True Israel

phipps

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PROMISES TO ISRAEL CONDITIONAL

A careful study of the Bible reveals that those promises of the Old Testament were not unconditional promises at all. Repeatedly, the nation of Israel was warned of the dire consequences of disobedience. Both blessing and curse were set before them, depending on obedience or disobedience. Because of continued patterns of rebellion, God allowed them to be decimated and scattered into Babylonian captivity for seventy years. Many prophets were raised up by God to foretell their return from that captivity. Some modem commentators have made the mistake of applying those prophecies of restoration to some future gathering of Israel. They refuse to see that the restoration spoken of by Isaiah and Jeremiah has already taken place.

There is neither time nor space to record here a fraction of the graphic threats of rejection made to Israel. Over and over God gave warnings like this: “And if thou wilt ... do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever ... But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments ... Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people” (1 Kings 9:4-7).

Finally, as related through the prophet Daniel, God allotted a probationary period of 490 years for the Jewish people to see what they would do about the Messiah (Daniel 9:24). That prophetic time period of 70 weeks (a day for a year, Ezekiel 4:6) began with the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem (Artaxerxes’ decree in 457 B.C., Ezra 7:11) and ended in A.D. 34. In that same year the gospel began to go to the Gentiles, Stephen was stoned, and Paul went forth to begin his unique ministry to the non-Jews. The occasion marked the formal and final separation of Israel from its covenant relationship.

Jesus had explained to the Jewish leaders in the clearest possible language that their rejection of Him would seal their own rejection as the children of the kingdom. “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43).

There is no mystery as to why the hundreds of specific Old Testament promises were never fulfilled to Israel. They utterly failed to meet the conditions of obedience. Otherwise, they would have inherited the earth, been delivered from all their enemies, and made Jerusalem the worship center for all nations.


WHO IS TRUE ISRAEL?

The big question is this: Will God’s promises fail just because the literal descendants of Abraham did not meet the terms of the covenant? Were the promises transferred to that other “nation” to whom Jesus said the kingdom would be given? Or must we still put our faith in some future turnaround that will restore national Israel to the divine favor? All those points will be completely clarified the moment we establish one basic rule of biblical interpretation. Without this principle in mind no one can properly understand the books of Daniel and Revelation, nor can we identify the true Israel of today.

Here is the rule: There is a primary, local, literal application of prophecy which points to a future, worldwide, spiritual application. By applying this principle to the Old Testament Scriptures there is absolutely no confusion as to the place of Israel in prophecy and history.

All the glorious promises were primarily aimed toward immediate blessings that God wanted to bestow on the nation. But in a secondary sense they pointed forward to a larger spiritual fulfillment on a worldwide level. Even though the local fulfillment failed when Israel failed to be faithful, the promises were never nullified or withdrawn. They will be honored, but only to that “nation” which Jesus said must replace the Jews as receivers of the kingdom. Who is that nation and people? The New Testament is saturated with the most explicit statements as to who the new Israel is.

Peter describes those “which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God” in these words: “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9, 10). Here is the new nation which replaces the nation of Israel. The Gentiles who will receive the true Messiah now enter into the New Covenant, ratified by the blood of the cross, and become the true spiritual Israel of God. They who were not God’s people become His “holy nation.”

Will they receive the very same promises that were given to Abraham’s descendants? Indeed, the Bible says that they are counted as the actual seed of Abraham. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29). Paul makes it even clearer in Romans 9:8. “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Again, Paul wrote, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” (Romans 2:28, 29).

Notice that true Israel will be characterized by circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh. What is heart circumcision? “Ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11). Don’t miss the significance of that text. Just as the Old Covenant was represented by the cutting off of the physical flesh, so the New Covenant would be exemplified by the cutting off of the fleshly nature of sin. In other words, all who accept Christ and are born again are the truly circumcised and the only true Jews. And according to Paul they also will inherit the promises made to Abraham.

After the crucifixion of Christ, there is not one indication that the literal Jews were accorded any recognition as the children of God. It is true that the door was left open through the preaching of the apostles until after the end of Daniel’s seventy-week prophecy. But from that time on no recognition is given to Israel as a nation. Israel henceforth is God’s people, made up of all those who accept the Saviour, whether Jew or Gentile. The Old Testament imagery and terminology is still used, especially in the book of Revelation, but Israel is now the church.

