Can A Christian Lose Salvation?

Red Sky at Morning · Apr 26, 2017

Todd said:
I don't reject it as scripture... Scripture simply means writings. Paul's writings do give us insight into the formation of early Gentile Church. We can learn from it. However I do not equate Paul's writing to the word of God. Even Paul himself admits at times he is writing his own thoughts and not giving commandments of God. Peter confirms thus in 2 Peter 3 when he says Paul writes from his own wisdom (not the same as writing the word of God)

So I'm guessing you think the OT is scripture - I was just reading Habakuk 2 as it has prophetic resonances, and came across this...

1I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

2And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Here Habakuk is clearly speaking as the man, and a man who has spoken wrongly as he is expecting reproof. This is scripture too.

I'm sure you can appreciate the implication.

Todd · Apr 26, 2017

mecca said:
Scripture is a sacred religious text.

Look up the word scripture in 2 Peter 3.... In Greek it is graphe which literally means "writings"

Todd · Apr 26, 2017

Scott Christopher Shuman said:
Just curious. Who do your think authored the book of Hebrews?

Doesn't matter who I think wrote it. Traditionally authorship was credited to Paul, but modern scholars have cast doubt on that. The fact we don't know who wrote it makes it even more suspect..

floss · Apr 26, 2017

Red Sky at Morning said:
Salvation is for people like the last man in this little clip...

Short, very simple, but true things often are...

nice and simple video indeed...lol

I believe these verses support it

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful WORKS?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - NEXT!

Will of the Father!

John 6
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

KoncreteMind · Apr 26, 2017

Thunderian said:
There is a different mechanism for salvation now than there was for Abraham and David. They couldn't claim the blood of Jesus Christ because it had yet to be spilled for their sin. Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness for sin, but because God is merciful, he gave commandments for sacrifices to be made as a temporary covering.

Back in the day, Abraham and David also had security because they believed in God and performed the sacrifices. Even when Abraham disobeyed God, and even when David had Uriah killed and took his wife, there was reconciliation with God.

These days, we don't sacrifice animals because Jesus Christ was the perfect sacrifice on our behalf. We accept this sacrifice made for us, and we become God's righteousness. Those who argue that you can lose salvation for any reason have yet to make a case for how God inside us manages to lose his own righteousness. When we are saved, we become part of the body of Christ, but there are those who would have us believe that Christ is willing to hack off his own limbs because they are sinning.

Why is it different though? In the OT the mechanism for salvation was obedience. Why would it change to simply belief? It seems way easier to simply pinpoint a belief that another person did the hard work so now I dont have to, than to actually have to walk a way of life and expect to be judged based on how I walked it. And the example you brought of David, shows that perfection wasnt expected since David was spoken highly of throughout the bible. There would be no point for judgement if another man's life counted for our own simply because we believed him.

Even though there were other ways to atone for sacrifice other than sacrifice and Ezekiel prophesied about sacrifices in the future, overall, Jesus said to endure to the end to be saved. Im not sure how christians can read that then say that once they believe a certain belief, they're saved no matter what...

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

Hi Lisa I remember you too! Hope you have been well!!!

Thanks, Daciple, I've been alright, hanging in there anyway.

The first one I looked at was Hebrews 10:26 because you had quoted it to Thunder right before writing your post to me, and it says:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I believe the proper interpretation of this verse is inclusive of what the rest of the Bible states, and I believe that Paul is not speaking of a true born again believer and as we will see in context of the rest of the chapter he doesnt actually believe anyone can be born again and then lose their salvation. I believe the intent of this specific verse is to say that once someone comes to hear and know deep down the Truth of Christ, if they REJECT Christ utterly and totally, then of course there would remain no more sacrifice for their sin. How could there be a Sacrifice for their sin if they willfully reject that which they heard and knew was the Truth. This isnt to say an actual born again believer who not only heard the Truth of Christ but then acted on Faith and Believed on Christ, it is those who hear the gospel and reject it in their hearts, even if they at some point act or make a profession in which there would be no more sacrifice because it wouldnt apply to them.

We must read this differently then...because to me it means just what it states. And actually, 10:35-39 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COJING WILL COME AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOULD HAS NO PLEASUER IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (The capitalized words are in the Bible that way.) So, the chapter finishes out saying that one can shrink back to destruction.

Do people go to Hell for their Sins or because they reject Christ? I maintain that my Sin wouldn't be the cause of my damnation, it would have been my rejection of His Sacrifice and thus if I willfully reject His Sacrifice then His Sacrifice no longer applies to me, wouldnt you agree with that statement?

