The Rapture

Daciple

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Do you believe that believers of Christ will face judgement since God had thrown our sins as far as the east is from the west?
I do not believe that we will face Judgement for Sins, but it is hard to deny that we will have our works tested to see if we gain or lose reward in Heaven. However I have seen people that believe that this verse is speaking about being tried on Earth and blessings or loss of blessings we have here, which makes sense as well. It was quoted earlier by Red I believe concerning the Bema Seat of Christ.

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Church God led me too doesnt believe that this is referring to a Judgement after Death for Christians, they believe that it is concerning our life now and that our works are tested to see if they are built on Christ here and the fire would be considered the trials and tribulations we endure. If the works we have are built on Christ then we would receive the reward in the form of blessings, peace, joy ect, if they arent built on Christ then the work would be burned up in the trial but we ourselves wont lose our Salvation.

I spoke to my Pastor about this, and one thing he said which is rather simple and blunt is, do you believe that Heaven is Perfect? Of course the answer is yes, so he then said, how can you get any better or worse than Perfect?

I understand other concepts surrounding how Heaven will be, but at the end of the day it is hard to go against that simple explanation, Heaven in Perfect for everyone there so what on Earth can we consider loss in Perfection? So I will leave it up to everyone to mull that over and decide for themselves how they believe Heaven will be...

Also i find it interesting that you don't believe in any rapture at all. I have never heard that idea before.
So it depends on what you consider a "Rapture". I do believe that when Christ comes all of us who are alive will be taken and translated at that time, Scripture is clear this will happen.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I just believe that this happens when He comes back as a single event and not multiple events like most people break this up into, and it definitely isnt broke up by years upon years upon years...

SO things will crumble apart and Jesus will come and have war with the devil. Or do you believe in Armagedeon at all?
I dont think there will be a war as people view it in most modern thought, this is Jesus who is God and Creator of all things, does He have to have a war? Christ can speak and things are, so when He comes back if there is a Physical Antichrist, then he along with all the other unsaved people will face His Wrath which culminates in what I showed, the Earth and everything in it being destroyed all together.

As for Armageddon and my view on much of the current thought on End Times, I believe that it could be a literal thing but most of Scripture is to be viewed as Spiritual and that is how the Apostles viewed Scripture and Prophetic Fulfillment and how the Church has viewed it for thousands of years. Therefore I dont marry myself to a Literal Fulfillment of these Prophecies and by that I mean this, those who are Pre Mil and Pre Trib they have taken a position that certain events have to take place in a certain order.

There has to be a Physical Anti Christ, there has to be a 3rd Temple, there has to be a Rapture, there has to be 7 year Tribulation, there has to be 3.5 yr Peace, 3.5 yr War, ect ect ect. There are things that have to happen in a specific order, I personally dont think anything really needs to happen before Christ comes back.

I believe Christ can come back today or tomorrow, my or your or anyones view on End Times doesnt prevent His Coming, however I can also see that there probably will be certain events that will transpire before He comes back. I would have to agree with Todd in the aspect that we really cant know how Prophecy is to play out until after it happens.

Absolutely no one on Earth knew or understood Jesus 1st Advent so the likelihood of us really understanding the 2nd Advent is just as unlikely. With that said, I believe unless Christ comes, there will be a time where Christians will be persecuted by a or many World Leader in a New World Order system. If there is a Tribulation above and beyond what we have been experiencing since Christ Ascended, then I believe that for sure the Church will experience.

I do not in any way believe that the Church is "Raptured" before any Tribulation Events occur, Scripture is clear that we will endure persecution and people have to cherry pick and ignore Scripture to make that idea fit their belief systems. The Church will be persecuted and Christ comes back to save us from the persecution. If the Church is raptured and doesnt go thru a Tribulation or Persecution in the idea of an End Times Scenario (that is, if you dont believe that we have been in this Tribulation since Christs Ascension ) then this type of verse and the structure of most of Pauls writings concerning the "Rapture" doesnt make any sense:

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened
.

No need to shorten the Tribulation if the elect aka the Church isnt here, so again if I take these verses literal I would have to say that there will come a time when the Church will be persecuted and go thru a Tribulation by what we would call the AntiChrist and at some point Christ will come back, "Rapture" us and then proceed to pour out His Wrath on the unbelieving world...

