The Rapture

Red Sky at Morning

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I believe in pre trib as well. I am not studied in it as you are, but I do believe it will be pre trib. Do most christians you come across agree with you?
Most Christians at my local church are "Covenental" in outlook and if they take a view at all on the Rapture, they are pre-wrath, mid-trib or post-trib. I have heard lots of arguments against a pre-trib Rapture but, call me stubborn, I still think it's the right interpretation ;-)
 
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Yes, that is an interesting point. On that same token do you think that believers in Christ will face judgement in the end?
I do think that believers will face judgement.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10


But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
Mattthew 12:36
 

Todd

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I'm a pan-millenialist. No matter what anyone believes it's all going to pan out in the end!

I'm skeptical of all theories. If God meant for us to perfectly understand how it's all going to work out, it would be plain and simple in scripture. Since it's not, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if anyone thinks they have it all figured out, they are mostly likely all wrong.

The biggest problem I see is this idea that prophecies specifically and directly given to certain people/nations in ancient history are actually prophecies about the future. While there may be priniciples of the prophecy that can apply to many or any periods of history, I believe Christians have put too much stock in thinking every prophecy in the bible has some ultimate fullfillment in the very last days. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but the idea that we can predict how exactly it's going to happen is absurd. Christians take a lot of liberties and make alot of presuppositions to create theories about the end times and the second of coming of Christ that are not clearly and explicitily taught in scripture. No prophecy about Israel or the first coming of Christ, was fully understood before the fullfillment occured. Prophetic hindsight is 20/20 but specific predictions based on prophecitic scripture do not have a very good track record.

Many Christians make the presuppostion that the formation of the political state of Israel in 1948 was a major fullfillment of biblical prophecy. Whether it is or not, makes no difference for the point I'm about to make. How many Christian theologians, preachers and prophets predicted it would happen the way if did before it actually happened? I really don't know the answer to that question, but I have actually never seen any evidence that the church predicted or interpreted the events surrounding the creation of modern state of Israel before it happened. If it's possible to predict future events based on Bible prophecy how did the Chruch not predict it before it happened? How come we only realized what happened after the fact? And if in fact the Church did corectly predict it, why aren't we reminding the world of it as evidence that we truly know the one true God?

In the end, should it really change how we live our lives? Should our devotion to God be any different or how we love our neighbor be any different based on eschatology theories. What good fruit comes out of eschatology? If a teaching doesn't glorify God and point us to Christ, what really is the point in studying and teaching a theory as though it were fact?

I wasted a lot of good years trying to untangle the knotted web of eschatology. I've come the conclusion seeking God about what he wants me to do today and what issues of my heart he wants to expose and bring deliverance and healing to, is a much better use of my time.
 

Dalit

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I think one thing that informs a perspective on this is how you perceive God will deal with the Church and with Israel in his unfolding plan. Who Jesus is referring to in his statements, what is the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and to whom will this be preached, how the mystery of the Church fits into this picture and so on. Certainly more of an in-depth study than we have attempted on this forum, even among Christians in my time here.
And really I think as long as we are ready for the return of Jesus, that's what matters most. Pre-trib, post-trib, no trib...God the Father knows when Jesus is coming back and that's what matters most. We're to live each day like it could be any time now. Guess I'm just preparing for the worst until He does. :)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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And really I think as long as we are ready for the return of Jesus, that's what matters most. Pre-trib, post-trib, no trib...God the Father knows when Jesus is coming back and that's what matters most. We're to live each day like it could be any time now. Guess I'm just preparing for the worst until He does. :)
My grandmother used to say "fear the worst, hope for the best!". I don't think it was a statement of end-times belief but it seems quite apt!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Todd

You said something very interesting...

How many Christian theologians, preachers and prophets predicted it [Israel's re-establishment in 1948] would happen the way if did before it actually happened?
Did you ever notice that despite the numerous prophecies that had pointed to Jesus coming when and in the way which he did (e.g. Daniels prophecies etc), to many Jews, tradition and loss of expectation had made those prophecies opaque to them.

Only after the event did the messianic prophecies become clear to many. I suspect that it will the same way with respect to end-times events.
 

Thunderian

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I do think that believers will face judgement.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10


But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
Mattthew 12:36
If we are still to be judged for our sins, what did Jesus die for?
 

Thunderian

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How many Christian theologians, preachers and prophets predicted it would happen the way if did before it actually happened?
Tons of them, including Sir Isaac Newton in 1704.

In Newton’s day, the nation of Israel did not exist. Nevertheless as Newton studied end-time prophecy, he realized Israel’s restoration as a nation was a critical sign post to the end of the world.​
In his commentary on the Book of Revelation, Newton wrote, “the ruin of the wicked nations, the end of weeping and of all troubles, the return of the Jews (from) captivity and their setting up of a flourishing and everlasting kingdom.”​
“At that time is also predicted the end of the king of the North, the fall of the great Apostacy, the return of the Jewish captivity and the great tribulation…” he added.​
The other end-times writers of Newton’s day also believed Israel needed to be restored, but predicted it would happen within the 17th or 18th century. Newton based on his study said it would not happen until much later.​
Newton’s prediction, of course, proved true and the Jews were restored to the Promised Land two centuries later with the setting up of the nation of Israel on May 14, 1948.​

Another of my favourite prophecy teachers from back in the day, Sir Robert Anderson, wrote this, 125 or so years ago:

The main stream of prophecy runs in the channel of Hebrew history. This indeed is true of all revelation. The Scriptures teem with promises and prophecies in favor of that nation, not a tithe of which have yet been realized.​
The minds of most men are in bondage to the commonplace facts of their experience. The prophecies of a restored Israel seem to many as incredible as predictions of the present triumphs of electricity and steam would have appeared to our ancestors a century ago.​
While affecting independence in judging thus, the mind is only giving proof of its own impotence or ignorance. Moreover, the position which the Jews have held for eighteen centuries is a phenomenon which itself disposes of every seeming presumption against the fulfillment of these prophecies.​

And if in fact the Church did corectly predict it, why aren't we reminding the world of it as evidence that we truly know the one true God?
The Church didn't predict anything. The Bible did. It's still there, and it still stands. Just because people choose to ignore what it says, doesn't mean it hasn't been said.
 

phipps

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So you believe that living believers of Christ will have to go through the tribulation? Thank you for taking the time to use scriptural proof of you r beliefs. I find this fascinating
I do believe living Christians will go through the tribulation and the Bible says so too. You're welcome. It is fascinating and scary too I find.
 

