Lisa
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2017
- Messages
- 20,288
1.) The thing is you think you know what it all means..yet your don’t. You have too much ’education’ in things to understand that not all things like the quran go with the Bible.ok this will be fun.
1) No, I ignored a lot of what you posted because you are actually clueless when it comes to understanding the Bible. You see only what you want to see and nothing else.
your opinion isnt worth a penny though Lisa. you're known for being a poor poster on here with the dumbest views.
if i only see what i want to see, why do i , as a muslim, believe in the crucifixion and in the bible, when other muslims don't? how does that work? don't say this dumb sh1t to me.
all ive done here, is presented a defence of Ishmael and his side of the story which you've ignored.
furthermore, i spoke about how the Napthali lost tribe becamw the white huns/hepthalites who conquered india, became rajputs..and how that's even my own caste. I have no need to claim to be 'israelite' or a 'lost tribe' btw, but im pointing that out because you want to fangirl Sarah in a 'sarah vs hagar' context while i probably have more claim to HER than you do. you've attacked hagar..and i'm someone who's impartial and honest enough to want to support both. likewise in the Quran, Ishmael and Isaac are both special for different reasons.
in Genesis is very specifically says
Sarah MISTREATED Hagar.
i quoted that. you have proof.
you basically mocked Hagar.
It very specifically says Ishmael is BLESSED and yet you mocked him by saying 'he not part of da covenant tho'..
even though you're wrong on that...the fact that you still had it in you to try taking the piss out of him despite him being blessed, shows again why you're a demonic little sh1t. So biased and disgusting with your views. it's no wonder Jesus wants nothing to do with you.
2)
why would you refer to ishmael's 'hand against everyone' in the context of muslim immigration into the west, even though said immigration is only a consequence of colonialism and 2 WORLD WARS fought by those colonialists?
muslims never killed so many people as those colonialists, how many died in those 2 world wars? bolshevism, the holocoast etc?..and yet you're on about muslims and ignoring the Beast system itself...because you're a xtian.
pathetic.
'arent muslims against others/against each other'
and christians are better? you're far worse. the history of the catholic protestant divide led to the entire age of colonialism...
3)
you're misquoting genesis between 2 different covenants and their different contexts.
there is an everlasting covenant with Abraham directly..and an everlasting covenant with Isaac.
ill follow this up with direct quotes and contexts...but again let me just emphasise this..
the covenant with Abraham, is the covenant of the flesh (the circumcision).
tell me, if the entire story of isaac, is meant to be fulfilled through JESUS...how is it that your religion is NOT about the circumcision/covenant of the flesh but the covenant of the spirit?
so let's go back to Genesis
according to Genesis 17
“I will establish My covenant (everlasting promise) between Me and you,
And I will multiply you exceedingly [through your descendants].”
As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And [as a result] you shall be the father of many nations.
“As for you [your part of the agreement], you shall keep and faithfully obey [the terms of] My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is [the sign of] My covenant, which you shall keep and faithfully obey, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be the sign (symbol, memorial) of the covenant between Me and you. 1
My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”
tell me, if one were a christian and from the jewish bloodline, would that person be circumcised?
that person would be cut off from the covenant with ABRAHAM, the covenant of the FLESH.
now..after this, there is a shift..the story changes. it's now about Sarah.
15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai (my princess), but her name will be Sarah (Princess). 16 I will bless her, and indeed I will also give you a son by her. Yes, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael [my firstborn] might live before You!” 19 But God said, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son indeed, and you shall name him Isaac (laughter); and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him.
this is a seperate everlasting covenant, with ISAAC. God emphasises this further by saying it is specifically only for Isaac, not ishmael eg
21 But My covenant [My promise, My solemn pledge], I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this time next year.”
this has nothing to do with the covenant with Abraham of the flesh. Nowhere here, is the covenant with Isaac to be confused with the 'covenant of the flesh'.
what follows from this?
23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were purchased with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin the very same day, as God had said to him.
get it? Ishmael was part of the covenant of the flesh, circumcised. it emphasises ishmael here to prove that he's part of the original everlasting covenant of the flesh.
The covenanent with isaac is later broken down into further covenants later..and ends up with Jesus Christ/the new testament. Ultimately leading to the UNCIRCUMISION..which is proof that this is a seperate context, seperate covenant and is not related to the covenant with Abraham.
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham, and remember the land.
different covenants.
so let's go deeper. what was the covenant with Jacob, that made it different to the covenant with Isaac?
Jacob's Contract with God | My Jewish Learning
Vayetze Covenant. Vayetze Commentary. Vayetze Text Study. Weekly Torah Commentary. Parshat Hashavua. Jewish Textswww.myjewishlearning.com
see it's like this
the covenant of the flesh given to Abraham, was a covenant making him the father of many nations. this includes anyone who is circumcised and shares the belief of Abraham..and it applies to ALL circumcised muslims!!! We know he was to circumcise even his slaves, so anyone belonging to him even as a slave was part of this.
the covenant with ISAAC is not connected to the circumcision. It goes on even through Jesus and so the true Christians who are uncircumcised in the flesh, are yet part of this. THAT is why with isaac, it also said
Yes, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations;
covenant with Jacob, that is specific for only Jacob and is about the 12 tribes of israel. it is specific to a bloodline.
he's even told " You shall not marry one of the women of Canaan. "
3 May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, so that you may become a [great] company of peoples.
notice it doesnt say 'father/mother of many nations' where it concerns JACOB?
in fact, you referred to romans 9. in fact this completely supports my argument
Romans 9
However, it is not as though God’s word has failed [coming to nothing]. For not all who are descended from Israel (Jacob) are [the true] Israel; 7 and they are not all the children of Abraham because they are his descendants [by blood], but [the promise was]: “Your descendants will be named through Isaac” [though Abraham had other sons]. 8 That is, it is not the children of the body [Abraham’s natural descendants] who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are counted as [Abraham’s true] descendants.
it's like this
God's covenant with Abraham of the flesh is for many nations.