Do you believe that people will have to take the mark of the beast?
So again it is all about if you interpret these things literally or spiritually, tell me was this literal or spiritual?

Ez 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

There is a whole lot we could unpack from this Scripture but what I want to know from everyone is, was there a literal person, with a literal ink horn, that literally put literal marks on the literal forehead of the literal people?

If we can take this verse as Spiritual and I personally believe that is what is meant, I dont think a literal man in white held a literal ink horn and literally went and put literal marks of ink on literal foreheads, I think the man in white is Christ and He went thru the city and Spiritually marked "in the forehead" aka as a sign of possession, those who had been crying out against the evil in the land. If we take this as Spiritual, then who is to say that Revelations that speaks of essentially the same thing but in reverse (instead of the Righteous being marked, the Evil are marked ) is not to be understood as Spiritual?

So if we take it Spiritual vs Literal then we comprehend the entire Prophecy completely differently. If I take it Literal then I would have to say yes there would be a Mark that people have to take during the Tribulation. If I take it Spiritual and understand that we are and have been living in End Times or Last Days according to Scripture since Christ Ascended:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
;

And that we have been in Tribulation since that time, then the Mark of the Beast would represent all those who are not Born Again just as the Mark in the OT verses represented those who were saved.

So yes I believe in a Mark of the Beast, whether it be Literal or Spiritual...
 

Dalit

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Ez 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
Here's a possible companion passage.

Revelation 7:1-8 New International Version (NIV)
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
New International Version (NIV)
Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
 

Thunderian

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I am not sure where the term came from, but no one calls it a "secret" Rapture except people who don't know anything about it. Maybe someone who keeps using the term can explain what they mean when they call it a secret.

The pre-tribulation position is that, at any moment, all believers in Jesus Christ will be caught up into the air to be with him. That doesn't seem like something that could be kept secret. I imagine that people will start noticing that all the Christians have suddenly disappeared, and eventually, someone will remember this thread.

Something else that I feel needs clarification is the idea that pre-tribbers believe that only really good Christians, or maybe only those who believe in the Rapture, will actually get raptured. Stop thinking that. Everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit will be caught up, and that includes all the dead Christians, too. The net effect is that there will not be a single believer left on earth. The Rapture is the moment that the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. It is the end of the Church age, and the resumption of God's judgement of Israel.

The Rapture is not about saving believers from the Tribulation. The Rapture is about clearing the decks of all believers, because a new dispensation of salvation is beginning.
 

TokiEl

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The rapture is at the last trump.

The church age or times of the Gentiles was over in 1967 when the Jews restored control over Jerusalem.

And the fullness of the Gentiles is the specific number of martyrs mentioned in the 5th seal.

Christians will be rounded up into concentration camps most likely during a blackout. And when the power comes back on the government's explanation for the missing christians will be... rapture.
 

TokiEl

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What was the first trump?
There are 7 trumpets in the book of Revelation.

The last trump is the 7th trump.


It's no coincidence that there is a Trump on the world stage at this time since we are very close to the endtime events foretold long ago in the book of Revelation. Prepare for persecution. It's glorious !
 

phipps

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Will Christ Return in Two Phases?

The dispensationalists teach that the two separate stages of Christ's coming are indicated "in the Greek." They argue that there will first be the rapture (parousia), a secret coming; then seven years later will be the revelation (apokalupsis), His coming in power and glory. But, actually, instead of teaching two separate events, the Greek terms are used interchangeably in the Bible. They give no indication of a seven-year interval.

For example, Paul uses the word "parousia" in the famous rapture chapter of 1 Thessalonians 4 in speaking of the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him. He then goes right on to show that this "parousia" will destroy the man of sin. Speaking of the Antichrist, Paul says, "whom the Lord shall ... destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). These texts clearly describe the coming (parousia) of Christ as taking place after the reign of the man of sin, not as an escape rapture before the reign of the Antichrist begins.

The other Greek word "apokalupsis" (revelation) is used in a way that indicates it is not a separate coming from the time the believers are gathered up. Peter said to "be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation [apokalupsis] of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). Why would Christians be exhorted to keep hoping to the very end of the world for the grace brought through the revelation of Christ if their real hope was a secret rapture seven years before the revelation?