TokiEl

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When the 6th seal breaks... the great tribulation begins which will last 3.5 years.

At that time 12 000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel will be sealed by God. Those are Christians and messianic Jews that are without spot and wrinkle... holy and blameless. The rest will be persecuted.

All will not be martyred but many.

And if you get to be beheaded for your faith in Jesus Christ... you will be the first to be resurrected and reign with Him for a thousand years on this old earth. And if your angelic body does not receive respect... you also got a rod of iron.

We will discipline not only the Millennials but all who wants to live ungodly on God's earth.
 
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Todd

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@Todd

You said something very interesting...



Did you ever notice that despite the numerous prophecies that had pointed to Jesus coming when and in the way which he did (e.g. Daniels prophecies etc), to many Jews, tradition and loss of expectation had made those prophecies opaque to them.

Only after the event did the messianic prophecies become clear to many. I suspect that it will the same way with respect to end-times events.
Yeah that was the whole point of my post LOL!

Prophecy is rarely understood before it’s fulfilled, so why do all these eschatology experts think they know what is going to happen?
 

Todd

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The Church didn't predict anything. The Bible did. It's still there, and it still stands. Just because people choose to ignore what it says, doesn't mean it hasn't been said.
Again, that was my whole point. Most eschatology teachers are making predictions and trying to make the Bible fit current events rather than just teaching what the Bible actually says.
 

Thunderian

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Again, that was my whole point. Most eschatology teachers are making predictions and trying to make the Bible fit current events rather than just teaching what the Bible actually says.
I think you missed the shank of my post. Prophecy students had been looking for the rebirth of Israel as a nation for years.

No eschatology teacher that I know is making any more predictions. There are no more events to come but the Rapture.
 

TokiEl

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The rapture is at the last trump.

Next the Gog confederacy will suffer a humiliating defeat against Israel.
 

Todd

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No eschatology teacher that I know is making any more predictions.
Really? As soon as you put forth a eschatology related theory you are by definition making a prediction.
I.e. a pre-tribulation teacher is predicting the rapture will occur before the tribulation.
 

phipps

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5 Reasons the Rapture Will Not Be Secret

Have you ever driven through a town with one stoplight—one of those towns you might miss if you blink?

The rapture refers to the time in the future when Christ will return to the earth and take believers to heaven with Him. Many churches teach that the rapture will happen secretly, referring to it as the “secret rapture.” Books and movies portray pilots vanishing from airline cockpits and drivers disappearing from their cars, leaving us wide-eyed imagining the resulting chaos.

Will the rapture really happen secretly? What does the Bible say? Here are five Bible reasons you won’t have to worry that you’ll blink and miss it.

1. Christ will return to earth in the same way He went up—in plain view. Soon after He was resurrected, Jesus met with a large group of His followers near Jerusalem. This meeting took place out in the open, in plain view of everyone passing by. Suddenly, Jesus’ feet left the ground as He ascended to heaven. As He did, “two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven’ ” (Acts 1:10, 11). The Bible even specifies that “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). Read also Matthew 24:27!

2. Christ will return with a shout, of the archangel, and God’s trumpet. The apostle Paul was quite specific in his description of the events of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The rapture being secret would be like sneaking up on someone while banging on pots and pans!

3. Graves all over the planet will break open at once. Paul continued his inspired picture of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, reporting that “the dead in Christ will rise first.” These believers who have died will break out of their graves simultaneously all around the planet! How many graves would this be? Let’s put it this way: Recently, the BBC published an article titled, “The world is running out of burial space.” Brace yourself for the sound of concrete breaking up all around you!

4. Everyone going to heaven will go up together. After Christ breaks believers out of their graves, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). That means every believer will rise off the ground and meet Christ in the air together. Among this throng of people, don’t you think there will be shouts of praise and joy? Sounds like it will be hard to miss the sight and sound of it.

5. The structure of Planet Earth will begin to melt. Peter added his description of the rapture, saying that “the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:12). Imagine the ear-splitting spectacle of the entire sky crackling with a roaring fire and the stunning visual image of our planet’s infrastructure melting with extreme heat!

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/news/item/id/16053/t/5-reasons-the-rapture-will-not-be-secret
 

Dalit

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Also look into the Biblical feasts. I really believe there's a high likelihood of Jesus returning on Yom Teruah (Feast of the Trumpets) aka Rosh Hashanah. The reason for this is because the first 4 feasts have already been fulfilled and the last 3 haven't. But then no one truly knows the day or the hour, but studying the feasts will bless you whether you choose to observe them or not.
 

phipps

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The Second Chance

Secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved. Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:

2 Corinthians 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the Second Advent.)

Jeremiah 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle" (Revelation 14:14). This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world" (Matthew 13:39). "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:16). Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved" (Jeremiah 8:20). There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.

When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations" (Matthew 25:32). There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ.

Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these man made, man pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earthshaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4: 17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/74/t/the-secret-rapture#Will-Christ-Return-in-Two-Phases-
 
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