So we can see that there was no failure of the promises at all. They simply were transferred to the true spiritual Israel, which is the church, made up of all true believers in Christ. And the things that will happen to the church spiritually were foreshadowed by what happened to ancient Israel in a literal sense. Let’s look at a simple example of this principle in operation.

In the midst of Ezekiel’s portrayal of Israel’s victory over her enemies and influence over the nations, he began to describe a magnificent temple that would be built. Several chapters (40-48) are devoted to the precise measurements and physical appointments of that temple. Yet the temple has never been built. Other prophets referred to the program of building or restoring such a temple. Amos prophesied, “In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old” (Amos 9:11).

Many modern interpreters apply this promise to some future construction of a physical temple. But the Bible principle is that there is a secondary, worldwide fulfillment which is not physical, but spiritual. The New Testament confirms this by explaining how the prophecy of Amos has been fulfilled. “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up” (Acts 15:14-16).

Please notice how the Old Testament temple prophecies apply to the living church! The physical temple has now become the spiritual temple of the church, made up of Gentiles and all true believers. No one should now be looking for any restored, literal temple to be built. The body of Christ’s church is now the temple (1 Corinthians 3:16), and we are the “lively stones” of that “spiritual house” (1 Peter 2:5).

Some have felt confused because much of the Old Testament terminology is carried over into the New Testament description of the church—words like kingdom, nation, Israel, temple, Jerusalem, Zion, tribes of Israel, etc. Even Christ said to the Pharisees, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, (literal Israel) and given to a nation (spiritual Israel) bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43). This is one reason the futurists and dispensationalists believe the book of Revelation pertains to the literal Jew in modem Israel. But there is no cause for such confusion. The explanation had been so clearly made in so many places that the New Testament writer assumed all were aware that the church now replaced national Israel.
 

TokiEl

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The return of the Jews to Jerusalem was foretold by Jesus himself.



Matthew 24 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

What fig tree is the Lord talking about ? The one He cursed which withered which represents the Jewish state... but see He says the fig tree will sprout again. In other words the Jewish nation will be back.



Luke 21 24"They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The Lord says there will come a time when Jerusalem will no longer be trodden down by the Gentiles... but by the Jews. In other words there will come a time when the Jews will get back Jerusalem. And that time is history.
 

Thunderian

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The only covenant that had conditions attached to it was the Mosaic covenant, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ and replaced by his New covenant.

The other covenants, including the promise of the land to Abraham, had no conditions attached.

Not sure why this is so hard for some to accept. If there were conditions on the other covenants, why is there no mention of these conditions in Genesis?

The Satanic heresy of supercessionism makes God out to be a liar.
 

TokiEl

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The return of the Jews to the land God gave them is an absolute Scriptural certainty.

And it is in fact an end time marker.

This return of the Jews which is both Scriptural and has been a reality for 70 years doesn't change Christians relationship with Jesus Christ. But beware of becoming antisemites !
 

phipps

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3.
 

Yahda

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Jeremiah 31:31 Behold ! The days are coming declares the Lord “ when I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah a new covenant

34 “ For this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, I will put my law within them and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God and they will become my people

35 This is what the Lord says, who gives the sun for the light by day. The laws of the moon and the stars for light by night......

36 if these regulations should ever fail ONLY THEN would the offspring of Israel cease as a nation before me ALWAYS

37 “ If the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth could be explored ONLY THEN could I reject all the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither
they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd
they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

FYI, to fulfill in regard to the Bible means to carry out every word spoken by God and the prophets.

For example: If God said Israel will NEVER cease to be a nation before him....trust it will be fulfilled and so forth. The word will be FULFILLED.
 

phipps

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Jeremiah 31:31 Behold ! The days are coming declares the Lord “ when I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah a new covenant

34 “ For this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, I will put my law within them and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God and they will become my people

35 This is what the Lord says, who gives the sun for the light by day. The laws of the moon and the stars for light by night......

36 if these regulations should ever fail ONLY THEN would the offspring of Israel cease as a nation before me ALWAYS

37 “ If the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth could be explored ONLY THEN could I reject all the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither
they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd
they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

FYI, to fulfill in regard to the Bible means to carry out every word spoken by God and the prophets.