Both, really to answer your first question. We wouldn't be in this position if it weren't for sin....

I believe 1 John 2:19 describes exactly the persons spoken of in Hebrews 10, and it says:

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These people were never of them, while they went out from them they never were of them otherwise then they would have continued with them, but they didnt and thus it was manifested to all that they were never of them. And we can see that Paul has the exact same perspective of salvation when we go on to look at the rest of the Chapter which makes it very apparent that Eternal Salvation is what is truly in Pauls mind when writing to them. What does he close the chapter saying?

I've heard this quoted before to say that people were never saved anyway. I don't think this describes the people being talked about in Hebrews 10...the people in Hebrews 10 are believers, the ones that went out weren't believers but antichrists.

Before expanding upon that Id like to also offer up the example of Judas, he was in full view of Christ and even seemed to go along with Him but He didnt truly believe in Him, how could He if He was going to hand him over to be crucified? He willfully rejected Christ which I believe is the SIN spoken about here, and therefore Christs Sacrifice no longer remained for him..

Doesn't that just mean that not all people who hang out were believers anyway, doesn't mean that people can't fall away....you can go to any church and find people like that...not true believers..but that's not what the verses are saying...they are saying that true believers fall away. Did Judas ever really believed...I don't think he did until the end and that's why he took his own life.

Anyways onto what Paul closed the chapter with;
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The just live by faith and we are not of them that draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul! How does Paul conclude that we are not ones who draw back unto perdition, that we are of them that believe to the saving of the soul?

Hmmm...he is saying that there are some that draw back unto perdition, but he is telling the Hebrews that they aren't the ones that draw back. There are some that will draw back though.

Because He knows its not possible to be rejected by God once we believe and truly have faith:

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

How are we sanctified? Is it by our works? Or is it by the offering of the body of Christ? And how often was this offered? According to Scripture it is once and for all.

Um..but he just got done saying that it is possible. He's trying to encourage the Hebrews that they won't shrink back.

Yes, Jesus offered up the once for all sacrifice for sins...that has nothing to do with shrinking back or falling away.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So we are not only sanctified by Christs offering but we are perfected by Him. And exactly how long are we perfected? Is it for a certain length of time? Where is the annulment at in terms of Sin here? What I read is that once I believed in Christ and accepted Him as my Savior in my heart with full faith, that in that instance I was sanctified and perfected in front of God forever!! Not only part of my life not some not for a couple of years but FOREVER!!

Here is a thought, what kind of God would be so cruel to offer you salvation, fully give it to you and then knowing full well at some point in the future would end up doing whatever Sin you think can separate you from God, and allow that person to arrive at that point? Why wouldnt God save them and then take them home before they "sinned their salvation away"? How can you explain this about a God who gives salvation?

Speaking of Sin, what does Paul write concerning the Sins of those who believe, were sanctified and perfected by Christ?

Where is the promise of once sanctified, always sanctified? I don't read that there.

Well, hopefully, the saved person reads the words of the Bible and finds out that you can fall away and prays to God that that doesn't happen to them...He is a God who warns people and in this instance...in a lot of the Bible He is seen warning His people or warning Christians...

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

@Daciple
The continuation:

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

What Sin is it that God isnt forgetting that will lead us to lose our Salvation? See I truly believe this 100%, Jesus Christ knew every single solitary Sin I would ever commit, all of them, and He went to the Cross with me on His mind and died for every single one of them! I believe that once I believed and had Faith that my loving Savior did that for me, EVERY SINGLE SIN was forgotten by God! How on earth is it possible for me to out Sin my Salvation, if God knew every Sin before hand, put it all on Christ, who then sanctified and perfected me in the site of the Father and God chose to forget ALL OF THEM? I contend it is not possible...

I think you would be wrong about that...Hebrews 10:26 points that out...if you willingly go on sinning, I think its a process and not a one time deal, but it is a possibility for believers. And I say believers because the verse says that if we go on sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth...these are believers. Only believers have the truth.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

What is it that allows us to draw near? What is it that allows us to have hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water? Is it our works? Heavens no, but it is a true heart in full assurance of faith!! Faith in Christ and that He has sanctified us, perfected us, died for our Sins and forgotten our Sins!!!

Yes, and....that's what we need to do, draw near to God in faith...but if we don't then we will see destruction.