Now look at some verses that prove beyond a doubt that the two words "parousia" and "apokalupsis" refer to the same event. In Matthew 24:37 we read, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [parousia] of the Son of man be." Luke's account of the same passage says "As it was in the days of Noe ... Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [apokalupsis]" (Luke 17:26, 30). This shows that the coming (parousia) of Christ and the revelation (apokalupsis) of Christ are the same event. There is absolutely no basis for placing seven years in between.

Many dispensationalist teachers actually claim that the rapture is not really the "coming" of Jesus at all. They say His coming is when Christ returns in power seven years after the rapture. But what a contradictory, confusing explanation that is! The fact is that there are many Scriptures that admonish Christians to wait and watch for the coming of the Lord. For example, James 5:7 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord." But why should Christians need to be patient unto the coming of the Lord if there is to be a secret rapture to take them to heaven seven years before His coming?

Strange as it may seem, this whole counterfeit secret rapture is built upon a constant repetition of words and ideas that are not found in the Bible at all. But they have been repeated so often that millions have assumed that they must be soundly biblical. Let's take a look at some of the texts that have been used to support the doctrine of a two-phase coming of Christ. And please notice that none of the verses actually say what some try to read into them. In fact, it is only after a person has already assumed that Christ will return in two separate comings that these verses could even suggest the idea.

Revelation 3:10 is often quoted to try to prove that the righteous will be taken out of the world before the tribulation. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." It is immediately obvious that this text does not speak of the righteous leaving this world at all. Jesus completely clarified the meaning by something He said in John 17:6, 15 which sounds very similar. "They have kept thy word. O I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." Don't miss the significance of the term "kept the word" in both these texts. Both statements are talking about the same group of people - the faithful ones.

Now if those who "kept the word" can be "kept from the evil" of the world without being taken out of the world, why should we suppose that a special coming and secret rapture is required for those who "kept the word" to be "kept from the hour of temptation"? Whatever else may be taught in Revelation 3: 10, it is evident that no extra coming of Christ is indicated.

True biblical doctrine must be based upon clear statements of what the entire Bible teaches on a subject and not upon verses that offer only veiled inferences. Luke 21:36 is an example of that very thing. Jesus said to His disciples, "Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass." How? By a secret rapture to take them to heaven seven years before the end of the world? Definitely not, for in the prayer of Jesus we read, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." When He told them to "pray ... to escape," He must have meant the same as when He prayed, "I pray not ... take them out of the world but ... keep them." This rules out a secret rapture entirely. The text that is used to prove the rapture is seen actually to forbid the saints being taken out of this world during the time of trouble.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-...ret-rapture#Will-Christ-Return-in-Two-Phases-
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Zechariah 9 seems to have been an overlooked passage when it comes to the blowing of tumpets, particularly as it seems to be the one other place apart from Thessalonians where the Lord blows the trumpet...

God Will Save His People
11 “As for you also,
Because of the blood of your covenant,
I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.
12 Return to the stronghold,
You prisoners of hope.
Even today I declare
That I will restore double to you.
13 For I have bent Judah, My bow,
Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion,
Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”

14 Then the Lord will be seen over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning.
The Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And go with whirlwinds from the south.
15 The Lord of hosts will defend them;
They shall devour and subdue with slingstones.
They shall drink and roar as if with wine;
They shall be filled with blood like basins,
Like the corners of the altar.
16 The Lord their God will save them in that day,
As the flock of His people.
For they shall be like the jewels of a crown,
Lifted like a banner over His land—
17 For how great is its goodness
And how great its beauty!
Grain shall make the young men thrive,
And new wine the young women.

This observation is unpacked further below...

 

phipps

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When Does the Antichrist Appear?

Now we are brought to focus on the most glaring inconsistency of the rapture theory, and that is that the Antichrist will not appear until after the saints are caught away - seven years before the end of the world. Paul settles the entire matter for us in the first few verses of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of our gathering together unto Him] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (vs. 1-4).