For example: If God said Israel will NEVER cease to be a nation before him....trust it will be fulfilled and so forth. The word will be FULFILLED.
God always fulfils His word but He didn't say it will be with literal genetic Jews. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah to this day (most of them anyway). They did not fulfil their word with God so now God will fulfil His word with spiritual Israel. All of the New testament teaches that Spiritual Israel is Israel too. Its not about genes, its about those who believe and have faith in Jesus, Jew or Gentile.
 
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Yahda

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God always fulfils His word but He didn't say it will be with literal genetic Jews. They don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah to this day. They did not fulfil their word with God so now God will fulfill His word with spiritual Israel. All of the New testament teaches that. Spiritual Israel is Israel too. Its not about genes, its about those who believe and have faith in Jesus, Jew or Gentile.

Genetic Jews ? Lol. Please tell me you aren’t talking about the Jews who say they are Jews ? And as far as it being all about “those who believe in jesus”, God never said that. In fact he never mentioned a jesus, but that’s neither here nor there. I won’t go back and forth over that. I’ll just say this

Isaiah 43:11 I- I am God and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR

I AM the One who declared and saved and made known when THERE WAS NO FOREIGN god AMONG YOU

Isaiah 43: 3 For I AM God, the Holy One of Israel YOUR SAVIOR

Hosea 13: But I am your God from the land of Egypt. You knew NO GOD except me and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR.

So you are free to put all your hope and faith in a savior sun/son but I will continue to

Isaiah 26:13.....make mention of God’s name ALONE.

Good day
 
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phipps

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Genetic Jews ? Lol. Please tell me you aren’t talking about the Jews who say they are Jews ? And as far as it being all about “those who believe in jesus”, God never said that. In fact he never mentioned a jesus, but that’s neither here nor there. I won’t go back and forth over that. I’ll just say this

Isaiah 43:11 I- I am God and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR

I AM the One who declared and saved and made known when THERE WAS NO FOREIGN god AMONG YOU

Isaiah 43: 3 For I AM God, the Holy One of Israel YOUR SAVIOR

Hosea 13: But I am your God from the land of Egypt. You knew NO GOD except me and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR.

So you are free to put all your hope and faith in a savior sun/son but I will continue to

Isaiah 26:13.....make mention of God’s name ALONE.

Good day
The God of the Old and New Testaments is Jesus. "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" John 1:10. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" Colossians 1:16.

There are at least 60 Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ in the New Testament. But there are more than 300 references to the Messiah in the Old Testament. Here are two examples.

Prophecy
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(Isaiah 7:14). Immanuel means God with us.

Fulfilment
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

(Matthew 1:24-25).

Prophecy
because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(Isaiah 53:12)

Fulfilment
Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left
. (Matthew 27:38)

We cannot be saved without Jesus that even the Old covenant had a sanctuary system where they sacrificed animals for the atonement of their sins that represented Christ. He is the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world after all. God bless.
 
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Yahda

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That is Jesus. The God of the Old and New testament is Jesus. There are at least 60 Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ in the New Testament. But there are more than 300 references to the Messiah in the Old Testament. Here are two examples.

Prophecy Fulfillment
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14). Immanuel means God with us.

because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:12)
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
(Matthew 1:24-25).

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.


For one Jesus died for 2 1/2 days. God can not die.

In reference to Isaiah 7:14. Immanuel was a sign for King Ahaz as told in the beginning of Isaiah 7:1-9

Specifically verse 10 God continued speaking to Ahaz ASK FOR A SIGN from your God....in verse 14 he goes on to say Therefore God himself will GIVE YOU A SIGN. Behold a virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son and she will name him IMMANUEL.”

Immanuel was a sign that the two Kings whom he feared would be destroyed spoken of in 7:1-9

With that being said, Christians tend to misinterpret scriptures a lot. We can go prophecy for prophecy. Precept for precept.

For example: (New Testament) Matthew 3:15 He stayed there until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what was spoken by God, out of Egypt I called my son

Hosea 11:1 (Old Testament) When Israel was a boy I loved him And OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.