[QUOTE}As for 1 Timothy 4:1 I see that as exactly the same as spoken of by John and in the same context as I have just explained. Not everyone that professes to be a Christian is actually a Christian. I see plenty of people who profess they are Christians out here teaching damnable doctrines such as Jesus isnt God, that Jesus is just a teacher or a prophet, that Jesus didnt actually die, that Jesus was an Angel, that Jesus isnt coming back ect ect ect. People depart from the True Faith, lukewarm so called Christians or even those of cults that profess themselves Christians. I do not believe this is saying that a True Born Again Christian is going to leave the Faith, why would they?[/QUOTE]Well, there is where you are totally wrong and ignoring the text. Sorry, Daciple, you know I love you, but ......the Spirit explicitly says...leaving no doubt about the meaning...(interesting since people somehow miss the meaning?) Anyway...in later times some will fall away from the faith. How can God get any clearer than that? I don't understand why there is any debate. These are people in the faith, they are Christians. That is what the faith means...but it's interesting that you mention all the falseness since this verse says that they will be paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons....They fell away and fell for lies...very sad. That's why we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith...be good Bereans...but its hard when you don't even want to see that we can fall away. Reminds me of Jeremiah. He told the Israelites that God told them to go into Babylon and captivity...but no they wanted to go into Egypt where they thought they would get a better shot, so they consulted their own prophets who said ya, that's a good idea...that's what God want's you to do, but Jeremiah says, no don't do that that will be awful for you. Who did they listen to...not Jeremiah. Or how about when David was going to bring the ark into Jerusalem...He didn't didn't find out the right way to do it and one man lost his life touching the ark to keep it from falling...then David went back and found out the proper way to do things. God tells us what's up and its up to us to decide the truth of it. Here, I don't even know why we are even in disagreement when to me its overwhelming obvious that God says what He means here.

TMHservant · Apr 27, 2017

Until this day, the people that Allah deceive still have no idea that they have been deceived. They think Jesus died in the cross when Allah actually raised him to heaven until the judgement day where he will come again. No one realize it for thousands of years. The greatest deceiver indeed.

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

So this is a True Statement, if there were a person who were Truly Enlightened and Truly tasted the Heavenly Gift and were made to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost, that if they fell away it would be impossible for them to come to repentance because this means they would need to re crucify the Lord. However that is a mighty big IF in the middle of that statement and it never speaks to IF this has ever happened ever does it? I dont believe it even show there is a chance considering the next statement Paul makes, but I'd like to know, do you ever see yourself ever coming to this point ever?

Yes, if they do that, not that it can't be done...I hope I don't get to that point.

I can tell you that I have believed on the Lord since 1999, and I will tell you my walk hasnt always been the most fruitful, the most productive and I have even stepped right back into the world living an ungodly lifestyle after my mother died.

I'm sorry for your loss

but I'm glad God was with you, He is such a comfort!

Jesus restored my relationship with Him by a set of divine circumstances, it is utterly impossible for me to believe anyone can have the Holy Spirit in them and out sin Gods grace and conviction. If someone is able to go walk back into the world and doesnt feel the chastisement of God upon them and conviction to come back and repent, I say that person never was saved ever...

Yes, it does seem crazy that anyone would give up God, but people do. I think of the Israelites who were mightily taken out of Egypt with great signs and wonders, and the moment Moses wandered off....what were they doing? Golden calf....anyone?

In fact what does Paul say immediately after those verses Lisa?

Hebrew 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Paul doesnt believe its possible for them, in fact he outright says that he is persuaded they have the things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. And He goes on to say to keep the full assurance of hope, how can one be assured of anything if they can lose salvation?

Well, ya, Paul is trying to encourage them not to fall away. That he thinks they won't, not that he knows they won't. Deceivers had gone into the churches even at that time...they were hoping people didn't fall away.

Adam and Eve sure did have repercussions for their disobedience, and I am far to aware that those of us who are saved and sin suffer repercussions for our disobedience as well, but let me ask you this, do you believe Adam and Eve are in heaven? I would have to say if I ascribed to your ideology along with the thought process of your proof text, they ought to be in Hell. They above all humans had full revelation of Gods Truth considering they actually walked with Him, and they disobeyed, willfully sinning, so thus should they not be able to have the Blood of Christ applied to them?

No, I don't believe Adam and Eve are in heaven...but then I don't think anyone is in heaven right now anyway...but that's a different thing...anyway, I don't think they will be in heaven. Only because they never did take responsibility for their disobedience. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed God for giving him the woman...those 2 weren't sorry at all. Now, if they repented and God didn't mention it..then possibly...but I don't think they are.

So your works are from fear and in hopes God wont reject the Salvation He already offered you? You also would be working yourself into heaven, a point I think you overlook continually, can you address these assertions as to how you can be saved by grace thru faith but not think working to keep salvation isnt a works based salvation ideology?