The words of Paul are so plain that it is difficult to comment on them. How can they be plainer? Christ's coming will not take place "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." Show these words to any child who has learned to read; show them to anyone not prejudiced by "private" interpretations, and he will say, "These verses say that the man of sin (Antichrist) is going to be revealed before Jesus comes."

Paul is not referring to some superman suddenly to appear 2,000 years after his epistles. He wrote, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 7). While Paul lived, he combated the emerging spirit of the Antichrist. By the sixth century A.D., Antichrist had matured. The crowning act in the great drama of deception, however, occurs just before the return of Christ: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."' Verse 8. This clearly states that Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ comes. He does not arrive after the Second Advent.

And here's the crowning clarification in this whole thing. Revelation 20:4 assures us that some of those who are raised in the first resurrection will be those who refused to worship the beast and receive his mark! How completely this demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation is evident, for they claim that the emergence of the Antichrist and the imposition of his mark are to be looked for after the first resurrection and what they call the secret rapture. Recently a radio preacher expressed this belief: "I don't expect to be here when the beast is enforcing his mark upon the people. I expect to go up in the rapture and be in heaven during the great tribulation time." But these verses declare that some of those who come up in the "first resurrection," when Christ comes the second time, have already refused to worship the Antichrist or receive his mark! Thus, the Antichrist must have already been on the stage of action carrying on his oppressive work before the "first resurrection" and well before the second coming of Jesus.

Without attempting to establish the identity of Antichrist at this point, let us notice how this teaching - that the Antichrist will come in the future - originated. At the time of the Reformation, most of the reformers understood the prophecy of the Antichrist to refer to the great apostate system of Romanism that developed during the Middle Ages. Of course, Rome did not appreciate this interpretation. Please notice Rome's course of action to nullify this interpretation: "So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist.

"Accordingly, toward the close of the century of the Reformation, two of the most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the papal system. The Jesuit Alcazar devoted himself to bring into prominence the preterist method of interpretation, ... and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the popes ever ruled in Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy.

"On the other hand, the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the papal power by bringing out the futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly, not to the career of the Papacy, but to some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the founder of the futurist system of modern times.

"It is a matter for deep regret that those who advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist."

Thus, the whole theory of the secret rapture with its future Antichrist had its origin with the Jesuits in an attempt to take the blame off the Papacy.

The origin of the two-phase coming of Christ has an equally unsavory history. It was not until around the year 1830 that this view began to be taught. In the Scottish church pastored by Edward Irving, a Miss Margaret McDonald gave what was believed at the time to be an inspired utterance. She spoke of the visible, open, and glorious second coming of Christ. But as the utterance continued, she spoke of another coming of Christ - a secret and special coming in which those who were truly ready would be raptured.

However, it was John Nelson Darby - Brethren preacher and diligent writer of the time in England - who was largely responsible for introducing this new teaching on a large scale. The teaching spread to the United States in the 1850s and 1860s, where it was to receive its biggest boost when Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, a strong believer in Darby's teachings, incorporated it into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was published in 1909. Since that time, this view has been widely accepted - often by people who are completely unaware that this was not the belief held by Christians over the centuries. Many fine Christians hold his view today who have never questioned its authority.

Oswald Smith, noted minister and author of Toronto, says in his booklet Tribulation or Rapture - Which? that he once held the two-stage teaching, but that when he began to search the Scriptures for himself, he discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible to uphold this view. He confessed: "I had been taught that the Greek word 'parousia' always referred to the Rapture and that other words were used for the coming of Christ in glory ... but I found that this is not true. ... We might go through all the writers of the New Testament, and we would fail to discover any indication of the so-called 'two stages' of our Lord's coming ... That theory had to be invented by man. Search and see. There is no verse in the Bible that even mentions it."

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/74/t/the-secret-rapture#Will-Christ-Return-in-Two-Phases-
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The same one who blew the trumpet in Exodus 19, I think.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

Types and shadows??
 

phipps

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The Seven-Year Tribulation

Since so much rapturist theology revolves around the seven-year period, one would assume that the Bible must speak frequently of such a time period. But not so. There is not one single scriptural reference that ties the seven years to the end of the world or the coming of Christ. Most rapturist literature mentions the seven-year tribulation period without offering any Bible proof or explanation. Millions have assumed that it must be so well documented that no proof is needed. In fact, the opposite is true. There just isn't any evidence to give.