Exodus 4:22(Old Testament) You must say to the pharaoh “ This is what God says ISRAEL IS MY “SON”, my first born 23 I say to you send my SON away so that he may serve me but if you refuse to send him away I am going to kill your son your FIRST BORN”

Said in reference to God delivering his people from Egypt.

So yeah we can do this all day, but I’ll just stop here. You believe what you want to believe and I’ll stick to the scriptures. What thus said the Lord my God. And you can continue to follow the words of Christgod.

The God I serve says with CONVICTION (repeatedly) I-I am God, and there is NO ONE ELSE. Isaiah 45:5

I’m cool with taking Him at his word *shrug*
 

TokiEl

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God commanded the Israelites to wait 2000 cubits before they followed the Ark of the Covenant into the Promised land as they did not know the way.

Well that is a type for the Jews who don't know the Way of the Messiah who would go 2000 years before them into Paradise.

God said wait and don't come near it. And the Jews obey as they won't touch Jesus with a ten foot pole...yet.

And that's alright. It's all foretold by God and going exactly after His plan.


It is unfortunate that most who teach the Scriptures are not doing manual labour instead.
 

Daciple

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The Satanic heresy of supercessionism makes God out to be a liar.
Is that right? Its Satanic Heresy? So you believe that basically every major Church Father, and pretty much everyone who lived up until 1830's are all heretics? Again you refuse to accept facts, the facts are no one believed as you do about Israel until VERY recently. Almost every single Church Father believed that the Church is Israel. You want to call all of them Heretics now because they dont believe your new man made Theology?

Lets see how the Early Church felt about the Church and Israel shall we?

Read the Epistle of Barnabas written between 70-130 AD, right around the time of the New Testament writings.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html

Very clearly and distinctly it sets out the fact that the Church has replaced Israel or that the Church is Spiritual Israel however you want to word it.

Read Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho a Jew, has a chapter named,

CHAPTER CXXIII -- RIDICULOUS INTERPRETATIONS OF THE JEWS. CHRISTIANS ARE THE TRUE ISRAEL.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

Read from Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon from 177 until 195, in his Against Heresies V, 34 where he shows that the Church has replaced Israel and allegorized all prophetic passages which have Israel in view.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103534.htm

Read from Tertullia and Augustine after him and Origen and Chrysostom, all of them say that the Church is Spiritual Israel and Israel was replaced by the Church.

Need more modern? How about Calvin and Luther, even Luther the father of the Protestant Movement, both of them viewed the Church as Spiritual Israel and that Israel was replaced by the Church. On and on I can go, pretty much the entireity of the Early Church and the masssssssss majority of the Modern Church until John Nelson Darby believed that the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ and the Church, that the Church is Spiritual Israel and that the Church has replaced Israel ect.

You are hard pressed to find many writings Pre John Nelson Darby that have Israel viewed in any other way, again facts of History but you continually act like they are not so. Do some exist? Sure very tiny % in the Modern Church aka past Reformation, almost zero in the Early Church 90AD-400AD.

Guess everyone is a heretic..
 

TokiEl

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Is that right? Its Satanic Heresy? So you believe that basically every major Church Father, and pretty much everyone who lived up until 1830's are all heretics? Again you refuse to accept facts, the facts are no one believed as you do about Israel until VERY recently. Almost every single Church Father believed that the Church is Israel. You want to call all of them Heretics now because they dont believe your new man made Theology?
Nevertheless Jesus foretold that the fig tree He just cursed would sprout again.

And Daniel's timeline is dependent on the Jews restoration of Jerusalem.
 

phipps

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For one Jesus died for 2 1/2 days. God can not die.

In reference to Isaiah 7:14. Immanuel was a sign for King Ahaz as told in the beginning of Isaiah 7:1-9

Specifically verse 10 God continued speaking to Ahaz ASK FOR A SIGN from your God....in verse 14 he goes on to say Therefore God himself will GIVE YOU A SIGN. Behold a virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son and she will name him IMMANUEL.”

Immanuel was a sign that the two Kings whom he feared would be destroyed spoken of in 7:1-9

With that being said, Christians tend to misinterpret scriptures a lot. We can go prophecy for prophecy. Precept for precept.