Well, we do work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hand of the living God!

I don't know that my works are in fear...there is a fear of saying no to God because lets face it, you really can't say no can you? And be in the faith? But, after I agree to God, then its all good...not that I go to heaven or not, but that I was obedient.

I dont believe that Eternal Salvation cause one to have the mindset you project upon us, I never would ever think I have a license to Sin! God forbid! Instead I have a deep and passionate love and thankfulness towards God for His Salvation and now have the freedom to serve Him without the constant thought and fear that anyday now Hes gonna say thats it Daciple that Sin was the last one YOURE OUTTA MY KINGDOM!!! There are repercussions for my Sin, as tho I can be out here sinning as I please and not suffer chastisement! But I dont want to not Sin because Im afraid to lose my salvation, nor because I know there will be consqences for doing so but because I love God and it was MY Sin that put Him on the Cross. I hate my Sin, its horrible and day by day I am continually being transformed into the image of Christ, that He can conquer whatever Sins I struggle with, and I am assured and convinced that even tho I fail, when I submit to Christ and the Holy Spirit works in me, that I am more than a conqueror and that I am dead to sin!!!

Its almost like you're blaming me for what God said. He said it, I didn't. He's the one that said explicitly that in the end times some will fall away from the faith, not sure why I'm the bad guy here for stating the obvious? Well, ya, you've got to keep that up all your life...obedience to God, trust, faith...all of it. It's a daily thing. Sin is crouching and waiting for us...and we have to be alert. There is a reason God warns us so much don't ya think?

I would love to see you respond to my questions Lisa and the verses I have laid out that show we have assurance in Christ and Him alone for our salvation. I also hope that one day you can experience the freedom and assurance I do in Christ when I simply believe His Word and put Faith in Him alone for sanctification perfection and salvation!!
Oh, I do believe that God is doing a good work in me and I have assurance that I am abiding in Christ right now, but that doesn't mean that I believe that its a guarantee...I must always be striving to run with endurance this race, because there is no guarantee that without it I will get to the end.
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Notice he says may win, not will win....and he also hopes he won't be disqualified...Paul of all people!!!

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

Todd said:
I don't reject it as scripture... Scripture simply means writings. Paul's writings do give us insight into the formation of early Gentile Church. We can learn from it. However I do not equate Paul's writing to the word of God. Even Paul himself admits at times he is writing his own thoughts and not giving commandments of God. Peter confirms thus in 2 Peter 3 when he says Paul writes from his own wisdom (not the same as writing the word of God)

You get 2 Peter 3:15 wrong every time...

Daciple · Apr 27, 2017

We must read this differently then...because to me it means just what it states.

Obviously we interpret it differently because I do not believe that the Bible is ever at odds with itself and in my previous post I listed many verses that show salvation can not be lost. Thats why I asked if you would be willing to address the verses I have listed that show Eternal Salvation. You can read them in context to what I wrote back on page 5, but some of the verses I listed are Ephesians 1:4-14, 2 Tim 1:12, 1 John 5:11-13, Jude 1:24, Hebrews 7:25, John 10:28-29, Psalm 146:3 & Psalm 118:8 ( In context of trusting in yourself or man to keep your salvation) Romans 8:16 & Eph 4:30 ( In context of each other). As I stated I dont believe the Bible contradicts itself and we must always interpret verses in light of other verses harmonizing them. I cant see any possible harmony between I can lose my salvation and I am persuaded that that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him or I can lose my salvation and I have been sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption. The interpretation I have given to your proof text keep harmony between the verses that say we cant lose salvation, and the text in which you presented that you believe say we can however I do not believe they say that especially considering the context of the verses surrounding them...

So, the chapter finishes out saying that one can shrink back to destruction.

I dont believe that is what he is meaning at all, I believe he is saying believers are NOT the ones that draw back unto destruction. We live by Faith, those who dont live by Faith are the ones who draw back to destruction. Do you believe your Faith is of yourself or was it given to you as a gift?

Both, really to answer your first question. We wouldn't be in this position if it weren't for sin..

I believe that people choose to go to Hell, and that choice is based upon accepting or rejecting Christ. Sin doesnt put us in Hell because everyone is freely offered grace to be redeemed, all Sin was placed upon Christ and atoned for, however if one rejects the free offer of Grace, then they choose Hell.

I've heard this quoted before to say that people were never saved anyway. I don't think this describes the people being talked about in Hebrews 10...the people in Hebrews 10 are believers, the ones that went out weren't believers but antichrists.