Most Bible students are amazed to learn that the rapturists try to justify their seven years by lifting a prophecy of Daniel completely out of its context. In Daniel 9:24-27 God made a daring prophecy concerning the probation of the nation of Israel. He said to Daniel, "Seventy weeks ['weeks of years' RSV] are determined upon thy people ... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins" (v. 24). Please notice that God was going to allow Daniel's people seventy weeks to see what they would do with the Messiah when He appeared. The seventy weeks are prophetic time, and each day represents a literal year (Ezekiel 4:6). So the seventy weeks would be a literal period of 490 years, after which the Israelites would no longer be God's people. They would be rejected as a nation because of their rejection of the Messiah.

Don't miss the point in Daniel 9:25 that the prophecy of the seventy weeks was to begin with the decree to restore and build Jerusalem. That well-known date is 457 B.C., when Artaxerxes sent out the decree (Ezra 7:13). From that date, 457 B.C., the Jews would have exactly 490 years to finish filling up their cup of iniquity by rejecting the Messiah. That 490-year probation ended in A.D. 34, and the Jews ceased to be God's chosen people. Daniel 9:25 says that the Messiah would be anointed after sixty-nine of those prophetic weeks had passed by. That would be 483 years from the decree date of 457 B.C. It takes no mathematician to figure the end of that prediction. It brings us to the year A.D. 27, the very year that Jesus was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit anointed Him for His ministry. Since "Messiah" means "Anointed One," this had to be the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would appear in A.D 27.

Now mark this fact: seventy weeks were assigned to the Jewish probation, but Christ appeared as the Messiah after sixty-nine weeks. That leaves the seventieth week for Christ to minister before the Jews' probation ended. What was to happen in the seventieth week? Daniel 9:27 tells us, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

The midst of the week would be three and a half prophetic days (literal years) from His baptism. And according to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years. In the spring of A.D. 31 He was crucified. The veil of the temple was rent (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. By His death He caused them to cease. Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples labored largely for the Jews. But in A.D. 34 the seventy weeks ended; Stephen was stoned and the gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). The Jews had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God's people - just as Daniel had predicted. Henceforth they could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation, they had been rejected as the chosen people. Here is the way the Bible describes that rejection:

Matthew21:43 "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you."

Matthew 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (The fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation.)

Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Romans 9:6-8 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children; but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are ... the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (The New Testament teaches the acceptance of spiritual Israel, and the rejection of physical Israel and the children of the flesh.)

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter."

Acts 13:46 "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

The rapturists get their seven years' tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy completely out of its context and shoving it far into the future. They claim it will be fulfilled after Christ comes to snatch away the righteous secretly. Incredible? Absolutely! But they must grasp desperately for some text to support their seven years. They agree that the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel 9:25 refer to the period before Christ's first advent, but then they insert a 2,000-year gap before the seventieth week is fulfilled. They allot 69 weeks plus 2,000 years plus one week, or a total of 2,490 years. By this devious manipulation of God's Word, the rapturists believe they have extended the Jewish probation; and based upon this, they teach that all the fleshly Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the "secret rapture" takes place.

The tragedy of the rapture theory is that it takes these beautiful verses of Daniel 9:24-27 that predict the coming of Jesus, His baptism and crucifixion, and apply them to Antichrist. They do this by stating that it is Antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and one-half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done, and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic occurrence. And yet this is the only way one can arrive at a seven-year tribulation period. How sad!

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/74/t/the-secret-rapture


Why do some Bible interpreters detach the last week (or seven years) of the 490 years allotted to the Jewish nation and apply it to the antichrist’s work at the end of earth’s history?


Answer: Let us review the facts:

A. There is no warrant or evidence for inserting a gap between any of the years of the 490-year prophecy. It is continuous, as were the 70 years of exile for God’s people mentioned in Daniel 9:2.

B. Never in Scripture is a number of time units (days, weeks, months, years) anything other than continuous. Thus, the burden of proof is on those who claim that any part of any time prophecy should be detached and counted later.

C. ad 27 (the year of Jesus’ baptism) was the starting date for the last seven years of the prophecy, which Jesus emphasized by preaching immediately, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15).