God's covenant with Isaac of the spirit, is for many nations
God's covenant with Jacob is for 12 tribes specifically.
here, paul points not to the covenant with Jacob, but the covenant with Isaac specifically
i have never had a problem accepting that the covenant of isaac, is fulfilled through JESUS CHRIST and is higher than the covenant of the flesh. the key difference is ive never tried to attack Isaac or Jacob, as you have Ishmael.
Ishmael was not only blessed, he was connected to Abraham's flesh covenant..which is also an everlasting covenant.
in fact, the covenant with Isaac, which is of the spirit, does not exclude muslims, just as there were prophets/saints from Jacob, who were circumcised, yet also within Isaac's covenant.
this is something of spiritual weight that only God knows the measure of. HOWEVER i am totally comitted to Jesus here, in that i know it is 'through Jesus'. However this extends to islam on the basis that islam believes in Jesus.
in fact, we believe in Jesus for who he was, the Word made Flesh and the Messiah, whereas you only pay lip service and instead worship a white hellenistic mangod of the roman empire.
i will say that your sort of xtians, will easily say that the catholicds are satanic..yet you follow the nicene creed..and no one in the NT specifically gave the nicene creed...not those specific words, in that specific order with that specific interpretation.
this isnt even subjective, it is a fact. If the nicene creed was the single biggest truth of Christianity, then Jesus or Paul would have given it in those exact words. However it came centuries later from the roman church.
As such, you belong with the roman church.
You even said 'i dont only pray on sundays' to sidestep the fact that your church and all xtian churches have chosen SUN DAY.
sorry but this pagan xtianity with the pagan xmas and easter, is too far removed from isaac.
in fact i will again go back to Isaac to get more evidence of the above points.
what is specifically different about isaac? what set Isaac apart from Abraham and Jacob?
isaac was the example of God's REWARD/GRACE. It wasnt earned..it was given.
Even jacob had to earn his reward by tricking Esau...but Isaac was given to Sarah in her old age as a miracle.
since Paul takes the covenant with isaac and applies this specifically to not just the jewish bloodline, but to all people joinedthrough Jesus?
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.” 16 So then God’s choice is not dependent on human will, nor on human effort [the totality of human striving], but on God who shows mercy [to whomever He chooses—it is His sovereign gift]. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I raised you up for this very purpose, to display My power in [dealing with] you, and so that My name would be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
so how can this also not apply to muslims? i mean this is only in a post Jesus context, i accept that, that isaac's covenant is fulfilled through Jesus specifically.
i have a big claim against you..i say you have no connection to Jesus on account of blatant polythiesm through the roman church. you say the roman church is satanic, yet follow their innovations and false belief system eg the trinitarian doctrine.
if you read isaiah 42, it is only in the post Jesus context, the new song prophecy could be fulfilled..hence Jesus is responsible even for islam.
this is proven by John 16, where Jesus said HE will send the comforter/holy spirit to 'teach you ALL the truth..and tell you what is to come'
and this is fulfilled through the Quran and the prophethood of Mohammad.
this doesnt exclude the covenant with Abraham and Jacob...even Jesus was circumcised and part of those covenants too.
likewise if muslims have a connection to Abraham by circumcision, that doesnt mean they dont also have a connection to Jesus.
“I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion.”
in every chapter of the Quran except one, it begins with these words
In the name of Allah, The Merciful and Compassionate.
Al-Rahman and Al-Raheem
Rahma is Mercy. Raheem is the bestowing of Mercy.
The Bible is a fan girl of Sarah itself. The slave woman was sent away and God approved that. It wasn’t Ishmael who was the child of promise...Sarah and Abraham did it wrong..they didn’t wait on God and thought they had to do it themselves..which ended up being a big problem with Hagar and Ishmael. If they had just waited on God..no Ishmael and the problem of Hagar and Ishmael wouldn’t exist.
You missed the part where Hagar despised her mistress..
Genesis 16:4
He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.
He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.
And what in the end got them sent away..
Genesis 21:9-10
Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.”
Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.”
And God agreed...Because Ishmael wasn’t the child of promise..nor part of the covenant.
Genesis 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
2.) Because everywhere the muslim immigrants go..they don’t get along with the locals and bring lawlessness to those places increasing in violence against the locals and especially against women.
I’m not sure how you can bring the catholic Protestant divide into this..what does that have to do with anything really?
3.) Sure Abraham circumcised Ishmael..he would circumcise his son..but that doesn’t mean that Ishmael was part of the covenant. It means that Abraham obeyed God and circumcised everyone. Issac and only Issac was the child of promise..the child that God would give to Abraham and Sarah in their old age..and that’s the only child that the covenant goes through and Ishmael wasn’t a part of it.
Genesis 17:15-19
Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ” And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”
Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ” And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”
4.) Sure..all muslims..anyone in the world can come to God and be grafted into the covenant with God..be Abraham’s offspring thought the blood of the only begotten Son, Jesus..you have to go through Jesus and no one else...not muhammad or allah. Just Jesus.
5.) Satan is responsible for islam and not God.