Well obviously I disagree, if they dont believe in the end are they believers? No they are Antichrists, and I believe anyone who in the end doesnt believe never really believed regardless of profession, just as I mentioned similar to Judas. He never believed in Christ yet outwardly he looked as tho he did, but truly He was an Antichrist...

Where is the promise of once sanctified, always sanctified? I don't read that there.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

It says it right there once sanctified they are then perfected FOREVER, I dont know how you can miss it..

I dont believe you really answered my question directly either let me restate it, Id love to know how you contend with these realities of the possibility to lose your salvation..

1) ...what kind of God would be so cruel to offer you salvation, fully give it to you and then knowing full well at some point in the future would end up doing whatever Sin you think can separate you from God, and allow that person to arrive at that point?
2) Why wouldnt God save them and then take them home before they "sinned their salvation away"?
3) How can you explain this about a God who gives salvation?

I think you would be wrong about that...Hebrews 10:26 points that out...if you willingly go on sinning, I think its a process and not a one time deal, but it is a possibility for believers. And I say believers because the verse says that if we go on sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth...these are believers.

Again I disagree concerning believers, but you still seemed to ignore the question brought about in context of that verse. Lets just for the moment assume it was believers, how then do you reconcile believers losing salvation due to sin and Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Again it seems you refused to answer the questions I posed to you concerning this aspect of the conversation, I will restate them again, would you be able to answer? I would love to understand how you reconcile these passages and questions!

1) What Sin is it that God isnt forgetting that will lead us to lose our Salvation?
2) How on earth is it possible for me to out Sin my Salvation, if God knew every Sin before hand, put it all on Christ, who then sanctified and perfected me in the site of the Father and God chose to forget ALL OF THEM?

Only believers have the truth.

I disagree, only believers accept and have Faith in the truth, the truth is offered to every single human in all of existence. Thats the difference between believers and non believers, one accepts the truth the other is fully offered it and then rejects it..

Yes, and....that's what we need to do, draw near to God in faith...but if we don't then we will see destruction.

Is Faith of yourself or a Gift? Is not the Faith you have the moment you believe not enough to allow salvation?

That's why we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith...be good Bereans...but its hard when you don't even want to see that we can fall away.

So you mention 2 Corth 13:5, and you think that its hard to follow this if one believes they cant lose salvation? This is a call for people to see if they are REALLY BELIEVERS, not once a believer then fell away from the Faith. What is the context of this verse Lisa? The Corinthians were doubting Pauls legitimacy to speak to them concerning the subjects he was calling them out on.

2 Corth 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me

And since they were doubting that Christ was in him speaking to them he turns the table on them saying:

2 Corth 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

In context he is saying if you are going to ask of me if I have Christ I tell you examine yourselves to see that you have Christ. This has nothing to do with losing salvation and everything with are you truly saved. Which supports my interpretation more than yours. And what is the next thing he tells them?

2 Corth 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

He doesnt believe that he nor they are reprobates, but that both of him and they have Christ within them...

I believe one ought to examine themselves daily, are we really living up to what we profess to believe? If we say we believe in Christ but bare no fruit ever at all, are we really in Him? If not then we ought to repent and come to Christ and be saved. However if your ideology is correct and we can lose salvation and that is what this verse is about, then what is the point because if we come to examine ourselves that we once believed and now we dont, well then the only assurance we can have is that we are destined to Hell, because there is ZERO possibilities for those who lose salvation to ever get it back...

I think of the Israelites who were mightily taken out of Egypt with great signs and wonders, and the moment Moses wandered off....what were they doing? Golden calf....anyone?

At what point do you believe that the generation that was lead out of Egypt had Faith? They saw the truth but did they ever have Faith ever? I say not, look at what they say literally as soon as they were lead out of captivity...

Ex 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?
12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.

And that was a continued thing for them, all of them save 2 people and what 2 people was it that made it into the promise land and why did they make it into the promise land? Why didnt that generation that was lead out of Egypt allowed into the Promise Land?

Number 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

I look at them and say they were never saved, they never once had belief or faith they continually rejected God even tho they were direct witnesses to His miracles and power!!! I do not believe this helps your point at all but goes on to show yet again that people can on the outside look as tho they are believers but in reality they are unbelievers, they are not saved and they have no Faith...

Daciple · Apr 27, 2017

Well, ya, Paul is trying to encourage them not to fall away. That he thinks they won't, not that he knows they won't. Deceivers had gone into the churches even at that time...they were hoping people didn't fall away.