For example: (New Testament) Matthew 3:15 He stayed there until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what was spoken by God, out of Egypt I called my son

Hosea 11:1 (Old Testament) When Israel was a boy I loved him And OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.

Exodus 4:22(Old Testament) You must say to the pharaoh “ This is what God says ISRAEL IS MY “SON”, my first born 23 I say to you send my SON away so that he may serve me but if you refuse to send him away I am going to kill your son your FIRST BORN”

Said in reference to God delivering his people from Egypt.

So yeah we can do this all day, but I’ll just stop here. You believe what you want to believe and I’ll stick to the scriptures. What thus said the Lord my God. And you can continue to follow the words of Christgod.

The God I serve says with CONVICTION (repeatedly) I-I am God, and there is NO ONE ELSE. Isaiah 45:5

I’m cool with taking Him at his word *shrug*
Jesus died for three days as the Bible states. There is only truth in the Bible. Also we count one whole day as 24 hours or one whole day of daylight and night, but the Hebrews did not. Three days and nights, in the Hebrew thinking a day/night is one day. Also any portion of a day was reckoned as a day. If you go to the book of Mark and carefully study the last week of Jesus' ministry starting with the first day of the week and his triumphal entry into Jerusalem and ending with the resurrection on the first day of the week you will see that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, rested in the grave on the Sabbath and rose sometime after sunset (after the evening of the Sabbath close) on the first day of the week. The Bible does not give the exact hour of the resurrection, but very early in the morning He had already risen.


And what about the other prophecies about Jesus then are all of them misinterpretations?

1. He was born in Bethlehem.
Prophecy
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Micah 5:2).

Fulfilment
Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea (Matthew 2:1).

2. He had a ministry of miracles.
Prophecy
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped (Isaiah 35:5).

Fulfillment
And Jesus went about all the cities and villages...healing every sickness and every disease among the people (Matthew 9:35)

3. He entered Jerusalem on a donkey.
Prophecy
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).

Fulfillment
They brought it to Jesus, and they threw their coats on the colt and put Jesus on it. (Luke 19:35).

4. He was betrayed by a friend.
Prophecy
Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me (Psalm 41:9).

Fulfillment
Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him (Matthew 10:4).

5. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and

6. Judas threw the money into the temple, and it was given to the potter for his field.

Prophecy
So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD (Zechariah 11:13).

Fulfillment
And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed...The chief priests...with the money bought the Potter's Field (Matthew 27:5-7).

7. He made no answer under accusation.
Prophecy
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth (Isaiah 53:7).

Fulfillment
And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer (Matthew 27:12).

8. He was physically abused.
Prophecy
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities...And by His scourging we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).

Fulfillment
Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him to be crucified (Matthew 27:26).

9. His hands and feet were pierced.
Prophecy
They pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16).

Fulfillment
When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him (Luke 23:33).

10. He was crucified with thieves.
Prophecy
He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12).

Fulfillment
At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left (Matthew 27:38).

11. Soldiers divided His garments and cast lots for them.
Prophecy
They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots (Psalm 22:18).

Fulfillment
Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier, and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece. So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be" (John 19:23-24).

12. He was offered vinegar.
Prophecy
They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21).

Fulfillment
They gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink (Matthew 27:34).

13. He had no bones broken.
Prophecy
He keeps all his bones, Not one of them is broken (Psalm 34:20).

Fulfillment
but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs (John 19:33).

14. He was buried in a rich man's tomb.
Prophecy
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death (Isaiah 53:9).

Fulfillment
There came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph...And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb (Matthew 27:57-60).

The accurate prophecies in the Bible that pertain to the Messiah are all fulfilled in Jesus. No other individual can claim His messiahship. He is the Prince of Peace, the Lamb that was slain, and "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18).

Some have suggested that Jesus fulfilled these and more prophecies coincidentally. But according to the science of probability, the chance of any one human fulfilling a selection of just eight of these prophecies (including the one on crucifixion) is one in one hundred billion.


God can do anything. His ways are not our ways. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9. He did die and He raised Himself up. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18.

Maybe some Christians misinterpret some prophecies, there are different religions within Christendom and they all have different doctrines. Most of them are right about Jesus being God. He is God and the whole Bible is about Him. There is so much about Christ in both the Old and New testaments that it is clear He is God.
 
