot produce fruit unless we are first connected to the vine.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Of course we can't earn salvation by works. But we can't earn it by faith either. The whole point of grace is that it is a gift. We can't earn it either way (faith or works). But to say that obedience (works) does not bring the favor or grace of God is also misleading. So my question is why is faith put above works. Clearly Jesus uses works and not faith to distinguish the difference between the sheep and the goats. He doesn't say depart because you didn't have faith.

Even the verse in Titus you list above says not by works but according to his mercy and regeneration...nothing about faith mentioned.

I think the real issue is that Chrisitans are still stuck in salvation being about going to heaven or hell, and escaping punishment, when Biblically salvation is freedom from the bondage of Sin. Since Paul himself equates salvation as a process (working out your salvation), it's obvious that spirit lead, righteous works of God, are part of the process. When you selflessly give of yourself to others, it naturally subdues the selfish, sinful nature and refocuses away from ourselves and more towards Christ. To say salvation is by fatih without works is very misleading of the actual process. Works of righteousness is one of the tools God uses to regenerate us.

If works are not relevant, explain Abraham. It wasn't until he actually moved to sacrifice his son, that God credited his faith as righteousness. To say he was justified by faith alone does not fit the narrative. It's when he went to act upon his faith that God poured his grace on Abraham and counted him as righteous. Faith without works is Dead. So why are Christians always so eager to point out that salvation is by faith without works? (It's a rhetorical question, I know the answer). It makes no sense and only confuses and misleads un-learned Christians (just as Peter warned that Paul's writings would do).

Tidal · Jul 2, 2020

My late father was a workaholic (literally) and worked at the same shoe factory all his life, becoming a department manager.
"That factory's my life" he once said to my mother and ended up half-nutty, completely losing his perspective on life, becoming small-minded, sly, and nasty, for example as a kid he once kicked me like a dog because I'd committed the heinous crime of throwing some orange peel down the toilet and it was too buoyant to flush.
So hard work didn't do him a blind bit of good at all spiritually-speaking.

A Freeman · Jul 3, 2020

What seems to be lost in all of this talk about "faith" without doing good, Godly works is that there is no such thing (James 2:17-26).

For each and every one of us (except for Christ, Whom Father sent), it is our obedience to God and His Law (which is what defines what is right/good/lawful and what is wrong/evil/sinful in God's Eyes) that determines the amount of the Holy Spirit one receives.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the Truth of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

The more faith (trust in God) one has, the more one desires to rid themselves of sin, to make room for Father's Holy Spirit. And of course good, Godly works goes hand-in-hand as a show of faith, which lets Father know we are walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

The more room one makes for the Holy Spirit, the more Father bestows it in measure. Not that any of us deserve this gracious and merciful gift after all the evil we've done, but that's how kind and generous Father really is.

It's therefore up to each individual to make room for the Holy Spirit, and the only way to do that is to repent/stop sinning/stop breaking The Law.

1 John 3:7-9
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Red Sky at Morning · Jul 3, 2020

Todd said:
Of course we can't earn salvation by works. But we can't earn it by faith either.

Subtle here - we can’t earn it by faith.

Of course we can’t. And yet why the emphasis on it all the way through the Bible. Faith leads to works, but we are saved by God’s unmerited favour, appropriated by faith in Jesus, by God’s grace, through faith.

There is no plan B. We are offered today, not promised tomorrow, and our choices will set our eternal destiny whether we like it that way or not.

Todd · Jul 9, 2020

Red Sky at Morning said:
Subtle here - we can’t earn it by faith.

Of course we can’t. And yet why the emphasis on it all the way through the Bible. Faith leads to works, but we are saved by God’s unmerited favour, appropriated by faith in Jesus, by God’s grace, through faith.

There is no plan B. We are offered today, not promised tomorrow, and our choices will set our eternal destiny whether we like it that way or not.

Where is the Bible evidence for your last statement? What scripture specifically say nothing is promised tomorrow and that our eternal destiny is set by our choices? The only thing I see scripture saying is detemined by our choices is our condition in this presenet fallen world. The wages of sin is death. We are all going to die. The bible doesn't say the wages of sin is an eternal fate in either heaven or hell. Again you are confusing salvation with the escape from eternal punishment instead of salvation being the delieverance from the power of sin in the here and now.

Alanantic · Jul 10, 2020

Has anybody asked themselves what is this salvation I'm trying to earn? Is it happiness forever in some heaven? Is it to idolize forever that great big "Celebrity in the Sky" called God? Those don't seem like worthwhile goals for a human being.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -- Marcus Aurelius

Lyfe · Jul 10, 2020

Alanantic said:
Has anybody asked themselves what is this salvation I'm trying to earn? Is it happiness forever in some heaven? Is it to idolize forever that great big "Celebrity in the Sky" called God? Those don't seem like worthwhile goals for a human being.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -- Marcus Aurelius

What are worthwhile human goals?

Alanantic · Jul 10, 2020

Lyfe said:
What are worthwhile human goals?

Live a good life! And, all that implies.

pescatarian09 · Jul 10, 2020

Alanantic said:
Live a good life! And, all that implies.

What is 'good'?

Alanantic · Jul 10, 2020

pescatarian09 said:
What is 'good'?

You people are asking these questions like you really don't know the answers!

pescatarian09 · Jul 10, 2020

Alanantic said:
You people are asking these questions like you really don't know the answers!

If your sole rule in life was 'live a good life,' what would 'good' mean? What's at stake here is way an individual lives their life. So we can't be vague. We've got to define what 'good' means. The way one person defines 'good' might be different to how another person defines it. When you mean good, do you mean 'do no harm'?

Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

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