Again I believe its plain to see that he knows they are not going to fall away, because they have the signs that accompany salvation, however you seemed to miss my direct questions concerning this passage to you, let me restate it hopefully you can answer them because as before I want to know how you can reconcile your beliefs with Pauls words...

1) He goes on to say to keep the full assurance of hope, how can one be assured of anything if they can lose salvation?

I don't think they will be in heaven.

Wow, really? You dont think they repented for their sins ever? You really dont think the Blood of Jesus will be applied to Adam or Eve?

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

I personally am sure that Adam and Eve will have the Blood applied, that they repented and that they had Faith that God would restore them back to fellowship. Who taught Able about God? I believe that Able was taught of Faith unto Righteousness from Adam and Eve...

I don't know that my works are in fear...there is a fear of saying no to God because lets face it, you really can't say no can you? And be in the faith?

Humm are you telling me that you follow God 100% of the time Lisa? If not arent you telling God no? And if you have told God no, then are you now going to admit that you are not in the Faith and by that I believe you mean saved?

If I am going to be honest, I probably tell God no much more than I tell Him yes, Idk why I do this, its a battle everyday against my flesh and self and submitting to Gods will. I also believe that if you and every other Christian is honest they would have to say the same thing. Indeed there is a fear for not following the will of God, but I do not fear loss of Salvation. If I could have lost it I already would have and I feel exactly the same about you...

But again you seemed to have side stepped the direct question posed to you, would you be able to answer it directly please?

How you can be saved by grace thru faith but not think working to keep salvation isnt a works based salvation ideology?

You are literally working yourself into heaven, its dependent upon yourself not God to get you into Heaven. As I told another gentleman I believe that those who hold to this view are likened to the Pharisses in Gods temple when they stand before the Lord. Look Lord at my works I did so that I can stand here in Heaven now! Thank goodness Im not like those other people that dont have these works to show you!! Verse the publican who cries out I am a sinner God forgive me!! According to the Word who is justified? Not the man pointing to his own works...

And that is where my fear for those who hold this ideology manifest, are you turning the Free gift of God that comes by grace thru faith into a works based salvation? In my view indeed you are and I can assure you that every single work you do is a filthy rag before a great and mighty and perfect Lord!! The only place it is possible to work yourself into is Hell...

As for the mention of working out our salvation, you misunderstand that verse:

which is to be understood not in such a sense as though men could obtain and procure for themselves spiritual and eternal salvation by their own works and doings; for such a sense is contrary to the Scriptures, which deny any part of salvation, as election, justification, and calling, and the whole of it to be of works, but ascribe it to the free grace of God; and is also repugnant to the perfections of God, as his wisdom, grace, and righteousness; for where are the wisdom and love of God, in forming a scheme of salvation, and sending his Son to effect it, and after all it is left to men to work it out for themselves? and where is the justice of God in admitting of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one, which must be the case, if salvation is obtained by men's works? for these are imperfect, even the best of them; and is another reason against this sense of the passage; and were they perfect, they could not be meritorious of salvation, for the requisites of merits are wanting in them. Moreover, was salvation to be obtained by the works of men, these consequences would follow; the death of Christ would be in vain, boasting would be encouraged in men, they would have whereof to glory, and their obligations to obedience taken from the love of God, and redemption by Christ, would be weakened and destroyed: add to all this, that the Scriptures assure us, that salvation is alone by Christ; and that it is already finished by him, and not to be wrought out now by him, or any other; and that such is the weakness and impotence of men, even of believers, to whom this exhortation is directed, that it is impossible for them ever to affect it; therefore, whatever sense these words have, we may be sure that this can never possibly be the sense of them. The words may be rendered, "work about your salvation"; employ yourselves in things which accompany salvation, and to be performed by all those that expect it, though not to be expected for the performance of them; such as hearing of the word, submission to Gospel ordinances, and a discharge of every branch of moral, spiritual, and evangelical obedience for which the apostle before commends them, and now exhorts them to continue in; to go on in a course of cheerful obedience to the close of their days, believing in Christ, obeying his Gospel, attending constantly to his word and ordinances, and discharging every duty in faith and fear, until at last they should receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls: agreeably the Syriac version renders the words, (Nwkyyxd anxlwp wxwlp) , "do the work", or "business of your lives"; the work you are to do in your generation, which God has prescribed and directed you to, which the grace of God teaches, and the love of Christ constrains to. Do all that "with fear and trembling"; not with a slavish fear of hell and damnation, or lest they should fall away, or finally miscarry of heaven and happiness; since this would be a distrust of the power and faithfulness of God, and so criminal in them; nor is it reasonable to suppose, that the apostle would exhort to such a fear, when he himself was so confidently assured, that the good work begun in them would be performed; and besides, the exhortation would be very oddly formed, if this was the sense, "work out your salvation with fear" of damnation: but this fear and trembling spoken of, is such as is consistent with the highest acts of faith, trust, confidence, and joy, and is opposed to pride and vain glory; see ( Psalms 2:11 ) ( 115:11 ) ( Romans 11:20 ) ; and intends modesty and humility, which is what the apostle is pressing for throughout the whole context; and here urges to a cheerful and constant obedience to Christ, with all humility of soul, without dependence on it, or vain glorying in it, but ascribing it wholly to the grace of God, for the following reason