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Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
Nevertheless Jesus foretold that the fig tree He just cursed would sprout again.
So if we take this to literally mean a regathering of Israel, then what qualifies as the supposed generation that wont pass away until they see the end of time?

Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I mean I have seen people go from a generation being 40 years to 70 years and well now we gotta go further out to make this supposed time line and prophecy stick. Its been 70 years exactly this year, and well here we are still here, no Greater Israel to be seen, no Antichrist, no Tribulation nothing. Are we gonna make a generation what 80, 90, 120, 200?

You read into the parable what you want to make this about Israel, but Israel isnt in the view of the Parable. Reading the text for what it is saying, Jesus is relating the signs above, wars, famines, earthquakes, false prophets ect as being the signs before His coming. Just like how in summer there are signs that summer is about to take place aka blooming of the trees, so too will these sings come before what He said ends.

It is the generation that sees the signs, the beginning of the sorrows that wont pass until all these things be fulfilled. So as stated before, in order to get your Eschatology to work, you are going to have to keep redefining a "generation", in Scripture the longest a generation lasts is 80 years max. I could point to Scriptures that declare 35-40 years make up a Biblical Generation, and if we take that as the meaning of Generation then your interpretation fails.

So I guess if the world doesnt end in a few months and Jesus comes back, your entire Eschatology fails, but I am sure you will make an excuse to cling to it no matter how far out we need to push this generation thing...

And Daniel's timeline is dependent on the Jews restoration of Jerusalem.
Again its not, Phipps I believe in a different thread showed how Daniel has been fulfilled already. How it is incorrect to break up the 70th week which again didnt exist in the mind of 99% of Christians through out History until John Nelson Darby. You put way to much faith in his made up Eschatology...
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
Jesus died for for three days as the Bible states. There is only truth in the Bible. Also We count one whole day as 24 hours or one whole day of daylight and night, but the Hebrews did not. Three days and nights, in the Hebrew thinking a day/night is one day. Also any portion of a day was reckoned as a day. If you go to the book of Mark and carefully study the last week of Jesus' ministry starting with the first day of the week and his triumphal entry into Jerusalem and ending with the resurrection on the first day of the week you will see that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, rested in the grave on the Sabbath and rose sometime after sunset (after the evening of the Sabbath close) on the first day of the week. The Bible does not give the exact hour of the resurrection, but very early in the morning He had already risen.


And what about the other prophecies about Jesus then are all of them misinterpretations?

2. He was born in Bethlehem.
Prophecy
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Micah 5:2).

Fulfilment
Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea (Matthew 2:1).

3. He had a ministry of miracles.
Prophecy
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped (Isaiah 35:5).

Fulfillment
And Jesus went about all the cities and villages...healing every sickness and every disease among the people (Matthew 9:35)

4. He entered Jerusalem on a donkey.
Prophecy
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).

Fulfillment
They brought it to Jesus, and they threw their coats on the colt and put Jesus on it. (Luke 19:35).

5. He was betrayed by a friend.
Prophecy
Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me (Psalm 41:9).

Fulfillment
Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him (Matthew 10:4).

6. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and

7. Judas threw the money into the temple, and it was given to the potter for his field.
Prophecy
So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD (Zechariah 11:13).

Fulfillment
And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed...The chief priests...with the money bought the Potter's Field (Matthew 27:5-7).

8. He made no answer under accusation.
Prophecy
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth (Isaiah 53:7).

Fulfillment
And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer (Matthew 27:12).

9. He was physically abused.
Prophecy
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities...And by His scourging we are healed (Isaiah 53:5).

Fulfillment
Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him to be crucified (Matthew 27:26).

10. His hands and feet were pierced.
Prophecy
They pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16).

Fulfillment
When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him (Luke 23:33).

11. He was crucified with thieves.
Prophecy
He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12).

Fulfillment
At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left (Matthew 27:38).

12. Soldiers divided His garments and cast lots for them.

Prophecy
They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots (Psalm 22:18).

Fulfillment
Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier, and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece. So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be" (John 19:23-24).

13. He was offered vinegar.
Prophecy
They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21).

Fulfillment
They gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink (Matthew 27:34).