D. At the moment of His death in the spring of ad 31, Jesus cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The Saviour here was clearly referring to the predictions of His death made in Daniel chapter 9:

1. “Messiah” would be “cut off” (verse 26).

2. He would “bring an end to sacrifice and offering (verse 27), dying as the true Lamb of God (1 Corinthians 5:7; 15:3).

3. He would "make reconciliation for iniquity" (verse 24).

4. He would die in “the middle of the week” (verse 27).

There is simply no biblical reason to detach the last seven years (prophetic week) of the 490 years. Indeed, detaching the last seven years from the 490-year prophecy so distorts the true meaning of many prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelation that people cannot correctly understand them. Even worse, the seven-year gap theory is leading people astray!
 
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Thunderian

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Here's a few more examples of the Christian expectation of a restored Israel from several hundred years before it became fact. The whole article is a good read.

Contrary to accounts that revolve around fire and brimstone preachers like Falwell, John Hagee, or the pop-apocalyptic writer Hal Lindsey, the idea that English-speaking Christians have a special responsibility to promote, support, and protect a Jewish state in some portion of the biblical holy land goes back at least to the beginnings of the 17th century. In a 1611 work titled Revelation of the Revelation, the English scholar Thomas Brightman asked, “What shall they [the Jews] returne to Ierusalem againe? There is nothing more certaine, the Prophets doe euery where directly confirme it and beate vppon it.” Ten years later, the prominent lawyer Henry Finch insisted that “[W]ee need not be afraid to averre and mainteyne, that one day they shall come to Jerusalem againe, be Kings and chiefe Monarches of the earth, sway and govern all, for the glory of Christ that shall shine among them.”
People used to take the Bible literally, and one of the things the Bible literally says is that Israel would be gathered and become a nation again. Unfortunately, taking God's word in a literal way began to fall out of fashion a couple hundred years ago, then a new, Alexandrian version of the Bible began to spread, and the next thing you know it's, "Hey! We're all Israel."

And even when you take someone and lead them by the hand to the parts of the Bible where it's prophesied that all this would happen, they are somehow still able to deny that everything else is going to come true, too. That's willing blindness. There can be no greater example anywhere in history of fulfilled prophecy than the state of Israel existing, but there are people, Christians even, who won't accept the truth.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Mar 15, 2017
Messages
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Here's a few more examples of the Christian expectation of a restored Israel from several hundred years before it became fact. The whole article is a good read.

Contrary to accounts that revolve around fire and brimstone preachers like Falwell, John Hagee, or the pop-apocalyptic writer Hal Lindsey, the idea that English-speaking Christians have a special responsibility to promote, support, and protect a Jewish state in some portion of the biblical holy land goes back at least to the beginnings of the 17th century. In a 1611 work titled Revelation of the Revelation, the English scholar Thomas Brightman asked, “What shall they [the Jews] returne to Ierusalem againe? There is nothing more certaine, the Prophets doe euery where directly confirme it and beate vppon it.” Ten years later, the prominent lawyer Henry Finch insisted that “[W]ee need not be afraid to averre and mainteyne, that one day they shall come to Jerusalem againe, be Kings and chiefe Monarches of the earth, sway and govern all, for the glory of Christ that shall shine among them.”

People used to take the Bible literally, and one of the things the Bible literally says is that Israel would be gathered and become a nation again. Unfortunately, taking God's word in a literal way began to fall out of fashion a couple hundred years ago, then a new, Alexandrian version of the Bible began to spread, and the next thing you know it's, "Hey! We're all Israel."

And even when you take someone and lead them by the hand to the parts of the Bible where it's prophesied that all this would happen, they are somehow still able to deny that everything else is going to come true, too. That's willing blindness. There can be no greater example anywhere in history of fulfilled prophecy than the state of Israel existing, but there are people, Christians even, who won't accept the truth.
One thing became very obvious to me last time I visited the opticians. Things can either come into sharp focus or be unintelligible depending on what lens you are looking through.
 

TokiEl

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12 000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel... 144 000 holy and blameless Christians will be sealed by God before His wrath.

The rest will be persecuted as the Script clearly states in Rev 12:17 and Rev 20:4.
 
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