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/philippians-2-12.html

Daciple · Apr 27, 2017

Its almost like you're blaming me for what God said. He said it, I didn't. He's the one that said explicitly that in the end times some will fall away from the faith, not sure why I'm the bad guy here for stating the obvious? Well, ya, you've got to keep that up all your life...obedience to God, trust, faith...all of it. It's a daily thing. Sin is crouching and waiting for us...and we have to be alert. There is a reason God warns us so much don't ya think?

Again I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about how we interpret falling away from the Faith, I see it as lukewarm so called Christians, who never had Faith, that go to Church maybe 2 times a year, that never read or study their Bibles, that never had any change in their life and live exactly like the world with no convictions of their sin or any desire to repent. The Church today is filled to the brims with people who say they believe but dont, and when the Tribulations come it is then that you will see them all fall away, why? Because like the generation lead out of Egypt they do not have True Saving Faith. Paul tells us all about them..

Titus 2:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

And again what I keep seeing is that you believe the things necessary for Salvation, obedience to God, trust, faith ect come from you. Do you think your obedience is of yourself? Do you think your Faith is of yourself? Do you think your belief is of yourself? If so it is you who is getting yourself into Heaven by your works as opposed to Christ...

And I do think there is a reason why we are warned about these things continually, for those who have yet to believe its to warn them of their destination if they refuse to repent and come to Christ. For those who believe it is to warn them of the repercussions we face in this life now due to Sin and the loss of reward we lose in Heaven.

Here is what happens to our Good Works in Christ, and what does Paul say concerning those who are saved and all of their works?

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Our Works will be manifested, Good Works and Bad Works (aka Sin) and those Works that were built upon Christ will result in reward, but those that arent, they shall be burnt, but He Himself shall be saved!! Works dont keep or get one into Heaven, they all get burnt up, but those who have Salvation keep it even if they have Bad Works...

I have assurance that I am abiding in Christ right now,

How? Why?

I must always be striving to run with endurance this race, because there is no guarantee that without it I will get to the end.

Man that sucks for you, I am sure glad I dont have to rely on myself to get myself to the finish line, but all I need to do is have Faith in Christ that the Good Work He started HE not me but HE WILL FINISH..

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You cant believe this promise really, because you arent sure that Christ WILL perform the Good Work until His Return, I however take on Faith that He WILL perform the Good Work He started however long it takes until He Returns!! How thankful am I, what a Promise to abide in, my God will never leave me, He will have Faith even when I am Faithless, that He will keep me sealed until the day of Redemption!! All praise to Christ for He is not only able to Save but to Keep!!!

Todd · Apr 27, 2017

Scott Christopher Shuman said:
What if Peter, the apostle called to deal with the Hebrews, wrote it?

Paul was called to the gentiles.

Peter received the call to preach to Gentiles also. Even Paul said there is no Jew or gentile in Christ so why should that have bearing on anything? But Peter didn't write Hebrews, so I'm not sure what your point is...
I can't prove it, but my best guess is that a disciple of Paul wrote Hebrews possibly in an attempt to bridge the gap between followers of Paul and followers of the way.

Todd · Apr 27, 2017

Lisa said:
You get 2 Peter 3:15 wrong every time...

LOL.... Okay Lisa you convinced me with that eloquent explanation. (Please enlighten me how I have gotten it wrong)

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

Todd said:
LOL.... Okay Lisa you convinced me with that eloquent explanation. (Please enlighten me how I have gotten it wrong)

That's ok, I and many others before me have explained to you where you are wrong and you always say we are wrong...

Todd · Apr 27, 2017

Lisa said:
That's ok, I and many others before me have explained to you where you are wrong and you always say we are wrong...

Actually no one has ever taken my point by point explanation and showed me where my analysis is incorrect or flawed. The only thing anyone has offered is Church tradition....