14. He had no bones broken.

Prophecy
He keeps all his bones, Not one of them is broken (Psalm 34:20).

Fulfillment
but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs (John 19:33).

15. He was buried in a rich man's tomb.

Prophecy
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death (Isaiah 53:9).

Fulfillment
there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph...And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb (Matthew 27:57-60).

The accurate prophecies in the Bible that pertain to the Messiah are all fulfilled in Jesus. No other individual can claim His messiahship. He is the Prince of Peace, the Lamb that was slain, and "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18).

Some have suggested that Jesus fulfilled these and more prophecies coincidentally. But according to the science of probability, the chance of any one human fulfilling a selection of just eight of these prophecies (including the one on crucifixion) is one in one hundred billion.


God can do anything. His ways are not our ways. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9. He did die and He raised Himself up. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18.

Maybe some Christians misinterpret some prophecies, there are different religions within Christendom and they all have different doctrines. Most of them are right about Jesus being God. He is God and the whole Bible is about Him. There is so much about Christ in both the Old and New testaments that it is clear He is God.

David was from Bethlehem. 1st Samuel 17:12 Now David was the son of the Ephrathite from Bethlehem of Judah named Jesse.

Isaiah 11:1 Then a shoot shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; read more.
But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.....

Jeremiah 8:9 They will serve the Lord their God and David their king whom I will raise up for them

Ezekiel 37:24 “ My servant David will be king, and they will have one shepherd (Ezekiel 34:23). They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statues. They will dwell on the land that I gave to my servant Jacob where your forefathers lived and they will dwell on it forever, they and their children’s children and David my servant will be their chieftain forever.

So again right off the back you are misinterpreting scriptures. I told you we can go prophesy for prophecy.
 

TokiEl

Superstar
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
7,239
So if we take this to literally mean a regathering of Israel, then what qualifies as the supposed generation that wont pass away until they see the end of time?

Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Those who witness the return of the Jewish nation state will also witness His return. So it must be close.



Again its not, Phipps I believe in a different thread showed how Daniel has been fulfilled already. How it is incorrect to break up the 70th week which again didnt exist in the mind of 99% of Christians through out History until John Nelson Darby. You put way to much faith in his made up Eschatology...
Phipps turned seven sevens and sixty-two sevens until the Messiah into 490 years counting from the 7th year of Artaxerxes and came to 34 AD.

But the timeline until the Messiah is not 490 years not even 483 years but seven sevens and sixty-two sevens.

Isaac Newton is the only one i know of who supposed that Jesus would return about 49 years after the return of the Jewish nation state.
 

Renegade

Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
737
Again its not, Phipps I believe in a different thread showed how Daniel has been fulfilled already. How it is incorrect to break up the 70th week which again didnt exist in the mind of 99% of Christians through out History until John Nelson Darby. You put way to much faith in his made up Eschatology...
You sound just like Scar on the old boards except he claimed it was Francisco Ribera not Darby...
Maybe you should actually read the Ante-Nicene Fathers before commenting...

Irenaeus, taught by Polycarp, disciple of John...
And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: "And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs." And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: "And in the midst of the week," he says, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete." Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.
(
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chp. 25)

5. From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy, and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error, but also, that there is one and the same God the Father, who was declared by the prophets, but made manifest by Christ. For if what Daniel prophesied concerning the end has been confirmed by the Lord, when He said, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet"
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chp. 25)

But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." –
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chp. 30)

"For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world...."
[Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 22]

"Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every God, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His glorious kingdom from heaven, as it is said: 'And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.' As also it was announced to Daniel: 'And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed' - that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the test of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: 'And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.'
[Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 39]

"And at first, indeed, that deceitful and lawless one, with crafty deceitfulness, will refuse such glory; but the men persisting, and holding by him, will declare him king. And thereafter he will be lifted up in heart, and he who was formerly gentle will become violent, and he who pursued love will become pitiless, and the humble in heart will become haughty and inhuman, and the hater of unrighteousness will persecute the righteous. Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings, - those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, 'I shall make my covenant for one week,' he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week - that is to say, for three years and a half - Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man's form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls."
[Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV]

Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease. By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. For John says, And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [Hippolytus - Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 43]
 
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