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

Todd said:
Actually no one has ever taken my point by point explanation and showed me where my analysis is incorrect or flawed. The only thing anyone has offered is Church tradition....

People have, I've read it, but we can't look back since there is nothing to look back to....

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

@Daciple
I think it's going to be hard to answer all your questions honestly, because I feel like I already answered many of them though you feel I didn't. I was up over an hour last night answering....

Anyway...I mentioned the Israelites because you said you didn't see how anyone could fall away, and if you think about it, the Israelites had a really hard time staying faithful. I guess my point is...it's hard for people to stay faithful. Though we have the Helper...He is the Helper not the keeper...

I don't read the Bible and think wow this all points to once saved, always saved because I see too many if's...if you do such and such then....that to me doesn't equate to always saved that to me equates to some work involved in faithfulness on my part. I think of the letters to the churches in revelation where at the end of them it has some version of He who overcomes will get such and such. I know I'm being a little vague here...but I want to give the gist of the verse. What must we do to overcome? Why do we have to overcome anything if we are always saved and can't lose it. And that doesn't go with scripture anyway where in 1 Timothy it blatantly says some will fall away from the faith. It's blatant....that's what the verse says. Explicitly, the Spirit explicitly says some will fall away from the faith. To me there is no guarantee then.

You point out God says forever, yes He does but the forever is for what God did, that's forever, and it's only forever to them that are sanctified. That doesn't say to me that someone is going to be forever sanctified, I see it as if you are sanctified then it's forever.

You say why would God be so cruel to offer salvation and then take it away. But the offer of salvation is conditional too isn't it? If you believe in Jesus then... God outlines that once your saved then you can't be a willful sinner, He warns us that there will be deceivers deceiving people. Why would He do this unless there is a way for people to fall away and lose salvation? Hebrews 10:26-talking about what happens when you believer but fall away. That's why we must be good bereans and check to make sure we are in the faith. Otherwise my point is why would that even matter? If you are once saved always saved, won't matter if you sin and sin and sin because you have the guarantee. You can say but no that's not it but yes that's exactly it. Why listen to God, why follow Him, you're saved nothing can reverse it so do what you want you're in! We always say that's not true that you can sin and sin and sin but if you can't ever lose it why would it matter if you do? Answer, it wouldn't matter at all then.

I did answer, it's not one sin that does it, it's a series of you will of sinning. It's saying that you are unwilling to continue being changed, it's your unwillingness to let God have His way in your life and you hold on to the sin. It's a hardening of your heart instead of opening it. That's what I think anyway because the verse doesn't expound further then a willingness to sin. That to me says mind set. When you set your mind to it...I don't know, but I think it's the process of instead of moving closer to God, with willfull sin you are moving away. Sin does separate us from God so if you are willingly sinning you are willingly moving away from God.

I think I may be getting close to the limit...

Lisa · Apr 27, 2017

@Daciple
What are people hoping for? The full assurance, it's not a given, why hope for something that's assured?

Well, I don't believe that everyone in the Bible will be in heaven...
More to the point believers aren't all in the family...Cain had the same parents...look at him. Do you think Cain will be in heaven? From the evidence I can gather Adam and Eve never apologized for any wrong doing. Never even admitted wrong-unless they repented and it wasn't recorded then I don't see how they would be.

I don't think I'm doing any works to be saved but I am trying very hard to be faithful, to be obedient. I have this sign on my table thy says Trust in the Lord. When I first got it I said I will try and trust you Lord. After awhile I got the impression that this was not good enough and I needed to do what that verse said and trust. So then my responses became I trust you Lord. However what would happen if I kept at I'll try to trust you Lord...now is it up to me to be willing to trust the Lord or not? God isn't going to force me to trust Him but wants my agreement. Losing your salvation is about not being agreeable, don't you think? Again, I don't know the timetable but to me it doesn't seem to be a one time deal but an over time deal where you arent being agreeable which is sin isn't it? God doesn't remove sin from us. Makes me think of Paul saying he does what he doesn't want to do, we must master sin, but we only do that when we are agreeing with God. It's being in the right relationship with God, the right relationship is being agreeable.

“He who does not love Me does not keep My words" Is it I who has to keep His words? Just wondering.

Lukewarm Christians who never had the faith? Then they aren't Christians if they never had the faith...the verse says some will fall from the faith. Which means they had the faith, the believe.

My assurance right now is that I'm abiding in Him...I believe I'm on that narrow path.

Anyway, sorry, I have an appointment this morning and if I don't get moving I'll be late for it. I'm pretty sure I didn't answer what you really wanted but there were so many questions....

Can A Christian Lose Salvation?

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